POWER MONITOR, Measure Real Power with power factor. Using a 100 Amp Power monitor from Banggood

[@fearlessphilshiver]

Great video! Note there is a 3% loss in efficiency (i.e. wattage increase) for each conversion, so about 6% total in this example. If a machine is run nearly continuously it may be worth the invesment to replace the three phase motor with a 240V single phase (and selling the old one), or having the power service upgraded to provide 3-phase "from the pole." I appreciate that this double conversion example makes perfect sense if the end equipment was acquired at little cost, it is used intermittently, or this is a home garage with no possibility of getting 3-phase power from the utility. Cheers!

[@pierresgarage2687]

Since those machines were acquired used at much lower cost than brand new machines and were operated at 600 volts 3 phases, it made sense to keep them in original configuration. The lathe has a 2 speeds 7.5 HP and the milling has three 600 volts motors, this would be lots of fitting and fidling to replace. And, one important factor in favor of keeping the 3 phases motors is the extra torque available from a three phases motor compared to a single phase unit. Getting 3 phases from the pole would probably be possible since three phases wiring is installed just on my front yard, the drawback is the cost, I estimate from at least $10k to possibly over $20k to get a complete installation.... 😱 $$$$ The total cost of the electric bill is less than $2k per year for the house and the shop, it would take at least ten lifetimes to get even and more to start saving money... Being retired and only using the shop very partially now, it's quite more reasonnable to keep on using this setup, as a bonus, the extra consumption from the phase converter is used to heat the shop during the cooler part of the year. Thanks for your comment, Pierre

[@brucewilliams6292]

Hi Pierre, Thanks for the video. I was looking for this very thing for a project I had and you always do a great job of explaining what is happening. Thank you.

[@pierresgarage2687]

Glad I could help...!!! Thanks for viewing and taking a moment to leave a nice comment, Pierre

[@docpedersen7582]

Well done Pierre.

[@pierresgarage2687]

Good morning and thanks for comment, Pierre

[@AmateurRedneckWorkshop]

Very professionally done.

[@pierresgarage2687]

Hi Harold, This took me quite a while to get it right... ;) Nice of you to notice and mentionneing it. Sun is really shining this weekend, just that tha neighbors got out everything that make noise, leaf blower, pressure washer, guess we can't have it all perfect at once... lol Take care, Pierre

[@brucejohansen5933]

j'ai toujours cru qu'il fallait se coucher moins naiseux qu'on sé lever. Ton emission m'a aider a accomplir mon objectif. merci monsieur (TRANSLATION) i always believed that it is better to go to sleep not as dumb as i woke up. thank you sir for helping me accomplish this.

[@pierresgarage2687]

Nice reward to hear from viewers that the material is helping someone get better sleep that night... I do the same on some other good channels.... ;) Thanks for comment, Pierre

[@EverettsWorkshop]

Very cool, your explanation of the test you were performing was well done - I've never dealt with 3-phase equipment in my shop, and the numbers made sense once you worked the math out. I was surprised how much horsepower was required to dig a .200" cut, no wonder my little 1.5 hp motor grunts at half of that in good steel! Thank you for doing this one, It was very informative.

[@pierresgarage2687]

Hi Everett, the bigger machines have a definite advantage in heavier removal, this is where we realise that steel is quite hard... ;) Don't hear much from you lately, hope you're doing good.... Cheers, Pierre

[@jonmixer6142]

inductive loads have a lagging current sine wave. Your diagram showed the inductive load to be leading.

[@pierresgarage2687]

Sorry about the inversion, my electronic knowledge is some years ago, my memory might also be lagging behind... 🙂🙄

[@RRINTHESHOP]

Good explanation. Good video.

[@pierresgarage2687]

Hi Randy, And for the price that little device is quite accurate, not for lab use but great for a small shop... ;) Cheers, Pierre

[@miltonhooper6658]

Excellent video. Great narrative.

[@pierresgarage2687]

Thank you for nice comment, Pierre

[@bernardpeter4178]

Good explanation. Good video.keep it up sir.

[@pierresgarage2687]

Thank you for comment, Pierre

[@JonathanVaucher]

Crois tu que je peux utiliser ces power monitor (deux moniteurs, un sur chaque phase) pour mesurer ma consomation sur mon paneau électrique de maison de 200A (100A sur chaque phase) ?

[@pierresgarage2687]

Si tu te trouves en Amérique du Nord, la réponse est oui. En fait tu te trouveras à mesurer chacune des branches de 120 volts, tu additionnes chacune des ces branches et tu auras la puissance totale utilisée, par contre pour les circuits à 240 volts qui n'utilisent pas de neutre tu devras les isoler et les mesurer indépendamment. Dans ce cas une des deux branches seulement a besoin d'être monitorée.

[@asadulhuq]

Another excellent presentation. Thanks a lot. Now, I have 2 questions. 1. Does the monitoring device show Apparent or Real power? 2. Does the monitor display viewing angle and brightness are good to view the readings? Thanks again.

[@pierresgarage2687]

To your first question, the device shows the real power drawn on the power line, also the cumulative reading is adjusted after calculating the power factor. As shown in the video, the apparent power drawn would be (volts X amps ) 244 X 26.4 = 6441 watts, there the device shows actual power draw of 1.09 kw with a power factor of 0.16. The cumulative part is also adjusted. The display is installed some distance above my view and it's still easy to read even though the angle is something like 45 degrees or just about... Thanks for viewing, I hope this is what you needed to know, Pierre

[@asadulhuq]

@@pierresgarage2687 Thanks. You are a great man. You presentations are excellent and responses are very quick. Asadul, Dhaka, Bangladesh.

[@PhilsProjects]

Gezzzz i am unable to go to your place for a few weeks and all the sudden you start making holes in the furniture, VACCUMING!!!! and marking the walls with crayons.. Pierre, i need to set you straight again. lol I must come up with a production run to keep you busy and away from that destructive behavior. Informative, nicely done

[@pierresgarage2687]

You're getting to sound just like Keld, Lucky he's on the other side of the pound... lol Guess we need to get back making Monkeys of ourselves, issues are getting slowly resolved, at least for the moment... ;) See ya soon...!!!

[@barrygerbracht5077]

Great explanation of power factor (assuming what I understood is correct at any rate). Does the drag under load reduce the phase discrepancy from the inductive side to produce the increase in power factor?

[@pierresgarage2687]

Hi Barry, Sounds like your understanding is right, it won't reach 1 but it will get closer as load increases. In industrial areas utility companies have to correct the shift caused by users that have lots of machinery with big heavy motors, they do this in order to keep the rest of the network to be out of phase, this could cause some pretty high uncontroled surges. Cheers, Pierre

[@nowayjerk8064]

this one time at band camp i took 2 extension cords on different breakers and ran a 240v air compressor , but only cos i dont know better . just enough to be dangerous thats me :)good to see ya thanks for sharing !!

[@somebodyelse6673]

Did anyone ever figure out why the band camp burned down?

[@billsmini10]

Why didn't you remove the switches in the door, then remove the door from the panel? Then you would prevent getting metal chips inside the box from drilling/cutting. Stan recently did an electrical box cutting, but there were no electrical components installed inside it until after he made the hole for the display.

[@pierresgarage2687]

I've seen Stan's job, quite neat on brand new box, I didn't feel like like undoing all of the already installed switches, the job needed to quick and dirty... ;) Thanks for comment, Pierre

[@jairoalcidesvillamarin8665]

Grate and entertaine vídeo, Desde Colombia, gracias

[@pierresgarage2687]

Thank you for watching and for your comment, Pierre

[@unitepak]

INPUT & OUTPUT NATURAL LINE =3 ,N INPUT & OUTPUT LIVE WIRE 4 ,L AND CROSS LIVE WIRE ?

[@moox64]

on screen on the total cumulate " KWh "does include PF ? or do I have to add the PF % to know the total ( the electricity bill paid)

[@pierresgarage2687]

It reflect the "Actual" corrected power consumption, I kinda quickly checked it out to make sure... ;)

[@6969smurfy]

I need to read power factor @ 3,000amp, 3 phase... Any suggestions?

[@pierresgarage2687]

The only measuring tools I've used to do this on 3 phases are quite costly, not tried yet anything in th lower priced Asian devices, not sure how they would do what's requested or the accuracy. At 3000amps. you would need to insltall proper coils in order to be able to match the wire size and current flow... I suspect those tools are in the high thousand of $$$$.

[@cpcoark]

Pierre, I can't believe those numbers. Current is way too high or your RPC is very large. I just measured mine and it idled around 8 amps. Mine is a 10hp size driving a 5hp lathe. Is your display on the correct scale for the coil pickup?

[@pierresgarage2687]

It is very close, a couple of years ago I measured with a real costly pro unit and the resuls were within 5% of this, I'm looking for some capacitors at a reasonnable price to try brigning the ration to a much better figure. The high shifting of the phase is due to the 20 HP RPC, connected to a 30Kva stepup transformer and finally a 7.5 hp motor on the lathe, this is a lot of inductance in the way... ;)

[@stephenwagar2663]

Phil's Comment Made Me Laugh , And Hobby Dentistry . Boy Howdy , How Much Fun Are We Allowed To Have ? I Enjoyed The Video And Learned Alot As I Have Not Much Experence With Electricity ... Best Regards

[@pierresgarage2687]

There is not limit as how much fun is allowed, as long as no one has to suffer from it... Fun is for everyone... One former career was in electronics, until 1991 for the Canadian Broadcasting Corp, for 20 years. Cheers, Pierre

[@stephenwagar2663]

Impressive ! I'm Aware That You Know Quite ALot About A Great Mamy Things , It Shows In All Your Videos . I Am A Retired Land Surveyor Best Regards Again

[@iamGomer]

Can't say I've seen a PF that low before. But, I love how 'cheap' the meters are. For piece of mind, I do fuse them. Doubt that would do much. Keep up the good videos sir.

[@pierresgarage2687]

Quite a while go I had access to an costly metering device, and the present results match real closely to that costly meeter... Hard to beat under $15, the other unit was closer to $4000... !!! Thanks for comment, Pierre

[@MaturePatriot]

Are the caps drained automatically? What type lathe are you using that you need 600vac? Does it really pull 45 amps under load? Electrical education point #1: It can kill you!!!! Learned that in the late '50s when my dad almost died from electrical shock and burns. I don't fear it, I do all my own wiring, but I do respect it. Currently finishing the build on my RPC. Very good demo video.

[@MaturePatriot]

By the way I was about to order a 3 piece Cobalt HHS step drill set, you saved me money, plus 2 more bits. SWEET!

[@pierresgarage2687]

Those drills are quite surprising in quality... Electricity is an element that deserves respect, or like you mention you could get seriously injured, up until 1991 I used to works in electronics, and sometimes had to repair vacuum tube monitors, 25 Kvo;s was a harsh shock to be served, since it always happened during a career.... Not a pleasing memory, though... Wiring electricity, in my books, requires some basic knowledge of electricity laws and construction code in order to avoid burning the house... Better be safer than sorry. Thanks for viewing anf for your comment, Pierre

[@MaturePatriot]

My brother and I wired the first house I built, It passed on first inspection.

[@pierresgarage2687]

Shows good knowledge... ;)

[@JoginderSingh-dr8dx]

Two power factor relay and two. Panel. Two. C't connection

[@outsidescrewball]

you lost me when you opened the power box...yikes, this is something I avoid....lol, enjoyed the vid

[@pierresgarage2687]

Hi Chuck, It's not that bad once you understand electricity a little, just keep your fingers out of live contacts, though... lol And, if you don't the first time, it doesn't take many lessons to learn...... ;) Cheers, Pierre

[@pakrattuk1562]

Hi i Phil, my understanding of power factor is limited but basically, in an inductive load, you use more power (not less) for the same amount of work done i.e 1kW of input power will only give you less than 1kW of useful power, depending on the power factor (or to put it another way, if you use 1kW of power, you will be charged for more than 1kW) Also, your power factor of 0.16 is terrible, meaning that for every kW of power you are paying for, you are only getting 0.16kW ish of useful power. I know phase converters will use some power but didn't think that should be as bad as it looks. Hope this sort of makes sense.

[@pakrattuk1562]

Sorry, meant Pierre

[@pierresgarage2687]

No offence about the name... ;) When I get some spare time, ( Sigh...!!! ) it wouls be interenting to see how this situation could be corrected by use of capacitors, mostly trying to keep the rotophase in balance... To be continued...!!! Thanks for your input, Pierre

[@pauldevey8628]

I wonder why hobby dentistry is not more popular?

[@pierresgarage2687]

Enough of the real ones, you get there, they torture you and even get you to pay a hefty price for it... lol Cheers, Pierre

[@SimpleEnough2k9]

I have to admit that this thing got a really bad power factor. Even if you're not paying extra for your electric bill, it would be wise to add capacitance in order to improve the power factor and lower the current flow in your wiring.

[@pierresgarage2687]

Agreed that some experimentation would be a plus, I would have to get myself some good quality oil filled capacitors and testing for loaded and unloaded situation, it would probably improve the transfer on the transformer itself...

[@SimpleEnough2k9]

@@pierresgarage2687 Based on some quick calculation a 470uF capacitor would bring the power factor in the .90's. Of course, it's voltage rating would be in the same range as the ones used for the HVAC central units. When dealing with mains voltage and above, we can't take anything for granted. Extreme care is mandatory!!!

[@pierresgarage2687]

Would you install the capacitor directly shunted on the 240volts input line right after the switch, is a run capacitor the one to use in this case...? Or on the phases after the step-up transformer where the voltage is then 600 volts 3 phases, there would be a need to install one on each phase I guess...< Yah...!!! This scares me a little...!!!

[@SimpleEnough2k9]

@@pierresgarage2687 The capacitor would be in parallel with the input of your "1 to 3 phases converter". The "start" and "run" capacitor naming convention is basically to ease the understanding as to where the capacitor is used. The only difference is in fact the capacity. Internally they're the same. They could be interchanged as long as the capacity is within specs. For the 1 to 3 phases unit you could benefit with the use of capacitors on each phase. The last element you have is actually a transformer that step up the voltage to 600V, isn't it ? Personally I'd go only with the capacitor on the 1 to 3 phases converter and evaluate the situation from there. If you have a spare meter, you could consider measuring the current and power factor on each phase and determine if correcting the power factor at the input of the 1 to 3 phases converter is really beneficial. Don't forget, the caps voltage rating is based on "peak" values, not RMS.

[@pierresgarage2687]

I know a place where they got some caps at reasonable prices, I'll try to get an assortment of values in order to tweek the result... Thanks for the hints, useful to get started.....

[@jeffbrown7246]

Need some capacitors pal so your not just circulating and paying for 30a that you’re not using!!! 🤦🏼‍♂️

[@pierresgarage2687]

Any suggestion on what values and type that could be appropriate to correct and bring the factor to near 1...?

[@jeffbrown7246]

@@pierresgarage2687 I’ll look at the video again

[@tompas11A3n52KkX]

Why do you need a power monitor? How will a power monitor get you a better machinist? I just can't get it...

[@pierresgarage2687]

This is some kinda response to some guys that try to make comparative testing on machinery, they used the regular power formula that didn't take into account the Power Factor element, in my books their results were pretty far from reality. Exemple testing metal removat using different lubricants, or any other comparison you may imagine... ;) As a benefit you get a cumulative count for power consumption, this will be useful to me to figure how much electricity is used to charge my Chevrolet Volt. Like you say, I'm not addressing only machinists, but this could be of use to people in other trades that need a real reading of power, thanks for viewing and comment, Pierre

[@tompas11A3n52KkX]

OK I get your point Pierre, have a nice...

[@somebodyelse6673]

Pierre, maybe you could use your power meter to compare how tool geometry affects the power required to make a cut? Those of us with benchtop lathes might like to see what positive, neutral, and negative rake does for staying within the capability of smaller lathe motors.

[@pierresgarage2687]

You've got an excellent idea, this is important mostly when power is very limited or to optimize a process... ;)

[@bcbloc02]

SO you built a lathe dyno of sorts. :-)

[@saqibiqbal7667]

Long video so " REAL WASTE OF "

[@pierresgarage2687]

If you have something positive to help me improve the content and the way it's produced, You're more than welcome, I'm more knowledgeable in machining and installing than video production, so.....