Postmillennialism and Jonathan Edwards / Joe Rigney & Doug Wilson

Bethlehem College and Seminary President Joe Rigney and Pastor Doug Wilson sit down to discuss Jonathan Edwards eschatology (Postmillennialism) through his sermon, God's End in Creation.
KZbin Playlist of all 7 topics: • Playlist

[@jakeabbatacola5092]

Hats off to the interviewer. His questions and understanding of the topic were absolutely phenomenal.

[@mattorgan911]

I am post mil. Thank you Doug. We are called to build the Kingdom. Get out there an fearlessly preach the gospel!

[@jessiebland7644]

PostMil doctrine is the most encouraging teaching to me.

[@ryangallmeier6647]

It's not biblical, though. "Encouragement" based on falsehoods isn't true encouragement at all.

[@jessiebland7644]

@@ryangallmeier6647 that’s the popular opinion of today, but this too shall pass. Bruce Gore gives The best exposition of the book of Revelation that I’ve heard.

[@briancasey4917]

Since I became post millennial, rather than always feeling pressured to convert, convert, convert not knowing if there was any real fruit, I have devoted my missional work to discipling relationships, in this there is good fruit and can be seen. That is what the Apostles did and it works to build disciplined believers rather than feel good converts that are mostly fickle.

[@joshhigdon4951]

Being a postmillenial calvinist, I know I dont have the power to convert. But the gospel does and I can proclaim it knowing that it's effects lie upon God not me, and as long as I am faithful, I will be shown fruit.

[@oracleoftroy]

@@gusshredney1491 The difference in mindset is important. Many just try to get people to 'convert' but don't actually disciple them. Instead they abandon them in the same ditch of sin they found them in. But the Bible doesn't speak of conversion as some one time thing, it speaks of discipline and disciplining people in a community. If you aren't doing that, you aren't converting them either.

[@GTWAL]

Not only is the postmillenial view biblical and rooted in preaching the word and showing people the word. But I believe that Christians who are regenerated ought to have that outlook on the world as we chase the kingdom of God. Im 19 years old and it's not a common view within my church.

[@AllforOne_OneforAll1689]

Postmil is not supported by the scripture

[@JimL2883]

I understand Postmil as stepping into a creek and the water covers your toes. Then you walk farther down the creek and it covers your ankles. Farther down and the water covers your knees, then waist and chest. Eventually the water is over your head and the knowledge of the Lord covers the earth as the waters cover the seas.

[@jessiebland7644]

Ezekiel!!!! Yes sir

[@blakesorie1]

The question on optimism was incredibly helpful. Thank you, brothers, for this.

[@ibperson7765]

Optimillenial and Pesimillenial 🙂🤣

[@scatoutdebutter]

"friends don't let friends imminentize their eschaton!" .... (has nothing to do with this video, but that quip has been bouncing in my head since I heard Pastor Wilson say it a few weeks ago. I appreciate Doug Wilson's balanced treatment of the different views.

[@kiebelemily]

To the Lord, 1,000 years is a day and a day is a 1,000 years! Only God can count the apples in a seed.

[@jkimnach8701]

Some of you might know my late father, Prof. Wilson Kimnach, who was the head of Yale Edwards Edition. He also specialized in deciphering Edward's handwriting.

[@JoWilliams-ud4eu]

Cool

[@freddieconner-ey2xs]

Awesome video

[@russedav5]

I wish I could remember where I heard this description, but someone once said that God himself leads the Christian straight and unerringly to heaven (strait (=close, not broad, Matt 7) is the gate and narrow the way and few find it), but the fallen world and even the remaining old nature is cyclical. Abiding in Christ and keeping our eyes on him by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone enables the straight and strait walk that overcomes the world. John 16:33 These things have I spoken to you that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye have tribulation; but be of good courage: I have overcome the world. 1John 4:4 Ye are of God, children, and have overcome them, because greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. 1John 5:4-5 For all that has been begotten of God gets the victory over the world; and this is the victory which has gotten the victory over the world, our faith. 5 Who is he that gets the victory over the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

[@ryangallmeier6647]

Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758), was an Historicist, who utilized the day=year principle for the "1,260 days/42 months/'time, times, half a time'" prophecy, given 7x in Scripture. Notice what Edwards wrote concerning the 1,260 YEARS of the reign of Antichrist, for example: "It is certain that the twelve hundred and sixty days, or YEARS, which are so often in Scripture mentioned as the time of the continuance of Antichrist’s reign, did not commence before the year of Christ four hundred and seventy-nine". Edwards rightly said that the 1,260 YEARS did not begin until AFTER THE FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE! In other words, Edwards was NOT a Preterist, nor a Futurist. He was a "great-grandson" of the Reformation of the 16th century. Questions? Let me know. *Soli Deo Gloria*

[@Tractorman-xj4gt]

Question: When we read scripture, is the return of Jesus described as a peaceful event where Jesus is welcomed back to Earth to conduct the Final Judgment and usher in the eternal state by a mostly "Christianized" world, or do we read of the return of Jesus as a violent and bloody event where the Son of God goes to war against His enemies and includes the rescue of Israel (Zech 12-14, Rev 19) ??

[@mikebrines5708]

Postmil is increasingly less able to be defended as we witness the news on CNN and Fox every day as the Globalists stand poised to establish the Antichrist's Worldwide state enforced by an ESG social credit mark of the beast economic system. The idea that the Church (really, which church?) is going to conquer the Earth for Jesus is not Biblical (as you've pointed out), nor does it match the evidence before our very eyes.

[@oracleoftroy]

@@mikebrines5708 Yeah, globalist news media is boldly proclaiming their victory, but I can't help but see that they are scrambling and desperately trying to retain what power they still have. I don't think they'd be this open about it if they didn't have to be, but they keep losing ground.

[@LateN2904]

Im not disagreeing with the validity of your question. But for instance, say the world is 75% Christian (crazy hypothetical), the majority of the world would receive Christ yet His coming would be fearful and awe-inspiring. Also the 25% would face eternal damnation. You could say, that a quarter of the world facing damnation would still be violent and not peaceful. My point is, it’s all about context. We don’t know how the end will come but we do know that Christ will return. I don’t think your question is the trump card you play it as.

[@beausutton6639]

What is this from? Would like to see all the lectures

[@libbydaddy8610]

James White is finally with you. (Didn't know if he was or wasn't at the time this vid made but if I'd had to guess, I'd have said he was post millenialist for some reason).

[@joeradler]

1. Isn't Doug conflating the idea that life is getting easier on earth with the idea that the Lordship of Christ is the cause of the greater ease? I thought Post-Millenialism meant that life gets better BECAUSE of Jesus' reign, not simply because man uses his God-given gifts amd develops technology that helps himself. 2. Optimism vs Pessimism? Can't one be optimistic about this world getting better AND another be optimistic about the scrapping of the old junker and entry into a beautiful new world? Two optimistic approaches, just different anticipated ends. 3. By what measure is the modern church advancing -- numerically or spiritually -- (especially in the west) now more than it did in previous 500/1000/1500 year chunks? What is the evidence of that? Seems about even/steady to me, comparatively. 4. Just because life is getting easier (in some cultures) doesn't mean men are becoming less wicked. Indeed, people in easy cultures are falling away from the Lord into secularism in droves. And the 20th century has seen technological advancements used to kill and mame more humans than any time in prior history.

[@steffanrhoads1870]

They were fulfilling the commission; we were tickled by the false teaching of Darbyism and didn’t. The combination of dispensationalism and premillennialism are false teachings that would make Satan jealous!

[@kiganfive]

Joe’s last question on the NT view of sanctification through suffering needs a more robust answer if Postmill ever expects to be taken seriously at this point. One of you all should take up the challenge and publish something more meaningful on it.

[@aleczamora6993]

What are some great books on postmillenialism?

[@jeremiahknoop5089]

@@aleczamora6993 I just finished reading "Postmillennialism Made Easy" by Kenneth Gentry, Jr. and found it really helpful.

[@jpfiero]

I haven't heard any postmillenials teach that suffering is bad, I would believe that we should be searching out suffering for the gospel. First we need to build a solid Christian society as a home base then we send missionaries by the thousands. We have plenty of ways to suffer close to home but we generally avoid them.

[@connors8032]

I agree, still looking for an answer to where persecution fits into the long term postmil outlook.

[@whatistruth2810]

Persecution will continue but grow more rare until the millennium comes. Traditional Protestant postmillenialism like I believe and also Johnathan Edwards as well as other great preachers like John Wesley differs from the Postmillenialism of Pastor Doug and many modern Postmillenialsits. The modern view is more like “positive amillenialism” because they see the church age as the millennium whereas traditional historic postmil believes that the millennium is a distinct period at the end of human history either a literal 1000 years or a very long time. This time is after the fall of Antichrist ( papacy) and the conversion of the Jews as Paul prophecied in Romans 11, as well as the fullness of the gentiles coming into the kingdom.

[@amyclutter7259]

My amil sister contends that amil is more optimistic than postmil because it means Jesus is coming sooner.

[@davidcollins3589]

People say...”The church only grows under persecution.” REALLY? That is NOT a verse! Not one verse in the Bible says that! The church only grows when there is Repentance-Baptism-and Faith. (The whole book of ACTS)

[@lawrencestanley8989]

In Matthew 19:28, 25:31, Jesus says that He will assume His glorious Davidic throne at the time of His second coming. While it is true that all authority has been given to Jesus in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18), and it is true that Jesus has indeed sat down at the right hand of God, having finished His work of making purification of sins for His people as promised for His first advent (Hebrews 1:3), this is not His Davidic throne rule, this is Jesus fulfilling His role as intercessor, where He forever makes intercession for them with the Father (Hebrews 7:25). Jesus will remain seated at the right hand of the Father until the Father makes the enemies of the Son a footstool for His feet (Psalm 110:1), and until He has done so, it is the Father who reigns (1 Corinthians 15:23-28). This time of judgment takes place after the seventh trumpet of the tribulation, and it is at this time that “the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ,” it is only then that Jesus first begins to reign (Revelation 11:15-19), when all things are subjected to Him (1 Corinthians 15:28), and we then see His coronation as King in Revelation 19. This will fulfil the vision of Daniel 7:13-14 where He receives universal authority from the Ancient of Days. Note that in Daniel 7:9, the thrones are not even set up until the time of judgment (cf. Revelation 20:4). This is very significant. Jesus explicitly ties His Davidic throne reign with His second coming to earth and not before. This shows that Jesus’ kingdom is future from our standpoint. The kingdom of God is present wherever Christ is (cf. Luke 17:20-21), therefore the kingdom comes when Jesus comes again; while the kingdom of God was incomplete at His first advent since many rejected Him then, after His second advent when He is given an everlasting dominion, glory, and a kingdom, all the peoples, nations, and men of every language will serve Him (cf. Daniel 7:14), and this kingdom of God can only be seen by those who are born again (John 3:3) who will receive and possess the kingdom of God at this time (Daniel 7:18). This truth makes amillennialism and postmillennialism impossible since these positions assert that Jesus is now reigning from the Davidic throne in His millennial kingdom in this age. Incidentally, the “regeneration” spoken of in Matthew 19:28 refers to the “new heavens and new earth” of the Messianic age (Isaiah 65:17, 2 Peter 3:13), the renewal of the cosmos; the glorification of creation (Romans 8:19-23); the eschatological restoration of all things (Acts 3:21). So, because Jesus has not yet returned in glory with all of His angels, because there has not yet been a glorification of the creation, Jesus’ Davidic Kingdom rule is yet future, therefore any views that see Christ's Davidic reign as a present reality are necessarily false, and any attempt to maintain those views require one to either spiritualize or allegorize the text rather than to understand the plain meaning of the text.

[@jk-sc4ri]

Although today is an easier way to live, it doesn't mean that it is easier to bring you to Christ. It is obviously more difficult and scripture points to that. Wilson gave an example of how it is easier to fix a broken tooth but yet because that tooth is fixed he is now addicted to pharmaceutical drugs. The shift of one pain has now been shifted to another. It is just the way this world works and man can't save himself or stop himself from causing it. The world today is the same as it was before. Also, the spreading of God's Word was done exceptionally well without the technology of today. Granted this video was 10 years ago, but look around. Do you not see how easily man is deceived by the enemy? He caused people across the entire world to put a diaper on their faces and to stay away from each at death's length (6 feet). Do you think all this luxury in the world has brought the world closer to God? I'd argue 500 years ago that the ratio of believers to nonbelievers was higher than it is today.

[@jimdee9801]

We had plazma screens 9 years ago eh

[@snaphaan5049]

I believe in a return to the original plan God had for creation but I do not beleive in the way many Christians interpret dominion over the earth. If we were in a relationship with God as Adam and Eve was or Jesus then why would we need docters, helicopters, electronics or any other modern invention? If Jesus could walk on water, heal the blind, cure sickness and calm a storm then maybe we were suposed to use our relationship with God to take care of the earth though miracles. Also, what about clothing? It's propably the most familiar sign of our fallen state than anything. How is that going to change? Will we systematically become nudists as we gain rigteousness before God?

[@laurenwinston2837]

I actually enjoy Doug Wilson’s content on his app and on KZbin but after listening recent views on his eschatology I am left perplexed by him. Are we not called to study and follow Gods word. I just don’t see how his view is supported in the word.

[@rileymasters3510]

It is in Gods word. What’s not in Gods word is the modern traditions that are read into the text today where in the end you get the left behind series.

[@mattorgan911]

Look up apologia studios and then look up Bahnsen U, book of revelation. Post mils use scripture to interpret scripture. This is not new thinking. The puritans were post mil.

[@Zanroff]

This is a better video to explain how his views are supported by the word. I'm convinced. kzbin.info/www/bejne/apywqX6nisydnbc

[@mikebrines5708]

@@rileymasters3510 Because pretrib is wrong does not mean one has to endorse postmillenialism. Try reading Jesus is Only Coming Twice.

[@ruralmillennial4354]

Views changed?

[@AlexStock187]

If the Kingdom of God looks like drinking cold beers, sitting on La-Z-Boys, and watching flat screen TVs, I must have seriously misunderstood the Gospels…

[@NossMans]

What if you’re a optimistic, post-wrath rapture, Mid-Millennialist? It’s my new position I just made today 😂

[@peterheroux8239]

I find it strange that some of his arguments for post mil are based on interpretation of a dental visit 100 years ago to a now, pain free dental appointment and base your eschatology on that instead of battling the the Book of Revelation re: the end times?! Hummm?

[@Zanroff]

It's just an illustration about how suffering is relative. Even if suffering lessens as time progresses and technology improves, it never ceases to exist all together. Family and friends still die. He was answering a specific criticism.

[@johndarwin4705]

I'm the 666th like

[@libbydaddy8610]

This guy sounds just like Paul Reiser. Joe, not Doug.

[@joemajor1156]

Rigney hit it out of the park with his Apostolic suffering connected to Paul. Doug then fumbled it missing the Isaiah 65 allusion. Doug can't see he is in the Post Millennial "now". Preterism shows the optimistic position Doug was so well defending. Transgenerational Christianity is what needs to be taught OUTLOUD. That is the mission which is optimistic. Futurists like Doug keeps looking for God to manipulate the future. God gave the future to the Christians to work in their lives and those who come after. From John the Immerser, through the Lord, through His Prophets and Apostles to Israel, God completed the end of the ministry of Sin and Death. Destroying the false Israel in AD70, He brought forth the body and spiritual system we call Christianity. It really is a real international New Israel without the established stumbling block idol of the Temple Cult. Christians really should depart from institutional buildings. In 5 years or less those buildings will be government owned. Government sanctioned churches will most likely be there. Not well populated I would guess. The perturbation of the current time will last a few years and then a mighty overhaul. I like Doug's affable approach even when he knows he is wrong. Pet peeve, institutional sprinkling claiming it is baptism is hero worship not exegesis. Some Creedal assumptions become the doctrines of man. Jesus was baptized. Immersed not sprinkled. No way to gymnastics your way into joining Baptism immersion into rhantizo sprinkling. In Hebrews 9 and 10 sprinkling is alluding to a cleansing. Nothing about baptism as seen in the New Testament. So Doug in his affable manner never comes to a scriptural teaching on baptism. What is amazing to me he says if you are using grape juice you are not scriptural in observing the Lord's Supper. He strikes me as trying to be a bit of a gadfly and not a Christian in that territory and rebellious to the symbolic and literal Word of God on Immersion verses sprinkling. His problem not mine. Keep progressing Doug.

[@epicoutdoor5795]

Brother, you should think broader, deeper and longer than just the USA in your ideas. Remember, your beautiful country represents only a drop in the ocean of Christ's Bride. How is the "government to own" the church? That is a mere regional dispute. Love from South Africa.

[@floydparker7772]

@@epicoutdoor5795 You are correct, sir, that the government cannot own the church. I believe what he was referring to was the building in which the church meets. At some point, the church in America (and elsewhere) may have to find other places to meet than traditional church buildings because of government interference with biblical doctrine (e.g. truth designated as hate speech; requirements to perform certain kinds of marriages on the premises or face the loss of tax exempt status). The church will survive; where it meets may change.

[@ruralmillennial4354]

Here in America just about every “church,” as in the congregations that meet in buildings who claim to be part of the body of Christ, have a 501c3 tax exemption which limits what can be done and said from the pulpit. From my understanding when Trump was in office he “did away” with the Johnson amendment, and that’s why so many “Christians” who supported him claimed that he was doing so much for the church. But they completely missed the mark by thinking that what the church can and can’t do is something that’s regulated by a man in office. The fact is that wether free or not, our freedom to worship and glorify God is forevermore! I bring that up because ... in this very manner I do think that the “government,” here and around the world has been given the power by “believers” to “take control.” People need to, as you said, think more broadly and consider everything so as not to fall in to the trap of becoming enslaved to this world and it’s deception.

[@AnHebrewChild]

Joe Major - just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your comment. And I completely understand what you mean by "government owning the church" -- obviously by that you don't intend (as some would seem to construe it) the actual church of Jesus ie the assembly of saints in & from all nations, but rather the 501c3 buildings and hierarchical structure of persons attendant thereto. There are creedal assumptions which are right, but maybe just as many which are merely man's traditions. JESUS had quite a word to speak on that front. _Making the word of God of none effect through your traditions which ye have delivered (....) And he said unto them, full well ye reject the commandment of God that ye may keep your own tradition._ Be blessed / cheers

[@keithwilson6060]

Doug is actually just as myopic as those premillennialists he accuses of error in their eschatology. What makes him think that our current luxuries and comforts are a presumed permanent right of this age? We are on the precipice of another Bronze Age. We in Texas just experienced a foretaste of how close we are to this precipice last February during an unprecedented cold snap and winter storm. I was without power or phone service for two days. Many others were without for up to a week. Limited communication and no warmth other than what you could generated from the modern notion of burning fuel, namely WOOD, which was suddenly sold out at all the stores. An EMP strike, which is just a matter of time, whether man-made or natural, would extend a service outage like this for months, if not years. The more we blindly rely on the technological comforts of this world, the more susceptible we are to catastrophic calamity when that net of safely and comfort is suddenly pulled away.

[@Alexkearney]

to use "I was without power or phone service for two days" as proof *against* postmillennialism is just further proof *for* it. The fact that that luxury is expected proves how blessed we are.

[@Zanroff]

It's call pruning the vine. Hard times will only increase the reach of the Church.

[@peterheroux8239]

Believing that things are getting better?? Has this guy read a newspaper lately? Unreal.

[@Zanroff]

Maybe instead of a newspaper, you should read history of the last 2000 years.

[@matthewhubbard7177]

11:55 this is what Christopher Hitchens called a celestial North Korea 🤣

[@TheVeryHelpfulNinja]

Still no scripture, no ability to point back in time to great tribulation, cannot say this was when the trumpets occurred here are the bowls, this is when the pit was opened up.............who were the 2 witnesses?

[@isaacmaue-tg7kl]

Many preterist and Postmil theologians have material covering all of those topics, even here on KZbin for free, including Doug. I’m sure he can’t fit it all into a 14 minute video :)

[@TheVeryHelpfulNinja]

@@isaacmaue-tg7klWhy do I need to go to a theologian? These things should be plainly obvious and be able to be pointed at in history - who were the 2 witnesses? 👍

[@TheVeryHelpfulNinja]

@@isaacmaue-tg7kl Unless of course it's all just allegory in which case it just breaks down into relative meaningless?

[@greengateacreshomestead4324]

True postmil was invented because is not biblical.

[@ryangallmeier6647]

And, please remember, my High Preterist friends, Jonathan Edwards was NOT A PRETERIST! He, like the Reformers who came before him, was an HISTORICIST! I agree with Edwards on Historicism; however wrong he was about the Millennium of Rev. 20.

[@scottcox6138]

You must dismiss the New Testament descriptions of the condition of the earth and mankind at the return of Christ or grossly spiritualize them to embrace this eschatology.

[@olddoc4430]

The Lord said things would get worse and worse until He comes. It has been getting worse since He left. Am I deaf and blind or are post millennialists submerged in a world of their own wish fulfillment? I love you dearly but this position is unfortunately incorrect. When He comes with trumpets the saved will likely be few and the damned will be vast and sorely surprised, unfortunately. Remember, “few are called”.

[@czuw2967]

@@sovereigngrace9723 If we base the “better” on modern life in North America or Western Europe, this argument makes some sense; however, when you look at the whole of humanity, the ancient atrocities of which you speak, still exist. In China, enemies of the state are arrested, tortured, and murdered during forced organ harvesting. For decades the CCP performed forced abortions due to the 1 child policy. In Africa several countries are in continual conflict. Women and children are stolen and placed into slavery. Sex trafficking exists on an extremely large scale. The amount of abuse in today’s modern world is immeasurable. We think it’s “better” because we refuse to look at it. The world is most certainly not getting better. It is getting darker every day. God has been pushed out of every facet of public life. Currently, the light is dim.

[@Zanroff]

@@czuw2967 But is the church bigger or smaller world wide? Losing ground doesn't mean losing the war.

[@mikebrines5708]

@@Zanroff We've gone in my lifetime from prayer in schools, and porn and abortion being illegal to CRT theory in schools, 85 million dead babies, and drag queen story hour. Even the West isn't Christian any more. From 1500 to now is one long losing streak. If we can lose for 500 years and it's just "losing ground" what would victory look like? Postmill basically says we can save the world, we don't need Jesus to come back and set things right. The Bible demonstrates we cannot. Satan will triumph unless Christ returns because Jesus saves. We do not.

[@oracleoftroy]

@@mikebrines5708 Postmil says God gave the church a mission and through the power of Christ it will complete it. Just because Christ has abandoned the world and left it to rot until he returns on your view doesn't mean we think Christ isn't actively involved in the mission he gave his Church. Like how I mischaracterized your view? I hope you see that as a mirror.

[@isaacmaue-tg7kl]

I would argue that the whole world is much better now after Christs ascension. Heck, professing Christ is the public square was illegal for the first few hundred years. Christians were tortured and killed for amusement by Roman emperors. Looking back, we see an over all incline in the body of Christ (though there have been some big dips). We started from a group of 12 men to now millions around the world. The gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church and Christ is King, now. It’s actually inconceivable to me that the Gospel would not be heard throughout the earth and that Christ would not win.

[@matthewmurphyrose4793]

Absolutely oblivious.

[@chaseflynn6956]

Would you like to extrapolate?

[@matthewmurphyrose4793]

Sure. Wilson is absolutely oblivious if he believes that we're in the millennium currently, which he does.

[@chaseflynn6956]

@@matthewmurphyrose4793 I haven't come across anything in his work that would suggest he believes this. However I have by no means consumed the full body of his work. It troubles me though that you are so quick to call this man who is a good steward of the faith completely oblivious yet you are infinitely low resolution in your explanation as to why.

[@matthewmurphyrose4793]

@@chaseflynn6956 you want me to write a book in the KZbin comment section?? What does him being a "good steward" have to do with anything? Wilson is teaching nonsense-and he is not above rebuke, period. Do you know what the Bible teaches about the millennium? Do you not see the problem with teaching the flock that we're in it now?

[@chaseflynn6956]

@@matthewmurphyrose4793 The millennium as represented in revelation is when Satan is no longer to bear influence on the nations of the earth. Being postmillenial doesn't mean you think we are in the millennium. It means you believe the second coming of christ will come after the millennium. Pastor Wilson has even said he believes the church is still in its infancy and has yet to complete its commission. Which clearly suggests he does not believe we are living in the millennium. So give me a quote or something, otherwise I'm not sold.

[@sazci3548]

hogwash.

[@stevebegarnie8790]

$ lbbh jjj