Problem with Big Gun Big Ship Doctrine (Gundam U.C. Timeline)

Explanation as to why the Earth Federation Space Forces took the wrong approach after the One Year War. #gundam
Credits
Narrated by Ame
Music:
Arial Ascent by Cosmo Lawson www.premiumbeat.com
Orpheus by Cosmo Lawson www.premiumbeat.com

[@SwiftGundam]

M-Particles. Its what lead to the downfall of the big gun and the rise of Mobile Suits. General Revil of the Earth Federation compared what transpired in Loum as when fighters were introduced in WW2, destroying the touted unsinkable battleships.

[@TustlePlays]

While still correct, would have thought Minovskies were the reason why they went _back_ to the Dreadnought policy of warship combat in the first place within the UC: don't M-Particles interfere with tracking weapons like missiles? So in order to get around that and to get back the striking power of guided warheads, they started designing space battleships. Then to counter the space battleships, Zeon kickstarted the design of the military MS. One thing leads to another, and soon both sides start fielding battlecruisers with MS catapults and stowage. ...suppose at that point the only reason nobody extends the range of, upscales, and mounts GP02A's main gun in place of the cannons on a ship's turret is because they take the Geneva Convention seriously enough to refrain from that. And or don't want to become a star very briefly in case MS countermeasures fail to stop their foe.

[@SwiftGundam]

@@TustlePlays not exactly. Spreading M-Particles in the area as a combat strategy was not a thing prior to the OYW. As the Federation relied on guided munitions and such related weaponry in offense/defense. Zeon were the first to utilize that as part of their initiative to think outside of what was considered conventional warfare pre-OYW UC. Post-OYW, there were conservative groups in the Federation that wanted to return to the old ways of big ships with big guns. Then Gato launch a nuke with the stolen GP02 for his ‘mhh ideals’ and the rest is history.

[@TustlePlays]

@SwiftGundam hullnuts, remembering everything wrong...thought both sides were using M Particles for their reactors and Zeon was just the first to find an effective way around their disruption. Based on what I've read it's all Zeon who developed the Minovsky micro reactor to boot.

[@SwiftGundam]

@@TustlePlays both side were using M-particles in the containing the nuclear reaction process. Remember, in UC the helium-3/deuterium reaction creates M-particles as a byproduct. Leading to the creation of beam weaponry and such. Zeon was the first to use the particle as an ECM. And they were the ones to design a reactor small enough for a mobile suit.

[@BlitzkriegOmega]

@@TustlePlays What Zeon did in the Battle of Loum was considered *completely insane* because so much of battleship communication and munitions were based on wireless communications. M-Particles were kept in airtight containers as to avoid the ECM effect and ruin their weapons and comms array. And then these crazy Spacemen dumped a bunch of the stuff in the middle of space as *actual combat strategy* and they literally could not adapt.

[@lostShadowLord]

What actually funny is that Loam was actually the battle that lost Zeon the one year war. As it leveled the playing field in Mobile suits, due to the loses Zeon took. It also give Zeon 'Victory disease', which resulted in Zeon being slow to change logistic things.

[@Soloong_Gaybowzer]

Yeah but the real moment they lost the war was when they dropped the first colony. Which occured only a few days before the Battle of Loam. They gassed everyone in the colony, tried to drop it on Dublin Ireland (Feddie HQ). Most of it ended up hitting Sydney Australia with other pieces breaking off and hitting other places. Created a huge environmental disaster that ended up killing billions on earth. Zeon lost all sympathizers on earth and most of it's sympathizers within neutral colonies. It even stirred up rebellions in colonies that previously supported Zeon. At that very moment they went from being the "righteous underdog" to "Space Nazis".

[@bobsterclause342]

I'd love to see a series where the gundums finally are on the back foot and are sturgling in every fight. and ahs become reactionary rather than inventive and cutting edge Have You watched the expanse? so many rail gun shots that you can't even hit ships with rail guns or nukes and they manuver to avoid 20% speed of light insanity so their buble of daka has more projectiles per volume than the stuff they are dodging and maybe some they ccan't. it's like the only reason the ships can't hit targets is because the military industrial complex and polotics is flawed I would love to see rocket powered truets that have an arc that you simply are not fast enough to dodge because the outside of the circe moves faster , in fact, you can exced the speed of light virtually, but a dodger would still be screwed, as the turret can have its beam far enough out cover more distance if you were to pretend that the linegoes the speed of light without loopholes which is something a gundam can simply not do, meaning you simply would not b able to out manuver a turret at far enough rangers, not even a slow one with can't shoot down an x-wing slowness

[@TheBigExclusive]

Zeon didn't seem to take any losses on screen. Not a single Zaku was shot down in Origin or in Igloo. Zeon lost the war because of infighting and gave the Federation a change to Rebuild and regroup

[@arx3516]

Zeon could have never won an all-out war. Degwin knew that too, that's why he met with Revil to negotiate a truce favourable to Zeon. That's how Zeon could win.

[@magellatheattacktank964]

It was just the Fleet in Being doctrine adopted by the British Empire in the early 1900s at the beginning of the Anglo-German naval arms race ie for every 1 battleship the Germans built the British would build 3 more Battleships. The Doctrine fell out of favor after the Second World War when mass carrier air strikes could deal the same amount of damage as a fleet of battleships but at a fraction of the cost and triple the distance. The Federation's top brass take a wrong lesson from the One Year War but they at least learn after getting nuked by their own nuke.

[@user-xb1wh5mt4l]

The Fleet in Being doctrine is not about Britain outbuilding Germany. The idea of the Fleet in Being isn't limited to Britain. Every naval power at the beginning of the XX century followed the idea of Fleet in Being - the idea that the strategic potential of a large navy extends beyond its actual participation in combat. Essentially, it's the concept of nuclear deterrence, but in another time and another strategic weapon.

[@Ushio01]

A aircraft carrier could not deliver as much firepower as a battleship could in a set period of time but an aircraft could deliver a larger first strike much further. The thing is you have to take into account of aircraft capability as well. The USN's newest dive bomber in 1938 was the Curtiss SBC Helldiver biplane that had a maximum bomb load of 1000lbs the same as dive bombers introduced in 1930 the newest was just a little faster with a little more range. In 1940 the newly introduced Douglas SBD Dauntless could carry a 2000lb bomb that's the equivalent of a 16inch battleship shell while the 1000lb bomb of the previous dive bomber was the equivalent of a WW1 13inch battleship shell. The battleships the US built in WW2 were designed in 1936/37 when 1000lb bombs had been the biggest aerial threat for over half a decade. The rapid evolution of bomber and attack aircraft between 1935-45 was orders of magnitude greater than seen in the previous decade. While aircraft did improve to around 1960 well that's when the F-4 Phantom entered service and is still in use today and it's not like weapon carrying capacity has changed much since then because well who needs it in a fighter sized aircraft.

[@giftedmonster5293]

The ideal is to basically be able to strike from beyond detection range. During WW1 and WW2, some ships deliberately flooded some of their compartments to tilt the ship so as to increase the parabolic arc their shots could take. Which is a fucking terrifying concept when you think about it.

[@magellali1623]

The idea is terrifying but it's done in prepare and control settings which is actually not as dangerous with most of the battleships design post world war 1 actually design special compartment for flooding while it's design as a torpedo defense (damage below waterline=flooding) and usually meant for counter flooding. The flooding your ship for more elevation is use exclusively for shore bombardment and not against other warship like how USS Texas flood almost half of the ship to give the main gun more elevation during the Normandy landing.

[@giftedmonster5293]

@@magellali1623 Oh, it is hellishly situational and it requires very specific design. But that's the point. Let's say the enemy knows the max range of the main guns of your ship. They set up command and control in what they think is a safe zone...and then bombardment. It quite literally turns the enemy knowledge against themselves.

[@Plaprad]

@@giftedmonster5293 That was the USS Texas during Operation Overlord. The Germans set up an ammo dump just outside of the range of the bombardment group. The Captain of the Texas ordered ballast tanks filled to get another mile or so range to hit it. Another little thing was in the Pacific. By mid war pretty much every US warship had the 5"/38 as it's primary anti air battery. Short barrels meant shorter ranges and the few experienced Japanese pilots left knew how close they could get. Then the Brits got to where they could send their ships out there. The Brits used the 5.25 inch Mark 1 with 50 cal barrel, meaning it had a slightly greater range. There are several stories of Japanese pilots taking up new recruits for an attack and holding them "just outside range" for an attack when the sky suddenly got very angry. They didn't realize the Brits used a larger gun with longer barrel.

[@giftedmonster5293]

@@Plaprad I just love that you describe anti aircraft fire as "angry sky." Love it. I suppose it's quintessentially the same as firing a shell and using a planet to slingshot it for both greater speed and to attack from an oblique angle.

[@Plaprad]

@@giftedmonster5293 Unfortunately I can't claim that one. Had a flight over Afghanistan where we had several MANPADs fired at us. While we were popping flares and maneuvering the Nav stated that the sky was awfully angry today. It stuck.

[@markfreeman4727]

haven't been excited by a channel like this since the templin institute

[@seanbigay1042]

It really all depends on how advanced the Mobile Suits in question are. At one end of the power scale, the Suits we see in "008th MS Team" are little more than glorified tanks -- useful enough, but not so potent as to be game-changing. At the other end, Suits like the Freedom from "Gundam SEED," the Unicorn from "Gundam Unicorn" and the 00 Raiser from "Gundam 00" are virtually cybernetic superheroes with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal tech whose stories are all about how they shatter the status quo.

[@holyordersol2668]

That is true, but this video is mainly covering the advent of mobile suits in the early Universal Century. Alternate universe mobile suits, especially super high performance prototypes like the latter ones you mentioned, have uncharacteristically & grossly disproportionate capability compared to standard mechanized weapons of their era.

[@TheTrueAdept]

It depends on the timeline (and, in a few cases, *_WHEN_* in said timeline). UC is basically broadly Physics+ in this regard, with some exceptions (like coughnewtype BScough). Please note that everyone in UC uses fusion rockets, likely using hydrogen (which anyone who isn't a worshiper of the Hydrogen Master Race will tell you is just horrid for propellant; you're better off using *WATER* instead) propellant. The MS was explicitly designed to minimize dV expenditure, mind you.

[@leoismaking]

The GMs and Gundam Ground Types from 08th MS team were already superior to the Zaku IIs Zeon used, very successfully, to kill capital ships many types their size. Worse, Mobile Suits would evolve rapidly, while the "big gun" ships didn't seem to receive proportional upgrades or any real counters to the MS - other than increasing ability to carry their own MS.

[@ashaide]

It's crazy how not even a squadron of GMs were present during the Fleet Review. The EFSF just ended a war where mobile suits played a pivotal role, and the MS the Federation built was key. They knew a new model of that MS was stolen, and it was the one carrying a nuclear cannon. Sure, it was being chased, but would it have hurt to station maybe a small force of GMs in the vicinity of the Fleet Review? If nothing but to put a significant speed bump to Anavel Gato so Kou and the Full Burnien can catch up?

[@Hexterguard99]

I’m going to get a lot of flak for this question of mine. But do the mobile suits obey the laws of physics?

[@tankmanlexman0183]

No, they don't. They don't obey just physics, but also everything else.

[@nathanwhitmore3980]

Nope. They obey the rule of cool.

[@TheTrueAdept]

... depending on which timeline, partially to no. UC is more in the former camp than the latter.

[@tuckerodonnell9269]

Ms where the start of carrier doctrine yes big ship big gun is pretty useless in uc when ms exsist

[@thadiusbarnelsnatch3665]

If you look at modern real world fleet doctrine for a country like the US while we may no longer use battleships we do still have ships capable of ship to ship and support fire roles. This is because while a super carrier can carry a large sum of planes and munitions for the planes it lacks methods of protecting itself from an attack from multiple threats at once. Also given that for planes carrying out a mission for every kilo In their strike package the shorter their range being able to get as close to the necessary to be able to effectively and safely launch the operation they need the carrier. The same would be true for mobile suits. While mobile suits would be extremely effective at assaulting enemy fleets and positions they would also have operational times dictated by the amount of fuel they can carry and the weight of the package equipped to the mobile suit, at least when operating in space. This means that yes carriers would be necessary but so would larger ships more specialized in ship to ship combat since they would be needed to defend carrier groups by engaging enemy ships and providing defensive screens. No one design is the best instead a number of shops with specialized and designated roles would be best.

[@KageRyuu6]

In a more realistic setting the Big Gun Big Ship doctrine would be the only viable space doctrine as until we unlock Cold Fusion the Rocket Equation will dictate the size of spacecraft, that being Bigger is Always Better, as they have more fuel to accelerate making them faster and giving them the necessary operational range to have any impact in an interplanetary conflict. Now assuming we accept all of Gundam's Magi-tech nonsense, Big Ships and Big Guns are still needed, albeit on two separate but codependent platforms with the former serving as transport for the latter, ie Carrier Doctrine which is the basis for the show. Though realistically Missile Ships would probably be far more deadly as a Missile by its very design would be more maneuverable and quicker than any manned spacecraft, think Macross Missile Massacre.

[@Cuteseals2]

do missiles just not exist in gundam

[@gundamvsmacross1999]

They do exist but usually some in-universe tech or nonsense interferes with guided missiles (which we can assume make most of their arsenal) leaving only unguided missiles which likely are only useful in very short range battles.

[@clpfox470]

I remember reading atleast in the UC universe during the oyw, the EF was using wire guided anti-ship missiles. (Very scaled up tow launcher)

[@GP01Zephy217]

The ships and Mobile Suits are powered by Minovsky Ultracompact Fusion Reactors, those reactors are "clean" and produce little to zero radiation however, whenever they burn Helium-3 particles they produce a phenomenon known as the "Minovsky Effect". I have taken a paragraph from the Gundam Wiki citing the 𝘎𝘶𝘯𝘥𝘢𝘮 𝘊𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘶𝘳𝘺, 𝘔𝘚 𝘦𝘯𝘤𝘺𝘤𝘭𝘰𝘱𝘦𝘥𝘪𝘢 2003 as a source: "𝘛𝘩𝘦 𝘮𝘢𝘪𝘯 𝘶𝘴𝘦 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘔𝘪𝘯𝘰𝘷𝘴𝘬𝘺 𝘱𝘢𝘳𝘵𝘪𝘤𝘭𝘦 𝘸𝘢𝘴 𝘪𝘯 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘣𝘢𝘵 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘶𝘯𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯. 𝘞𝘩𝘦𝘯 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘔𝘪𝘯𝘰𝘷𝘴𝘬𝘺 𝘱𝘢𝘳𝘵𝘪𝘤𝘭𝘦 𝘪𝘴 𝘴𝘱𝘳𝘦𝘢𝘥 𝘪𝘯 𝘭𝘢𝘳𝘨𝘦 𝘯𝘶𝘮𝘣𝘦𝘳𝘴 𝘪𝘯 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘰𝘱𝘦𝘯 𝘢𝘪𝘳 𝘰𝘳 𝘪𝘯 𝘰𝘱𝘦𝘯 𝘴𝘱𝘢𝘤𝘦, 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘱𝘢𝘳𝘵𝘪𝘤𝘭𝘦𝘴 𝘥𝘪𝘴𝘳𝘶𝘱𝘵 𝘭𝘰𝘸-𝘧𝘳𝘦𝘲𝘶𝘦𝘯𝘤𝘺 𝘦𝘭𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘳𝘰𝘮𝘢𝘨𝘯𝘦𝘵𝘪𝘤 𝘳𝘢𝘥𝘪𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯, 𝘴𝘶𝘤𝘩 𝘢𝘴 𝘮𝘪𝘤𝘳𝘰𝘸𝘢𝘷𝘦𝘴 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘳𝘢𝘥𝘪𝘰 𝘸𝘢𝘷𝘦𝘴. 𝘛𝘩𝘦 𝘔𝘪𝘯𝘰𝘷𝘴𝘬𝘺 𝘱𝘢𝘳𝘵𝘪𝘤𝘭𝘦 𝘢𝘭𝘴𝘰 𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘧𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘴 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘰𝘱𝘦𝘳𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘴 𝘰𝘧 𝘦𝘭𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘳𝘰𝘯𝘪𝘤 𝘤𝘪𝘳𝘤𝘶𝘪𝘵𝘳𝘺 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘥𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘳𝘰𝘺𝘴 𝘶𝘯𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘵𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘦𝘥 𝘤𝘪𝘳𝘤𝘶𝘪𝘵𝘴 𝘥𝘶𝘦 𝘵𝘰 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘱𝘢𝘳𝘵𝘪𝘤𝘭𝘦𝘴' 𝘩𝘪𝘨𝘩 𝘦𝘭𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 𝘤𝘩𝘢𝘳𝘨𝘦 𝘸𝘩𝘪𝘤𝘩 𝘢𝘤𝘵 𝘭𝘪𝘬𝘦 𝘢 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘶𝘰𝘶𝘴 𝘦𝘭𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘳𝘰𝘮𝘢𝘨𝘯𝘦𝘵𝘪𝘤 𝘱𝘶𝘭𝘴𝘦 𝘰𝘯 𝘮𝘦𝘵𝘢𝘭 𝘰𝘣𝘫𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘴. 𝘉𝘦𝘤𝘢𝘶𝘴𝘦 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘸𝘢𝘺 𝘔𝘪𝘯𝘰𝘷𝘴𝘬𝘺 𝘱𝘢𝘳𝘵𝘪𝘤𝘭𝘦𝘴 𝘳𝘦𝘢𝘤𝘵 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳 𝘵𝘺𝘱𝘦𝘴 𝘰𝘧 𝘳𝘢𝘥𝘪𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯, 𝘳𝘢𝘥𝘢𝘳 𝘴𝘺𝘴𝘵𝘦𝘮𝘴 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘭𝘰𝘯𝘨-𝘳𝘢𝘯𝘨𝘦 𝘸𝘪𝘳𝘦𝘭𝘦𝘴𝘴 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘶𝘯𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘴𝘺𝘴𝘵𝘦𝘮𝘴 𝘣𝘦𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘦 𝘶𝘴𝘦𝘭𝘦𝘴𝘴, 𝘪𝘯𝘧𝘳𝘢-𝘳𝘦𝘥 𝘴𝘪𝘨𝘯𝘢𝘭𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘥𝘦𝘧𝘳𝘢𝘤𝘵𝘦𝘥 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘪𝘳 𝘢𝘤𝘤𝘶𝘳𝘢𝘤𝘺 𝘥𝘦𝘤𝘳𝘦𝘢𝘴𝘦𝘴, 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘷𝘪𝘴𝘪𝘣𝘭𝘦 𝘭𝘪𝘨𝘩𝘵 𝘪𝘴 𝘧𝘰𝘨𝘨𝘦𝘥. 𝘛𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘣𝘦𝘤𝘢𝘮𝘦 𝘬𝘯𝘰𝘸𝘯 𝘢𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦 "𝘔𝘪𝘯𝘰𝘷𝘴𝘬𝘺 𝘌𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘤𝘵"." - 𝘎𝘶𝘯𝘥𝘢𝘮 𝘊𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘶𝘳𝘺, 𝘔𝘚 𝘦𝘯𝘤𝘺𝘤𝘭𝘰𝘱𝘦𝘥𝘪𝘢 2003 This is why in Gundam they explicitly mention "Combat Level Minovsky Partile Density" meaning that most forms of communications, targeting acquisition systems, and other crucial systems are now vulnerable and they must change to one of their backup systems like "Laser Communication" which varies depending on the series for example the series "MS Igloo" it's a form of Morse code using the mono-eye of the Zaku to convey a command or message, while in The Origin and Gundam Unicorn as well as most of the Gundam series have a wireless version where they are able to transmit data over a secured way that involved a series of sensors and receivers. (It's a bit difficult to explain, but if you go and look around KZbin for a video or clips of the EWAC Jegan in Gundam Unicorn, it showcases partially how they communicate.) Despite all the in-universe explanation, I believe our modern missile technology has already surpassed the vulnerability of EMP jamming, and/or modern tactics have made EMPs not as big as a problem as in during the Cold War. But as for Gundam Lore, missiles are obsolete, which is why they either use unguided missiles or ones that are pre-programmed. (Or so I believe)

[@WolfeSaber9933]

​@@gundamvsmacross1999 It's the Minoski particles. Sorry if I misspelled the name.

[@Justowner]

The fusion reactor technology of Gundam creates a by-product radiation call Minovsky particles. It functionally jams pretty much every form of EM signal, and in high enough concentrations will even cause visible light to start distorting, thus you have an issue where all targeting is basically done through optical devices, but in the biggest fights, your extreme range accuracy is also degraded. Similarly, electronics of any kind which are not sufficiently hardened against Minovsky particles are also damaged when exposed to them. Thus, the computers available to them are not as high performance as they otherwise could be because they have to be rugged beyond rugged just to function. The writers of Gundam knew giant robots dont actually make sense, but with the right confluence of technological limitations, they can become justified.

[@murderouskitten2577]

problem with Gundam is that they basicly took insperation from aircraft in ww2. What they did NOT take into acount is that when 120 planes attacked an average battleship that had good AA and AA fire control ( North Caroline for examople ) and its escorts , then at BEST 10 planes would survive to drop their payload on the ship , and maybe 5 will survive the battle . One an see that nobody with working brains has been no where NEAR the designs of Space Warships in Gundam . It is Very easy to strap on some PDW on Salamis or Magelan class. and by some , i mean ALL of them. Having said all this , i will be following htis chanel with interst . And hopefully it wont go the extra credits and templin institute way :D

[@cardinal2921]

But ships have aa guns. Its just that they cant be automated and are mostly manned because of the interference of minovsky partcles. This is also the reason why missles against ms in uc arent that popular and effective. Minovsky particles + mobile suits omni directional movement and attack range made it extremely difficult to defend against them.

[@murderouskitten2577]

@@cardinal2921 volume of fire in sufficent amounts is bound to hit sothing out of pure luck.

[@theloweffortchannel7211]

@@murderouskitten2577 Another problem is that the AA guns explicitly aren't enough to kill mobile suits in short order. The main beam cannons can, but has another, very obvious issue in elevation rate.

[@cardinal2921]

@@murderouskitten2577 thats just too impratical as that would need a total redesign of the ship plus it needs to carry more ammo and crew for the guns. aa guns on ships were never designed for countering ms thats why the feds got rekt on loum. But then on the later stages of oyw and on later UC why would ships need additional aa guns when theyre fielded out with ms or even mobile pods.

[@hinafishikiyamatunadorithe8583]

it's because these ships lacks affective AA defensive networks and effective AA doctrine they have too many big guns and lack point defense weapon, the reason for why American fighters in the later ww2 stages were very effective was because japan didn't have proximity fuses and after the loss of midway Japanese maritime superiority was gone. Big gun Ship doctrine is good if the ship is big enough, in the confines of space the only limitations are conventionalities, treaties, legislation's and the proportion of human engineering, if we ever gonna fight an alien race in space it gonna be like halo space battles, absolutely heavy losses for us vs few losses on their part because they have bigger ships, carriers yea they gonna help indeed but if they have superior technology than us they would have better AA networks so in that case fighters are gonna be almost useless, big gun big ship doctrine is not an obsolete doctrine, it's only obsolete for us because we are limited to human conventions.

[@thealternativeproject]

Ares puttin in the work! Keep it up mate!!

[@aresacademy2]

Thank you! Looking forward to your next vid.

[@thealternativeproject]

@@aresacademy2

[@bully056]

Honestly? I think it's a little bit of both. The issue you run into is Stubborn Warhawks stuck in their ways and slow to adapt, The Large Gun Large Ships are STILL needed, but only as counters the the Enemy Large Ship Large Gun and only in Few Numbers. The Goal should have been Hybrid Battlecruiser/Carrier Ships, with Larger amounts of Dual Purpose Weapons and Emplacements.

[@TheTrueAdept]

... no, the sad reality is that the competent leaders in that universe tend to either die (either via enemy action or their own side stabbing them in the back) or get completely sidelined. So, pure incompetence is to be expected.

[@tankorrsmash]

Another critical design failure with capital ships was the lack of command redundancy such as a battle bridge in the event the main bridge was lost

[@Nikarus2370]

Yeah, none of the Gundam series have done a particularly great job of designing ships in universe to even fight eachother, let alone mobile suits. They've gotten a little better over the years but still aren't great. (not that I dislike the ships, Gundam's got some great space warship aesthetic designs... they're just terrible in universe despite obviously having the tech to do better)

[@TheTrueAdept]

The problem is that beam weapons make redundancy completely and utterly useless. No amount of compartmentalization is going to save your rear if one of the main weapons its facing is a *_MATTER DISINTERGRATOR_* that can do things, like oh, _go through entire mountains (as in legit miles of hard rock)_ like it was nothing in a single blast (and said beam weapon was the equivalent of a Musai class's main battery in its entirety).

[@user-mu5mi7ep2u]

yes, its like the WW2 IRL scenario big ship big guns doctrice via IJN didnt last long after the sinking of great yamato, like the modern IRL now a carrier and a cruisers make more sense than making a new jersey type calls BB serviceable in a modern naval warfare

[@YandereENjoyer4469]

Space battle Yamato is enough for most mobile suites

[@silverthorngoodtree5533]

The issue it is anime logic. The gundam is too strong for its size. Just attach the same power source o order of magnitudes bigger and bingo, you have a mobile suit battleship.

[@xtradi]

Most redundancy without unmanned is on a single seat fighter/bomber/mobile suit. A large ship that needed multiple personnel is just not good enough with attrition unless 100% invincible

[@ahnafahmed5928]

Honestly, I don’t think the EFSF fleet doctrine was wrong, the fleets in orgin were mult-role. Battleships, cruisers, at least 1 dedicated missile ship, not sure if classified as a frigate or Destroyer, and carriers. Offense, defense and versatility. The fleet is superior. It’s just that the Mobile suit is a superior platform to Fighters with M-particle interference. No BVR missile strikes. They could not defend the fleet in CQB range. If the fighters could have defended the EFSF long enough for them to destroy the Zeon ships, the MS force would have to surrender because there is no way they could reach a colony before their Life support ran out.

[@Uncle_Dru]

The Zion faction has plot armor and the power of pathos. It is very difficult to oppose this with anything from a logical point of view. Zeon basically only loses when faced with an equivalent level of plot armor and pathos. Change my mind )

[@chrisbacon3071]

Admiral Fisher would not be please with this video... He REALLY like's his big gun battle ships...

[@rman88]

Ya.... this opening is not really correct. As the idea of warships in general are a complicated one. As one could argue the idea of a Large carrier is pointless when it comes to ships armed with Anti ship warheads. Really the issue isn't the "Big ship Big gun". The issue is these ships lacks the support weapons to deal with in this case Mobile suits. As most modern warships come equipped with anti air and anti missile capabilities. Mobile suits are in a way hard to hit with convention Anti air or Anti missle systems. That said the UEF ships Vastily out played the Zeon ones. Leading them to create a doctrine of Ship vs Ship and mobile suit vs mobile suit. Where the idea of a Jack of all trades or a Multi role ship was nonexistent. You can compare this to say how they handle mobile suits. The GM being a basic mobile suit in order to counter the Zaku 2. Yet the Zaku 2 has a far greater multi role capability as they are always seen outfitted with multiple different weapons. While the Gm rarely has anything outside of a basic assault rifle or beam rifle. Same goes with say the Guntank, which is a dedicated fire support mobile suit. While the Guncannon is more of a mid range support unit or sniper. Being equipped with shoulder cannons and a beam rifle. They all are forced in a specific role. Same could be said with their navy. Now was it effective? Well when it comes down to it the yes as Zeon relied far to much on prototype mobile suits and mobile armor. As they lacked the actual capacity to out produce the UEF. This is why they relied on last ditch effort such as dropping a colony onto the planet or dealing a decisive blow to the UEF command structure. As in a proactive long term war they wouldn't be able to win. This is why, while individually speaking their ships were not as effective as a mobile suit. They didn't have to be as not only did it outperform the zeon Musai class ships. They were also feilded in far greater numbers. As in the end in a war of attrition, Zeon stood no chance. And the UEF really cared little for their soilders. as in the end Neither side was good .

[@sardaukerlegion]

Sieg Zeon!

[@todddavis2041]

Im working on my own series that does focus of this idea, Geneon Alpha Chronicles. Due to my preference for big gun Battleships over missile destroyers the naval fleets that oppose each other are based around the big gun doctrine. However, these ships are hybrid Battle-carriers. Designed to carry Mech units across the earth and in space, these units are also capable of destroying warships. More powerful units can do it alone. These ships firepower is based around either large caliber cannons or High powered energy cannons along with anti-air defenses and missile tubes. These hybrid ships still have need of large turreted cannons because tech exists that allows them to diffuse nuclear missiles. Also, for the purpose of defeating an enemy their production of weapons has to be stopped at the source. So not only defeating enemy forces, but can be used for occupation as well.

[@foracal5608]

Drones... Swarm everything with drones

[@wasdwazd]

Not an option in the Universal Century. Minovsky particles, a byproduct of the particular type of nuclear fusion used in the setting, pretty much blocks out the vast majority of wireless signals in high enough densities. It's the whole reasons why mobile suits were created in the first place, they were designed for relatively close, visual range combat with unguided weaponry. It's a similar situation to Dune, where personal energy shields have forced a lot of combat into a very specific form of close combat with blades because ranged weapons are useless at best and disastrous to both sides at worst.

[@eight-cloudspurple5871]

@@wasdwazd funny enough, in Ukraine new designs start to appear in where drones lose signal to their controllr theyll automatically lock on to the last designated target or the nearest target and attack autonomously.

[@TheTrueAdept]

@@eight-cloudspurple5871 The problem is the electronics. To give you an idea, a laptop in the setting would have as much power as an iTouch because most of its mass has to be dedicated to shielding the electronics from Minvosky Particles. They're simply too sensitive to be viable, which is why the ship crew sizes are so large. All the fancy automation that we rely on today couldn't survive a millisecond setting; they would be turned to slag the moment they encounter an I-Latice or a patch of Minvosky Particles.

[@eight-cloudspurple5871]

@@TheTrueAdept wot, dude most modern military equipment designed with lessons learned from the cold war are shielded to withstand emp created by nuclear detonations. Most of the fancy automation in military we rely on will still be fine especially the ones sitting inside a ship, its civilian infrastrucutre that might not have enough shielding compared to military hardware. the drones would have to be bigger sure, to fit the shielding for the electronics, but not much bigger honestly. For some of the larger loitering munitions and drones, the increase would be negligible compare to how much they already weighs and how big they already are.

[@TheTrueAdept]

@@eight-cloudspurple5871 ... not against Minvosky Particles. In-universe, they overwhelmed traditional EMP protection measures and caused much of Earth to revert to *_PRE INDUSTRIAL_* capability. Every electronic has to be MRI-grade shielded *AT THE MINIMUM* to survive, and the EMP bombardment isn't a one-off but *_constant_* for as long as the Minvosky Particles are charged and/or in I-Latices. To give you an idea of just how long that can take, the Loum area was so charged with Minvosky Particles that the I-Latices hadn't dissipated *_TEN YEARS LATER_* in the time of Char's Counterattack. Not only that, but they're also a non-byronic fog that can disrupt the electromagnetic spectrum at sufficient densities but affect radio and microwaves the worst.

[@simon2493]

Well gundams doesn't make sense even inside of the universe. They don't have g negation so with energy weapons rages equaling to light seconds especially with how slow all the ships are battles should end long before any Gundam reaches the flet.

[@TheTrueAdept]

... there is in the form of Minvosky Particles, which are best described as a non-byronic fog that constantly sends out near-nuclear levels of EMP even through traditional EMP shielding. In-setting, you need MRI levels of shielding to even hope to get a digital computer to work. A laptop in this setting would look powerful but would have the capabilities of an iTouch and most of its mass being shielding alone. Then there are the effects on the EM spectrum, as it makes using radar and radio practically impossible in all but the lightest of densities, and even then, the ranges of those systems are vastly reduced (so a radio that can reach out to a few thousand kilometers now only reaches out to a thousand kilometers *AT BEST* in a very light Minvosky Particle density level). So you get the Minbari Stealth problem at most densities, as you know that someone is out there, but you can't determine exactly where.

[@comradeblin256]

If Big Guns Big Battlefleet doctrine failed, you're just equipped wrong weapons and equipment in your FLEET (or you're just POOR IN CASH). Look at USN and Ticonderogas. Well equipped big ships still based. Expanse's battleships still powerful in fleet engagements. BUT THEY WON'T HAPPEN as they would cancel entire gundam universe. The show gotta go on after all! 😂

[@Samuraiedge2]

Looked up PDC in the Expanse wiki. The thing relies on radar control.

[@TheTrueAdept]

@@Samuraiedge2 to be honest, The Expanse should have the ability to create GURPS ASEA sets (take a radar set that can do multiple resolutions, add a LIDAR, give it the ability to switch between the modes, mix well, and you get a GURPS ASEA set) but people consider anything laser related to be unrealistic (if anything, combat in The Expanse is unrealistic, as everyone is going to be using visual/UV spectrum pulse lasers and you need thick hulls of aerogels to even hope to survive that, oh and the kinetic weapons should be causing *SOLID STATE EXPLOSIONS* and not 'going through' the ship due to their velocity of over 4km/s).

[@pyeitme508]

Lol