The Best Value Reverb Plugin in 2023? LiquidSonics' Seventh Heaven Review

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[@Producelikeapro]

What do you feel are some of the best value plugins available? Comment below!

[@jloiben12]

Mix Monolith. It is a really simple plugin but it isn’t expensive and it shaves off a good 15% or so off the time it takes me to mix

[@antoniotorres-mq7hf]

Lately i 've been trying -testing Plugin Alliance UAD and there are amazing products emulating analog hardware, such as Neve, Eventide, Avalon, Api and so on. Also Pro Tools and Logic native plugins are outstanding to me. And Bandlab in online mode has incredible chain effects plugins, i recommend take a look.

[@jtrjammer]

I think one of the best ways to go these days are some of the subscriptions like McDSP, UA Connect, Plugin Alliance etc. I know a lot of people dislike plugin subscriptions, but on the upside you get access to a lot of capabilities to work with and then maybe over time decide on a few favs that you want to own forever.

[@fftunes]

Best value are free plugins... reverbs i recently found are Solaris and Analog Obsession's Room041 🙂

[@llcooltim70]

Voxengo and Valhalla have been super useful for me

[@joelhume1]

I had an M7 in my studio for a demo with the opportunity to buy it at a great price from a friend. Before pulling the trigger I demoed Seventh Heaven to do a direct AB comparison. Seventh Heaven was so incredibly close I passed on the hardware and bought the plugin. I failed blind tests multiple times between the two. I own lots of hardware, and almost always find sonic benefits to hardware over their software counterparts, however M7/Seventh Heaven was just too close. Still, great hardware. Also a great plugin.

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much for sharing

[@LarryGreenMusic]

Got Seventh Heaven back in 2021 for $49. I use it on every mix as the space for all of the instrumental tracks. The effect is magic!

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much for sharing!

[@hectormann1843]

Hi Warren! As you said, reverb is one of the hardest thing to learn when it comes to mixing, I still have no clue. My solution is to not over use reverb, just enough to be heard, but that is so boring!! I get all the basics, that is not hard at all, but when it comes to taste and to blend reverbs and delays, I just don’t have a clue. So please, please make a looong video all about reverb and how to use it on different instruments and vocals! Please Warren! :)) Thanks for the vid, got the plugin for years now, but still don’t know how to make great art from it! ;)

[@Producelikeapro]

I agree! Often when you compress recorded material the room ambience is exaggerated and the need for additional verb etc is rendered unnecessary

[@alfieholloway]

This

[@klanguru-musikproduktion]

I use seventh heaven for almost 1 1/2 years and replaced almost every over reverb except the Relab "Lexicon" LX480 and the PSP 2445 EMT. With these 3 guys you can cover almost anything!

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much for sharing!

[@GalaxyS10e-t2j]

What about Valhalla vintage verb?

[@michaelwitteband]

@@GalaxyS10e-t2j very good as far as I know, but I´m not using it

[@bigstewdio]

This was the first 3rd party reverb I bought (thanks MDN) and I still use it to this day. It has exactly the right right number of controls and it's almost impossible to make it sound bad. The only reverbs I've bought since are the Pro version of Seventh Heaven and Cinematic Rooms Pro (also by Liquidsonics) but they are "diminishing returns" compared to this plugin. This is really the only one you need, the others are nice to have but not essential. No, they aren't paying me :) One very important point which isn't well documented is that the pre-delay only affects the reverb tail (i.e. the late reflections) and doesn't interfere with the early reflections. This is by design and it keeps the reverb sounding natural even when you want to bring the source closer to you by using the pre-delay. I'm only mentioning this because it took me a while to find this information (it's on the website but I don't think in the manual) and is important when dialling stuff in.

[@Producelikeapro]

Thank you for sharing the details on the pre-delay! Interesting. It sounds fantastic

[@Ultimate_Wasabi]

The pro version of Seventh Heaven adds ducking , EQ, and Atmos support. It also adds not only way more presets, but second versions of those presets that have modulation.

[@Producelikeapro]

Marvellous! Thanks ever so much for sharing!

[@CoriMusic97]

To use atmos do you have to have special speakers ?

[@SOUNTH11composingdesign]

​@@CoriMusic97normal Speaker, but multiple

[@ToxicTurtleIsMad]

If you ask this you have no business with it ​@@CoriMusic97

[@DeltaWhiskeyBravo13579]

Excellent demo Warren. Seventh Heaven sounds great, every preset sounded like a good starting point. Controls to tweak if needed. Great job by LiquidSonics. My current best reverb emulation, Relab LX480 Essentials. Mine I got free last Christmas as I'd bought a Pulsar Audio bundle with Mu, Massive and the free Relab.

[@Producelikeapro]

Much appreciated!

[@erikhausler6858]

I had a Bricasti for years. A Bricasti feature is, you don't hear it - until you take it out: It blends so naturally with the material that it sounds like an organic part of it. Sounds like this was the case in this test too towards the endwith the BV's, like where is it? Is it on? Amazing. We didn't listen to the tails of the longer ones, they're unbelievable on the original, I'll try it out. Thanks for bringing this to our attention - great plugin!

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much for sharing Erik!

[@llcooltim70]

Absolutely love Liquid Sonics Verbs - they're all amazing. I've been using them for stereo but also my Atmos mixes - where you'll need the pro versions mostly.... they'll do a 9.1.6 verb in any input/pan format you want - that de correlates and folds down perfectly - Just jaw (or drawers?!) dropping. Haven't been this excited about 'verbs for years either, but LS smashed it. I sound like I'm sponsored - but I paid for everything and not sorry even a little bit.

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much for sharing!

[@Spasmatic]

Thanks for the heads up, it sounds very natural for a plug in and never having a Bricasti of my own, it's a wonderful way to enter the world of useful quality reverb minus option paralysis...

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much for sharing

[@topsymusic3733]

Love this one ! One of my first purchases and go-to reverbs since then, especially for creating a small room space around a source before it is sent in a larger one, like simplicity Berlin studio for orchestral. Absolutely love the GUI, moreover, whose low and hi cut buttons allowed me to learn how to shape a brighter or darker sound so as to place my instruments in perspective in my mixes.

[@Producelikeapro]

Wow! Thanks ever so much for sharing that tidbit! I’m going to try it

[@LightsandMotion]

I've used Seventh Heaven's "Large Wooden Room" as my main drum-kit reverb for years. love it!

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much for sharing

[@thesaint7380]

i ended up not using it anymore, always preferred the UAD plates or Valhalla...though the 7H doesn't sound bad, should give it a try again, thanks for the video!

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much! I really appreciate it!

[@watchtheskies]

I use the Boston Hall setting for Orchestral instruments, absolutely beautiful

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much for sharing

[@vincenteoppolo9025]

Been using it for over a year and love it. Strongly recommend

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much!

[@allpdmusic]

Thanks to MDN, I bought this a couple of years ago and now it's on every mix. Great on EVERYTHING!! I don't see a need for the pro version. This really is a great reverb.

[@Producelikeapro]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@RobKristjansson]

That is THE MIC to use when there's a big reel-to-reel tape machine in the BG!

[@Producelikeapro]

Marvellous! Thanks for sharing

[@PhilDonaldson]

When mixing, reverb frustrates me, The settings are quite a mystery, But this new plugin, Could be the one in, That finally gets the sound for me!

[@Producelikeapro]

Enjoy it! Thanks for watching

[@The-Skyking]

The sunset chamber for 7th heaven is awesome. 7th heaven, abbey road plates, relab's 480. The 3 reverbs I use 90% of the time.

[@Producelikeapro]

Very cool! Thanks for sharing

[@sgfdancecompany]

Im use the full version since 2 years ago and is by far the more flexible, fine and actually with this one you can cover all the reverb corners. Wish the best luck to the 5 guys to get it. Thanks like always Warren

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much

[@soundman1402]

This is my default reverb. I grab it, slap it on a bus, and let it rip. Once a preset is selected, I usually don't need to do anything to it; it sounds right already. If I ever get into surround/atmospheric mixing, I'll go pro. For now, the basic version gives me the results I want!

[@Producelikeapro]

Marvellous! Thanks ever so much for sharing!

[@J-DUB-F1]

That's a solid no brainer!.......big QPR!. The perfect combination of high quality sounds and ease of use. Sometimes great convolution verbs can be kind of techy with endless opportunities to tweak things. This is just set it and forget it, AND you get Bricasti level quality😉👍

[@tobysandovaloficial]

Great review !! I have both Seventh Heaven pro and Cinematic Rooms, both are amazing and my go to for everything, I regularly use SH for rooms and CR for tails.

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks for sharing!

[@tonysayer1658]

I have quite a few reverbs but when I bought this a couple of years ago it became my main reverb quite quickly. I now spend less time trying different reverb plugins to find a sound I’m happy with. I just insert the Seventh Heaven quickly select a preset and tweak a little and keep mixing. Sounds so good so easily.

[@kiillabytez]

Easy to use, versatile, pleasant to look at, incredible results. What more could you ask for in a studio tool?

[@Producelikeapro]

Very well said!

[@tayzonday]

Sounds great ✊

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much!

[@Brutuscomedy]

I'm still using an old version of Reverberate (from them) and love it.

[@Producelikeapro]

Marvellous! Thanks ever so much for sharing

[@johnchase3920]

Love the sound of this plug! Been using Exponential Audio reverbs for years, and pricing is quite reasonable. UAD Capitol Chambers, and the Lex offerings are very good. Value base for me, is they are less costly than hardware, and lower maintenance🙂 Going to grab this, and possibly Cinematic Rooms. As always, thank you for your time!

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks for sharing! I appreciate your opinion

[@CalvinLimuel]

Samplicity has a free IR pack of the M7. That's what I use. Also there's also an expansion pack for Slate Verbsuite.

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks for sharing

[@ambiention]

Hi Warren, hope YOU are doing marvelously well

[@Producelikeapro]

And I hope you are too!

[@ambiention]

@@Producelikeapro love your stuff man, keep doing your thing :)

[@Producelikeapro]

Aw shuck!@@ambiention Thanks ever so much

[@pablovazquez8386]

I really like Liquidsonics products,i always use Reverberate 3 on my vocals, I'm waiting on BF to see if I get the right price for 7th pro

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much for sharing Pablo

[@powellrandolph]

This is great! Blair sounds awesome as usual too!

[@Producelikeapro]

He always does!

[@gatherstudio5219]

I am definitely interested in this plugin although i just got the waves platinum bundle and the IRL reverb Really has some fantastic verbs

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much for sharing

[@jtrjammer]

Agree 7th Heaven is definitely one of the best, got turned on to it by Marc D.

[@Producelikeapro]

That’s amazing to hear!!

[@timjonesguitar]

Love this reverb, it's my go to reverb these days, just the basic version, Sunset Chamber is great!!

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks for sharing Tim!

[@MaartenFranken]

I just checked, its still $299, like I remember. Its more than worth it, no doubt. In priciple I dont pay such prices for plugins, but this one I had to have, its absolutely stunning!

[@Producelikeapro]

That’s great to hear!

[@EfNerva]

I've been using the full version for a few years now and it's still the one I pull out first before other options. The cheaper version is an absolute steal. Unfortunately the simplified interface makes people often think that more features are stripped away than is actually the case. Nice to see you found the lower advanced menu. One thing to note, is that the decay can be adjusted by clicking on the arrows. So really, all the features one really would "need" are there. A little cool trick to try is using the Ambience modes to give some width to the vocal. One step further from that would be to add some brightness to the signal going into the ambience verb. Blending that in can give a very classy sheen to the vox that sounds a bit less eq-d than doing it on the normal track. Another thing I like to do is to sometimes keep the VLF turned on after high-passing the signal. It can help control some of the bottom end, but still add that nice verb effect. Great review. In some ways this is even better than the full version for it's way quicker to blast through the different presets with that big knob. I do miss the built-in ducking compressor that is in the bigger brother.

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks so much, Ef! Great tips on the VLF knob

[@andreirlmeier]

The 441 is fantastic

[@Producelikeapro]

It is rather good indeed

[@kiillabytez]

A new kid on the block, JMG Sound's Expanse3D is pretty impressive, as well as Nembrini Audio's Delay 3000 are my choice for incredible plugins for the price.

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks e er so much for sharing!

[@Randuski]

i have so many reverb plugins omg. and i know y'all do to. but this one is easily my favorite. the $69 (nice) one just has the perfect reverbs that you would want 90% of the time, you have the main controls you'd want, and no faff. my number 1 reverb recommendation

[@Producelikeapro]

That’s wonderful to hear! Thanks ever so much for sharing

[@Bluesytoon]

My go to verb!

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks for sharing! It might be mine too from now on

[@musiccreation1198]

When I left the UA ecosystem I wondered, what will replace UA's Capitol Chambers & Ocean Way? I discovered Seventh Heaven Professional. It easily matches / exceeds the performance of Cap Chambers & Ocean Way.

[@Singerville]

I did a blind test on 7th Heaven vs Cap Chambers... 7th won every time!

[@musiccreation1198]

@@Singerville Thanks for confirming my experiences!

[@Producelikeapro]

Thank you for sharing!

[@jimwilliams330]

Seventh Heaven is worth it just for Sunset alone but I love those drum tracks of yours dry Warren haha!! Still love Altiverb with the 7H, ReLab 480 and a hardware Lexicon MPX1

[@Producelikeapro]

Glad you like them! Thanks Jim!

[@RyRyTheBassGuy]

I think the best value reverb plugin is the one that comes with your DAW. Especially the convolution plugins that Studio One and Cubase have. But seriously, this sounds cool and would be nice to have in the arsenal.

[@Producelikeapro]

Agree! The oldest plug in I use every day is the DVerb plate and I love it! Stock rules! As does this plug in!

[@arrivalsband9201]

Ok, I got to admit, you made me buy this plugin and it sounds very good. Better than Ozone NeoVerb, better than my Lexicon emulator plugins, better than the stock reverb that comes with Studio one. For vocals, it is really good.

[@Producelikeapro]

Wow! Thanks ever so much for sharing

[@spbmac]

Sold! (Black Friday deal makes it even more of a no brainer!)

[@Producelikeapro]

Absolutely marvellous

[@RudeRecording]

Love the review! I'm a reverb aficionado and have a virtual rack full but I do like simple. Reverb is my "sounds better" control for better or worse. On another note I do love the Sennheiser 441, I used to have a pair that I often used on new wave guitars. However, that mic is not favorable to your voice. It sounds abrasive and over sibilant on SoundID calibrated headphones. A mic with more body would be recommended.

[@_patrikjay_]

This is a great emulation but Team PLAP you should try their Cinematic Rooms and Tai Chi. Those two are on another level. Not cheap plugins but to my ears worth every cent! Great demo Warren!

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks for the recommendation! I've heard amazing things about Cinematic Rooms so I will give that a go soon. Thanks for watching

[@CoriMusic97]

Are they better than seventh Heaven in your opinion?

[@sonobull4016]

Really sound great but....I found the free Convology Xt that you can used with free bricsti M7 and then I'm very happy at all!!

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks for sharing!

[@surindersandhumusic]

Superb kick sound, gorgeous track! Thanks for the video :-)

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much

[@progreggae]

thanks for the video! is there a difference between this and slate one?

[@Producelikeapro]

For me this is straightforward and easy to use, all the presets are amazing

[@patricioo1419]

I love this reverb

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks Patricio!

[@eLpasoRec]

And don’t forget LiquidSonics’ other terrific ‘verbs: Cinematic Rooms, Lustrous Plates, Reverberate, etc.

[@Producelikeapro]

We have to check them out too. Thanks for sharing

[@Joey-rp5vg]

Sounds really good. Plugins are getting better by the day. Isn't technology brilliant. Thanks very much for the review. Cheers

[@Producelikeapro]

Couldn't agree more! Thanks for watching!

[@PhilDonaldson]

I've been looking for a good, budget-friendly reverb. Great use for drum room sounds. Not sure if Neoverb is going to totally cut it. If you're giving it away, I'll take it. 🙂👍🏾

[@Producelikeapro]

Haha this one is going to take some beating!

[@PhilDonaldson]

Word. 👍🏾

[@PhilDonaldson]

Oh by the way, I've done a little playing around with Transit - love it! Can't wait to mess around with it more this weekend!

[@kristianmarschewski1590]

@@PhilDonaldson i use the seventh heaven pro. a small bright chamber is great for a "fake" drum room sound

[@CosmicD]

Toraverb is also very good IMO, and valhalla plugin too, but I like this one too because it sound sophisticated and subtle.

[@ReverendDr.Thomas]

Sounds amazing! I hope to win a copy.

[@Producelikeapro]

Marvellous! Thanks ever so much for sharing

[@obedanturi9820]

Cool, Mr. Warren, what plugins do you recommend?

[@Producelikeapro]

A handful, what are you specifically looking for? EQ? Compression? What things are you compressing?

[@obedanturi9820]

@@Producelikeapro tape an saturation

[@Czyszy]

There are photos of Genesis era Peter Gabriel singing into a 441! The most famous one is the one where he's dressed as The Flower. :P

[@Producelikeapro]

Very cool indeed!!

[@carlosruiz5987]

Hello! I love your channel and I wanted to check out your website. I got a pop up asking if I wanted some material for free and decided to give it a try, but I wanted to read your terms and conditions, and it seems the libknis dead. I could check the privacy policy, but terms and conditions agreement is also required, so I would like to read it first. Thank you for all the wealth of info you share in your channel, and I look forward to checking out more about your website and mixing courses. Thanks!!

[@gatherstudio5219]

The kick is sick i need this kick in my life

[@Producelikeapro]

Aw shucks! Thanks ever so much

[@timeiseverything4]

He deserves all 772K subscribers

[@Producelikeapro]

You’re very kind!

[@mattalan5218]

Go too, love this reverb

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much for sharing

[@monkmusic5994]

Baby Audio's Crystaline is most versatile and needs lots of tweaking.

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much for sharing! We are fans of Baby Audio too!

[@thesongacademy5017]

Great plug in

[@Producelikeapro]

Marvellous

[@Rissna]

This was a nice one. 👍🏼🎸

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much!

[@tortieville1984]

LiquidSonics Cinematic Rooms is as good if not better. Both reverbs are as good as it gets.

[@Producelikeapro]

Very cool! Thanks for sharing!

[@jakelondon]

I know this video is a year old now, but curious what people here think: If you only had a budget for either this 7H plug-in or Vintage Verb, which do you choose?

[@Producelikeapro]

For what Seventh Heaven can do I’m not sure there is anything better than

[@StaminaMC]

Although I have both: this one, ten times outta ten. 'Cos I'm not that good at mixing, and 7H just 'becomes' the sound in an unintrusive way that neither calls attention to itself nor needs much done to it thereafter. If I want a more obviously effected sound then VVV is the guy, but it isn't a 'set and forget' plug, not for me.

[@cesargonzalezbueno3359]

Hey Warren. In a video you were hosting a Leapwing Audio representative or owner you said to have mixed something for Christian Castro. Can you tell me the name of the single/s or album?

[@Producelikeapro]

I Produced, engineered and mixed the Dicen album. I also played guitar and bass on a lot of it. Many thanks, Warren

[@cesargonzalezbueno3359]

@@Producelikeapro I asked because I love his music and I wanted to listen to your work knowing that it is you work. Many thanks.

[@Producelikeapro]

@@cesargonzalezbueno3359thanks ever so much! I hope you enjoy that album!!

[@cesargonzalezbueno3359]

@@Producelikeapro sure did.

[@Producelikeapro]

That's great to hear!@@cesargonzalezbueno3359

[@RJ1J]

I think the Eventide UltraReverb is way better value, and sounds clearer. I got it for less than £40 in a sale along with Blackhole for £28. I sold this plugin because it's too muddy for me.

[@Producelikeapro]

I do love Eventide, this plug in would easily sit alongside it! I don't know the Blackhole yet

[@RJ1J]

@@Producelikeapro Eventide BlackHole is a sound design reverb, makes some huge infinite reverbs based on H9000 Eventide code. Very popular with electronic and indie producers.

[@Producelikeapro]

Excited to try!@@RJ1J

[@PeachtreeGuitar]

Can you show us what your voiceover mic plugins look like?

[@Producelikeapro]

Hmm not sure there is much of anything to share!

[@PeachtreeGuitar]

@@Producelikeapro When you talk on videos, do you use any EQ or plugins to enhance dialogue?

[@Producelikeapro]

Maybe light compression, some gentle high passing @@PeachtreeGuitar

[@charliebryce3783]

How does this verb compare to Ecoboy?

[@PatApoo]

Odd comparison as this is a reverb and Echoboy is a delay.

[@ericlarkins]

It'd be nice if they ran a sale, they haven't had one in awhile!

[@Producelikeapro]

It’s less than $60 isn’t it?

[@ericlarkins]

@Producelikeapro $69, but I'd rather go long and get the pro version or their ultimate suite (forget what they call it.) Regardless, they haven't had a sale in awhile.

[@russhughes5368]

They do one big sale a year over Black Friday - don't miss it!

[@ericlarkins]

That's a big help, thank you Russ! @@russhughes5368

[@myrona.gilmorejr.]

This is great

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much

[@SamHocking]

Liquidsonics are great, but the way they deal with multichannel in their VST is simply stupid and imo doesn't work properly so I've never purchased any. The VST3 simply doesn't allow you to select a different channel format and the VST2 although it supports multi-out doesn't let the user change the channel format.

[@franlarsen80]

Can anyone comment on how it compares to Reverberate-3 (also by LiquidSonics)? I know it it probably easier to use, but how about sounds?

[@Producelikeapro]

I will have to compare directly in order to respond!

[@gh0stransist0r]

I don't think anything can come close to Valhalla VintageVerb plugin when it comes to value. Just few megabytes in size, can run on your ancient Pentium PC, so lightweight. It's equivalent to Ampeg for bass. It feels standard, feels like a record, like every other high end hardware reverb.. for $50. Feeling lazy ? just throw it in and dial in the mix on default setting and it still sound expensive. Ridiculous.

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks for sharing your opinion! I've always loved Valhalla, especially when going for a retro sound, they do that wonderfully!

[@splashesin8]

:)

[@Producelikeapro]

Thanks ever so much Audrey

[@kimseniorb]

another the best thing. ehh is it going to stop one day?

[@ericlarkins]

Lol!

[@Producelikeapro]

Hmm this is THE reverb everyone I know uses and I’m VERY late to the party! Hah

[@kimseniorb]

@@Producelikeapro I don’t disagree, its a great IR based reverb

[@Producelikeapro]

@@kimseniorbMarvellous! 🎉😊

[@philiphopper4885]

Valhalla is $50.

[@Producelikeapro]

Great reverbs! I’m thinking this is multiple verbs in one!

[@yobhsiFehT]

Any thoughts on which is lighter on processor power?

[@Producelikeapro]

@@yobhsiFehTwould have to do a direct shootout to comment

[@philiphopper4885]

@@Producelikeapro true! I want to give this one a try for sure. I’m a sucker for reverbs and anything going for the Bricasti sound is bound to be a staple.

[@Producelikeapro]

Fantastic!@@philiphopper4885

[@assshakerstudios549]

Just FYI, Pro Tools has a 30% less efficient engine than Reaper(which is the best), and 29% less efficient than Cubase(which is second best) the worst is Logic which means on a 100 track song using Pro Tools you can only use 1 plugin on 70 tracks on an M1 chipset. However this is also true on PC's(not the numbers but Cubase allows a vast improvement in the amount of active plugins allotted to the same exact song on the same computer versus Pro Tools! Been that way for a while now too. All the way back to PT 7.3 was when I learned that on a PC! Just saying. No reason to use it anymore except, you don't wanna learn something new because you've been using it for 30yrs. I still would rather work on Pro Tools instead of Cubase because I hate the setup! However, it's just more stable, and it's easier to work with more plugins, even though every plugin creates issues....