PRI 2024 cam challenge Q&A follow up thoughts

[@Bunger428]

" Cams shaft selection is always an educated guess " and now there's a few grey hairs starting to show up in your beard ...I'm all ears . I'm really looking forward to seeing more data.. Your humility is so refreshing keep doing what your doing. thanks

[@powellmachineinc]

@@Bunger428 thank you!! We try hard

[@SalterRacingEngines]

Great video Daniel Wish we could have talked more but we both were super busy with people in front of us People were so nice and kind we had somebody take us out to eat every day we were there. Had a blast

[@powellmachineinc]

@@SalterRacingEngines it went buy so fast!!, we were going to stay through Saturday and come back Sunday, but we hit all the places we needed to and decided to get back, I didn't really get to "hang out with anyone but Ryan and Brent,

[@SalterRacingEngines]

@powellmachineinc I really liked Ryan to

[@SalterRacingEngines]

@powellmachineinc I really like Brent too I didn't mean for that to sound that way but I've carried on with Brent through texting and that was the first time I had met Ryan

[@powellmachineinc]

@SalterRacingEngines definitely!, we probably spent a hour ,me Ryan and Kip just jawwing about cams, then I spent maybe 20min with tooley and his head designer, and I got to meet 15-20 of our tube subs, and talked to 5 or 6 of our vendors, it was really good, but absolutely next year I'm getting a booth, that way I just run over and see whoever then come back to my booth and sit!

[@doncarlson8391]

@@SalterRacingEngines, you, Daniel, Eric and the whole group that showed up for the cam challenge are the kind of real life celebrities we gear heads appreciate.

[@doncarlson8391]

I wish you could show the same lift under curve plots for the motion at the valve as you can for the lobes. I think it would be an impressive visual demonstration. What we see comparing 2 lobe profiles, multiplied by the rocker ratio would make a very enlightening picture. Really appreciate you taking time to "unpack" all of this stuff Daniel.

[@powellmachineinc]

@@doncarlson8391 I can show that

[@doncarlson8391]

@powellmachineinc that would be great, can't wait to see it!

[@jonelford]

Great job, Daniel. It was great to meet you and visit for a few minutes at breakfast! Hopefully see you again next year!

[@powellmachineinc]

@jonelford absolutely 💯, tyvm! Hopefully we can visit again next year, I had a great time.

[@ccaracingproducts]

One thing I will say is I got a lot more done this year at PRI as an attendee than when I have exhibited in the past. Being able to go around and talk to the head/block manufacturers and distributors, as well as the machine tool builders, was much easier without a booth. So if you plan on getting a booth make sure you've got someone that can stay there and talk to your customers while you take meetings and such elsewhere. For me it has just been my poor retired mother handing out business cards and telling folks to stop back in between working on a knitting project.

[@powellmachineinc]

@@ccaracingproducts definitely

[@ronthepainter3313]

Great video. It was interesting to see so many faces in the crowd that I recognize. A collection of minds working in the same direction is awesome.

[@powellmachineinc]

@@ronthepainter3313 💯

[@ronn147]

Thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge! I had no idea how they come up with what lash setting should be for each cam thanks for the explanation that’s definitely something I wondered and just 1 of the many things that stuck out in the video

[@powellmachineinc]

@ronn147 absolutely 💯, ty for watching and the support

[@clintonsmith9931]

I watch those Hollywood dudes in CA building their high dollar engines. Haven’t much in last 50 years. The higher price parts don’t seem to make as much power as the parts we use to get much cheaper from Honest Charlie or the Chevy dealer, or in the ads in back of Hot Rod. Use to get hundred hp where they now get ten from a set of headers or manifold, or Even a hot cam. Thanks again for given us insight in your business and stuff I wish I knew years ago. Hope you have a good Christmas and have to work lots of overtime.

[@powellmachineinc]

@@clintonsmith9931 absolutely 💯, ty

[@BadAttitudeC-10]

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[@powellmachineinc]

@@BadAttitudeC-10 our pleasure

[@BadAttitudeC-10]

@@powellmachineinc 👍

[@BadAttitudeC-10]

@@powellmachineinc 👍

[@donaldhalls2189]

I'm glad you were able to go and rub elbows with all those people and learn what you need, sound's like a great time, thanks for sharing, all the best to you and your loved ones

[@powellmachineinc]

@donaldhalls2189 absolutely! We appreciate that 🙏

[@AINTNOTHINGEASYINLIFE]

Very exciting times!!!!! A lot of great things going on!!!!!!!! Awesome!!!!! Good to hear it!!!!!

[@powellmachineinc]

@@AINTNOTHINGEASYINLIFE definitely!! Ty

[@Hjfvvdst]

I believe the best built engine with all engine parts optimized won't be optimal without the total package optimized. Meaning from the air cleaner or air entrance all the way through to the exhaust point. So it like you said if the air entrance, carb, intake, engine, headers, ext aren't considered as a package you may never get the optimized engine or cam, ect. Not many engine builders talk about this. The real good engine builders like yourself know and understand these things. I don't know how to do these things but I know when I'm listening to some who does. You sir, are one of few who knows and is sharing great information. Thank you.

[@powellmachineinc]

@@Hjfvvdst we are glad to do it!

[@jmflournoy386]

nice job thanks

[@powellmachineinc]

Appreciate the watch!

[@richardboggs260]

Very glad I got to meet you!!! I had a great time but found out that I am really stupid about camshafts!!!! From now on when I need a camshaft, I am going to ask a expert which one I need

[@powellmachineinc]

@richardboggs260 just remember, everyone started at the beginning! Don't beat yourself up!!

[@joeyjojojr.shabadoo915]

Also... Great to see 'Uncle Bob' (Street Racing Channel Engine Builder) sitting by Daniel.

[@powellmachineinc]

@@joeyjojojr.shabadoo915 I don't know him

[@joeyjojojr.shabadoo915]

@@powellmachineinc Bob McVay. He's a Machinist/Engine Builder/Shop owner from Ohio (McVay Automotive & Machine) that is often featured on the Street Racing Channel (SRC). THey call him Uncle Bob and he's a great guy, helping them out all the time.

[@powellmachineinc]

@@joeyjojojr.shabadoo915 will check him out

[@Expedition18]

Educating educators with real world experience. 👍

[@powellmachineinc]

@@Expedition18 ty!

[@elijah2078]

Great machinist!!!

[@powellmachineinc]

@elijah2078 thank you!!

[@rickmachale8646]

I crew on a (record holding) land speed car, and the owner wants to build a new car, so we went to PRI. I was looking for you specifically, even rode the same bus, but it didn't happen. Great event. I always enjoy the information and your comments in your videos. Good job!

[@powellmachineinc]

@rickmachale8646 Gimme a call or shoot me a email, I'd definitely be interested in a conversation

[@f100rangerxlt3]

Good Stuff and timely because it touched on two things weve been talking about. Cant wait to see some dyno videos and the collaboration with Brent.

[@powellmachineinc]

@@f100rangerxlt3 definitely, I can't wait either!

[@roberthirshfield3571]

Very informative heads in that room would have loved to bee there I’m sure my mine would still be spinning thank you again

[@powellmachineinc]

@@roberthirshfield3571 it was definitely a good time

[@AmosMoses-Mr.Gator28]

Alot of what you said was shown in this video i put in the link below, The guy who made this video shows the pressure dynamics in the Intake, Exhaust & in cylinder pressure measurements along with the reflective waveform pulses in the intake & exhaust, all relative to each valve event, the overlap period, degrees of crankshaft rotation and absolute pressure.. Its a very very intresting video all the way threw, this is the short version of the video there is a long version that is 3.5 hours long and is still a good watch with alot of knowledge to be had. The guy who made this video even shows the calculation for every single individual valve event, the calculation for overlap, the calculation for the discharge coefficient of a cylinder head, the calculation for cfm per sq in of intake valve dia and he explains the relationship between the ci per in" of intake valve dia, the discharge coefficient and valve events. I recomend you watch the long version of this video but this shorter version as awsome too. Take care Daniel 👊🏻 kzbin.info/www/bejne/jHXPkpZ7pLuZgJYsi=orVL2DMtiizx3CCa

[@powellmachineinc]

@@AmosMoses-Mr.Gator28 good deal

[@V8Lenny]

that guy must send his cam to next challenge, he might know even more about cam design than vizard and knows that LSA is the most important parameter.

[@AmosMoses-Mr.Gator28]

@@V8Lenny I Agree, The dude Adam definetly knows his stuff when it comes to valve events & engine dynamics. He is extremely intelligent and rare type of individual who has alot of experience that most will never have, im glad he is willing to share it with us. He easly beats Vizards information by far!!! I'm 64 years old and I'm no dummy, I've built my fair share of engines, I'm no "pro" but I am very impressed by the information Adam has put out for the public to consume. What did you think of the mach cone & the shockwave produced by supersonic flow? It was awsome that he was able to achive supersonic flow with optimal valve events which as he said produces optimal gas dynamics and influences what he calls the optimaly calculated & modified convergent & divergent regions in the engine & exhaust to produce supersonic flow. I've watched bolth versions of that video probably 10 times now, it's good lol.

[@V8Lenny]

@@AmosMoses-Mr.Gator28 mach waves are only possible when detonating, flow cant go supersonic, so he is full of shit.

[@AmosMoses-Mr.Gator28]

@@V8Lenny Larry Meaux would beg to differ that he is full of sh!t as you say. Larry Meaux has said supersonic flow exists for a long time but all he has ever shown are the dimond shape waves out of headers, Adam clearly showed video of a mach cone and the shockwaves produced by the expansion of said mach cone. what we seen in that video was clearly not a detonation wave, it was a Mach Cone, plus you can hear the engine on the full speed video.

[@chevyrc3623]

That's pretty cool that everyone was in a room and Eric was on stage and you and everyone else was talking about cams and got to meet people and see cool stuff I wish I could of been there but it seems like a really cool gathering and everything

[@powellmachineinc]

@@chevyrc3623 it was a blast

[@dondotterer24]

Can you imagine how many camshafts that they test . Pro stock and super stock guys do.. Thanks for the great video.

[@powellmachineinc]

@@dondotterer24 absolutely 💯

[@phillip-cl8bk]

i know ya got a lot of positive comments but ya deserve it! it was a GREAT video! i learned a lot n i always get something from each of your videos, keep up the good work

[@powellmachineinc]

@phillip-cl8bk thank you sir!!

[@bruce1816]

Great video, Daniel !!! Glad you had a good time. I've only been to PRI one time.

[@powellmachineinc]

@bruce1816 absolutely, it was a beneficial trip!

[@RoyMiller-d8y]

I believe for now i'll have to stay in my own lane.I appreciate the info dude.😊

[@powellmachineinc]

@@RoyMiller-d8y you're welcome

[@DavidSmith-eu4lq]

Another great video, A lot of good information. You are a lot smarter than you give yourself credit for!

[@powellmachineinc]

@@DavidSmith-eu4lq ty, we appreciate that 🙏

[@lazyhoundracing9621]

Awesome. Thanks.

[@powellmachineinc]

@@lazyhoundracing9621 💯 welcome

[@JamesBower-l9d]

Thanks Daniel great content!

[@powellmachineinc]

@@JamesBower-l9d thank you!!

[@litonyayo1666]

great channel.nuff said.

[@powellmachineinc]

@@litonyayo1666 we appreciate that 🙏

[@joecarroll1735]

I think we’ll be staying at the Hyatt next year. Great video Daniel

[@powellmachineinc]

@@joecarroll1735 Tu sir!!

[@brianed1258]

Daniel , very informative session thank you. Was the guy there that made the KZbin video having a go at you re the regrinding of camshafts . Would have loved to see him get up and speak . He would have been the laughing stock of the Show 😊

[@powellmachineinc]

@@brianed1258 lol, na, didn't see that guy

[@Scubasteve22]

Thanks for sharing! So on the comparison between hyd vs solid and the size of the cam, do you average the total difference?

[@powellmachineinc]

@@Scubasteve22 not really because op/cl events probably matter more

[@treyrags]

Good stuff. I've always wondered the same things about Hydro roller lifters and where they deviate from the intended valve action. How does rocker ratio, pushrod flex, oil viscosity and aeration, etcetera affect that? Thanks.

[@Jeffsa12]

Interesting info Daniel. Appreciate that you took the time to share your thoughts with us. It's the running engine dynamics that change with each RPM. Cam events are a compromise over the on track operating RPM range. To me the common plenum intake manifold dynamics are crazy to think about. Good running combinations require a lot of dyno and track testing to end up at a winning combo. Too bad the NHRA pro stock tech from even a decade ago wasn't common knowledge. I think the details on cylinder head /intake and camshafts would be fascinating. Think about cam lobe design that could control a 2.5" intake valve opening and closing @ 84 times per second at 10,000 RPM.

[@powellmachineinc]

@Jeffsa12 absolutely ultimately it's all a compromise somewhere

[@malglasspool9302]

Hi Daniel understand the requirement of particular velocity window during initial contact of, removal of slack, in the valve train system but what determines what is actually required lash wise for thermal expansion of involved components? Rpm, valve material, rocker material, operating temperatures time etc? Can i specify i have a water cooled engine, max 6700 rpm steel valve and rocker, I therefore require ‘x’ amount of lash?

[@powellmachineinc]

@malglasspool9302 so, that's why we need lash, some iron stuff may not grow but .005-.008, sum all aluminum may grow. 010-.015, so .018- .022 lash is reasonable on race stuff

[@kennyrmurray]

Pretty cool you had Brian Salter, Bob Mcvay and some other familiar faces. I wish I coulda made it but it’s far from me. My worst part is leaving this hell hole Long Island NY trying to get through the city. I have a place upstate and I have to leave at 3AM to head out and after 5PM to come home so I go through at 9PM after the heavy traffic. Hopefully one day I can head one way and don’t look back but it’s hard to walk away from my work, kids and grandkids. We need them on the same page

[@kennyrmurray]

I would think Lowe compression would like the slower ramps better?

[@powellmachineinc]

@kennyrmurray yep, I've been to NY I never want to go back

[@kennyrmurray]

@ I’m so tired of it. For the last 27 years I’ve been doing plumbing & heating by trade. I do big renovations in the the Hamptons and in the summer I sit in traffic from an hour and a half to two and a half one way depending which town the job is in. I’m so over it! I was a Chevrolet tech in Westhampton and it used to take me about 20 minutes in the 90’s. Now to go to the same place it’s about 40 minutes and WH is the first Hampton. Most of my jobs are E. Hampton. Big difference. My mother sold the house I grew up in and moved to Inman SC. 3 years later my sister did the same. My problem is I still rent a house on the water from a good friend with woods on the side of me. Nice spot so we got stuck here. It’s nice having the boat out my back door. I’m done with the floods though! I wanna go about an hour or so from them towards the mountains where it’s not as hot. I’m assuming that’s maybe in your direction? I’d love to just work out of my garage making money with my mill, lathe and welders or whatever. I’m not sure there’s and money in that these days

[@powellmachineinc]

@kennyrmurray we have tons of that work down here!, move!

[@bdugle1]

Great content all the way through! On the subject of hydraulic vs solid comparisons, by visual inspection, the GPI hydraulic lobe was a lot longer than your solid lobe. Seems to me that for apples to apples comparison, the cam doctor info needs to be biased by the lobe lash number, whether that’s the designed number or the installed number. You mentioned using the cam doctor to determine what the lash number was supposed to be. If you assume a particular solid lobe needs (is designed for) 0.010” of lobe lash, then the comparison of that solid lobe at 0.060” lift should be comparable to the 0.050” number for the hydraulic lobe. The solid lobe, in most cases, is going to be more intense, ie, greater velocity, acceleration, and ultimately lift, just as you said. But the comparable duration and event points should be more comparable if you factor out the solid lobe’s lash. I know the cam doctor reads everything off the base circle-I think that’s the problem in comparing the two. So please tell me where I’m wrong! Still, great content Daniel

[@powellmachineinc]

@bdugle1 that's why we look at valve motion, that makes everything else irrelevant,

[@deanmoser5907]

Hill Billy from the woods. You are nobody's fool. Be proud of what you have achieved.

[@powellmachineinc]

Tyvm

[@SealofPerfection]

So where's the video of the seminar the "Cam Whisperer" was holding there? I figured that'd be standing room only

[@powellmachineinc]

Lol, that guy got canceled

[@willschaller1157]

Looking for a hydraulic roller for a 360 LA small block mopar. You have a core to grind one? It,s for a pickup that pulls a trailer.

[@powellmachineinc]

I'm out of short nose cores, I've got long nose

[@Tom-z1q]

Daniel Powel is a titan warrior. The human defination of torque. Lol. Dude should be in a arnold movie. 😊

[@powellmachineinc]

@@Tom-z1q lol, best one yet

[@clkeck1]

I would say it's not quite as simple as just area under the curve on a Lift vs duration chart. You also need to factor in increase flow at the higher lifts. I think a more accurate comparison would be area under the curve of a flow verse duration chart

[@powellmachineinc]

@@clkeck1 plus actual op/cl events as well

[@roberthirshfield3571]

Do you get more horsepower out of a higher compression engine like 11.0 compared to 9,0 with the correct cam

[@powellmachineinc]

@roberthirshfield3571 generally this would be correct

[@reevesautomotivefarm9614]

I have a solid roller cam in my daily comp cams 12-700-8 it's 224° at .050, 268 advertised. Smallest solid roller cam I could find from any manufacturer.

[@jeffcarpenter396]

Valve springs has a lot of play into the equation too

[@powellmachineinc]

Absolutely

[@davelewis2174]

I missed PRI this year, but I've had buying a Spintron on my mind for a few years now.

[@powellmachineinc]

@@davelewis2174 can't buy one unless u find a used one, and I can build a new one cheaper

[@jeffcarpenter396]

How much bleed off on hydraulic lifter when the lobe actually comes into the lift part of the lobe where roller comes off lash I have run old solid lift cams and too tight if lash engine wouldn't hardly run and I always adjust hydraulic cams while engine was running old 396 BBC run good with hydraulic flattappet set at zero by sound they would run pretty good it beat alot of solid flattappet in its day

[@davemahler-bv5sc]

Daniel, your to humble!!

[@powellmachineinc]

@@davemahler-bv5sc I know my place!

[@georgedreisch2662]

Wonder if “Steve”, didn’t mean 10 degrees on each side (opening vs. closing) of the lobe?

[@powellmachineinc]

@georgedreisch2662 no, he was clear

[@sjcottsi]

Bleed-down rate would be a factor as far as losses go. There was a company (I forget the name) that marketed a cam and lifter set with a really fast bleed-down rate. It was supposed to act like a small cam at low rpm and bigger as rpm increased. I think there was too many variables they had no control over e.g. oil pressure. It must have died quickly. I never saw any more about it.

[@powellmachineinc]

@sjcottsi Rhodes lifters, there still selling that nonsense

[@roberthollinshead2325]

Rhroads has developed some neat stuff too over the years. I've never seen or heard of any if their lifters wiping out either. I talked to them a short time ago and they said they are still made in USA so that's good. ​@powellmachineinc

[@b_hall]

Someone did a solid roller vs hydraulic roller test. My conclusion is that the hydraulic is better in all situations below 6500rpm. Also, i use a dcr calculator to set the ivc. I see it as the ivc is the powerband and the overlap is how much power is put into the powerband. The trick is keeping the overlap from going straight out the exhaust or back into the intake.

[@powellmachineinc]

@b_hall setting dcr with ivc is great, but you can really restrict rpm and cylinder filling with to early of a ivc , so I look ar rpm requirements more than dynamic.

[@duanebusch72]

@@powellmachineincyep might gain more from closing it later than the loss of dynamic compression. sure there is a trade off at some point. our 306 closes valve at 66* at .050 and we only have 12.5 static it’s late enough to reach a 10k shift point exhaust open at 77* too that’s only a dynamic compression ratio of like 8.0 lol still was able to set a record at the end of 2023 season in good air

[@powellmachineinc]

@@duanebusch72 that's my point 👉

[@TomSmith-cv8hk]

I called it a 12 degree difference on Richard Holdener's live. But yer it's more with rocker ratio.

[@powellmachineinc]

@@TomSmith-cv8hk definitely

[@davidgough1161]

I see you sat next to Bob McVay, He is a good friend. I hope you got to talk to him some.

[@powellmachineinc]

He sent me a message

[@travis48g]

Sometimes you just gotta take a dump.A negative wave during overlap helps with a dump as well.😢

[@powellmachineinc]

@@travis48g lol

[@jalbarado1]

Its all Smoke and Mirrors... and educated guesses....😊

[@powellmachineinc]

@@jalbarado1 facts

[@duanebusch72]

if you happen to nail the combo, something eventually happens to force a change, and you are nearly back at square one lol

[@powellmachineinc]

@@duanebusch72 it's not exactly that bad

[@alexhise968]

I watch/listen all the camshaft videos and try my best to apply it to the DOHC stuff I do, but It doesn't all translate over.

[@powellmachineinc]

Absolutely

[@jimmywilliams2553]

What do you think about these people running solid lifters on a hydraulic cam?

[@powellmachineinc]

@jimmywilliams2553 it's fine with proper lash

[@pdh098]

Back in the day Warren Johnson would test hundreds of cams to find the best one for his pro stock engine.

[@powellmachineinc]

Absolutely 💯

[@terrysmith8133]

this is the first i've heard that you have a dyno. when you get it running are you going to do youtube videos of some of the engines?

[@powellmachineinc]

@@terrysmith8133 absolutely 💯

[@GeorgeFarahGNR]

So what kind of crazy cam are we gonna put in the 408 😂. You can do whatever you want for testing purposes. We can swap a cam later.

[@TimothyArnott-m7z]

Hey Daniel, Tim here.......wish I cuda went to PRI.......did Brent get there??......I know he's wanting to work with you on a few of his Ford cams......BOTH of us guys I consider TOP-NOTCH , educated dudes......I DONT follow fluff/garbage.....I'm too old.....want quality info SOON.......I am intrested in how ur collaboration will go.......I had a thought...(scary I know)......but if u guys came up with a cam line......how bout calling it the LynkPOW camshaft.....I like its sound.......LynkPOW!!.........like i order a LynkPOW cam from Powell cams, and my 302 Ford JUMPS to life......just a thought, and I'm ur token PONTIAC dude......love ALL ICE period......TY for a smart vid update.......hope u and Brent can come up with some killer grinds......too bad it dont help me in Poncho land......but my respect for you both is VERY high!!.....TY again......PEACE my brother!!

[@powellmachineinc]

@TimothyArnott-m7z if you watch to the end I talk about that

[@jeffcarpenter396]

I just like to ask things for clarity

[@powellmachineinc]

Absolutely

[@jeffcarpenter396]

I always thought cams were made with lash built in

[@powellmachineinc]

@@jeffcarpenter396 idk what that means

[@jeffcarpenter396]

Does it mean a solid at . 050 is . 260 or is it ground at actual . 274 at . 50

[@powellmachineinc]

@@jeffcarpenter396 a 260 is measured at the lobe with no lash

[@jeffcarpenter396]

I don't like bronze valve guides or exotic bronze lifter sleeves try to drill a piece of bronze and it will grab drill bit I like cast seats better myself

[@powellmachineinc]

Yeah, bronze is a little tougher to machine.

[@TimothyArnott-m7z]

HA, so ya did talk to Brent.......think about my silly LykPOW Ford cams......he's anal, but VERY intelligent......I may be a Poncho guy, but gee, I'm following his vids like stink on pooh!!......u guys was be a great collaboration!!!!

[@powellmachineinc]

Definitely

[@Tylerscbperformance]

Around here we say it should be PRS because it isn’t based for the industry anymore haha

[@powellmachineinc]

@Tylerscbperformance personally I really enjoyed it

[@brianholcomb6499]

Tooley has a nice spintron! But I believe Ben Straders is alot nicer, with better data! The old Depac stuff for the dynos worked great for decades, but no one has picked it up since he died 🙄🙄🙄🙄! Also I remember old 30/30 lash stuff living on the track & street for along time!

[@powellmachineinc]

@brianholcomb6499 Ben and Brian both have the same machine and the same Plex data acquisition system, yep even at the 30 the velocity was really low