Privatize It: Reason Saves Cleveland With Drew Carey, Ep. 3

Should cities be in the business of running businesses ranging from convention centers to farmer's markets?
Selling off golf courses, contracting out parking concessions, and all manner of public-private partnerships are generating billions of dollars in revenue and dramatically improving city services in places such as Chicago and Indianapolis.
Will Cleveland's elected officials learn the right lessons in time?
Reason Saves Cleveland with Drew Carey is written and produced by Paul Feine; camera and editing by Roger Richards and Alex Manning; narrated by Nick Gillespie; music by the Cleveland band Cats on Holiday and Max Bowerman.
This is the third of six episodes that will air March 15-19, 2010. Approximately 10 minutes long.
Go to reason.tv for iPod, HD, and audio versions of all videos.
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[@LeGioNoFZioN]

love this series Reason, keep em coming.

[@eduardogarcia-ye3sq]

Privatization creates innovation and competition.

[@llamaczar]

Love the magazine, love the videos, keep them coming!

[@rmcdaniel423]

I understand all the points you are making, and am probably on your side of economic and political issues more than you realize. I was just trying to get him to understand that corporations are not, in and of themselves, the ubiquitous evil he thinks them to be. A family is also a corporation of sorts. I just wanted him to see the fallacy of blaming every imagined horror on "corporations". Govt is the core of the problems. Read my last 3 sentences again. They say what you say.

[@timfronimos459]

OK you got me I am hooked on this channel. Awesome video please come to Detroit. Even though Detroit has a good mayor, Chief of Police and prosecutor the vestiges of 90 years of mismanagement are slowing being corrected.

[@DixyRae]

Ok, so that's the trade off. On the one hand you can keep the money in the nation, but it doesn't lead to very much quick innovation. Privatize, and you open yourself up to the possibility of inviting corporations from out the country. But even if that happens, isn't is worth it if it saves our quickly crumbling infrastructure? We can't just keep patching up the old stuff. I say we need to try different things in different cities and see what works. Public or private, just use what works best.

[@bmw803]

Privatization is ok as long as it doesn't remain in a monopoly/duopoly situation. If 1 company manages the same thing the city did and there isn't any competition, nothing changes. Contract tendering also leads to corruption where some poilitician's friends get the contracts/kickbacks. The jail system in America is an example.

[@sniper6081]

Right, and the corporation splits the profits with the government. It's not actually called taxation, but that's what it is. It's not total privatization, but it's a good start.

[@Shroommduke]

Great answer David. This is not just about privatization it's about corruption, capture and control... Would you agree that Privatization should be called Corporatization, we are talking about corporate ownership, so how far do we allow it to go, what are the limits? Do we allow corporations to own natural monopolies or to acquire monopolies or build cartels, how about foreign corporations or governments, do you want your water & sewer system owned by an unstable unscrupulous corporation?

[@sarjim4381]

Corruption in Cleveland? No way! I left in 1966 because I could see where Cleveland was headed and, unfortunately, I wasn't wrong. Cleveland will never take any initiative until it shrinks by another quarter million. Even then, it will take some big crisis we don't yet see coming. On top of everything else, Cleveland has some of the worst weather in the nation. There's nothing anyone can do to change that.

[@libertyplayground]

@airborne373 " I do not want to see everything "privatized." Such as traffic enforcement when a company like RedFlex is allowed to put up cameras and mail fines for a cut." That's not privatization - that's a state-granted monopoly. A privatization is when an individual or group owns the road - not the government, and also not a company acting as a collection device for the government.

[@queerveganliberal]

Chicago is most definitely not some beacon for privatization. Our roads are crumbling, our bridges are crumbling, parking meters are ridiculously high at every street (privatization allows no accountability), schools are closing, class sizes have tripled in the past few years, law enforcement has become the most corrupt in the entire country, animal shelters have higher euthanasia rates because profit incentives. Really in essence privatization has devastated our city.

[@RedmoonStudiosYT]

Yeah I live in Chicago. It is not better to have sold off our stuff. It costs people a lot more and the improvement is not there or barely if it is. There’s still congestion from cruising. Reason this was not the example you want

[@elgrigorio1]

Well chicago is beyond corrupt, so it's pretty easy for sabatage to take place here.

[@Shroommduke]

Detroit's "horseshoer" is actually a metal worker and welder, his job description just hasn't been updated in 50 years. Can you explain why it would be a problem to privatize the courts and/or our government?

[@Yaddlezap]

There should be a new reality TV show called "Privatize It!"

[@hammer-fn7gm]

If you privatize some city services, will the customer service be handled by a call center in India?

[@thebookwasbetter3650]

1:21 - I live in a hundred year old building. I still don't understand the person who thought two faucets in a bathroom, one ice cold, one scolding hot, was a good idea. While you're at it can you make them spout out one inch from the sink so I hit my knuckles as I wash. I feel this lady's pain.

[@truthadvocate]

If I was in charge of a city, I'd sell public golf courses & famer's market facilities immediately. I'd remove zoning laws to reduce housing costs. I'd end minimum wage to create jobs. I'd remove barriers to entry to increase competition & decrease prices. I'd post a schedule for when I will be closing entire departments, so government employees can look for real jobs, private companies can prepare to replace government departments, & can hire the best x-government employees of their choice.

[@ComradeLaissezFaire]

Why weren't the mayor or any Cleveland city council members asked why the farmer's market and golf course can't be privatized?

[@wrxbungle]

1:56 LOL awesome.

[@Dpaladinx]

Privatizing the entire public school system. Having been to public schools for my entire life, I could say that private schools may have higher expectations on education in exchange for better education. I heard of a voucher option, I was wondering you guys think about that.

[@Kent41A]

The government should do what it does best, and only what it does best.

[@sniper6081]

Mises is one of the most respected economists to ever live as well as Soto and Hayek won the Nobel Prize for Economics. You can't just throw out those credentials just because you don't agree with them. The only reason why Cuba has yet to fall is because of all the foreign aid they get, but like you said, it won't last forever. Anyway, of course they know the way NASA does things. That doesn't mean they follow them. I didn't say anything regarding if I am naive or not. You brought it up.

[@bmadejczyk]

@Amidat You know your history. I know you are correct because I do too. Thank you for your objectivity. Too bad most people are not so clear-eyed.

[@sniper6081]

They have tons of videos on that. Check them out. They're listed with all their other uploads.

[@JR333JR]

If or anyone is interested in arguments about privatizing highways you should check out some Walter Block videos. It's good stuff.

[@TheAzov]

They already are: the best courts and government money can buy.

[@EderikSchneider1973USA]

Cities especially like big cities like Cleveland shouldn't be in the business of running Small Business's.

[@kittyprydekissme]

@SonnyTheWhiteDwarf Can those people actually say '..Government is not greedy' with a straight face? Wow.

[@ModernSurvivor]

@joepglass I don't like that people lose jobs in the process, but outsourcing (as well switching jobs over to machinery) is what keeps the quality of the life for the average American at such a high level. You can't handicap the economy (or slow progress) for the sake of jobs; if we did that then we'd still have horse-drawn carriages. Obviously you have to look at individual examples (I refuse to shop at Wal-Mart), but by and large this is a good thing. Employment is not the sole goal.

[@pdxyyz]

Selling off an asset for short term gain may not be the answer. What are the lost revenues going forward? In many cases the problem isn't the asset it is poor management and budgeting. That doesn't go away with the sell off.

[@spacemooseprime]

listen to the sub text "this is the money the government is generating out of the asset, look at how much more can be captured if you take into a private regime". It the usual american story: public risk (and development) and private gain.

[@ssn0651]

Go to any city . Look for city workers . Count the number of them working . Count the number or them watching . 3 to 1 , 4 to 1 ? Not just a Cleveland issue .

[@iketheranter9126]

Start cutting at the Top First. Cut Administrators 6 figure payouts before you come after the thousandaires...

[@RealTime88]

@llamaczar The videos turned me on to Reason magazine how ironic is that? I understand why it is good to have libertarian views. I am glad to see Drew Carey is so loyal to his home city. The coolest thing about Cleveland is the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame.

[@poop2poop2]

@circedge That only works in a system where business is protected by the government. In a true free market BP would have been hurt way worse because they would have picked up the entire tab. Free markets don't only look good "on paper." Ask the good people of Hong Kong how good their free market looks compared to neighboring China

[@natdavi]

I agree 100%. law enforcement is the government's job.

[@sniper6081]

Apparently, they are profitable because private space travel will be ready for use by next year. In fact, the industry only spent around 40 million dollars so far, which is nothing from a market standpoint. Also, different mathematical formulas for space travel? They don't exist. When going into space they need to ensure the integrity of the vehicle. It's all about structural soundness. How are they different? Oh sure, if wikipedia says it then it must be true.

[@RogerOnTheRight]

It is not clear privatizing education totally would improve education uniformly. That is because the greatest determinants of education success are parental involvement and commitment, not teachers. And getting rid of public schools would not address that. It is clear privatization would help those kids whose parents are committed to their kids, so it provides an avenue for some kids. It is also clear money is not the solution. We keep spending more and getting less on public education.

[@wreckingpress7080]

Not sure if I'd use Chicago's parking meters since 1. The city is losing several billions in revenue over the lease, and 2. It was Daley's last FU to the city and the taxpayers since he burned a billion dollar trying to get the olympics here since the olympics committee is a money pit 3. Chicago taxpayers are on the hook for any deficits on the operation on the meters. In order to avoid that the city is whom establishes the rates and areas in order to try and avoid that deficit and not the private company trying to compete with private garages. Your lawyer friend also didn't tell you about the first winter those dumb boxes that company put up the buttons would freeze, so you couldn't pay much of the time and tickets were issued like crazy and ended up costing the taxpayers even more thanks to class action lawsuits. Weee! Privatization is not always the answer.

[@sniper6081]

I wasn't appealing to authority. I was trying to show you that they are respected for their work and that is something. Foreign aid, from the UN. Lastly, the people at the X Prize looked at NASA and other government space programs and concluded that the public would never be able to use it due to the cost, so they started a competition for who could create affordable space technology that the public can use. Basically, they had to start from scratch because NASA tech was too expensive to use.

[@ledzep1234567]

somewhere there is a compromise. the government does a crappy job on the money end of things. yes we have the best military, great highway system, public schools are free for all, etc. But since money is no object, and many have jobs that they can not lose, there is no incentive to perform better. the other extreme is corporate america paying the ceo millions, and offering the working class crumbs. In the middle will be best for all.

[@davidsflooringco]

most privatization is good but you guys picked one of the worst examples with the chicago parking which they underleased it and lost tens of millions of revenue plus the rates went way up.

[@NoMoreBlatherDotCom]

I discuss this series at the following link (remove the spaces around the dot), and see the update for what Reason "forgot" to tell you about who bought the Chicago Skyway: 24ahead . com/n/9853 One of the major reasons why you can't trust Reason is because they keep "forgetting" to tell you things like that.

[@kev3d]

Vouchers are great. If the particular child is in a public school that performs well they can stay, otherwise the money "follows the student". The most important factors are competition and breaking down the union stranglehold on schools. I am AMAZED that so many "pro choice" left wingers oppose vouchers. Gone would be the debates from (religious) right wingers about "indoctrination" via evolutionary theory. Imagine what power that gives the parents.

[@sniper6081]

No, they're not. Public private partnership just means that public assets are sold to a private corporation and some of the money they make is given to the government, as in taxes.

[@peterwright5311]

"when you bring revenue in"... So all these things were made better by having money spent on them? And by being made able to charge for services presumably. So the people using the services are paying more for them (but *phew* it's not tax money, which is evil). Clearly this is nothing whatsoever to do with corporations doing things more efficiently. It is about having more money in services by charging the customers. Which the people who want to privatise everything refuse to do simply by raising taxes and by introducing market inefficiencies.

[@peterwright5311]

Fuck me. In Chicago prices for parking have clearly gone up - there's an open admission that the cost to the users has increased, but the video then crows about the benefits of 'competition' lmao. Followed by a disguised admission that staff all get pay-cuts of course.

[@peterwright5311]

It's pretty much summed up by the Indianapolis section. They save money and the quality goes up. How is this achieved? By private companies charging users significantly more for services that were previously paid for out of taxes. The people losing out are pretty obviously the customers.

[@docwatsonphd]

@joepglass Why should the rich be taxed so much more than everyone else?

[@sniper6081]

Privatization - there's more to the future than better technology.

[@truvelocity]

@whoo689 Monopolies are ONLY limited by government is when you want healthy competition. As you know, natural monopolies are government granted in a city when competing business slows down or impedes proper functioning of a new technology. Like, building pipelines for public water (natural monopoly). If too many companies interfered, it would slow down efficient pipelines. So, there are rare exceptions to every rule.

[@sniper6081]

@xkeltoix How do you know that? How do you know they would be far behind without NASA? Nobody could ever know that unless you could somehow pull a Back to the Future. And I'm curious, if you don't accept the economic theories proposed by the economists I mentioned what economics do you accept?

[@sniper6081]

No they're not and they don't have to be Government roads are terrible. They can't even get the potholes out. Then there are the constant traffic jams and if a car accident happens good luck. You could be stuck there for at least an hour.

[@sniper6081]

That's not corporatism though and that's favoring them. There's no intrinsic value in selling to corporations. It's business. Privatizing previously public assets is business.

[@sniper6081]

Verizon has great products. The new android, completely awesome. Also, I'm not making the assertion markets are better because markets are better. It can be easily observed that markets do better because they're forced to innovate. Governments don't have to worry about that. And I never said business always does good. That's where government comes in. It punishes businesses for any wrong doings with fines and imprisonment.

[@Amidat]

@bmadejczyk - kudos to ou... and yes it is very unfortunate

[@thinksimon]

It wasn't a RedFlex idea, so don't blame them. At least they wasted less money on this then publicly run program would.

[@sniper6081]

@xkeltoix Yeah, but those formulas existed for a very long time, like before the founding of our country. Does voluntary democracy require government? Oh I know this. It's cute isn't it? I like how it doesn't take into account how much disposal income people have, actual life expectancy, taxation, and mainly whether or not certain political initiatives took action, like universal healthcare, without look at the results of those programs. It's made by the UN. They're not reliable.

[@ModernSurvivor]

@joepglass But who shops at Wal-Mart? The lower classes. Putting tariffs on China will hurt the lower classes.

[@zacharyneilson9220]

ModernSurvivor 10 years later it is amazing how relevant this comment is. Another factor to consider is whether we want free trade with a country that actively undermines our freedoms and steals our intellectual property. Economically, I 100% agree no tariffs.

[@bigboss686]

xkeltoix it's funny watching you get completely pwned

[@oiuoiu988]

why dont they just get a golf czar???

[@sniper6081]

@xkeltoix Name calling. You're not very civil are you. Why the frustration? Now then, the only thing you need to do to make space travel safer is make a good spacecraft, which is no small feat, but still. And I wasn't referring to philosophers, I was referring to the scientists.

[@ASKconard]

The Chicago parking meters have been extremely controversial. Not a great idea, actually.

[@sniper6081]

Well the mathematical formulas are different for two specific reasons. One the shape of the space shuttle and the shape of Space ship 2 are completely different, second, if NASA's rocket fuel formula were used in Space Ship 2 it would explode. Those market systems are actually variations of the two different types of economic systems. They all have their roots in either central planning or free markets. And where did you here that last one from because you have to be out of your mind.

[@hsmith41]

@studio7manga They should just introduce a congestion charge like they have in London, UK and make public transport more reliable. Win/Win- Better yet, get some people in to run these services that do actually care about raising revenue, then they would not have to privatize and it would mean more money for the city. I agree that is seems like propaganda. Is there any such thing as an objective news report?

[@sniper6081]

Well, no. Corporatism is when legislation is passed to favor certain corporation over other businesses and individuals. This is just privatizing previously public assets.

[@sniper6081]

I know market behaviors change. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the laws of economics. Laws that cannot be changed by anyone. Secondly, I was referring to the technology in the private market. You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. The private market has taken a different path with its technology, one separate from NASA. The only thing they have in common are rockets, but those were invented by the Chinese. Everything else is custom.

[@Amidat]

@xkeltoix - and NASA used a lot of know how from the German government.

[@robertmike57]

LOL! I have seen the stats printed in a Michigan newspaper, sorry for no links. Sorry that I don't have the stats in front of me, but if you want to look up MEAP scores for different school districts, perhaps they are on a Michigan government website. Michigan does have better regs on charter schools than Arizona, what I've read, I would expect even worse results. Of course there are tenured incompentent teachers, just that the libertarian airhead solution is no solution.

[@Visfen]

@studio7manga I'd say the opposite, Reason's discussion is honest, it's the normal and general discussion that bring in the flat earth society and creationist to discuss a topic and treat them seriously. The argument against it btw is that they made a profit. So not only did the costs go down but they actually made money on it, and some people view that as wrong because they are insane.

[@sniper6081]

I guess the Greeks, Romans, and Chinese as well as English scientist from the Renaissance to the Enlightenment didn't exist then. Go figure. If it doesn't require government then it's a free market, though voluntary democracy would be impossible due to human nature. I didn't know what the HDI was. I knew the stats, but not the name. Anyway, it's not reliable for many reasons, but the big one is that they don't do any actual research. They just ask governments for the information.

[@sniper6081]

But government always does it right? It sounds more like you're basing your arguments on philosophy rather than facts. It really is quite convenient for me that you mentioned the PA turnpike because I have to use it everyday. It's very nice too. There's seldom any traffic jams and there are plenty of signs, nice and big too, that tell you where your exit is. As opposed to New Jersey for example where the signs are few and far between and microscopic along with the needless traffic jams.

[@puppetsock]

Is there like, snapping fingers and guitar music in the background of this series of vids? It's annoying.

[@sniper6081]

Oh sure, they're subjective, unless you study market behavior. Fine, ignore it, but that won't change economics. Anyway, let me say it again. The technology the space industry uses is their own. They developed their own technology from scratch or bought it from inventors who did it on their own. Most of today's space technology comes from the X Prize competition. You haven't even looked into this, you just assume. If that's the route you want to go then stop talking to me.

[@sugarkang]

No, there should just be more exposure on common sense thinking like this show.

[@flagship21]

so why run a business their???

[@EFTusa]

stop by Luzerne & Lackawanna Counties in PA if you want to corruption gone wild

[@Kane615]

Holy shit, Chicago actually privatized a toll bridges and parking meters? Those are amazing revenue generators and they gave them away. What a bunch of nobs. I bet the private sector 'efficiencies' involved raising tolls and tariffs which could have been done by the municipalities themselves.

[@johnbelt5204]

Private industry can do most jobs cheaper, more efficiently and with far more success than any government.

[@tcorourke2007]

The reason that private companies can generate so much more revenue from these assets is that the elected officials cannot raise the rates without being voted out of office. Parking rates downtown doubled overnight, no politician could do that and retain power. In the end, the deal was lousy and done in desperation, but the projected revenues were not attainable to the city either.

[@robertmike57]

LOL! Guess you didn't watch the movie or follow the news to appreciate what the OP was saying, you see Michael Moore and that's it. But I expect nothing more from ignorance.

[@sniper6081]

They wouldn't use formulas. This has o do with aerodynamics which you can thank the Wright Brothers for. The only place where I can see them using formulas is in their rockets, but like I said rocketry is much older than NASA. There are only two market systems, a centrally planned economy and a free market and centrally planned economies have failed abysmally time and time again. Not just over seas, but right here too. Just look at Cleveland; lot's of central planning and no prosperity.

[@sniper6081]

Don't drive on their roads then. Drive on someone else's.

[@Bigturns33]

Nothing wrong with partnership that is various owners, thats how capital is produced which provides "SOMETHING". You can have private partnerships competing with other private partnerships and the more capital produced means more production for a good and therefore a decrease in price because of competition. Your thought on corpratism is totally different you talking about corporations that fraud and price fix which wouldnt happen in a free market if peopel found out they would boycott.

[@sniper6081]

Is given money by tax payers? Thy own the roads and charge people for using them. Why, because they are providing a service to their customers. If you don't pay them for the service that's stealing. That's why you go to jail. Duh.

[@iketheranter9126]

Ok, so when it comes time to spend a couple of billion dollars to fix your water/sewer system, I suppose the private profiteers will throw in the money? Naw, that will be the public part...

[@sniper6081]

No, we're not.

[@dirtydave1889]

It COSTS......Amtrak $36.....to sell you a hamburger on a train for $8.......The Post Office hemorrhages money...when Fedex could do it......lol

[@turkenlegoflims]

Dirty Dave I mean if you ignore the fact that Fedex relies on USPS to deliver to rural customers whose routes they don’t feel like serving.……But it’s their fault for not living on a profitable road, right?…… lol

[@clintonw4203]

turkenlegoflims I live in the middle of nowhere more than 45 miles from the nearest FedEx or UPS hub, they deliver to me...

[@circedge]

@ConscientiousMind Really? Accountable? Is BP accountable to me somehow? Why don't I take BP and anyone else that screws me over to court, oh wait. I can't afford the lawsuits they'll be throwing at me. Free markets look good on paper and that's about it. When things are not in private hands, you get a lot more say than if you hold off paying a company, because private companies will just find new revenues or fire off workers.

[@sniper6081]

@xkeltoix All governments are the same because the same principles apply to all of them, like the "Law of Unintended Consequences" for example. I really do love that classic line. Our government can do national socialism, communism, central economic planning, or whatever, better than other governments. It's different for us. It's the same no matter where it is. And stop being ridiculous. Most of our technologies today came from the market, not NASA. Seriously, cut the shit.

[@sniper6081]

Obviously you didn't actually read what I wrote. All governments are the same in that they are all subject to the laws of economics. It doesn't matter what style of government it is. Second you clearly demonstrated that you have no clue about commercial space technology. Going back to Virgin again, their basic space technology was made by an inventor who won an X Prize competition. He and his team developed the technology which Virgin bought added a little of their own tech and opened shop.

[@paulforester6996]

You are on my radar as a traitor!

[@ayandas874]

You are on my radar as an inefficient idiot.

[@Shroommduke]

You haven't said anything that illustrates the folly of my assertions, please enlighten me, I'm all ears! (or eyes) What can you tell us about privatization, economics, democracy, civics and sovereignty? Keep facepalming...

[@theamericano33333]

oh yeah just saying this guess whose some of the unions best friends the mafia why do you think the slimeball's have survived so long

[@m0rthaus]

Haha. So, they privatize things like parking complexes and parking meters, and then big corporate lawyers like the one @4:00 go 'Hey, look at how much more money we can capture when this is privatized'. Where does that money come from - only one place, the public, paying higher fees for their parking. There are a few examples of successful privatization projects around the world that have ended up improving service levels and lowering costs, but there are a myriad of examples of the opposite - the same service for more cost. The only difference? Now the profits flow to corporate coffers instead of public ones. Beware of these suggestions to privatize public property and public services. Let's summarize the winners and losers: - big temporary windfall of cash for the current government that makes the sale (good for the politicians) - big payout to the lawyers and brokers who arrange the deal (good for the lawyers) - ongoing significant return to the corporations that take on the serivice/propery (good for the businessmen) - increased cost of services to the public (that's not good. Who cares if the parking meter now accepts a credit card if the cost is now doubled) - no takebacks! It's often very hard for the change to be reversed once the property is in private hands, as it is now revalued MUCH higher than when it was sold by the government

[@johnbelt5204]

That's all bullshit. Private industry does the job cheaper and better than government. I work in DC for a contractor that manages federal building maintenance. The private employees make better wages, gets rid of corruption and does the job better, cheaper and more efficiently.

[@sniper6081]

The only one here denying reality is you. Clearly you have not checked your facts. And private prisons are not the same as privatized roads mainly because prisons, as part of law enforcement, are one of the few functions of the state. Roads are not.

[@robertmike57]

Public golf courses have their place, not as if players don't pay to play on them, if they're taking tax money then the greens fees can be increased. They're designed for the middle class. Leave it to super rich guy Drew Carey to blow shit about public golf courses, he can golf at any country club in the country.

[@Individualism101]

This is really boring. PPPs are disgusting. It's just upgrading from socialism to fascism; Effectively throwing the government one more bone to keep it alive one more decade.

[@Amidat]

@xkeltoix - i seem to have similar views to you. I am not a liberal - nor am I a fan of government... but I also do believe that people "worship" the market. While watching the video and hearing him say that "privatization leads to more transparency" was laughable. I worked in a fortune 500 company as well as small business and there was PLENTY of hiding going on. And if it was all left up to companies... there would be much more pollution and we still wouldn't even have seat belts in cars!

[@ledzep1234567]

somewhere there is a compromise. the government does a crappy job on the money end of things. yes we have the best military, great highway system, public schools are free for all, etc. But since money is no object, and many have jobs that they can not lose, there is no incentive to perform better. the other extreme is corporate america paying the ceo millions, and offering the working class crumbs. In the middle will be best for all.