Problem of Evil | The Evidence Course | Session 3 / Part 5

[@ThoughtAdventurePodcast]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5CVo6Z6qM6Im7c For more discussion on the problem of evil watch the livestream on the subject. Link above.

[@rumi-]

Has anybody made a pdf/word file of everything brother Sharif has said?

[@TravelingPhilosopher]

The "problem" of evil is a problem for atheists since "evil" is an ubiquitously moral term with historical religious connotations. A world under philosophical naturalism would not have any true moral concept of "evil" because "evil" is a human construct which does not necessarily exists outside the domain of human relativity. Secondly, this argument put forth by Epicurus presupposes an anthropomorphic god that sees the world as we humans see it which is false because Allah is transcendent above space, time and we can never pragmatically know how that is like from an experiencial perspective. Thirdly, this argument presupposes that morality exists independently or outside God thereby either binding on Him or be a cause of judging Him but God is above our moral outlook. The moral values that God has legislated to us humans exist in the human sphere and everything God does is Good because He is the source of Goodness. If you combine Absolute Goodness, Love, Mercy, Wisdom, this world is an expression of that. The final point is that the existence of this life is predicated on it being a test to see how we react in circumstances. It is through trials that we grow psychologically, emotionally and spiritually and become better people. There is a hadith that speaks about how some people would wish on the day of judgement that their skins were cut because they can then see the reward of perseverance, patience and resilience. The existence of suffering or evil needs to be looked from the lens of the afterlife which put things into perspective, showing us things from a grand scheme. Everything is Good for the believer Alhamdulillah

[@michaelevans4110]

Ameen. Alhamdulillahi rabbi al'alameen

[@kmkalabed]

Beautifully summarized 👏👏

[@Akhan-di1gn]

BaarakAllah feekum. I know ur great channel bcz of Ustad Farid

[@HussainFahmy]

*_Our choice between good and evil is part of our free will._*

[@Tsuroproduction]

I think the problem of evil lays in terms ambiguity. From logic we know that terms can be univocal, analogical and equivocal. When we're sayning that "God is good" and "man is good" we're using "good" term in analogical way. Analogical means that term has partly the same meaning and partly different meaning. Like "good man" and "good horse". They both share some common goodness, but it is in other way different. Because man's goodness means good deeds or good manners, but horse's goodness means fastness or good health etc. I think when we are saying that God is good and man is good we're doing just the same thing. We're using analogical terms, and God's goodness and man's goodness is in some ways the same but in others the different. That means that we really don't know what goodness means for God. What is being good really means for Him. His goodness is not like ours. When horse is not fast, we might say that it's not good, but when we are talking about man his fastness has nothing to do with his goodness. Therefore we can't measure God's goodness with our understanding of man's goodness. Just my opinion. What do you think, brothers, about it?

[@hamnah9532]

I think that's a refreshing take on it mashaallah

[@abdulwaris596]

It is refutable => the point that he mentions about the side effects of certain actions and the existence of lesser evil instead of greater evil. because God is all powerful, and it means that he could Allow just for good and remove/eliminate all evil in this world. But he didn’t do so . Because the whole purpose of evil in this world is to test human beings. If there was no evil in this world, how would he test human beings? Whether someone is good or bad?, so the whole Purpose is to test human beings and that is why he Allowed for evil to exist in this world. And the rest, you know …

[@abdulkadirhassanahmed956]

Masha'Allah nice video

[@charlievaughan1308]

Travelling Philosopher. I am not an atheist. I am agnostic i have been thinking about the appaling suffering to humans and animals on this planet and also the appaling natural disasters. For me it is far more logical to live in a godless world with the appaling suffering, than it is to live in a world where an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenovelent God allows such appaling suffering.

[@hamisuhadejia3570]

MashaAllah

[@kayb76]

Salam brothers. Please invite Stephen Fry to a TAP podcast. JazaakumulLah khoiron

[@shassarahaman5247]

The example of a doctor giving a patient medication is flawed, I'm afraid. It's a false analogy. The doctor in this case is doing his best. The medication the doctor gives you knowing the side effects is simply the best he's got. If he could give any medication that can cure you without the side effects he would most certainly do that. If he he intentionally gives you any medication that will cause you pain before curing you even though he has one that can cure you without pains then he can be said to be evil or at least bad. So unless you're saying a world with evil and suffering the best God could come up with it's a false analogy. Salaam

[@Google_Was_My_Idea_nr.1]

Exactly, good point👍🏾

[@hamnah9532]

Agreed

[@TravelingPhilosopher]

"From the point of view of the Divine Reality, there is no evil be- cause there is nothing to be separated from the Source of the Good, but for human beings living in the domain of relativity, evil is as real as that domain, although creation in its ontological reality is good since it comes from God". -Taken from Seyyed Hossein Nasr's book 'The Garden of Truth'

[@shahinabdul6303]

Yeah I always had issue with Fry's example. 1, it is evil only from the pov of the human beings. 2. Lots of things are dangerous to human beings. For me it would be a greater evil to wipe out billions of creatures to suit Man. Lions, tigers, spiders, etc. Man is top of the food chain, and he is the only one ungrateful and complaining!

[@aniiss04]

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته Would it be possible that you could also make a seperate video in regards to some epistemic views grounded in philosophy namely Realism or Constructivism? As I am quite confused in terms of their stands on reality. May Allah bless you and JazzaakAllahu khairan

[@emkfenboi]

are you on clubhouse?

[@aniiss04]

@@emkfenboi No akhi, but I have discord

[@TheThe7oaks]

Salam alaikum warahmatu Allah wabarakatuh Could u make a podcast specifically about the linguistic miracle of the Quran.

[@ThoughtAdventurePodcast]

Wa aleykum mu selam wa rahmatuAllahi wa barakatuhu, stay tuned! ;)

[@abbasr.7422]

And why would Allah not be a subjective concept...so we could derive objective morality?

[@Google_Was_My_Idea_nr.1]

If you aren't biased then what measuring tool would you use to determine something good from something bad, all good vs all bad? If this tool is anything except æl Qur'ãn then logic dictates that æl Qur'ãn doesn't contain the tools for a good life, to become a better person, to provide answers for a better planet.

[@Google_Was_My_Idea_nr.1]

@Xpert diate Name calling 📞 brings you nowhere. If logic and rationality is required and presented then it is highly irrelevant what a (flag waving) mûhmeen thinks or wants. Intellectual dishonesty? Read æl Qur'ãn!!

[@prod.kenuthia]

The afterlife is just a bunch of false hope and false positivity that people live by to make themselves feel better and to cope with the harsh and nearly terrifying reality that it's almost certain that we are all going to face the same peaceful, empty nothingness when we reach the end of our lives, and be there for eternity. And no, your thousand-year-old book will not change my mind.

[@zainmushtaq4347]

Great video! I'm not sure if you're reading off a script/notes or not, but it seems so, and I'd just like to point out that you feel much more natural and easier to connect with when you're winging it, like in your debates :) Just a personal thought I'd like to share.

[@ThoughtAdventurePodcast]

It’s a course that was delivered almost two years ago and has been reuploaded onto the TAP channel.

[@matthewbardos4424]

5:53: If the doctor was omnipotent and could have used a side-effect free drug to get the same result, then yes, that would be evil lol.

[@Oneummahgeneration]

Soul building.

[@matthewbardos4424]

@@Oneummahgeneration I guess you saw Sunday's stream? Haha.

[@brahimz0r]

Not neccesarily, the side-effects have a reason in the greater picture, and in an atheist worldview you can't even justify why suffering is evil in the first place, you can't actually prove your statement is true which is basically "God could've cured without the side-effects therefor he is evil", and that also leads to the point that there isn't good without evil etc.. Then there's the counter-argument "The outcome of the person actually having witnessed the illness is better than if he never had it in the first place, in the form of better immunity etc.." i.e. the outcome of suffering could be extremely good, better than if he never had suffering Which shows your paradigm is flawed from the get-go You have alot of problems and I suggest you watch this; kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5CVo6Z6qM6Im7c

[@Oneummahgeneration]

@@matthewbardos4424 their shows are a great watch.

[@matthewbardos4424]

@@Oneummahgeneration No debate there haha. I have been a fan since the beginning, even if I disagree with almost everything they say lol.

[@AdrianMuslim]

✨💗✨

[@shassarahaman5247]

With regards to your point that atheists cannot term things like natural disasters as bad, I believe u misunderstand what atheists are saying. I don't believe atheists have problem accepting that nature I chaotic and indifferent towards living things. But when it's argued that nature is not indifferent and not chaotic but rather a perfect plan of God in execution then atheists say that's bad or evil. So atheists' claim these things are evil is dependent on the theists' claim that nature is planned and not random, chaotic and indifferent.

[@MrBebaslepas]

So basically it's like you waiting other people to make a claim about something so that you can come up with yours? is that really what you are trying to say?

[@shassarahaman5247]

@@MrBebaslepas not really. What I mean is, atheists bringing up morality and evil is to point out that alternative explanations of the existence of the world, like evolution and an indifferent nature fit the world we observe better than the religious explanation.

[@MrBebaslepas]

@@shassarahaman5247 "What I mean is, atheists bringing up morality and evil is to point out that alternative explanations of the existence of the world" Nope, Nope, you said it clearly that your world view is DEPENDENT ON THE THEISTS, here's what you said earlier...... "So atheists' claim these things are evil is dependent on the theists' claim that nature is planned and not random, chaotic and indifferent."

[@arandomguy83yearsago46]

You and the three other Muslims should debate CosmicSkeptic or Matt Dilliahunty

[@Alb0z32]

Dillahunty blocked them. I would want to see the one with cosmicskeptic aswell

[@batman-sr2px]

@@Alb0z32 why'd he block them?

[@Alb0z32]

@@batman-sr2px They were saying in one episode that they might invite him, and then he blocked them on twitter

[@socratesson4320]

You said "greater good" ...When in fact is "greatest good" God being the best possible being. Lets say the world was just Hell ...Is this the greatest possible good? No The greatest good implies a thin line of possibility in the middle. Certainly you cannot argue that thin line includes insects eating eyeballs.

[@matthewbardos4424]

19:42...oh boy. Yikes.

[@ri_sha]

Matt you're not even trying. If you want to understand theist/muslims you should humble yourself. You really think that you have the knowledge and you can "destroy" or "dismantle" a 1400+ year old religion which is based on reason with your weak arguments... Really this is a advice, I see you as a brother in humanity and I wish you only the best because every soul will taste death and I'm 100% sure that we all will stay in front of him and will be held accountable for our actions including ignorance and arrogance...

[@matthewbardos4424]

@@ri_sha Trying what? Just pointing out the egregious contradiction at 19:42 compared to what was said on the stream. 1400 years old and only 23% of the world buys it and within it there are countless schools and even a great divide between Sunni and Shi'ite. They believe in angels and demons and winged horses but cant demonstrate this. They think they know how the entire cosmos works, even as we learn new things every day. They lack humility, not I. In fact, I keep arguing for epistemological humility.

[@ri_sha]

@@matthewbardos4424 what is the contradiction... You still didn't understand the islamic basic beliefs of Qadr/predestination but you're trying to argue against it... You're strawmanning because no one is believing the thing you're arguing against...

[@matthewbardos4424]

@@ri_sha 19:42 "we view life as a test about whether we fulfill Allah's commandments or disobey. " During Sunday's stream "maybe the point of the test is soul building." We kept debating this on the stream now he is changing his story (I know this was prerecorded). Did you watch the stream? I am on my phone cant pull the exact quote.

[@ri_sha]

@@matthewbardos4424 I'll wait.

[@socratesson4320]

First issue i detect is that you present the problem of evil as a deductive argument. The problem of evil more properly refers to God being highly unlikely as the world seems to be a better fit to the evolutionary model instead of consciousness being at the centre of reality. -- The “greater good” defense doesn’t work because “greater” implies a framework God operates within. Puppets seek greater good… The puppeteer just seeks entertainment. Not good. Even if God achieves “greater good,” God is still not a moral agent. Moral agents have empathy. God making the conditions for a serial killer to chop children in pieces has lost his soul even if he achieves greater good.

[@jandewakker1748]

Do you like elaborating on your first point? Do you mean God can't be true due to the problem of evil and evolution is a better explanation it therefor God is not possible? If that is the case, then what caused this evolutionary model to exist?

[@MansMan42069]

Used to like Stephen Fry. Then he turned out to be such an arrogant dunce.

[@socratesson4320]

The world will end and for trillions of years the experiment God calls "life" will be just a memory. What part of God character this memory is meant to fill? Haven't God seen all the scenarios in his mind 1 trillion times? So when you say "good" its not from Gods perspective is from a human perspective. Hardships build our character ...Good needs bad to make sense but even that has its limits. The evil we see in this world can be totally sick not the "redemption type" or the "learning type" ...The TYPE of evil we see in this world fails your hypothesis.

[@jandewakker1748]

Do you have some examples of these evils that don't fit their hypothesis? The only ones I can think of are results of free will.

[@habasoosy2202]

What evidence or even what logical reasons do you think that for "trillions of years this expirement called life will be just a memory " Are you admitting there is heaven and he'll for eternity and that God exists? From your answer it sounds like you believe in God but your just mad at him?.... lol Astaghfurallah

[@matthewbardos4424]

@@jandewakker1748 childhood cancer?

[@jandewakker1748]

@@matthewbardos4424 Isn't that the same as a natural event? Would you consider adulthood cancer less evil? I understand what you mean though. I sometimes wonder what would have to change in the world for cancer to be an impossibility. But that would be a thought experiment that is too difficult for a lay person like me.

[@matthewbardos4424]

@@jandewakker1748 under the atheistic world view, it would be naturally occurring event. And although most atheists would call it "bad" because it causes the egregious suffering of an innocent person, it arguably would not be called "evil," as evil implies teleology/a moral actor, at least under some definitions. Under the Islamic worldview, there is always telos, because Allah is in control of everything, so he caused the cancer. He is supposed to be omnipotent and maximally perfect, AND has the ability to create universes like heaven/paradise where, presumably, there is no cancer etc. So if that is true, then why is there is cancer, and why don't we just "start" in heaven if this god truly loves us? I conclude he is either evil or non-existent, and for additional but unrelated reasons, I am inclined towards the latter option.

[@ronakram6690]

MashaAllah