Pokémon Generation 2 Hates Itself and Why You Should Love It

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[@ProfessorBopper]

This comment section is how I learned Angel Hernandez retired

[@willehrhardt2743]

It gets more intriguing- apparently he was forced to retire and negotiated a payout with MLB.

[@easy_nin]

@@_Sinduss Which one is that? I don't know the GSC source code

[@Nespeon]

Dang I just saw a video about him on baseballdoesntexist

[@The_Ninja_Tree]

i was happy reading before but im so happy to read it on a random pokemon video that horrible man cant hurt us anymore thank god lol

[@aikou2886]

Who?

[@resyrum5301]

This video is amazing, but you made the fatal error of assuming I care for the opinions of a Totodile hater

[@Borchert97]

Yeah honestly I don't understand how you can hate on the objectively best Johto starter. Cyndaquil is only the objectively best starter in PLA. Otherwise Totodile is far superior in every way.

[@IcycleBicycle]

Where are the Meganium fans aka the girls at?? Come on I've seen you everywhere recently just admit it already Meganium has a bland and boring design and thank goodness it is so weak becuz a pokemon looking like that deserves NO attention Def worst of the WORST starters ever (even stat wise)

[@IcycleBicycle]

​@Borchert97 sadly not in speed and Feraligatr can't even move first to SAVE it's life

[@tarkusvontortellini1877]

not even 5 mins in and mans quoting PLATO in relation to gen2 pokemon.

[@blueberriesinmycoffee1234]

I know, isn't it great? Novelty, the spice of life, all that

[@ianh1504]

Quoting plato quoting socrates even

[@phillipanselmo8540]

​@blueberriesinmycoffee1234 this isn't novelty, this is what we call an asspull

[@blueberriesinmycoffee1234]

@@phillipanselmo8540 Ew, gross.

[@wasinoorazam9390]

Love this so much

[@CaptainAstronaut]

This video would be perfect, if not for the unwarranted Totodile SLANDER

[@MerkhVision]

Yeah that was out of pocket lol

[@javiercama8270]

Hey I know this guy

[@calebhayes7691]

I can't stand the Feraligatr line. I'm aware 90% of that comes from struggling against it with the Typhlosion line I chose as a kid, but I'll forever stand against that blue crocodile

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

The Totodile line is the only fully realized one. (With Chikorita, excepted Bayleef). Though, the Pokemon that spent less time in the oven (Cyndaquil Line, and again Bayleef) ending up the favorites is on brand with the mess that is Gen 2

[@Vance731]

Totodile is > chikorita, but < than cyndiquil

[@LilyLinko]

Might be yelling out into the void a bit with this one - but I've always felt that gen 2 had the best sound design of the entire franchise. G/S/C specifically, not the remakes. The sound effects, and especially the music, just make SUCH effective use of the GBC's limited sound hardware, and are just such masterpieces of composition... I cannot think of a single other *thing* that so perfectly evokes a spirit of adventure as the gen 2 games do. The highs, the lows, the excitement, the melancholy, everything... the sound alone highlights gen 2 as one of the peaks of the franchise for me.

[@longsocks7798]

I agree for the most part, but dragon’s den is an absolute NIGHTMARE to listen to

[@HighPriestFuneral]

The music of Gen 2 has always stayed with me, the haunting Ruins of Alph theme, the "is-more-epic than-it-has-any-right-to-be" Rival theme, (which Soul Silver and Heart Gold somehow elevated to sound even more grandiose). The underground theme is great, the National Park's music is tranquility incarnate. Vs. Champion has this frenetic beat to it, which somehow comes to together to give it a larger than life feel.

[@casssieboy]

For Johto, absolutely, for Kanto, not so much unfortunately

[@parkershaw3753]

_FWAA SHA-SHA_

[@SAGGING_GUT]

GSC has the best music of any game from nintendo imo

[@Dracokey54]

Nothing could have possibly been more unhinged and funny than going "Are the adolescent bird from these two different beloved children's cockfighting games the same? For answers, we turn to ancient philosophers."

[@Ricekrispy10]

This guy referenced Greek philosophers and a publicly disliked MLB umpire in his video about Gen 2 Pokémon. Incredible.

[@backhander8710]

Bopper was a teacher so ig it makes sense, he's such an eloquent speaker tbh

[@MerkhVision]

Combines a bunch of my interest perfectly! Video games, history/philosophy, and sports all in one video! It’s really cool

[@Ocarinist_Drew]

I think it's important for people to realize that when these games came out, nobody saw them as "Gen 2". These were seen as "Pokemon but better". These were the sequals to RBY, and they only came out a few years later. Nobody was sick of Gen 1 Pokemon yet. Nobody was sick of Kanto yet. We were just happy to have more Pokemon games. There wasn't this huge distinction between Gen 1 and Gen 2 mons.

[@alvedonaren]

Okay, but the way they handled Pokemon like Slugma and Misdreavus would have been just awful if it had been done to gen 1 Pokemon in RBY, making these really weak earlygame Pokemon only available at the very end of the postgame. When you get Slugma there is nothing for it to do before it gains enough levels to evolve. They added a Ghost-type gym leader only for him not to use one of the only two ghost lines in the entire game and instead use Golbats.

[@AztecCroc]

@@alvedonaren Morty doesn't use Golbat. He uses Gastly, 2 Haunters, and Gengar. Nor does any trainer in the gym, all of them using Gastlys and Haunters.

[@alvedonaren]

@@AztecCroc May have mixed him up with Agatha. The point is still, that the Ghost gym leader just reuses Haunter instead of making use of Misdreavus.

[@phyllotaxis]

@@alvedonaren Yeah, but when the games came out nobody cared about that. It was cool whenever a new pokemon showed up, but all that really mattered was having a new region to explore, and later getting to revisit the previous one. The fact that new pokemon kept showing up all the way to the end was just a bonus.

[@alvedonaren]

@@phyllotaxis I don't agree. Imagine being a Slugma or Misdreavus fan and being unable to use the Pokemon in an actual playthrough unless you catch it in a previous playthough and trade it over.

[@fossfox]

The entire first argument is courtroom lawyer speech-tier BS, I love it

[@Vmac1394]

It's ironically complete and utter sophistry.

[@ProfessorBopper]

@@Vmac1394who am I trying to deceive with a tongue-in-cheek argument?

[@appleseed8282]

​@@ProfessorBopperMe Specifically Your trying to Gaskeep Girlgate Bossboss me into believing Onyx isn't real

[@zyaicob]

​@@ProfessorBopperit got me so genuinely angry. The suggestion that Pokémon is no more than a calculator and a spreadsheet, that emotional experiences of our Pokémon aren't literally exactly what Pokémon is about. The 52% figure come by so disingenuously by including Pokémon you can't use to fight the gyms or elite 4, the arbitrary and nonsensical decision to say that end stage evolutions are new Pokémon but pre evolutions aren't. If the goal was to incite rage congratulations.

[@ProfessorBopper]

@@zyaicob the following section (about one minute later) addresses all of those points (on your side no less) because no matter which way the data gets sliced, the numbers all come out technically true but not representative of the experience itself (so no, the goal wasn’t to incite you over a children’s game, you’re just easily incited)

[@NanoSwarm]

Gen 2 is perfect if you were a dumbass 5 year old like me who barely understood reading and beat the entire game with a weepinbell using slam. So many weird random events and things and secrets, it really felt like anything was possible in those games.

[@SerFondue]

I would argue that inherently I am still that dumbass 5 year old with Weepinbell using slam

[@Begeru]

Gen 1 felt the same way for me. I could barely read at the time.

[@hyperbolic3833]

I learnt to read so I could play Pokémon and read comics

[@BlitzWhat]

It wouldn't be any fun to run six of the same Pokemon. But three Donphan, one of whom is a robot? Now that's entertainment.

[@easy_nin]

Maybe Gen 9 isn't so bad after all

[@GilbertGarfield911]

@@easy_nin let's not get ahead of ourselves

[@dalfvideos]

“Are these the same Pokémon? Aristotle fans will say no” that’s exactly the moment I stopped what I was doing and aggressively clicked on the subscribe button.

[@gkdunch]

using advanced baseball stats to compare pokemon is why I'm here

[@rcrude8866]

Its time, lets go youtube Algorithm, make it two in a row. Edit: Don't you think I didn't hear that Yakuza 0 ost regarding steelix.

[@easy_nin]

But did you hear the Yakuza 1 ost?

[@rcrude8866]

I will hear every yakuza ost from now on. Besides those that uhhh I forgot.

[@cyrusrule3164]

"Some pokemon, like sunkern and hoppip, wouldn't fit as boss pokemon for the same reason you wouldn't use pidgey or metapod or kakuna as boss pokemon" *pidgey and metapod and kakuna on screen as boss pokemon*

[@nc5958]

Game Freak using Pidgey, Metapod, and Kakuna for gym leader teams was their decision. He meant Pokémon fans would not use them as boss Pokémon.

[@cyrusrule3164]

@@nc5958 I actually don't think that is what he meant. During that section, the whole discussion is about why so few gen 2 pokemon appear as boss pokemon. He then points out that it makes sense that some gen 2 pokemon wouldn't appear as boss pokemon because they are too weak (sunkern and hoppip), but then he jokingly invalidates this reasoning immediately afterword, referencing very weak kanto pokemon that also shouldn't be boss pokemon by that same logic, but somehow still are. He's saying that you might think sunkern and hoppip can't be boss pokemon because they're to weak, but if metapod and kakuna are allowed to be boss pokemon, they really should be fair game.

[@nc5958]

@@cyrusrule3164 I understand but there is no Grass Type gym in Johto. Fun Fact: More Gen 2 Pokémon are used by the Kanto Gym Leaders than the Johto Gym Leaders in GSC.

[@MythrilZenith]

I'm two minutes in and already I can tell I'm going to enjoy this far more than any of the million "Gen 2 was broken so I 'fixed' it" videos where they just go through and apply Pokemon Showdown logic to the gym leaders.

[@McBloodFart]

gen 2 is broken, and it still works anyway

[@roymustang87]

never happened

[@AnyThingWorx]

nobody has ever done this btw lmao

[@ValentineGodek]

@@AnyThingWorxidk man, I’ve watched at least two different KZbin videos that match that description perfectly. Good on ya if your watching habits didn’t have the algorithm recommend that stuff to you.

[@noukan42]

​@@AnyThingWorxthey absolutely does. Not to a radical red exstent, but they do. They clearly do not make Gym leaders that are supposed to be beatable by 8 years olds.

[@discobites]

23:51 Unown is so obscure that even the pro doesn’t know what it’s movepool is

[@Nisi1]

that's because it's hidden. powerful, though

[@SquishyOfCinder]

Not even obscure, that's a very common fact he didn't know.

[@discobites]

@@SquishyOfCinder you missed the joke…

[@IcycleBicycle]

Unknown is crap but I will ALWAYS love the ruins of alph becuz they gave me a secret Natu - that I evolved into Xatu one of my faves in the region because in anime Xatu went nuts and said Xa Xa Xa Xa Xa XaXa while striking weird poses 😂😂

[@SquishyOfCinder]

@@IcycleBicycle *Unown

[@starryslight7095]

You know it's a bopper video when the prisoners in the cave become relevant. come on guys, these are two totally different pidgeottos. GOSH I love the egg versus onix comparison, it's so funny. I love these over-the-top deep dives and I love your justification of a game that most pokemon players just tend to overlook without preamble. Speak your mind king

[@Decekko]

Generation 2 was perfect for the time. As a kid with no internet, with no powerful consoles like Playstation or Xbox, the simple fact that you could play a game on Gameboy with events depending on the daytime or the day of the week was simply stunning. Not to mention the beautiful sound design, the continuous reminders to Red and Blue (stepping the first time to Kanto was a shock since we did not even have the idea this was possible) and, most importantly, the constant rise of "urban legends" related to the game and its special events that were arising between the kids playing, giving a genuine sense of exictement about the game. I am completely aware of the structural problems of this game (level curve, Kanto itself, bla bla bla) but as an adult fan who doesn't buy the new games i wonder: are the new games giving similar vibes to today's kids? Did gen VI or VII give a similar experience to the kids that played them as the first pokemon game?

[@MorganTiller]

So im old and gen 2 is king. Scarlet and violet were the most fun ive had since a kid. Games might not be technical masterpieces, but theyre a blast

[@carrosaX]

Well I can't speak on the 3d era, but as someone who's first pokemon game as a kid was gen 5, that sense of wonder, of anything being possible, the fake rumors between my friends, I got to have all of that. And I really cherish getting to have that experience. I remember coming back to the ruins in White 2 where you meet the Lake Trio again and again because multiple friends were convinced there was a way to get to Sinnoh from there.

[@elpirataretro8734]

I have played Pokémon for almost 10 years, mostly Gen 3 and Gen 1, after some years of getting away from the franchise (Gen 2 and 4 were boring to me and skipped Gen 5) I played Gen 7 in a real 3DS (I have emulated games all my life) And it was like being a kid again, the story, the quirky dialogues and the breeze of fresh air. It was beautiful (I played Ultra Moon for the record).

[@kritorys514]

Gen 2 was GBC at its finest. For all of its wonderful nostalgia, Gen 1 was reduced to a rough draft by the Gen 2 polish. This real time clock/calander element was absolutely insane at the time.

[@Xainfinen]

I just can't stand the 3D graphics of the new gens with their characters models and Pokémons that look like plastic. Last title I played was HG/SS and that was Peak Pokémon for me. The 2D era games will never look better than with G4-5 aesthetic. Then I saw the "Let's Go" engine, the game is beautiful I would love a remake/rework of G1-2 with this engine so much.

[@ManaphyandManaqua]

I'm glad I'm not the only person who absolutely hated the Pokemon Tower in Lavender getting revamped into a radio tower

[@weggygaygay9940]

it's so fucked up to think about

[@LakituAl]

OK but if your favorite dinosaur is the pachicephalosaurus and they give you 20 of them, you can have a Ram Royal Battle, which would have made little me real happy.

[@SnapdragonSK]

You could even raise them all in a Ram Ranch

[@parkershaw3753]

I'm a big fan of sauropods and I'd take 50 of them and stage massive grazing scenes

[@nicholasschake8113]

Excellent video. Unless you were there, it would be hard to explain how there weren’t “generations” when G/S came out. It wasn’t an ongoing series, it was closer to an expansion pass than anything else. People loved seeing the original 150 Pokemon again. It is only after the following half dozen generations when “Gen 2” became (mis)understood as its own standalone “generation”. BW and BW2 had more time between their releases than RBY and GS, and it’s only really because of their naming conventions that we don’t see GS as sequels, and this judge their Pokemon distribution the same way.

[@dee7352]

Wow. That rly puts things into perspective. Thanks for sharing

[@SkyBlueFox1]

This is probably the most succinct way to describe "Gen 2" in general, really. So much time has passed since Pokemon was still new on the scene that a lot of its conventions are kinda taken for granted now - the franchise has become such an entrenched part of pop culture that we no longer bat an eyelash at how its organized. That being said, the realization that RBY and GS came out within like, two years of each other gave me whiplash lmao

[@patrickshepherd1341]

I played rby when they came out, but never got to play Gen 2. But I remember when it came out. I would sit in Walmart for hours with the players guide like, "there's day and night? There's a phone and radio? There's eggs? And male and female everything? And breeding? And this and that and this and that?!?!" You just can't explain that magic to people who weren't in the mud of pokemania during its first few years. The show, the gb games, the cards... and then THIS? Ridiculous. There is just no recreating that kind of wonder.

[@AnyThingWorx]

while that's amazing and all that doesn't excuse the awful game design

[@FireTrainer92]

​@@AnyThingWorx it contextualizes it. It's bad in the context of later games It's fun and decent in the context of the time period it was made in (not without error).

[@justsomejojo]

I struggle to call GSC Kanto "podstgame" as so many do, because the way pokemon (and sometimes evolution items) are spaced out really makes it feel like it was balanced like a continuation of your team building, not a victory lap for your fully-grown champions. It's kinda weird to think about it like that because it reduces the Elite 4 to a mere stepping stone. Also, a funny thing I recently realized: Houndoom is SUCH a good indicator of the march of time and power creep in Pokemon. The reason it is such a late encounter in Gen2 (and night exclusive to boot) is likely because its stats and movepool are weirdly optimized compared to almost everything else in the game. Of course, it doesn't really matter (Onix vs Egg and all that, though I do find it a tad reductive) in the end, but back then, getting not one but TWO moves of your own type early that ALSO complement your stat spread was genuinely pure gold. Nowadays, Houndoom is just one of many (and competitively, it's long been outpaced despite being a topdog in Gen2 and good in Gen3) but back then, you barely got that. Gen 2 is the one Pokemon generation that actively resists being played fast, I feel. Its encounter levels are low (later on), its events (that you have to interact with for access to certain mons) are restricted to certain weekdays and mechanics like friendship and eggs are drawn out to be with you almost an entire game if you focus on them (my Golbat never evolve by the E4 in Gen2). It's relaxing if you are planning to play them for a long time or are a wide-eyed kid experiencing it for the first time, but in the realm of challenge runs and fast replays, GSC's focus on a "living" world you slowly experience as the week days pass and gift you with new things to see, doesn't fit in as well. I think that's also a big reason why Gen2 gets its modern reputation.

[@gmerc1333]

it's both a continuation (mechanically) and a victory lap (mechanically and especially narratively), but i would still not describe it as postgame

[@nc5958]

Yes. Most Pokémon fans call GSC Kanto "post game" just because the player defeats the Elite Four and Lance before most of the region is unlocked. If you take a closer look at the level curve, Clair and Janine use teams at levels similar to the sixth gym leader of most regions. The GSC Elite Four and Champion are at lower levels than every other main series Pokémon game because they were not designed to be the endgame final bosses. Blue's team is at levels most players expect the Elite Four and Champion to have. The rest of the Kanto Gym Leaders use teams we expect a region's seventh and eighth gym leader to have. Many people complain about how Houndour is only available in Kanto Route 7 at night. It sounds like bad game design for Umbreon to be the only Dark type Pokémon available in Johto but there were only five fully evolved Dark type Pokémon back then. The player had enough ways to defeat Morty without Umbreon. Gastly, Haunter, and Gengar are Ghost-Poison type, so the player can use Ground or Psychic type moves to hit them super effectively. A strong Water type Pokémon that knows Surf can dominate the Ecruteak Gym. "But Johto had three gyms weak to Fire type moves." Bugsy, Pryce, and Jasmine were all given teams that do not require the player to use Fire type Pokémon to defeat them. Dark-Fire type was OP in Gen 2 due to the lack of Pokémon that resisted both types. The only Pokémon that resisted both STAB moves from Houndour/Houndoom were themselves, Poliwrath, and Tyranitar.

[@MerkhVision]

That’s some great perspective and analysis there!

[@snuffles504]

Yes, that last paragraph is EXACTLY it. I've been playing Crystal recently and have logged 60+ hours because I keep finding things to do - daily events, apricorn farming, Pokémon hunting via specific times of day or days of the week, hatching baby Pokémon just because they're adorable. It's such a nice change of pace from the modern games. The Johto maps in particular are well-connected and quickly traversable without being bland, allowing you to constantly backtrack and enjoy doing so. Growth mechanics are slow and methodical, powerful moves are hard to come by. Overall the feeling is very cozy and welcoming.

[@nc5958]

@@snuffles504 Powerful moves are hard to come by but I would rather get them even if it means trading my Pokémon from Gen 2 to Gen 1. I used the Time Capsule to teach Golem Rock Slide in Pokémon Crystal. Another one I might want to try is teaching Weepinbell Razor Leaf four levels earlier. The weak trainers make it difficult for Weepinbell to reach Level 42 before the Elite Four. Pokémon Gold and Silver most likely wanted the player to trade their Level 38 Weepinbell to a Gen 1 game and evolve it there. One reason why Chikorita is my favorite Johto starter is because I love early game Razor Leaf.

[@unboundsoul3582]

This video started off with what I assumed was pedantic um actually but rapidly turned into a very compelling look at data and numbers to back up WHY gen 2 feels like shit at times.

[@jimirio4191]

I refuse to experience Gen 2 as an adult. I have fond childhood memories that my min-max adult brain will replace. That being said, this rambling yet coherent nonsense was the breath of fresh air compared to modern overproduced KZbin content. Thank you.

[@muchachoaventurero3590]

You know? I have this never ending appetite for early gen pokemon retrospectives.

[@easy_nin]

Soon

[@easy_nin]

Gen 3 will probably be up on Friday or Saturday for the public

[@rockeater64]

the touhou project jumpscare was crazy i was about to fall asleep and suddenly i see clownpiece on my screen

[@chiri-theoden4264]

Angel Hernandez must have heard your joke about him and announced his retirement lmao. You have done a service for not just the game of baseball, but for the entire world, and we thank you profusely.

[@cherry_grove]

This video was phenomenal. I never thought I'd encounter someone who can simultaneously trash talk and defend the same things. It's like you're your own devil's advocate in the greatest way.

[@Freefall347]

Gold/Silver was interesting because it kind of "fixed" or updated some of the issues with Red/Blue. One of the biggest examples was creating a proper Ghost Type attack, as well as creation of Dark Type, so that there was a legit counter to Psychics now. Splitting Spcl into attack and defense instead of a single attribute. Plus introduction of stuff like berries, breeding, and the crazy rarity of Shiny pokemon. As others have mentioned, it sort of functioned like an expansion patch of Red/Blue (not to mention updated portraits were generally much nicer looking).

[@DraphEnjoyer]

This why I tend to not like HGSS as much because it barely does anything to fix any of the actual issues with Gen 2.

[@ShadowMuppetX]

See, this I can understand and agree with to some extent. I think a lot of the criticisms about gen 2 are based on expectations the series wouldn't begin to set set until gen 3, but HGSS are gen 4, not gen 2. They aren't "Pokemon 2" anymore and the series had a number of expectations that the remakes didn't meet.

[@KillerSquidHugs]

This video is over an hour but is so dense, it's crazy. Gonna need to watch this a couple times to let it all sink in

[@xzeroxman]

If only it got ancient power :(

[@easy_nin]

Nobody will notice

[@xzeroxman]

@@easy_nin Yeah, I tried to tell him I'm no gen 2 expert 😅

[@easy_nin]

@@xzeroxman I think it makes the interview part even better

[@Anarchist2]

@@xzeroxman your career is over

[@xzeroxman]

@@Anarchist2 😂

[@TheMicroNinja]

3 minutes in and already getting philosophical. I love the KZbin community. Also this video was super good! I like the quote of "I like Blue, but only because other colors exist". All around not the vibe I was expecting from the video, but I was thoroughly entertained anyways. Keep up the good work!

[@Tm4k10]

My childhood memory of gen 2 was a magical one, and that’s what counts. Who cares if technically there were deficiencies

[@MrEdes7]

If you haven't yet, you should take a look at shin megami tensei to get an idea of how disposable pokemon were probably supposed to be in Gen 1 and 2, I think most people who never played other creature catching games before pokemon don't realize how the genre felt at the time which causes a disconnect between how the players think the game is supposed to be played and how the developers thought the game was supposed to be played

[@qwert1043]

As someone who casually thinks about game design a bit too much, you perfectly bottled a lot of thoughts I’ve been struggling to put into words at 55:25. Pokémon excels in having the Chemical X that a game needs to be fun instead of theoretically well made. Most KZbin reviews focus on the objective design of a game instead of how it plays, but yours are a breath of fresh air. Here’s hoping this video pops off like the Onyx one, people need more quality like this.

[@M4x_P0w3r]

I think we can have a mix of both. There's no need to min-max and streamline everything, but at the same time, being able to steamroll all the gym leaders by just clicking the most damaging super effective attack one after the other gets stale after a while. Having to do an extra bit of thought and winning with a more complex strategy can feel more rewarding and earned.

[@qwert1043]

I agree with you 100%. Mons really needs a some more difficulty to make the player interact with its systems, but it still needs the vibes that make it what it is. Pokémon is mostly Chemical X while something like a well made Romhack is mostly concrete good design. Hopefully someday we get a good mix.

[@mjangelvortex]

@@M4x_P0w3r Correct. And in some cases to add a bit of challenge you may not even have to do too many drastic changes. Just maybe change some of the NPC character's Pokémon's movepools. Maybe give some of them items as well here and there.

[@Kurspeh]

watching this video I didn't get the angel hernandez reference but right after I finished it he announced his retirement and now social media is blowing up with his bad calls

[@Thyyyyyyyyme]

I feel like the initial argument is... pointless? The idea of it isn't bad, the splitting of the special stat in gen 2 does change every pokemon in some way. Most of the time, in incredibly minor ways, but in some cases in major ways (Chansey will never be as much of a genuine threat as it used to be, because it's special attack dropped off a crater). There is something to be said about it changing the texture of a pokemon between generations, making them feel new. But the problem with this argument, that includes incredibly minor changes as well as major ones, is that it's the case with every single pokemon in every single game. Every pokemon game changes the pokemon in some way, making it experientially different to catch and train them. An Espeon in gen 2 does not have access to the same moves, items or environment as an Espeon in gen 8. The gen 4 physical/special split, where and when you catch them, what other trainers have them, what future 'environments' whether their evolution item is early or late, etc, etc. Every pokemon, in every game, is not exactly the same as they were before. Which kind of makes it a moot point, or at the very least an unconvincing one, because later gens do not feel like they have the same kind of issue. I know it's not like, a serious argument, or anything. And you have much better arguments later, even if I don't agree with all of them. But I do kind of have to roll my eyes a little at it's inclusion. Idk, it's still a very enjoyable and interesting video, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts on some of the later games.

[@MonotoneTim]

Love the half-assed arts and crafts.

[@kingbeerz7978]

For me that daycare egg hatched into a shiny igglybuff, it’s a 1 in 12 chance of a shiny, but it was my first. Always loved that sparkle.

[@Begeru]

Just a small example of an annoying thing about Gen 2 is that barely any of the Gym leaders have Gen 2 Pokémon at all. Which makes it look like it hates itselfs even more.

[@OpinionatedAussie]

Yeah he, uhh, talks at length about that in the video.

[@rjd-kh8et]

There's no reason why Falkner, Jasmine, Pryce, and especially Morty should repeat Pokémon from the same evolutionary line when there were Johto Pokémon they could have used to add more variety.

[@RsSooke]

People need to remember - Pokémon was following up its smash success. If it didn’t include a bunch of Pokémon people recognized it felt like a big risk.

[@DeckKnight]

Ah yes, Bird Keeper Lance, Flying type Champion.

[@easy_nin]

Dude at 0:02 selling you a snack for $1 MILLION when you could buy multiple houses with that instead

[@roymustang87]

doubt

[@sumthinorother9615]

These are in pokedollar Converted to $, by the bicycle standard, that’s maybe a hundred bucks

[@mjangelvortex]

@@sumthinorother9615 Yeah, the money in the Pokémon games are more closer to yen than American dollars.

[@easy_nin]

Obviously it is based on JPY, which makes the tail more like $10000, whcih is still very expensive and more of an exotic novel delicacy for rich people. To go even further, this is guaranteed to be for gameplay logic purposes because you can only hold 999999P, so that you could never buy it in the first place. If it wasn't for gameplay reasons, I'd guess that their price would be comparable to A5 beef. Also, € is cooler than $ because it has more colors, like the Pokemon stats have

[@gregkareem9824]

​@@easy_ninproof

[@alexhaupt2134]

I just clicked from this to the Gen 1 video--only to realize I had started and never finished that one. Wow, what a huge improvement! I'm really impressed by how much more pointed and thoughtful this one is. The scripting is better, the delivery is better, and there's an actual thesis here and logical progression. Nice work!!

[@warmcrunch3829]

Did not click on this expecting Pokémon-Metaphysics. Right on.

[@NickJamNG]

Still in the middle of watching, but including Onix and Scyther in the list for Gen 2 Pokemon whose lines are obtainable before endgame is misleading. Their Gen 1 pre-evos are obtainable, but the Metal Coat needed to evolve them is not available until the postgame. EDIT: There's a reason I noted that I was still watching. Good on you for being thorough!

[@SoCalSon395]

3:24 is great there's really no one else doing it like you

[@DIRTYSOUTHSHINOBI]

That Sun flora part where you said it was the 49th strongest wild pokemon giving it a score of "NOT FUCKING WORTH IT" bro I wasn't expecting that part to be funny as it was lol definitely caught me off guard.. NEW SUB

[@shawesomest]

I’ve gone through this and the previous video twice each now and I must say that I absolutely adore how you go about analyzing these games. You talk about a number of things the average player never even considers, while also doing the work to tackle assumptions about the games that have become all but fact to most. It is incredibly well researched and a treat to see! And as a fan of Johto more than most other games in this series, I do like how you pointed to the intended playstyle of the game being different from how later games are. Really drives home a disconnect between how people look back at these games and the issues with using only a modern lens for that. Also, must say, seeing Etrian Odyssey be used here both for visual examples and for the background music is quite nice! Going off your love of the quirks of the games (Gen 1 and 2) so far, I’ll hazard a guess that the 2nd EO is your favorite?

[@easy_nin]

All the EO stuff was actually my idea and 2 is my least favorite lol. I just had footage of it for the "grinding" example on hand. You only get something like "capturing" a new "Pokemon" in EO4 anyway, which I really liked as an alternative option. If you're curious, I'd spontaneously say my ranking is Nexus>4>3>5>1(R)>2(R). Back to your Pokemon point, I think you're right with saying that most people accept one thing as a fact instead of looking for alternative ways to play. And points like "I want to have my favorites on Route 1! It is bad design!" doesn't really count for the old games because you weren't supposed to know which Pokemon are in the game and they are designed for a "first playthrough" and rumors between friends.

[@gmerc1333]

this budding movement away from groupthink is one that pokemon as a fandom desperately needs

[@jellojiggler1693]

I honestly don't think there's that much groupthink in the fandom? The people who are the loudest and post the most online, yes. But I wouldn't consider them the whole fandom. The average pokemon fan genuinely liked gen 9, liked the alolan anime arc, enjoyed g/s/c, has a reasonable opinion of gen 5, etc. Or they didn't, and they have a legitimate reason for feeling the way they do. We just don't make incindiary youtube videos or post hot takes on twitter. Feel free to disagree.

[@mjangelvortex]

The Pokémon fandom is so big that there's "groupthink" love and hate for nearly every game. For every negative video I've seen on Gen 2, I've seen another praising it.

[@gmerc1333]

​@@jellojiggler1693 there is an insane amount of groupthink in pokemon fandom and its peripheries. people will 100% subscribe to downright stupid ideas perpetuated by enough people formally or informally in passing and never do their own independent thinking or research as to whether or not something is or has ever been true. people will, with full confidence, describe imaginary situations that they're completely sure represent reality because they align with a pre-held narrative of how a monster or part of a game functions, whether they've actually experienced it or not. this ALSO happens with people who are only passing or casual fans, because they're most likely to hear the loudest (and typically the wrongest) voices telling them what they should think. you might be fundamentally misunderstanding what exactly groupthink means if you think it's referring to gen warring.

[@jellojiggler1693]

@@gmerc1333 So, you just described the majority of the loudest people who comment/post/make things online? Not just with pokemon, with things in general. Thats what I said in my first comment. I didn't say it doesn't happen; I said it doesn't happen as much as you might think because most of us don't live online and we're the ones that actually constitute most of the fandom. Also, the most casual fans... aren't online, once again. They're just playing the game/watching the anime at home and mostly avoiding the online discourse because they're too casual to care(nothing wrong with that btw). They aren't watching hour long discourses on youtube. But if you don't understand that and look for answers in an echo chamber all you get are echos. THATS what I'm saying. I think YOU are misunderstanding ME. I read 1984 so I think I know what the term means. But maybe I don't. From Psychology Today: "Groupthink is a phenomenon that occurs when a group of well-intentioned people makes irrational or non-optimal decisions spurred by the urge to conform or the belief that dissent is impossible. The problematic or premature consensus that is characteristic of groupthink may be fueled by a particular agenda-or it may be due to group members valuing harmony and coherence above critical thought." From Britanica: "Groupthink, mode of thinking in which individual members of small cohesive groups(loud people online) tend to accept a viewpoint or conclusion that represents a perceived group consensus,(the alolan anime is bad) whether or not the group members believe it to be valid, correct, or optimal(mixed, but a lot of people seemed to enjoy it). Groupthink reduces the efficiency of collective problem solving within such groups." So yes, I was right. I wasn't exclusively referring to gen warring even though some elements of gen warring(like my examples) certainly fall into realms of groupthink, as well as misconceptions about actual in-game mechanics.

[@natalimoina]

​@@gmerc1333Can cosign, this happens all the time and it's the worst

[@slashspade]

I used to play Stadium 2 a lot. Mostly for the minigames though. I never realized that the stadium rentals were super bad, so I thought it was a problem that I had as a player trying to get past the 3rd or 4th stages in the various challenge cups. Knowing that, I may have to relocate all of the gear needed to keep going. I have it all somewhere - the n64, the copy of Stadium 2, the gbc adapter pack for the controller and a copy of Silver I can play. Might be worth trying to conquer a challenge cup for once. Maybe...

[@bladerdj3503]

Remember to check the battery of the cardridge.

[@merlinthetuna]

I don't think I used a single TM over the course of multiple playthroughs of red because "what if I need it later", but I remember noticing how wonky the rental movesets are in part because of how they spread things across evolution lines. Lots of "do you want a Level 50 Charizard with Ember, or a Level 50 Charmeleon with Flamethrower", each of which was just a baffling proposition in its own way.

[@slanax]

I feel like the cave allegory and how with the Special split any Pokemon is technically different in Gen 2 would've worked better with a Pokemon that didn't split its 50 Special into exactly 50 Special Attack and 50 Special Defense

[@IGSA101]

For your first argument, "using a [gen 1 pokemon] in gen two is fundamentally different than in gen 1 (because of the special split)." Is it? The only pokemon that were really effected by the split were high special pokemon that had one of those stats drastically changed and the hitmons. So really just the abra, ghastly, drowzee, tyrogue, staryu, and smoochum lines, as well as snorlax, tauros, and chansey. So 16 out of 150 pokemon are fundamentally different, just over 10%. I'd argue that there are differences between how you use gen 1 pokemon in gen 2, but it’s only because it's a different game, not because of an specific changes to the mechanics.

[@easy_nin]

Can't believe you didn't mention Tangela which got it's Mental Defense cut from 100 to 40. It have even shown it in the Gen 1 video

[@IGSA101]

@@easy_nin I hardly remember that tangela is a pokemon, much less what its gen 1 stats were.

[@tadferd4340]

Gyarados got hit pretty hard as well. Still a strong pokemon, but definitely at it's weakest in Gen2

[@halfpace1462]

Dont forget that the argument is flawed to the core because you can just... transfer a pokemon from gen 1 to gen 2. In fact, a gen 1 shiny DOES exist, it can only be revealved if transfered to gen 2. Hence, they are the same pokemon

[@SoupWizard776]

time for another 1 hour long meal. lets go, i'm really loving this series bopper.

[@JagGentlemann]

Saying that gym leaders would lose their identity if their teams weren't monotype is as much surfice level as their own teams. Their identity could be their strategies, not just "he sure likes rock pokemon". Just look at Pokemon Colosseum bosses: the brute one who spams earthquake, the manipulate one who uses status effects and the calculative one that uses rain + thunder.

[@mjangelvortex]

They sort of did that in Diamond and Pearl for some of the important characters. Giving a Fire Type specialist and an Electric Type specialist Pokémon that learn Fire Punch and Thunder Punch despite not being Fire or Electric Types was their work around for that. Granted Platinum would later swap those Pokémon for actual Fire and Electric types but it's neat to think about. I think another better example would be Steven Stone. He is supposed to specialize in Steel Types but his team includes Rock Types and Ground Types on it in both the original games and their remakes. Funny too considering people considered Wallace an easier Champion to beat. Maybe Steven having a bit more Type variety helped him be more difficult for some players. Him having a fully evolved Psudeo Legendary while Wallace didn't probably helped too.

[@nc5958]

@@mjangelvortex I have always thought Wallace was more difficult to defeat than Steven. Wallace uses a full team of Water type Pokémon but his team is well balanced enough to prevent a strong Grass or Electric type Pokémon from sweeping his entire team. Even though Steven has a Metagross, his Aggron has a terrible moveset and the rest of his team is not that strong. The player will most likely have a strong Water type Pokémon that can defeat half of Steven's team.

[@lukebytes5366]

As someone who played colosseum, you kind of proved the point with how one note those "identitIes" are. Does it not say something that the most memorable character is the guy who spams a single Pokemon line?

[@Thyyyyyyyyme]

@@mjangelvortex The problem with diamond and pearl's approach is that it still frames them as type specialists, and end up highlighting just how dire the pokemon selection was for several types. It can be an interesting choice if Flint has a drifblim, because it's a hot-air balloon and evokes a theme. It's a less interesting one when it feels like they just genuinely did not have the pokemon to fill in the slots, when Flint is still framed as the fire elite four member, all because they arbitrarily locked several of the new pokemon to post-game trade evolutions.

[@jeffreyosborne7466]

Loved the Onix video, listened to it a bunch of times when making weekend commutes to family here in CA. Really happy you made a video for Gen2, made my day

[@Zthewise]

As someone who got Crystal version for Christmas when I was 7, whose battery has long sinced died, Gen 2 will hold a special place in my heart. Gen 2 has its flaws, but I can still appreciate it warts and all.

[@XerxesTexasToast]

The thrill of finding new esoteric guys I've never seen before is why I like to play as many new montamers as I can get my hands on

[@jakemcgoldrick3552]

I’ve always thought that the apparent lack of gen 2 pokemon in johto is because gen 2 wasn’t a new gen in the same vain that later games were new gens, but rather it was an expansion of the original games. The familiar 151 was the fundamental pokemon experience, and so the 100 johto pokemon were only meant to enhance the existing roster, not replace them as the primary set of pokemon to find. It’s like a movie sequel that adds a new character: the main character and his or her friends are still the focus, but the new character just adds a new dynamic to the group.

[@alexwhite2189]

Sprites and animations are so important for me, gen 2 aeroblast hits so much different than in other gens

[@lewdawg5196]

Oh god yeah. Hyper Beam and Ice Beam. Its the Beam attacks they are so satisfying.

[@alexwhite2189]

@@lewdawg5196 I'm feeling like genning dragonite with aeroblast in Crystal and doing a playthrough rn 😆

[@Anonymous36]

Gen 2 mons were harder to find in order to extend the long-term viability of the game's life cycle. Back then, information was difficult to access and evolution methods were obscure. Finding a 1% encounter Yanma was rare. Only found on one route. Some never saw it. Some did. It kept the mystery going. And that made it harder, and more satisfying, to "catch them all". It meant you could spend much longer time diving deep into the game and playing it over a longer time, because there was so much mystery to explore.

[@juandiegotorres9632]

Still a lot of work for a shitty pokemon though...

[@mjangelvortex]

Back then the internet wasn't as mainstream but this was also the era in gaming where loads of big games would also have in-depth guidebooks made about them. Pokémon was no exception to this.

[@sebastiankulche]

Gen 1 was released three years before and never had those "information" problems. If anything they should be more hidden but it somehow isnt. It sounds more like this wasnt intentional and more like the overambition of this game meant they couldnt properly set up more than 200 Pokemon.

[@LatinxGoyslop1994]

The shot at Angel had me rolling

[@jasonbarry3301]

Lt Surge’s Raichu goes hard. Raichu used growl.

[@Rodnallac]

A good tip for the Bug Catching Contest: for winning first place your pokemom (Pinsir or Scyther) must have a lot of HP left when catched.

[@blueberriesinmycoffee1234]

Are those the shadows of toy dinosaurs in Plato's cave? I am unsure, but the idea is funny, and also fitting. The status of Gold and Silver as sophomore games does interesting stuff to them. We often tackle their legacy within the franchise based on expectations which necessarily had not formed yet. It seems likely this was the first pokemon game made with international markets in mind. In that way, looking at some of the more specifically Japanese betamon designs which didn't make it to gold and silver proper is an interesting thing to do. That's just speculation on my part though, I don't know anything about Game Freak in the 90s or otherwise. This was a more focused video topically, but I think the eclectic kinda multimedia approach Bopper and Nin took to it was fantastically cool! Oh, and yay! I got Cubone!

[@easy_nin]

I can't give hearts to comments like Bopper, so imagine this is one from me. And the shadows are 2 different Pidgeotto print outs. You can see one at 43:56!

[@blueberriesinmycoffee1234]

@@easy_nin Ooh, I see! That's even better then, ha!

[@nico1520]

Awesome video! I don't think I've ever disagreed more with an opinion in my entire life, for several reasons. Keep the good work, you're very cool! :)

[@easy_nin]

I have probably never seen a better comment for disagreement, thanks!

[@chreeess]

Only real ones know Angel Hernandez is why the Electabuzz always loose!

[@MasterofInterspace]

Why has no one mentioned that Slowbro does not evolve? Slowpoke has a split evo tree.

[@daesplays8737]

Damn, the mental gymnastics you went through here are admirable.

[@richardqustmrk]

I actually remember when i first played gen 2 i got stuck on chuck and skipped him and hm fly to go fight jasmine instead, came back later at a much higher level and stomped him. I cherish that freedom and ease, so i dont mind the weird level curve in gen 2

[@theghostcreator776]

My favorite Pokemon romhack by far is a gsc hack called Fool's Gold and I think that's largely because it sort of adds the magic back to gen 2. Every Pokemon in the game has been given complete different type(s) and sprites and encounter rates and what kind of Pokemon you can encounter have been completely mixed up to compensate. My favorite example is being able to find a little yanma early as a rare encounter, it makes the little :3 face Along with that there are some secrets discoverable such as ab entire new town and routes and altogether it just gives gen 2 a lot of the wonder and mystique that it originally had that has been lost through the years of learning what the Pokemon in the game are, where they are, and every little secret in the game.

[@easy_nin]

I checked it out and it indeed captures the magic we were talking about in the video and is also by far my favorite one, even before completing it. I think it is also the only one I have seen that isn't purely "battle-focused". I got to one of the new towns and when I say I'm not gonna spoil anything, you know exactly which one I mean... xD Thanks for pointing that hack out!

[@theghostcreator776]

@@easy_nin that town is so cool! And yeah the battle focus isn't there like it is in other hacks which I'm personally really thankful, it feels like it has the gameplay sentiment that mainline games have and that allows for a lot of fun

[@ajh22895]

The guy from the Onix sucks video is back :)

[@hi-i-am-atan]

i feel like there's a very real possibility that i'm going to walk into this being an actual point in a few minutes, but the ancient greek philosophizing about a pokemon who had 50 special in gen i and 50 special atk and special def in gen ii, and who is _depicted in the video_ as having 50 special in gen i and 50 special atk and special def in gen ii, is instilling me with a feeling i can't quite put my finger on like it could've been bugsy's scyther or the rattata that share many routes with pidgey or the ever-iconic pikachu, but no, the whole segment navelgazing over the ways kanto pokemon could be considered distinct entities after the transition to gen ii is predicating entirely on "well, amnesia is no longer absurdly busted"

[@MrBuiznessMan]

Me at 3am: "I like you're funny words magic man...!"

[@joaomarques3609]

Gen 2 is a DLC of Gen 1

[@zaneheaston8254]

Fun fact: My first play through of Pokemon Crystal was very interesting, I used Meganium, Forretress, Arcanine, Lanturn, Ursaring, & Espeon, it was very fun mainly due to the early Growlithe outside Violet City, & Teddiursa in Dark Cave

[@ImmaFarmerInMalaysia]

Not every gen 1 Pokemon has different Special Attack and Special Defense tbf. Rhydon and Mew are examples

[@turtlehermit6047]

I love Pokemon stadium 1&2. One can play red..blue...and yellow Using the transfer pak And can trade with other players using another transfer pak etc. You can also save your Pokemon to it as well. Part two can play both gen one and gen two.. As well as the other features. Save batteries have been a thing for awhile. Nes carts like Zelda used them. Basically ant cart style game that saved has them. Pokemon stadiums have them. You can get the battery changed at most retro game stores. Or buy the batteries.. Small circle batteries with metal arms. Buy a Nintendo screwdriver And do it yourself. I still play the Pokemon stadium games and the family games..its fun to play it with other people.

[@bvd_vlvd]

It's not even that Flamethrower is a comically late addition. I just went through Blue with a Magmar to see how it works and it gets Flamethrower for the Elite four. Thing is, Elite Four in Blue is close to the level of the 16th gym in Crystal. Pokemon feel powerless because they are at the "midgame" levels of a usual pokemon game. Then Black and White came out and redesigned this once again, and now we have pokemon like Hattrem that would evolve somewhere around Snorlax if they were in this game. Mareep reaches its final evolution before Hatenna evolves once. Truly gives you something to look forward towards in the character building sense as you said.

[@MrSpeuca2000]

Im doing a replay of gold, my partner does silver, we are going to do crystal together... And we are having so much fun. Just walking around finding stuff, grinding, i am already over 55hours in in 2 weeks. And i just keep loving it. I grew up with gen 4 and 5... But gen 2, is my beloved

[@ljpal18]

This guy's pronunciation of some of the Pokemon is worthy of a soap wash.

[@andream8655]

Hey I just realized loved the different perspective you put from "wow the leaders mostly use gen 1 pokemon" to "but their aces are gen 2" and cementing that importantance with both anecdotes and general understanding of story. It's nice to see data change through Truely critical lenses. An amazing video, done by someone with real thought

[@PC-ni6bp]

If gen 2 hates itself so much, why did they make every match in OU I play take 100 turns? Checkmate Scholar Bop-It

[@amesstarline5482]

44:36 As someone who deliberately chooses Chikorita in any Johto experience, I appreciate not just "trashing it" as easy as it may be.

[@HaydenP96]

This is the perfect crossover of my Pokemon and baseball interests thank you

[@Kragith]

It feel's like that vid has no actual point or a very well defined topic or goal to reach, and I like that. Even if I'm objectively wrong it feeling that way is a breath of fresh air from the usual linier formula every vid follows now. It feels like it has a soul.

[@GuardianArk15]

Gotta respect a man who works with Broganium

[@DeckKnight]

Being an oldster, back in the day you bought these games with a comprehensive guide that went over locations and catch rates, I still have mine. The internet wasn't really a thing then like it is now, it really was a different time. A lot of newer players also really don't appreciate the insane limitations of the hardware at the time. What we take for granted now was truly technologically difficult at the time. Like RBY is a glitchy mess that for all its faults it is amazing that it runs at all and crammed all those different mons, moves, etc. in. Loved your video essay, you earned a subscribe.

[@ShadowMuppetX]

On that note: The "criticism" that Kanto is truncated is especially dumb since that's all due to the limitations of the cartridge. The team worked themselves to the bone just to get Kanto to fit on the cart at *all*. It was a gift to have it there. It was a technical miracle that it was there at all. But the team *had* to make it happen, because it was part of the core experience of the game. Even some of the difficulty curve can even be explained by the fact that Kanto *is* part of that curve--Lance is not the final boss of the game, *Red* is. Having the journey appear to be the same as the first (fighting Team Rocket, beating gyms and the elite four), only to realize that you're not the *true* champion and your real challenge lies elsewhere is a fundamental part of GSC's experience. It kept everything feeling fresh. Later games set the expectation that every game ends when you beat the champ (gen 9 was a lovely break from that). The game was and is a product of its time. No one cared about or even understood the expectations that later games would put on the series. And what it did give us was a sequel that built on (not just iterated off of) the first.

[@sebastiankulche]

Limitations doesnt excuse flaws for being overambitious. If anything they could had released GSC on the N64.

[@rhorantyko7796]

Eh I hear your point, but there are plenty of games that are both nostalgic and still worthwhile to come back to (especially if we're talking about Nintendo), and idk if gen 2 gets into that category on its own merits. I'm definitely one to engage with media in terms of what's there to enjoy vs what's there to hate, but I still think that if you were to ask "is gen 2 good?" and leaned completely into the subjectivity that question entails (accounting for the vastly differing reasons people enjoy games) the overall answer is probably still "no" lol.

[@orcuswells649]

Another excellent analysis that goes far beyond mere retrospective

[@tutyss2191]

22:53 it doesnt even learn ancient power only hidden power (no additional effect) so it's even worse

[@xzeroxman]

Correct, I am not a gen 2 expert and he asked me for my take dry xD I just misremembered the one move it could learn. Both still suck competetively though

[@roymustang87]

@@xzeroxman nope doesn't change the fact you can't get moves right

[@xzeroxman]

@@roymustang87 🤷

[@jpickens189]

Going into full video essay mode with the allegory of the cave got you a subscribe.

[@potterinhe11]

I love Professor boqqer.

[@ThornEternal]

Plato is my favorite poketuber. So insightful

[@blackycat7539]

But most of the lore of Johto... Bellsprout Tower, Slowpoke well, red Gyarados... is about Kanto Pokemon

[@hangyao479]

No other gen game allowed you to access two regions. None of them have a final boss as epic as RED, yourself from the previous game

[@theblasblas]

Or, you know, they could make them both more challenging AND aesthetically distinct.

[@rosesapling72]

Also, could theme gym leaders around a certain color, aesthetic, real world job, whatever and have the pokemon match it for fun :)

[@ryankohler5066]

39:40 “tricks and nonsense is all i have!” (me using perish song, metronome and agility) ✊👊

[@ryankohler5066]

42:42 my brother in agility 🤝