Pokémon Needs More Water: Why Generation 3 Is Peak Pokémon

Pokémon Generation 3 (Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald) are famous for having a bunch of water and water HMs and also being really good. I think those things are all true, but Generation 3 water is awesome and it should have more of it.
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[@ProfessorBopper]

Pokémon Sapphire Save Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qXiZlqdngNyfeZY&

[@maxwellgarrison2983]

Wario Land 4 music from the trash level I believe

[@AlaskanPanda314]

"Pokemon has a mysterious way of stirring the oldest memories of your life if you let it." My heart STOPPED when I saw the clock being set. I don't know what about that hit me but man. It hit.

[@TheDrunkLawyer]

Read this as he was saying it. Weird

[@SeptaGon7]

this is team aqua propaganda

[@rdrrr]

Team Aqua would have a social media presence today. Imagine Archie shitposting on X-formerly-Twitter and having an ironic (?) following

[@vlc-cosplayer]

Common Team Aqua W

[@easy_nin]

We finally did it. Now I can go to the box and store my Waterfall animal.

[@machinat3636]

Make sure they keep tackle

[@Anarchist2]

this video was really cool, but why was there a blank screen at 32:21

[@easy_nin]

@@Anarchist2 That's easily the funniest joke I have heard all month

[@fllyingpinattas1]

HMs are important for “Adventure Feel” I think. Feels less like you’re on an adventure without them and more like you’re walking down a street to the next town over.

[@assortmentofpillsbutneverb3756]

Same with the dungeons and one use tms. It's call backs to the traditional rpg core at the base of the the first 1-3 games. Past hoenn, many of these things get chipped away creating a more "pokemon" feel to the gane motifs. Some like it more, but I've always liked the trad rog elements more

[@rdrrr]

The player could've been given a "Support" slot. A Support Pokémon can't be used in battle but can use HMs. Basically an HM slave that doesn't use a slot. The trick is you've still only got four move slots and there's usually 6+ HMs, so you'd have to swap the Support mon out. To make it a bit more than just a free HM slave, you could also give Support mons small party buffs. Now the player has to choose whether they want their Strength HM slave that gives a small bonus to shiny chance or their Cut HM slave that gives a small bonus to the chance Wild Pokémon will spawn with held items (or whatever - the bonuses would not be relevant to battle).

[@DarkAuraLord]

I've been saying this about real life for years, but apparently that just makes me an "eco terrorist"

[@guillemtb1671]

An ecoterrorist of Team Aqua, to be more precise

[@tacituskilgore2016]

Archie did nothing wrong

[@kakalukio]

Honestly; the only problem with HM's was that they took one of your very limited moveslots. Needing them to unlock new areas; the way they shaped progression, how they influenced level design; that was great. You can see how much level design sucks in Scarlet/violet; you can go everywhere, so nowhere is special. I wish they had found a better solution than simply removing them.

[@Shinntoku]

I mean I would argue they're fundamentally back in SV, just focused on ways to move around

[@kakalukio]

@@Shinntoku it fundamentally doesn't work in scarlet/violet since its an open world 3D thing and you can just jump over most obstacles without much effort. There are only a handfull of places you can't immeadiatly reach; and only 1 or 2 that hide something interesting.

[@Shinntoku]

@@kakalukio there are tons of places you can't normally reach until your raidon has some HMs, your starting jump is tiny and can only get places by using exploits like backward jumping

[@kakalukio]

@@Shinntoku Few of those places have any actual value though. Sure; there's some random plateau you can't reach. But does that really matter if all it has is a TM you can find in 3 other places? It's not like the older games where HM's blocked significant parts of the game.

[@ajh22895]

No, the Houndour and Larvitar issue is that Johto should have Johto Pokemon. And so many of them are stuck in Kanto or in the case of Sneasel and Larvitar, behind the Kanto region. Also, Game Freak realised that it was an issue and corrected it in future games. That's why you don't get Rattata in the Hoenn early game.

[@vulcanraven9701]

I agree. The anime clearly showed houndour and larvitar in Johto, so they should have been in Johto. Plain and simple

[@erc3338]

The main point of the video that the lack of HMs is why modern region design isn't as interesting is flawed, and can be illustrated through (imo) the worst designed region in all of Pokémon; Galar. The progression is still there as you still need to unlock, say, the water bike upgrade in Sword and Shield. The problem with modern pokemon isn't the lack of meaningful progression, it's the lack of places to use those acquired methods of progression outside of the exact moment it is given to you. Going back to SwSh, you get the water bike *as soon* as you get to the beach route. This isn't the fault of a lack of HMs, this is the fault of designing a region without any optional areas unlocked through progression, rather than solely through story.

[@daveperella1263]

So true bc hms make it interesting to go back to spots u been to see new stuff

[@hekonaleeinos5510]

6:34 Hey, don't be mean to Lovedisc ; they can be useful much more often (by mugging them).

[@easy_nin]

Nice reference lol

[@MogFlintlock]

Three times is still twice more than any other individual Luvdisc is going to be useful.

[@crystaltrees4013]

Never hated HMs as a concept but the inability to forget them without going to a move deleter has always bugged me

[@lelandwhitehead56]

don't want kids soft-locking themselves

[@VoltaVoid]

Very much agree. If you could delete them freely, or at least before Lilycove, I think most people wouldn’t mind them nearly as much

[@LakituAl]

I feel so called out by that move set in the thumbnail. Replace Fly with Rock Smash and that was my Swampert by the end of my first playthrough

[@easy_nin]

I mean it isn't wrong to do it. A gen 4 speedrun actually ends with an Empoleon like that, too

[@YungHaimovitz]

This is now my favorite video on KZbin. The compelling nostalgia and more of RSE that has always had a hold on me has been articulated so well! Thank you very much.

[@jaeaik]

In the end i really do feel like Pokemon is genuinely just a journey about what you make it out to be. Sure I gotta go stop team rocket, magma, or whatever, but my unique experience of Piss Dog the Lucario (I was in 4th grade) clutching it up against the Elite 4 *FEELS* unique to me. Its a story I can go and share with my boys at the back of the bus. And I think thats what captivated Pokemon for me throughout all the years.

[@auggy69]

I have no nostalgia for gen 3, I grew up with the sinnoh games, but the last part of the video where you talk about the feelings gen 3 evokes and the nostalgia is so beautifully written I can't help but completely understand

[@lunathic]

I think the best generation for HMs is gen 5, except for the hm toutorial bush, they aren't required at any point until the post game, but using them will give you acess to optional mini areas and items. I think it was a very good middle ground between removing them and keeping them cause you would never be forced to use a crappy pokemon on you at all times.

[@noukan42]

Hard disagree. Carrying around a thief to open locks even if it is not great in combat is a big RPG staple and HM mons are the equivalent. It makes tea. Building a more xomplex process.

[@lunathic]

@@noukan42 Its literally an option in that game if you want, it just doesn't gate the game progress behind it. In older pokemon unless its your second playthrough, you can never afford to take your hm slave off the team cause you might just walk into a cave and the game will randomly throw a breakable rock at you for no reason. At the end of the day the reason hms are best in black and white is because its the game with the best area design, even if the map as a whole is is just a big circle, the individual areas are very very good.

[@FDLX]

@@noukan42 I will contribute to the cycle of eternity and say that I disagree! HMs fundamentally limit player choice when it comes to teambuilding both in terms of moves to use and also pokemon to move. For example, in my latest HeartGold run I used a Noctowl, which was also my only pokemon capable of learning Fly. Problem is, Noctowl is already not that good, but its special attack is WORLDS better than its normal attack. I only had room for 4 moves, and so I had to make the decision of either actively crippling my build for Noctowl, getting rid of Noctowl for a physical pokemon that can learn fly (something I did not want to do), or simply not using one of the best quality of life HMs in the game. Sure, games like say Baldur's Gate 3 and its application of the DND 5E systems do make a rogue basically mandatory for a LOT of things, but they also have both options to get around certain checks a rogue would be necessary for alongside a whole interesting set of combat mechanics for rogues to use even if they are subpar. All HMs do in pokemon is limit your party composition and punish the player even further for picking unoptimal pokemon.

[@noukan42]

@@FDLX it does. I am saying that limiting teambuilding is actually a good thing, not that it doesn't limit it.

[@kylefields3951]

@@noukan42 I think it's also worth mentioning that the Game does need to have that aspect in mind in its problems that it presents to the Players. I think more Pokémon Players would be willing to use a Bibarel Type Pokémon if there were a lot of extra rewards like Battles, Secret Bosses, loads of extra TMs, Missable Content and Cutscenes, powerful Pokémon etc. There are rewards, but it often feels like the people behind it just give you okay rewards that aren't always worth your time, Move Slot, or Pokémon Slot. I'm in full agreeance, though. I like it when I have to diversify my Team to tackle a Game's problems. Problem is the Game has to be built to support it and not do it halfway.

[@gtdfg4594]

Another fellow HM enjoyer. Feels so great to find someone who articulates their enjoyment of these options

[@CaptainAstronaut]

1 minute in and there's already a spicy hot take you won't see anywhere else. I love these videos.

[@mars3725]

certain pokemon being locked to late game just added to their mythos when we were kids, and it worked in tandem with trading. sending your friends cool level 1 pokemon to play through the game with was part of the experience for me.

[@logainwolfe1988]

Just wanted to say, your retrospectives and ji_mothy's retrospective, in addition to having impeccable release timing in proportion to each other, have consistently provided excellent contrast to the opinions of each other while both being well thought out and spoken. I know it's not intentional, but it's really been enjoyable to listen to two contrasting retrospectives within weeks of each other with both containing valid points.

[@amesstarline5482]

Couldn't have typed it better myself- I love seeing this sort of re-evaluating bit by bit here.

[@eleazarcameziv3779]

Babe wake up new controversial yet uncontroversial Bopper Pokémon video essay dropped

[@Tarpad]

i was not expecting a reference to French New Wave cinema but i suppose that's on me

[@kylefields3951]

You get real opinions on this Channel from a real human. Goes hard👾

[@Wupar]

Before even watching the video, I'm gonna go ahead and agree with the thesis statement that HMs are good. I believe that inconvenience adds texture. I happen to love the swamp and snow routes in Sinnoh, even though most people hate those mechanics, because in their own small way, they give me the unique experience of adversity, of the world itself feeling like it doesn't want me trudging on, unlike newer games that feel like a theme park designed to jerk off the player at all times. HMs do the same for me. Sometimes, you just can't explore a certain area, and you need to turn back to a PC and prepare better, and the whole time anticipation is building. It creates a sort of relationship or story arc between you and the environment, even if a minor one. In the best case scenario, they also forge a stronger bond between you and your Pokémon, calling on one of your own buddies to clear a path rather than some anonymous rental creature. Now, could they be done better so that they don't require you to permanently clog your team members' movesets with trash moves? Absolutely. But I wish they weren't completely eradicated as they were.

[@andyz6306]

Couldn't agree more.

[@iantaakalla8180]

I also note that the best game that technically lacks HMs is the Paldea region, but that is specifically because you are supposed to go to various towns in Paldea as a college student on some sort of master thesis or something. The freely explorable world makes sense with the initial conceit of Pokémon Scarlet and Violet. I also say that HMs are technically absent because while you don’t need to them to traverse the world, they make movement through the world more convenient (at least if you are not going for the true ending), and the things that your mount is eating to gain movement options are, for some reason, abbreviable to HM (Herba Mystica).

[@dawhatever314]

All right “Booty Bopper” or should I say your really name: Team Aqua Grunt

[@MrVonDutchman]

My favourite feature were the seasons in gen v, seeing a part of the world you couldn't access until there was water or snow really made the world feel alive and big

[@mixx6746]

A detail of teams Aqua and Magma that I quite enjoy is that while fighting them throughout the game, it is easy to become complacent of their "weak" pokémon. Zubats, Poochyenas, Numels, and Carvanhas pose very little threat to any half-decent team. Archie and Maxie use the evolved forms of most of these same pokémon, so one would think that they too would be push overs, albeit a little higher leveled than their grunts. However, these two are some of the more formidable bosses that the player fights throughout the game save for the elite four and champion. Mightyena can ruin the destructive power of physical attackers with intimidate while Crobat can use confuse ray to turn the tides against a statistically stronger opponent, forcing the player to think on their toes and adapt their strategies. Both Sharpedo and Camerupt possess destructive power at the cost of falling prey to common weaknesses, ensuring that a properly prepared player can take them down with good preparation and team building. It reminds you that those hordes of grunts you took down were not trainers using weak pokémon, but instead pokémon blocked from their full potential by weak trainers. 32:21 Also hi Koishi

[@easy_nin]

Nice way to see it. Also, I told Bopper that Koishi would get comments and it didn't even take 2 hours, so thanks xD

[@VellusTerennia]

Gen 3 is my favorite generation, unironically.

[@mariomandog]

Same. Is it ironic to like Gen 3? The in game music, pokemon designs/sprites, and plot/post game content are all top tier (in my opinion) I was also 11 so this is prime nostalgia.

[@hoennfanboy]

Me too (obviously) its just the best vibes in hoenn always

[@eightcoins4401]

@@mariomandog Not really. Alot of people grew up with it due to how time passed.

[@KillerSquidHugs]

Oh sweet, I'm a kingdra

[@nomercyforswine]

Gen 3 represents a time when Pokemon was still an rpg, not its own category of game we have now - "creature collectors" or whatever Palworld is billing itself as. That nostalgia we have for old pokemon games seems to hang around rpgs much longer and more intensely than other games from childhood, probably because of how many hours an rpg demands of the player. It is precisely because of the more obtuse elements, like HMs gating progress and absurdly silly braille puzzles that we spent so much time with these games to begin with. Gen 3 also came out at the perfect time to still be mysterious to a child mind. We didn't have Mew under the truck anymore, but Internet rumors about how to get the Mythical Jirachi and Deoxys were absolutely still a thing, and were made even more plausible by mechanics that went unexplained unless you had the $25 to shell out for an Emerald guide that told you the guy in the Space Center who told you how many successful rockets they'd launched was counting the number of weeks since you started your save, nothing more, nothing less. Gen 3 isn't my favorite, but I respect and understand your nostalgia for it, it weighs similarly on my mind how much it means to me compared to most other entries in the franchise.

[@brutusthebear9050]

Gen 3 also had even more insane things than truck mew. The entire Regi puzzle ckmes to mind. But then there are little things like Bagon in Meteor Falls.

[@jollaffle]

THAT'S what the rocket number means? I never believed the Deoxys rumor but I always just assumed the number was totally arbitrary

[@assortmentofpillsbutneverb3756]

Exactly, you can see this in almost all of the go to critiques of the first 3 games. Physical/special split, special/special split, bag limit, dark caves needing optional flash, weird competitive type balances, etc. Not saying they're perfect or anything. More saying that pokemon could've kept evolving that design philosophy and be credited as good game design in a different timeline

[@rdrrr]

As a millennial I see Gen 3, retrospectively, as the games that solidified the Pokémon formula; the point at which the basic mechanics had been locked down and presentational competence had been achieved It's the point where Pokémon games ceased to feel scrappy and low-budget and started to feel like blockbusters (I know Gen 1 and 2 sold a crazy amount, but they feel really rickety. Gen 3 feels "solid".) Ironically the newer Pokémon games have reverted to feeling slapped-together, low budget and messy. Game Freak are in the odd position of being an AAA game company that lacks the staff, development budget etc. usually associated with that kinda clout

[@hippochans]

pissed off that people hated hoenn for having "too much water" and then they made a whole hawaii-themed region with no water routes likely because of this

[@mr.cauliflower3536]

Hoenn literally has a group that wants to make it more earth.

[@easy_nin]

And you stop them

[@cainlimbo9294]

mfw when a painting I like is randomly mentioned in a Pokemon video

[@juanrocollazo]

Just a comment to make sure the Wario Land 4 music in this video doesn't go unappreciated 💚

[@evangoulios9820]

J-J-Joseph Conrad? In a pokemon video essay??? WHAT TIMELINE IS THIS

[@gloweye]

I would love the HM-oriented progression, but a move slot each is far too high a cost. Just having a compatible pokemon is a fair cost.

[@supersaiyaneevee1573]

Feels like a video essay for art history class lol. Yet so captivating 😂

[@Seloliva1015]

The problem with hms is repetition. Losing a slot to rock smash is flavorfull and can incite harder decisions. But every generation loosing the same slot ia annoying. They could just have different ones every time! But that is work

[@starryslight7095]

Ooh I loved the parallels to Monet, totally agree. Hoenn needs MORE water !!!!!! Another banger video bopper

[@ssommegguyy]

32:20 Touhoumon Jumpscare

[@easy_nin]

Touhou is invading this channel

[@silentdrew7636]

The design problems you mention are especially prevalent in RPGs. In other genres, the player will usually have access to all of the mechanics, barring things like power-ups, this means the devs can know exactly what the character can and can't do in any situation, and build content that challenges the player to use the tools they have in interesting ways. If mario, kirby, or Link need to set something on player, the player usually realizes it quickly and switches items or power-ups accordingly.

[@Weavileiscool]

I very much disagree with the clickbait hot takes but the rest of this video was amazing, great job!

[@JoramTriesGaming]

Gen 3 was my first proper Pokemon experience, back in 2005. The 'mons, music, and art hold up so well, but I can't play it for more than a couple of hours at a time because it's so slow. I don't know if modern Pokemon is just that much faster, or if my attention span's that much worse than it was 19 years ago, but I'm honestly finding it boring, and this is saddening. Yet another lovely retrospective from you, regardless :)

[@nico1520]

Don't expect me to ignore that short Touhoumon footage

[@easy_nin]

3min later Touhou comments are invading this channel even more

[@crystalelemental6440]

Love the video, and the appreciation for Gen 3's presentation. The transition from Crystal to Ruby was astounding as a kid, and I hold the visuals of these games in particularly high regard as a result. I really agree with your point about games designing themselves intentionally, and have a fun little story of personal experience around it. Gen 3 was when my brother and I got a GameShark, and could mess with all sorts of things, including getting really powerful Pokemon early. I remember being super excited to finally be able to do things like use a Beldum early, or run something normal like Articuno as a starter in FRLG. And it turns out. They're really bad then. Beldum learns nothing until it evolves at 20 and levels really slowly. Similar deal with legendary Pokemon. Even something like Ponyta has very little going until the levels you encounter it naturally. We wound up using the device, but rarely for main game playthroughs. There really is an intentional purpose to when you find certain things, and I think recent games have been playing catchup with the change to make typically late acquisitions accessible earlier. Larvitar was a huge deal in GSC and HGSS, but later games like XY will give it to you really early. And you can see in the early days of XY/USUM, levels you learn moves don't change, but by Gen 8 it starts learning Crunch 10 levels earlier than it used to. Availability right away gets combined with earlier access to moves to accommodate that access, and it doesn't feel like there's much to work for sometimes.

[@soap6264]

What if instead of HMs taking away move slots its just a move some pokemon can learn. That way people don't make hm slaves

[@ajh22895]

I realise what you are getting at. HMs give you the power to navigate. Borrowing a Pokemon for navigation doesn't feel like your power matters.

[@M0th3ater]

30s in and you’re already based. HM’s are one of pokemons links back to rpg’s, a thing pokemon apparently is

[@rakurai4953]

If Hoenn is the sweet summer times of your Childhood, then Sinnoh is the new autumns of growth and Unova is the new winters of change.

[@vulcanraven9701]

which would johto be?

[@arclight3213]

I think it's funny that most first-take opinions on game mechanics are some combination of {objective statement about the mechanic's design} and "and that's a good/bad thing". The HM argument is always fundamentally "HMs limit your team composition and thats a good/bad thing", but the challenge of the individual game and the map design must be factors in the argument. I love this video.

[@qwert1043]

Really looking forward to further discussion of abilities if you do cover Gen 4 eventually. Pokémon has genuinely incredible battle systems that, at their best, make different species of Mon play radically differently. I’m interested in hearing what you have to say about that evolution in “mon feel” over time.

[@joshuapearl6507]

FINALLY someone shares this opinion. HMs weren’t perfect, but they were a necessary edition to the games that provided a natural roadblock to the players progress and allowed the map to be slowly opened up. Attaching them to Pokémon was the only way it would work A terrible implementation of them was in in BDSP where you get them as part of the pokegear, so you ALWAYS have access to them after each gym. But then what’s the point? Past the first time you are required to use them, they become pointless. What’s the point of a boulder in victory road? You wouldn’t be in victory road if you didn’t have the ability to move one, so why is it there? There’s not trade off at that point because it isn’t using a Pokémon’s moveslot

[@GravityBouncer]

I know this video isn’t super serious lol, but realistically I’ll never understand why people herald gen 3 so highly. ok well, besides nostalgia and clearly being a lot of peoples first Pokémon games, but truly gen 3 was just never it for me. i started late, but i was first introduced to gen 4, then got to play gen 3 for a while, and ultimately got my first owned Pokémon game in gen 5. I truly do not enjoy 3 and 4 all that much? it’s more than the “too much water” and such, it’s just an average experience. great games especially for the time, but i just don’t know how people continuously tote Emerald or Platinum as these “perfect Pokémon games.” idk. i personally think HGSS-BW2 were the peak era of Pokémon, late gen 4-gen 5. just felt like sharing my opinion, been a hard day lmao

[@Qamikace]

Dude goes on a very detailed and thought-through 44 minute analysis on why he likes the game and some rando down below will always just ignore all his points and go like "nah lol".

[@GravityBouncer]

@@Qamikace hey genius so if you read even bits and pieces of my comments: 1.) i didn’t disagree with his points as some of his major points were related to TMs, as an example 2.) i stated this was a personal opinion, something the video has, and the reason comments under social platforms were invented 3.) you’re a rando. he’s a rando. none of us know each other. grow up. if you can’t handle the fact that gen 3 isn’t on the top of my list, which is the only thing i can assume from your reaction, then maybe the internet isn’t the place for you. there’s real problems in the world, foh being rude for no reason

[@_sleep_sugar]

I really do love how insightful your video is and I really do appreciate you having a perspective that’s different from everyone else (this also goes for the gen 1 and 2 videos) honestly I’m really impressed with how you changed how I viewed stuff like johto Pokémon locked to being in kanto or how hms should be handled

[@Ocarinist_Drew]

It's worth noting that in RSE, you never need Dive and Waterfall at the same time. Also, by the time you are given Dive, you also have Fly and access to the Move Deleter. I usually just run 1 water type on my team who knows Surf and Dive, but after the 8th gym I fly to the Move Deleter and swap out Dive for Waterfall.

[@charleslathrop8309]

A Gen 3 thing you overlooked is Gardevoir via early Ralts, something Gen 6 lets you do with Kalos while also giving Gible right at the midgame, so you have two metagame staples that just mash the game to bits as soon as like gym 6 or 7 when they get fully evolved, the free Lucario, the Snorlax encounter early, Kalos just gives you stupid talent freely

[@meta527II]

I love Generation 3, it helped to define my childhood.

[@RronKarahoda]

Gen 3, with the introduction of abilities that effect battles and the overworld alike, the introduction of contests that rely on stats built up by taking care of berries on the overworld, and the little details like reflections in puddles and footsteps in sands, among many other elements, still represents my favorite marriage of theme and ludonarrative in the entire series. They even answered the water encounter rate problem by giving you the solution in the soot produced by Mt. Chimney being exchangable for the black flute. (Don't buy repels!)

[@Animeedaddy]

I still think the pokemon anime should have started with a new kid that wants to be the champion of double battles since ash is the champ at singles

[@Fanciable]

As a devout follower of Gen 3 gospel You won me over with this video Over 5k hours played between R&S and I couldn't agree with a video more. Subbed lad

[@typemasters2871]

The way I would implement HMs would be to either 1. You unlock abilities but you need specific Pokemon in your party to perform these abilities (water type for surf/waterfall/dive/whirlpool, flying for fly/defog/cut?, and fighting or normal for strength/rock smash/rock climb) 2. Have a system like ride Pokemon but if you teach a Pokemon an HM then that Pokemon is displayed when a HM is used (like how in ORAS you can fly with either the Eon Flute or with one of your party members that knows fly) The key is to allow players to freely travel across the region with as little as a single Pokemon but also give them the option to use their own Pokemon to clear obstacles or for travel

[@PKMNTrainerCal]

Finally, some love for Castform! One of my favourite Hoenn Pokémon. I've always loved Hoenn's sea routes because they give me a feeling of adventure, almost like I'm a pirate on the high seas. They're also important to the game's lore because of the land vs sea theme.

[@ceulgai2817]

I was NOT expecting a Wario Land 4 reference, but I'm glad I got one.

[@neri1220]

When i was playing gen 1 and gen 2 games i always felt like there is NOT ENOUGH water to enjoy surf. Sure you needed to surf a bit to reach one of the gyms but thats it. I was really happy when in gen 3 we had plenty of water to explore before we hit the land. It felt like new adventure, like i've unlocked new way of transport to reach many places. I got lost back then and that felt amazing because i found my way eventually and it made me memorize the map more. It felt like a challange to visit every corner and not miss out on any items or trainers. Like a survival mode where there is no pokemon center in sight. That was really cool. And sure i could always fly back to the start but that's the thing - i would have to navigate back to where i was once again and i wanted to avoid it if possible. And diving also felt good with the different music (and in very deep waters there were no enounters so you could chill for a bit) so overall i really enjoyed swimming for the first time in pokemon games! I am not sure if there should be more water, but certainly i wouldn't say there was too much of it. I say they hit the right amount of it.

[@squatch1565]

Damn. I never thought there could be something that captures the feeling of nostalgia without being a personal source of nostalgia, but this video does it to a T. Also, for 31:00 I recommend buying Super Repels instead of Max Repels, it's more efficient for your in-game funds. I learned from a Let's Play years ago that the Max Repels cost about 200 more but only give you 50 extra steps

[@eightcoins4401]

Could be worse. In Gen 1 a bug causes *Ultra Balls* to have a worse catchrate than *Great Balls*.

[@Someguy6470]

Gen 3 is full of mystery and intrigue in all its locations and hidden mechanics, the music is bombastic and hopeful and sort of sad sometimes, these games are the best the series has ever looked in regards to both the Pokemon designs themselves and the world they live in; the vibes are immaculate in Hoenn. It's peak. Cool vibeo. :)

[@AkamexAris1023]

I've listened to the first two videos so many times. Very excited for this one! Thank You Friend 💙💙

[@theboostedbaboon4586]

This was a very different perspective and I enjoyed hearing about it. The appeal for pokemon for me has always been pvp and the battling mechanics. So learning about the appeal of exploration as a single player RPG game was very eye opening and different.

[@theboostedbaboon4586]

I actually think if they made a seperate game for pvp pokemon and kept the mainline games exclusively single player, both camps would benefit. Competitive players wouldn't have to grind to be able to play, and the campaign wouldn't be held back by streamlining meant only to make pvp more convenient.

[@easy_nin]

@@theboostedbaboon4586 I'm still waiting for Stadium 4

[@zach4281]

respectfully, the hm thing is a rough opinion. Yes, it’s nice to have world traversal unlocked with power and connect with the pokémon you care about, but there’s days to do that without the annoyance of the HM system That said, aside from that, great video, scratched my nostalgia-rotted brain quite nicely

[@Nick-ovich]

Great video, thought-provoking as always. I think the main reason the critique of the map holds water (eh?) is that its harder to justify tedium in a medium as interactive as video games. Paintings and films simply need to be experienced, whereas all fulfillment from games comes from play. And it can be hard to maintain the facade of the endless springtime of youth presented by the sea when you know that all that springtime anounts to is an encounter table of five or so underwhelming pokemon. Still love gen 3 though, frfr ngl.

[@brutusthebear9050]

At the point that you get surf, you can have a huge number of repels. I think it's personally amazing how water in Hoenn is used, much better than any other gen, because it doesn't just feel like a gameplay mechanic or a one off thing.

[@eightcoins4401]

The infamous "Too much water" Statement was referencing *Water type Pokemon* in the Gen 6 Remake of Gen 3 - besides being an intentional clickbait blurb.

[@trainern6601]

in the case of switching around pokemon in a party, too many people got accustomed to emulator speed up so they end up treating the game as what basically is just a team building simulator. its also why too many people just hack in rare candies and ignore at least 60% of the game just to make a boss rush.

[@eightcoins4401]

Its because in no jrpg has grinding ever been as painfully boring as in Pokemon. This has been an issue since Gen 1 that isnt fixed to this day. Most fun gotta be Shin Megami Tensei Strange Journey Redux. Throwing on Auto Battle and then Fast Forward. Doesnt make the game any easier since its SMT. People often confuse the tedium of braindead grinding with challenge.

[@trainern6601]

im not saying its a challenge or whatever, im saying people ignore what the game expects the player to interact with, there's a reason why the meme "pokemon fans don't know how to read" exists. also about grinding, all early rpgs were notorious for being VERY slow, pokemon was even kinda fast in comparison, only after a certain point rpgs tried to make battles go faster (id say around 2008)

[@volbla]

I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of people who play with speedups or rare candy hacks have already played the game as intended, and they are _replaying_ it in a different and challenging way. They are skipping the parts they already know (story, route layouts and leveling) to get to the parts that are relevant to the challenge.

[@mc.type_guy]

I think a good middle ground for hms is something that some romhacks do: just make them forgettable. You're still presented with the challenge of getting mons that can use them which pushes the player to stay flexible, but you don't get the sucky feeling that comes with basically having a dead move slot until you get access to the move deleter. Alternatively, a romhack called Pokemon Recharged Yellow makes it so you don't have to TEACH a pokemon an hm to use it, but you still need to have a pokemon that would naturally learn the move in your party. I think either of those cases would be effective in getting rid of the main sore point with HMs while getting the benefits they create within the game design

[@andreapareti324]

Thank you! I've been singing the praises of HMs for decades. A game that doesn't pose any obstacle for the player is fundamentally uninteresting; any game offers adversity (which doesn't mean it has to be hard) to the player, aka "what a game asks of the player"; it's just that, especially in the modern day, so many players are excessively focused on convenience and miss the forest for the trees, for this sort of thing.

[@2010AZ]

Hi Professor, I disagree with a number of your positions on here. I do like gen 3 too, Ruby was my first Pokémon game, but I feel like a lot of your points were incomplete : For water, you did touch on a lot of things, but one issue you didn't address is that it all looks the same. Every route in Hoenn has its own character, from volcanic soot to a thunderstorm to a deep forest to a seaside promenade. All water routes are the same tile of water repeated ad nauseam, with dive spots, brown rocks (or even - gasp - white ones), and maybe the odd comically small island. More variety in water routes would make the second part of Hoenn much more bareable to engage with. For HMs, the issue isn't that they're restrictive, it's that they are frustratingly so. When I hardcore nuzlocked emerald a few weeks back for example, HMs didn't really matter, since I had enough pokémon in my box (and infinite rare candies as per pchal's HC rules to get them to a decent level) and I could just swap in what I needed just like I could swap in whatever pokémon I needed for important fights. When playing casually however, there has been too many times to count when I entered a location only to realise it needed whatever HM, then seeing how my team did not have a single mon that could learn the move. I would either need to backtrack to the pokémon center and see if there was something in my box that could do it (I generally catch very few mons) or go and catch something in the wild. I would then either need to have that mon be dead weight in my party or spend time grinding it out, which is extremely frustrating. Furthermore, I might have to temporarily replace a pokémon I am attached to just because I need to drop it for one that can learn an HM. Even if I have a mon in my main team that can learn the HM, sometimes it's just a terrible move like Rock Smash or Cut that is going to take the slot of a better move that I might want to keep, and that I will have to visit the move deleter later and then use a limited ressource (TM or heart scale) to get back. No wonder people just get an HM slave early on and just play with 5 pokémon. If you don't play like a collector and you don't want to spend time leveling up a new mon that will replace one of your main guys, this mechanic just robs you of 5-6 moveslots and/or 1 pokémon slot, for no discernable benefit. So in the worlds of Reggie, if it's not fun, why bother ?

[@joe_simon]

I agree. And i think an HM slave is the exact same thing as Poke Ride in Gen 7 except it restricts creativity, flexibility and ruins the fun i have with a team. I sometimes explore less because i don't want to bother with HMs. Playing less tends to have more fun. And this isn't good for a video game

[@jaide1312]

My approach has always been to meticulously plan my teams beforehand for exactly that reason, and to make sure I'm able to deal with any threat effectively. I also just enjoy this process of building a perfectly balanced team a lot. Like for example my last team in Emerald: Swampert, Exploud, Volbeat, Skarmory, Electrode and Cradily. I made sure I could learn all HM's, and have no redundant typings while also having super effective moves against all types. Having both a grass and electric type is very helpful for all the water routes too. Also, the strongest pokemon in that team was actually Volbeat, It's signal beam is so useful against all the dark, grass and psychic types!

[@2010AZ]

@@jaide1312 This is cool but doesn't work if you're playing a game for the first time

[@IosLocarth]

Honestly, if the games were designed around having HM moves and then make them be like tools or something so they dont limit your moveset would be the best middle ground. I get thats kinda what they did with the ride Pokemon in gen 7 and 9 but the overall map design didnt really utilize it anywhere near as good as gen 3 and 4 did

[@lordpent]

The HM I get most excited to use isn't even an HM- it's Dig. It's not that great, just the same thing as a free escape rope, but it makes me FEEL like a genius for thinking to use it. I think a lot of the actual HMs could benefit from having similarly niche but satisfying uses of their own.

[@eightcoins4401]

Teleport works the same iirc.

[@Bawk_Bawk]

​@@eightcoins4401 no, Dig takes you back to the entrance of any cave or dungeon-like structure. It only works in those locations. Teleport does NOT work in those locations, instead only in the overworld, and returns you to the last Pokemon Center you visited.

[@goodgamer1419]

tbh I think party exp share is like, not an issue, gamefreak just didn't balance the game right.

[@IosLocarth]

I have been preaching this for so long! The exact reason I miss HMs is because of them unlocking more and more of the map to explore. The shining, perfect example of why Hoenn does it best is how when you go through Petalburg Woods you might see the right section thats innaccessable due to a ledge and a cut tree. Once you beat Roxanne and pick up the optional Cut HM, you'll have to back track through Petalburg Woods, now with the ability to cut those trees (located on the north side so it will be at the start of the back track) and go through a new section with a lot of goodies like a Miracle Seed for your Treecko or Shroomish. Almost every HM is like this and will unlock new areas with new items for previous areas, giving you so many reasons to revisit areas after you pass through once, making them more memorable. Once I started doing Key Item Randomizers it really exemplified how great the map design is, what with every run being completely different based on a variety of things like when I get Cut, Rock Smash or Strength, among other things

[@dietsodadude]

I know you were trying to make a hypothetical point with the Tate & Liza fight when discussing rain dance counters to the sunny day strategy, but when you said that the player can retaliate with waterfall or hydro pump, waterfall is not available to the player till after getting to Sootopolis City and the only pokemon that can get the move hydro pump by the Tate and Liza fight are Gyarados and Milotic at level 40, something unlikely unless specifically grinding to get those moves.

[@easy_nin]

If you wanna go real omegabrain, Goldeen learns Waterfall naturally at 40 or so lol. I should have gotten that for footage

[@jierdareisa4313]

I love ALL Professor Bopper videos!!!! ❤

[@tsgtajirisilvergaming90]

I love emerald version it's a game I replay very often. I often nuzlock, or just do a vanilla playthrough, there are a few issues upon replay. The biggest one is that it's a lot of water type pokémon that are not spread out properly throughout the water routes. If you have water pokémon on your team they do not have a good move until after gym 5 when you get surf. Most likely your water pokémon you have on your team will have all three HMs or have an HM friend getting rid of your sixth party slot. Like I said I love this generation, the only few things that I would change is adding the physical special split so dark type pokémon can actually take advantage of their typing, a lot more water pokémon to each route for variation Increasing the options per route of older pokémon for diversity Giving pokémon a more diverse power scaling moves. For example lotad definitely takes a short end of the stick for both typings until much later in the game. In my playthrough I usually just breed one in another game and transfer it over with better moves. Benefiting from the extra XP gain

[@mr.cauliflower3536]

I think charisma rolls are not needed. Because players should be rewarded for good roleplay.

[@rubyredlotus]

Ruby was my first Pokemon game and I'm grateful for that honestly, even though Diamond and Pearl were out at the time.

[@Alex-xk5xt]

these are really good videos. i like the way you approach these games holistically, its a nice change of pace from how they're usually discussed. i dont always agree with you but i think you are using a compelling framework.

[@Cheef.SteveX0]

I really enjoyed the video, but as someone who didn’t play emerald until I was nearly an adult, I don’t feel the same nostalgia towards the game a lot of people do. I am a big fan of HMS, as well as emerald, but I do genuinely think they could have been done better. Making concessions on your team to travel the region is, to me, not a good way to enjoy the game, and neither is making your game over 40% encounter tiles with nothing of particular rarity or strength most of the time. I can appreciate the game being a snapshot of a different time, but I do think there were fine tuning adjustments that could have been made that don’t subtract from the game in any way but make the player experience more enjoyable.

[@pootis.145]

I haven't been able to finish a Pokémon file in at least 3 years, but you have inspired me greatly

[@eightcoins4401]

The "Too much water" meme was a clickbait blurb - referring to *Water Types* in the *Gen 6 Remake of Gen 3*

[@danielgloyd4529]

I loved HM moves. Go explore a cave in real life without preparation and see how far you get. It adds to the sense of adventure. While forcing the player to make a choice. Waste a few move slots on your main team for the HM moves, waste a pokemon slot for an HM slave, or 3 go to the box periodically and store/withdraw you HM users. I mean there is literally a PC in every pokemon center. I never got why people complained so hard about HM moves. Plus one of the huge side objectives in Pokemon is to complete the pokedex. You can't do that if you keep the same 6 mons start to finish. Pick up a few random mons for training throughout the adventure give them some HMs if they can learn them and when they evolve put them in the box and grab another.

[@cascade1460]

This is one of the best Pokemon video essays ive ever watched, gen 3 keeps winning

[@FoulUnderworldCreature]

There's nothing you can say that can convince me that Hoenn needed so many water types or that Luvdisc is a well-placed Pokemon. Luvdisc is the equivalent of a level 5 grey sword being given to you right before the final boss in a game full of swords and not enough bows. It's just bad design.

[@maxwellgarrison2983]

I appreciate the Wario Land 4 music

[@Scepti]

The comment that Natures are more relevant to casual play than EVs is interesting because, while an accurate take, on a purely mathematical level it’s usually untrue. Assuming, a rough estimate to simplify, that your Pokemon rolling up to the Elite Four is level 50 then you’re going to get 1 point in each stat for each 8 EVs you have in that stat. Across 510 EVs that’s some 60-63 points you’re getting on your critters compared to the 10% boost your Nature gives you. A statistically strong but well rounded Pokemon like Swampert is looking at about 100 in each stat at level 50 even assuming your EVs are evenly spread across your stats that’s still +10 in each stat, roughly the same amount that your Swampert would be getting from his nature in just one stat. Though typically your Pokemon won’t have evenly spread out EVs since Pokemon who give HP, Attack, and Speed EVs are a lot more common among the fodder enemies than the other stats, so an Adamant Swampert very well might be getting more Earthquake damage from his Attack EVs from all those Poochyena he mowed down in early game than from his +10% Adamant Nature. The Nature is of course still more relevant than EVs, because at the end of the day who cares about the nerd stuff and stats on your creature that precisely, but nobody wants to use the the absolute loser Makuita that has a Timid label forever branding him as -10% Attack Makuhita There’s some gamer need to not have your numbers go down, even when it doesn’t matter. A similar thing happens when looking at the numbers going up, you just go “Wow my Latios is 10% Faster” instead of thinking about what that actually means

[@yourdemiseishere]

The water part is prob the most dragging on part of the game as well as the original was actually saying too much water types as well.

[@eightcoins4401]

Which was referring to specifically Water Types in the Gen 3 Remakes of Gen 6

[@garyella1301]

If I could change the HMs but keep the purpose: Make the HM ability useable outside of battle for smashing rocks and pushing boulders once you beat the respective gym for the unlocked HM, but don't make the move mandatory to have on your moveset. You get the feeling of adventure whilst not keeping the player hostage by having the move on a pokemon. Especially annoying in platinum where you need all the HM moves to climb mt coronet and take with you into the distortion world, it either means taking 5 team members and 1 HM pokemon or 6 team members and one with the HM moves which is not ideal no matter what.

[@salsathemonkey22]

How Fanboy and Chum Chum tackles existentialism vibes

[@orangesilver8]

The funny thing about rock smash is it's so incredibly weak, but you get it right before the game throws like 30 arons at you. Which it's double super effective against. And it's early enough in the game that you wouldn't have a high base power move like flamethrower which, if it had STAB, would be almost as strong as double super effective rock smash even if the flamethrower was resisted. So there's a very brief window where rock smash is useful in battle. For specifically fighting pokemon double weak to it while you don't have strong moves of your own type yet.

[@nathanieljones8043]

The physical special spilt didn't really add anything other than making certain mons use their stab more. Personally I pfer the old model because it lead more interesting design choices gender is a top tier even without the ability to use his stab. This still true for types like electric and kinda fighting but most of the time high attack extricate types don't learn any form of coverage.

[@aclashoffireandice4084]

I like HMs too. The thing is, I don't mind SM's Ride Pokémon system as a replacement. For me, HMs are good because they allow for interesting, organic traversal gates. Gen 5 has several places where your way is arbitrarily blocked by people just standing there for no real reason, and then they vanish for no real reason when the story lets you progress. Seriously, just put a stream in the way! This is at its absolute worst in SwSh, where Team Yell blocks you until you get the badge, and then they usually just disappear; and literally the only new traversal option you unlock in the whole game is the surfing bike. HMs would be really great if Pokémon had developed in a different direction - if exploration was part of the challenge, instead of entirely for discovery, then bringing an HM Pokémon would be a choice with merit, leading you to ask yourself "is it worth bringing a suck move to take a shortcut, or should I take the long way, risking running out of HP and PP before I get where I need to go?". This would obviously have to go alongside other design choices, like limited inventory space and an interconnected, almost Metroidvania-like world, but I think, in such a game, the people complaining about HMs would be told that they just don't get it. Was there another point in there? I forget. I guess I just like talking about what could have been, lol.

[@coreydopson2030]

You said abilities are immutable but they can in fact be turned off by other abilities like Nuetralizing gas as well as being able to be changed by a handful of moves and abilities like Mummy.

[@eightcoins4401]

Honestly, I like the idea of HMs on paper but they're godawful in execution most of the time. They should require you to think more than just being really basic lock and key type wayblocks. Especially egregious with how most of the time, the Key is lying 5 foot away from the lock. Closest I can think of to them actually doing that is the strength boulder puzzles in Gen 2.

[@rockowlgamer631]

I didn't mind HMs just make them forgettable cause nothing is annoying as having a terrible move that I can't replace when I don't need it anymore, now I have to go to Lilycove City to go say hi to the move deleter every time. Concerning the water issue, maybe if they had divided up the water with more of the land it would've been perfect and IGN wouldn't have complained about it.