Potemkin's remains in Kherson and how Stalin became a commander - Simon Sebag Montefiore

Today I interviewed Simon Sebag-Montefiore, one of the best historians in the world and probably one of the most popular historians in the UK. He recently published a new book. We talked about why Kherson is important to Putin, how Potemkin became a key figure for him, different ways to look at the history of the world, differences of today's and Stalin’s Politburos, and what will happen after Putin's death.
00:00 Simon Sebag Montefiore is a British journalist and historian, his main focus has been history of Russia and the USSR. His books Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar, Monsters: History's Most Evil Men and Women, The Romanovs 1613-1918, became world bestsellers.
01:16 Recent news from Kherson. Why Kherson is important for Putin's perception of Novorossiya and Russian colonization. Potemkin founded Kherson as the first Russian city in 1778 on the conquered lands of Ukraine. Kherson got its name after the Greek city of Chersonesus and was supposed to become a kind of new capital. Potemkin was the largest minister, the largest politician, and statesman for the entire period of the Romanov dynasty.
04:10 The concept, which was called the "Greek project": was the capture of Byzantium and Constantinople, the south of Russia, more precisely, the south of Ukraine, which was to be made Russian. The concept was very different from that of Putin's ultra-nationalist authoritarian Russia. The difference with Putin's vision: they were Russian imperialists, and they brought serfdom to Ukraine. But they were also much more humane. The leaders of modern Russia are the descendants of the Bolsheviks, who were remarkably ruthless.
09:50 Why did Russian troops take Potemkin's remains? Report on Potemkin for Putin. Potemkin is a link between today and the past. There is no direct connection between Kievan Rus and Russia of the 17th and 18th centuries. Putin suddenly began to mention Potemkin - and with him Suvorov, Ushakov, who, in fact, served him. They took away the remains because this is how they represent a direct link between Russia and this territory.
14:40 The equal importance of different cultures and civilizations as a new approach to world history. The UK is very Anglocentric and just obsessed with it. In Russia, nationalism uses a distorted version of history. Showing history through the lens of families is a very elegant way to appreciate this diversity and start treating Africa and Asia the same way we treat Europe.
21:42 How to get rid of the empire in Russian history. In historical science, one can observe a slow but sure, gradually increasing pace of development of the trend toward the decolonization of British history. Russia is a very special phenomenon. Russia as an empire was created by Peter I. And after him, the concept of self-consciousness in Russia has always been associated with the empire entrusted with the sacred mission of expanding into the outside world. It is quite difficult to overcome this obsession, and the idea continues to exist in modern Russia in the 21st century. Sometimes it takes total humiliation to change your mind. Perhaps Ukraine will become such an experience for Russia.
26:48 The difference between Stalin and Putin: Stalin really controlled the life and death of his inner circle. There is no actual evidence that Putin is eliminating members of his elite. But people are desperately trying to demonstrate loyalty, blaming themselves and others, the atmosphere of the search for enemies of the people, the search for traitors. Shoigu reminds me of Voroshilov. Who is Beria and who is Khrushchev. There are several Berias now: Zolotov, Naryshkin or Patrushev. Khrushchev can be, for example, Medvedev. Now we are laughing at him. He is a joke. But it could be him.
31:00 Will everything change after Putin leaves? Putin's death is the only way out and the way to change the situation. Or a coup d'état. But the regime may not fall apart with Putin's death. Goida and guardsmen. Stability of authoritarian regimes.
36:41 The collapse of the Soviet Union continues to this day. The Russian Federation is the Russian Empire under a different name. As long as this state exists, there will be conflict between it and the new small states on its periphery until these states become strong enough. Putin is accelerating this process because Ukraine is going to become a truly powerful military state. Russia may collapse.
40:20 Famous figures in Russian history are bloody monsters. Peter the Great. Every tsar, secretary general and president of the Russian Federation dreamed of becoming a military leader. Stalin considered himself the greatest strategist, he learned to be one during the war. He suffered massive losses, no leader would have survived this. Putin in transit: can he become a commander or become like Adolf Hitler. Putin's invasion of Ukraine: is it the end or the beginning of history? "Normal disorder has returned"

[@veronikaserovainteriors5295]

I can’t understand why there are so few views? The interview is so interesting and deep! I would like to discuss it with someone, but i feel lonely as no one of my friends are capable of discussion on the topic. 😢

[@antiquityart]

There's a demand for those topics (see Tim Snyder/channels about the war) but the algorithm has to love you

[@TinaKGreene]

That's what I've been wondering, too. I guess what we can do is share Mikhail's videos with our friends. It's one of my favorite channels and I talk about it whenever there's someone interested. As well as Vlad Vexler's channels, which I highly recommend, same topic.

[@TinaKGreene]

@@jozefsvejk5828 That's not true, people are interested. One example is the fact that Stephen Colbert had the expert on Russia Julia Ioffe on his late night show a couple of times, which tells you this topic is not only for a handful of English-speaking Russians (like myself) but indeed has a much wider audience. Lots of videos on this war have hundreds of thousands of views, and this channel deserves it too.

[@mayl8316]

Because there is a second chanal with translation in Russian language.

[@Teak701]

Zygar gets great interviews from all the people he chooses to interview. I think he would have a much wider audience if he regularized his schedule, however. Perhaps his schedule is limited by his own decision to interview only the best people?

[@antiquityart]

The comparison of figures in Stalin's and Putin's inner circles was incredibly enlightening as it shows the working parallels and shortcomings of historical analysis, masterfully applied by Montefiore and well conducted by the interviewer. It's a reminder to use our concept and understanding of history very carefully to illuminate current political processes. It is a powerful instrument but deeply problematic at the same time as there is no such thing as repetition in history. The meaning of Russian imperialism and eastern European history as a whole is broadly speaking not well understood in the West. We're still stuck in a worldview that centers around our own fallen empires while ignoring the implications of those regarding the 'east' (hello, Germany). Every publication about this topic matters. Keep up your high quality talks with such well informed and important guests, you are representing the kind of intellectualism Russia (as well as the rest of the world) is in dire need right now and in the future!

[@aleksandravolkova4593]

unfortunately, all intellectuals have already left Russia and those who are now in fascist Russia do not need intellectualism and enlightenment

[@Morrisbros1234]

Excellent discussion gentleman. Thank you!

[@martinadane9360]

Zygar, you are realy brave man, I listinig to your interview with Amanpour cnn.God bless you and your partner Miichel.

[@konstantinkrotov]

That is one of the most fascinating interviews I’ve heard with historian. Thank you, Mikhail

[@allanfeatherstone3876]

Great interview Mikhail. What a wonderful guest,

[@judithslay]

I believe I could listen to SSM all day, such an intelligent man!

[@Youalleatmuffins]

Fascinating interview, with brilliant and insightful questions asked and allowing the guest the full space to answer unhurriedly 👍

[@GeorgeVorobiov]

This is a very important message, wish more people watched it

[@ilyaslukin2893]

very interesting talk, thank you!

[@TB-zd1gc]

Great interviews! Montefiore, Snyder, Applebaum… quality!

[@danpawl2433]

Your interviews are profoundly interesting. Inspiring guests. Congratulations!

[@armingleiner5292]

I am so happy youtube showed me this video. I just started reading a Catherine the Great biography a couple of weeks ago. Extremely interesting and still very relevant today!

[@haraldbjthunem4059]

Very, very important and interesting. Keep on M.Z your good work.

[@darklingeraeld-ridge7946]

Most interesting. He is a wonderful writer.

[@susannar8294]

Very knowledgeable conversation!!!! дякую for your work!!!

[@nataliacziganj6598]

Fascinating interview! However, as a linguist, I can't help but notice how differently Academia people and those outside Academia use the language. Simon Sebag carefully avoid labelling historic personalities with pejorative terms (apart from making self-evident statements, e.g. Stalin was a dictator/tyrant.) This is why I found it striking when I saw that the title of the last segment of the interview had something as biased and pejorative as "bloody monsters" in it. I assume it was the interviewer's decision to put it this way.

[@erichnk]

Only a historian could call 270+ rears of empire "short-lived"!. The comment on Stalin, after 1. enabling Hitler's rise with his decree that German communists refuse to ally with other leftists against Hitler; 2. opening the door to invasion of the USSR by decapitating the Red army leadership, 3. autocratically decreeing several disastrous campaigns- finally learning to listen to military commanders is sadly relevant. How many more will die before Putin learns, his monstrous hero and spiritual forebear(er)‘s lesson.

[@eugenehalak]

Thank you 🤝

[@alexandervladimirov3939]

Litvinenko, Shmygal, top managers of the government enterprises were killed or assassinated

[@marianmaslak]

Molotov - Lavrov comparison?

[@martingisser273]

I still don't understand "Goida"...

[@elenaanastasieva]

Ivan the Terrible (russian tsar famous for being cruel and killing his son) had special forces, guards, Oprichniki. They are famous for cruelty. Goida is an old (turk origin) word meaning something like "go, act, do it now'. Oprichinki were using it as a motto. hope that was helpful

[@alinakowalski2535]

Check "Day of the Oprichnik" by the Russian writer Vladimir Sorokin. It's a satire novel, but it looks more like reality

[@denisov9331]

I daresay that in more exact sence this word(I mean this "goida") meant something like "let us go and shed one's blood a bit". Those were very cruel guys all those oprichnics and they were exeedinly glad to cut some inosent men into piecies.

[@martingisser273]

Thanks for explaining! - The only hint I got from googleing "Гоида" (sp.?) gave me a Tajik expletive.

[@susanpower9265]

14/14 regard kiev and rus stuff as nonsense/shame shame shame /st olga and her grandson st vladimir all nonsense/video rurik to revolution makes clear st olga husband igor was founder of kiev as a capital after ladoga and novgorod were founded by rurik and varangians

[@bjornjensen1309]

I'll check it out... Thanks

[@bjornjensen1309]

Mostly Brits are asking for refunds for their ruined holiday. Yes really. Never mind the nuclear leval devastating and loss of life, Nothing is left and all they care about is their stupid holiday. Roll your sleeves and organise a drive. Families were lost. Babies drowned.. I will check if anyone locally is organising. Maybe you all out there already know more than me. Let me know.