Shaping Sticky Bread Dough | Proof Bread

[@paulawaldrep5286]

Amanda is a true jewel 💖 Love to watch her adjust to the control of Harriet. 🤣🤣🤣🤪

[@davidbriggs8076]

As a home baker of sourdough bread, I am in love with Amanda and John and Proof Bread. I have learnt so much from them, probably because they are passionate about what they do and those folk are the best teachers.

[@amandaabou-eid1873]

Thank you for saying so! We hope you’re still watching the videos and finding value for your baking practice. ❤

[@robertsterner2145]

I love watching the Amanda videos because she's so Zen about the whole thing.

[@amandaabou-eid1873]

It truly is my meditation. There’s poetry in every aspect.

[@danielbaratta885]

I really liked today's video. Great to see how you deal with challenges, as home bakers, we have these problems often. It was fun to watch along.

[@davidhunternyc1]

I don't know one person who thinks baking bread is easy! You guys are magicians.

[@amandaabou-eid1873]

It’s definitely a labor of love.

[@pruplebug]

Perfectly timed video pop up in my feed. Having issues with sticky dough and it not behaving as expected. Your reminder about not having expectations with sourdough is spot on. Thank you.

[@EdgarDoiron]

Man i'm loving all these videos from the new place

[@amandaabou-eid1873]

🥰

[@juliazappone2021]

Jon and Amanda bravo to you! Problem solving helps us newbies learn. Trial and error. You both are calm good teachers. No one can speak to owning a business unless they have. Keep up the diligent work. Blessings to you!

[@christygaffney5814]

I have been following you since you started your channel...from the garage...I also bake sourdough...but it's only been almost a year and a half. I started noticing changes in my dough but couldn't pinpoint the issue...until I finally noticed my fridge wasn't cooling properly. My loaves were growing in the fridge...the had never happened before. so, in order to fix my issue until I could fix my fridge, I under proof the dough just a bit before shaping so that if it grows in the fridge, it doesn't over grow...if that makes sense. My house has also been hotter than normal this summer so I also had to take that into consideration during bulk fermentation. Wishing you much success in your new space! its beautiful!

[@josegomezgil1924]

Don't trust our fridge temperature settings... install an external electronic control from Inkbird ITC-308, adjust your fridge to max temperature and let the Inkbird control the temperature, you will notice the difference, no more over fermented loaves.

[@amandaabou-eid1873]

Gosh. With the >100F days here in the summer, we struggle every year with this. Our current hang up is nailing the proofing on our croissants this summer with new teams and newly split operations (mix in one place, laminate, shape, and proof in another). That’s the exciting thing about what we do though! It’s like surfing the waves of nature.

[@SciPunk215]

I'm loving this learning curve. It's the classic stick and carrot... the stick is the annoyance and anxiety, the carrot is the elusive perfect dough. In a couple of weeks, most of these kinks will be in the rear view mirror. I'm impressed that things are going this well !!

[@rTTT4]

Love these videos where you show the hardships and trials.

[@fotografialilianalamata2699]

Love your trasparent process. You are doing great job. Thank you for shering your experience. Bravo. Saludos desde España 🇪🇸

[@johnhanes5021]

I have done a small amount of sourdough baking so I have a great appreciation of your skill. You are Artisans working at your craft. Excellent. Thank you for explaining the intricacies of your thinking as you encounter new challenges. Amanda has a gifted touch that can only come from love of the craft and great experience working at it. A true artist.

[@amandaabou-eid1873]

So many hours with my hands in the dough. You either make your peace with it or it will make you. Lol

[@ndpitch]

This whole time I’ve been trying to get dough to the consistency you had in your garage. It looked so nice. This is what my dough looks like all the time! It’s very hard to work with haha

[@Druidus98]

I had the same thoughts watching this video 😉

[@suburbanhobbyist2752]

Yep, I usually go wtih 70% hydration (not counting the starter) and my dough is extremely sticky just like this video.

[@walterdebruijn7046]

I really love it that you keep sharing the challenges you are facing. Even with all your experience and top of line equipment, craftsmanship is needed. We all can learn from your stories to upper our craftsmanship. Thank you!

[@mikevanadestine7534]

Baking truly is more art than science. As a hobby baker I doubt I would be able to handle that dough,, frustration would be to great. Love your video's.

[@kentchr76]

You can definitely learn.

[@mikevanadestine7534]

@@kentchr76 probably, just need practice, unfortunately I don't have enough people I can give all my practice loaves to

[@kentchr76]

@@mikevanadestine7534 Lol I know the problem :) .

[@bharvill996]

Totally agree - I throw more bread away than gets eaten. But I enjoy the process so much.

[@amandaabou-eid1873]

@@mikevanadestine7534lol

[@boscobear123]

“You will be disappointed with sourdough” Yes Amanda thank you.Tbh it’s nice to see a pro dealing with sticky issues that’s basically my whole life.

[@boscobear123]

Really though what a great episode. My favorite so far

[@amandaabou-eid1873]

@@boscobear123Glad to hear it! Hopefully you’ve resonated with a few more since then. ❤️

[@seekersofrhythm]

It's fascinating to see and hear your commentary on the way that Harriet is performing in a different way and how you are managing the changes that are inevitable going from the garage where you pretty much have the measure of the environment your baking in. I find this part of the planning and testing prior to the official launch so instructive. stay safe J.

[@domgreco7]

I feel your frustration through the video. My dough is constantly in this state and very challenging. Thank you for your content.

[@wetpaperbag1346]

"Harriet is just reaching her full potential" Amanda ending the video with a good meme

[@amandaabou-eid1873]

💁🏻‍♀️ it’s what I do.

[@sallywright2217]

Here in MO, it is crazy humidity. My Sourdough starter, Naomi, got a little too happy. I would try to make my usual bread dough and the starter would over rise the dough. I would add so much flour to make it hold its form and it became too dense. I had to use the discard as it was and not make a leavening. But you bake on a much larger scale than I do. Just though I would share. Sourdough can be more than a journey it can be an adventure.

[@dishmurphy5754]

You both have such a peaceful energy & positive outlook on everything. I love that you trust yourselves to figure it out or learn from it, or both. Question - are you still creating the bulk of your bread at home while you figure out the new facility, equipment & environment? I’ve only seen 1 other person in the bakery besides you & Amanda. Amanda I think you should think about creating how to videos for new bread bakers. I think you’re an incredible teacher. I already learn so much whenever you talk us thru your work. I pick up even more about dealing with life. Even if the lesson was baking bread, we’d all learn so much more. No slight to Jon. I think you both are gifted, nurturing, smart & crazy hard working. I was attracted to your channel for your philosophy Jon, more than just running the bakery. I’m very grateful that you’re taking the extra time & focus to include us in your new challenges. I hope the girls are well ✌️💚

[@terid6708]

It's good to see you again Amanda. It's been too long. Thank you for going into all the detail about what the dough feels like. I hope not many get stuck here and I sure did. Working on my bakers' percentages? Now I'm using a dryer dough and more watery starter. I get some really nice loaves, sometimes. Working on getting them more often. There are way too many things to adjust and try. Loving the process though and found a few people willing to be my tasters, and accept some not so good loaves. I'm glad you and Jon have been here to help me make much better progress along the way than I could have on my own. Glad you are enjoying such success and please don't take on too much. Are you putting enough away for the future? How much will be enough? You both mean a lot to me.

[@davidj2216]

I’m glad to see it’s not just my sourdough being moody. Amanda is right, a sourdough is a living thing the baker needs to observe, read and adjust to

[@abquiranteschannel7693]

New subscriber and viewer. I'm making bread for my breakfast and snacks, as my practice for my dream to have a bakery shop. Watching your videos giving me more ideas and knowledge. Thank you

[@tgchism]

No doubt a learn curve! Stressful but exciting too I'm sure! Thank you both for allowing us to go along!

[@mariamoroz7776]

Love Amanda!!!

[@justinbouchard]

Here's my actual numbers for my base dough recipe with the calculation for total hydration. This recipe was broken down from a batch of 8 that I had considered to be my final variation. Sharing for community use. There is a formula I have came up with for my spreadsheet, if there's enough interest I can share that as well. Everything is in grams unless shown as a percentage. Flour- 100% 433.1 Ferm- 19.99% 86.6 Water- 64.97% 281.4 Salt- 2.02% 8.75 Ferment = 50% water : 50% flour = 43.3 water 43.3 flour Total Water = 281.4 + 43.3 = 324.7 Total Flour = 433.1 + 43.3 = 476.4 Total Hydration = 324.7 / 476.4 = 68.15% If Ferment = 70% water(60.62) : 30% flour(25.98) Total Water = 281.4 + 60.62 = 342.02 Total Flour = 433.1 + 25.98 = 459.08 Total Hydration = 342.02 / 459.08 = 76% Every 5% increase in hydration to your ferment equals 1.97% increase in total dough hydration based on a 5:1 flour to ferment dough.

[@justinbouchard]

@@RGS61 Yes agree with everything there. Fermenting just breaks things down and makes them more liquid. Looser ferment for sure is going to end up looser even once you figure out when it's at the stage you want to use it at. I would for sure make a test batch of one or two loaves and find the proper hydration level to get the dough feeling how you're used to. At least that's one variable out of the way that won't really change the product with getting away from the extra labor time dealing with such a difficult product.

[@justinbouchard]

@@RGS61 So I make a 40% whole wheat bread as my base dough product. That flour is a low gluten, stone milled locally grown flour here where in live north of lake superior. I can push mine to around 73-75% and still don't mind working with it and the product comes out fairly similar. I also add 2% sugar and 20 grams flax seed per loaf. The sugar and the oils from the flax make the dough more tender. I'm also not looking for large holes in my bread at all. I do baguettes at closer to 80% with this same flour mix and it's workable with skill. Not a fan of spending 5% more of my time shaping and handling dough to gain 5% more product.

[@justinbouchard]

@@RGS61 I would also add that water is cheaper than flour by far, and time is worth more than both. More water = more bread, just not the product I'm trying to make. I literally don't use any dusting flour or water when scaling and shaping my loaves. Other than the dusting of rice flour to protect them in the bannetons or couches. I also find something else that nobody discusses is to not introduce wheat flour while shaping, rolling, or any stage after fermentation is complete and you're at the point of scaling your product. This flour does not get fermented like the rest of the flour in your dough. It ends up just being consumed as cooked, not hydrated flour dispersed on or through itself. Non glutinous rice flour is the only flour I touch after I'm done mixing. Never do I put any raw wheat flour near my fermented lovely dough.

[@sheilam4964]

@@justinbouchard - thanks for sharing your thoughts. My thoughts are along the same as this thread of yours. I say "along the same" since I am not as far into the testing as you are but math is math (percentages) so as far as manipulating a recipe and finding changes, I totally agree, especially with adding raw flour after the ferment/poolish and proofing/ferment (two different things to me). I never did back in the 70s & 80s but since trying the "new" methods, I am finding 'odd' results. Back then I would stir (no mixer) till I couldn't stir in any more flour then turn it out onto my unfloured table (leaving the remaining flour in the bowl) and knead it for 20 min. This was for a 7-8 loaf batch. At first the dough stuck (really stuck) to me and the table but I kneaded it till the dough no longer stuck to the table and the dough that was stuck to my hands came off, by itself, and was incorporated into the dough. Then let it rise till double (about an hour), shaped it and let it rise till double (again, about an hour) then baked it. After the kneading, it no longer stuck any more - no need for added raw flour. It was beautiful to work with. And, man did it rise with a very fine crumb and softness like store bought bread that didn't dry out; just flour, water, yeast, lard and salt. Trying to scale down 26 c flour for 7-8 loaves to the right amount for 1 loaf when not all of that 26 c was incorporated is my biggest issue and I suspect the water source causes issues as well. There is different minerals, etc with different water sources but I really don't know why all of my percentages and techniques don't really produce that same product that I used to get. I even bought a $375 Kichenaid mixer to test whether my kneading technique for 7-8 loaves was too much for a 1 loaf batch. Verdict - no. Anyway, I totally agree with you on the "no added raw flour after the ferment" and I will test the rest of your knowledge to see if that will work for me. Thanks.

[@sheilam4964]

@@RGS61 - yes 26 cups. The other measurements were according to a recipe (a Fleishmann's 2 loaf recipe) that I scaled up. Once I measured the water (don't remember how much it was) and lard (1 cup) into a pot that held everything, I no longer measured the water. This was heated together till the lard was melted and added to the flour which I stirred slightly then added the yeast, sugar and water mixture (in 1 cup of water). After 20 yrs I no longer made my own bread and no longer had the pot so I have no way of knowing how much water I used. Which is basically irrelevant, if you use hydration percentages by weight. If I knew how much water I used I could work backwards and figure out the hydration percentage. What strikes me as unique is that bread remained stretchy and flexible for days instead of turning crumbly the next day like my breads do today. Probably from low hydration nor was it tough, from overworking. Thanks for asking but you may not have asked for all of this info.

[@PhilKoenigBrooklyn]

Sorry you are having so much problems with sticky dough, I've always admired what looks like your beautiful easy to shape stuff but you'll forgive me for being happy to learn it ain't just me. Thanks for the ongoing education.

[@louisjinhui3282]

Hey Palz! I can't compare. I found your channel unique. Never tired of these. ! Gradually, you'll get there the top! You made my day repeatedly! See you again friend!

[@IFlyHeliz]

Looks yummy, wish I lived closer to come try your products.

[@rodneyferris4089]

Harriet needs an intervention! 😂❤️. It sure doesn’t take much to get sticky! I bought a different whole wheat flour last week and my bread yesterday was so sticky and didn’t rise as it usually does! My starter is too happy with this! Heehee!

[@rodneyferris4089]

Be sure to salute Harriet for me! 🙃💨❤️

[@HappyPraise]

I would love to see how those loaves were looking after slicing!

[@vincelieu4425]

Man glad you guys filmed this as I have this soft dough problem all the time and I can't figure out why. I hate it as the dough just wants to fall apart every time I touch it. I usually have this problem often with a general purpose flour but mostly fine with bread flour. Thanks.

[@vaazig]

Love your videos. You're obviously much better bakers than I'll ever be, but I have some thoughts. You're in a new bakery and everything is a learning curve, but have a business that has to continue. I work in fintech and the way we deal with change is to change as few variables as possible to mitigate risk. In your case you don't need the extra headache of a hyperactive starter. Would it make more sense to produce the starter the old way as you get acclimatised? Then gradually produce more at the bakery. This way you'll also know if it is the starter only or if there are more factors at play. Just a thought.

[@amandaabou-eid1873]

Nah. We just like to dive right in. 🤣🤣 Just kidding…kinda.

[@joaoborsari6374]

Hey guys I'm watching you from Brazil and I love your content! I agree pretty much with you that environment conditions interferes a lot on the process hahah it's very hot these days and I'm learning again how to deal with my dough, it's a big challenge but I think it's one of the things I enjoy the most when we talk about preparing sourdough bread haha thanks for sharing your process!

[@paulawaldrep9882]

Wow! Its trial and error time! 🙄 Best wishes to you all and hopefully things come together soon. Love the skills you point out! 🤠 From TX. 😍🍞

[@kausaliimmadood796]

Love the videos you put out, I've learned so much. In this video at the 17:55 point you answered a concern I have about my sourdough sandwich bread, the tops collapsing and separating from the top crust. You said they need to go upside down to prevent his from happening, although it still can happen. The next time I make this bread I'm going to do this since every loaf of this bread I've made collapsed. The question I have is: Do you know why it separates if not set upside down out of the oven (I'm all about understanding why...)? Also how long should they be upside down to reduce the chance for the bread to collapse?

[@Shivnio]

You guys need to cover your power sockets on the bench while working so close to them with flour - they'll clog up quickly otherwise and may short circuit or spark when used (fire hazard). Otherwise great video, so lovely to see you in this wonderful new space and all the best luck to you!

[@gudfaderncc]

Its really interestering what happens with the baking and your bread when moving. Nice to follow!

[@correl_ai]

Sometimes starters have a shift in yeast/lactobacillus rate due to env. change. In artisan baking it breaks timing and bread texture/taste. Reducing existing starter hydration by 10-20% can help. It can take 3-5 days for cultures stabilization.

[@bunhelsingslegacy3549]

"You can't come to the bakery with expectations" ...yeah, in the wine and meadmaking world we have a saying that "The yeast didn't read the label", when your packet of yeast that was supposed to die out at 12% alcohol takes your batch all the way to 16% rocket fuel... Also as a home sourdough baker, if one thing changes, you might have to adjust other things, I'm normally geared to making 50/50 white/whole wheat loaves at 80% hydration because that's what it seemed to work best at, then I got a different kind of whole wheat flour and got to the end of the bag of it after a whole lot of wonky flaccid loaves and finally remembered that I probably needed to adjust for the different flour!! Then I ran out of the whole wheat, made a 100% white batch at 70% and it was the best pizza dough I've EVER made. Live and learn!!

[@basilabedallah5797]

Love your work,,,, keep on keeping on!

[@dfhepner]

Do you think that the starter had changed its culture because it is in a new environment? Do you have a lab that you could send samples to and see what the makeup is?

[@dfhepner]

@Lil' Black Duk that makes no since. A lab should be able to identify what the culture make up is.

[@dfhepner]

@Lil' Black Duk NCSU has a lab that can tell what makes up a culture. They have studied cultures from all over the world. Look up the wild sourdough project

[@derDKP]

Those front windows are pretty good. Can't hear the street noose at all!

[@StarCitizenJorunn]

What a great episode, I love how ya'll share these moments =)

[@susanlindahl3848]

Very interesting ! That's how home baking goes... always tweaking especially due to humidity.

[@science2726]

One of the hardest things about bread, is that its made over the coarse of days. You can have these days where you just have to keep going and do the best you can knowing things aren't right.

[@HowToCuisine]

This just makes me want to have bread! 😍

[@DK-ed7be]

Kind of stands to reason that if you increase the hydration of the starter the total hydration will go up unless accounted for.

[@nerdcave0]

If Harriet is super charged, does that mean the resulting breads are more sour tasting? Does the high hydration also affect scoring?

[@TonyAponte95]

New subscriber here... What do you mean when you say the loaves need to be flipped upside down or they'll collapse? What causes the bread to collapse right side up and how does flipping them prevent this? Thank you for putting this content out in the world.

[@monseneur00economist]

Anyway you can get more of that white bucket in the shots? I don’t think it blocked near enough of the technique

[@sharonmohr1]

How do you make your dusting Mix?

[@hopecox]

Hey guys, I'm curious what your interview process is like when looking for bakers? It seems like it would be really hard to find someone who was adaptive and observant and didn't go on autopilot when doing repetitive tasks. How do you determine their capabilities and skills during the interview process? Do you put them through a kind of trial period of training before onboarding?

[@quantum-entanglementinmagn6728]

Good ferment! awesome amount of bread rise. Do not stop it, this is part of the process of moving and adapting to hariot. Be aware if you dial down on Hariot it might be not linear in function. What you might think is les might be even more, and what you think is more might be less. BE CAREFUL! Lazaro

[@envt]

Love your videos and progress... fantastic videos. Just wondering.. don't you get stress from the cars driving by al the time? It seems like your old garage was more "relaxing". A simple fix would be darker glass on the inside.

[@SteveEisenberg8004]

How to get in touch with the bakery to make a purchase?

[@NothingMaster]

Harriet is such a temperamental babe. She’s not an easy date for the flours. 😀

[@amandaabou-eid1873]

Just like me. 😂

[@NothingMaster]

@@amandaabou-eid1873 Exactly 😂🥰😍

[@Blablablateelbal]

Reducing the starter percentage and maybe reduce a tiny bit more water to compensate for the higher hydration starter seems like a good place to start! Or maybe just the temperature. I guess we'll know soon :)

[@puretoronto]

Should have left the sandwich loaves together until they cooled... separating them was the same as cutting open a loaf straight out of the oven.

[@splanzza]

I see new oven gloves! Remembered when back in a day you mention “looking for gloves that can last” vs falling apart. I did try the same ones you got (with red) but was not happy with dexterity. I felt like a robo-cop. Was performing much more finger-demanding task then you duh. I hope they work for you. Bakery looks like a space ship! Congrats and all the best! 👽

[@ArchLinuxTux]

Can u autolse with less H2o and add the the water back with Harriet' 2.0

[@thomasgronek6469]

If I give starter to someone, can they rename it if it already has been named ?

[@satanilio]

Jonny do you have a delivery over to Russia please? )))

[@japanadventurelife]

to prevent the sandwich loaf from collapsing is to divide them into 3 portions instead of one big dough.

[@edwardfknight]

Is the Rice Flour that you are rolling your dough in 100% Rice Flour or a mixture of rice and wheat? If it is a mixture what is the ratio?

[@helenjohnson7583]

I want the exploding sandwich loaves!!

[@vincenb7540]

Do you guys check the pH of your starter ? And dough? For me it makes a difference. I can shape easily my dough at pH 4.4 or 4.5 but if I let it get more acidic like pH 4.2 its a real sticky mess.

[@philw4625]

I can imagine how stressful this can be! Rethinking all your recipes and timelines, and worrying about customer expectation. Im sure you'll figure it out though. Good luck.

[@lbamusic]

What is oven temp for baguettes and what is temp for artisan loafs? Also oven temp for sandwich loaves?

[@cloudburstsinmycoffeecup5648]

I’ve been baking sourdough for about 30 years…my dough is very wet. I use olive oil when I form loaves.

[@cofoothills]

luckily you all have the experience from the previous bakery to get mastery of your procedures, now you're just tweaking things due to the new equipment and workspaces

[@willgriff]

Awesome, only never been this early before, only posted 3 minutes ago

[@nikolaskallianiotis8622]

Higher hydration is difficult to handle but if you make it then you get these results. It's not only Harriet happier with her new home, it's also the additional water in your formulas that creates these huge loafs. Water also expands along with fermentation gases during baking and creates even more oven spring. In addition, more water means more elasticity. All these together and you get these wonderful breads.

[@charlesbruggmann7909]

How long before someone makes a movie about a bakery that gets attacked by… an ‘overly happy’ sourdough starter? What should the starter be called? Will the monster sourdough take over the world? Will it bankrupt all industrial, short fermentation, bakery factories?

[@EdgarDoiron]

From the creators of Sharknado, we bring you Sournadough

[@charlesbruggmann7909]

@@EdgarDoiron The Dough from Outer Fermentation? The

[@gatn71]

Sourdough called Audrey 2 . Feed me moreeee...

[@suburbanhobbyist2752]

This is exactly what my dough looks like. I use bread flour, 70% hydration and my starter is 100% hydration, so I guess that would make the final dough around 80%. Lately it has been super, super sticky which is beyond annoying. I try to get a good final shaping but it inevitably sticks to my fingers, the scraper, the counter etc and then flattens out a bit too much. I don't want to reduce my hydration but my 70% looks much wetter than other people's 70%.

[@terid6708]

So glad to hear others are so worried about going down in hydration also. I've finally decided I try to go for the dough tension Amanda spoke about in her last video since I wasn't having any success with 70% hydration. That required me to go down further in hydration and refrigerate the dough for a few hours before the final shaping (who would have guessed?). I get good loaves today, sometimes. Working on getting them more often.

[@Kivas_Fajo]

Where did you guys learn to bake bread? Where I am at we call it simply bread, not artisan whatnot. By now you might have guessed I am from bread country number 1.

[@thedrawingmuffins]

I wonder if any engineers can help with their sourdough starter. :(

[@satanilio]

why no people buy the bread in the bakery ?

[@cobyteune]

Hi! What do you think? IMPROOF

[@pinnysun8442]

Thats a nightmare all i can see you are being control by the new equipment you bought. Changes is good but it has to be in a good way, at least in control of the thing you bought, i would have return that fermentation machine and request them to send me something thats work the way it "should". keep up guys

[@notrob4376]

1-5-5?

[@TheBubagrunt]

Is Harriet a continuation of an original culture? How old is she? Inquiring minds want to know 😀

[@sminstudios]

11 years old I think?

[@cachi-7878]

I wish my starter were overly happy…

[@mduvigneaud]

80% hydration is too much for me with the sourdough starter I have and also commercial baker's yeast. Way too sticky. 75% is pushing it. I mostly do 65% to 70%, depending on what I'm making. I'm not at all a pro baker.

[@nathana3170]

Go back to making Harriet in buckets. Too many variables in the transition is creating more work and less consistency. You should be getting used to working in the new space, not stressing about your starter. Save the trial and error for another time.

[@husamdenver1880]

أماندا طلعت ماهي سلهة 😂

[@stevedavidson8802]

Very hard vidio to watch either your nerves or you don’t like what your doing why don’t you just make bread be simple to much talking

[@fum00A]

You are so condescending of Amanda. It is not becoming.

[@vaazig]

How? I missed that. I remember him saying that only the best could work that dough, and that was Amanda.

[@fum00A]

@@vaazig You got it.

[@vaazig]

@@fum00A that's condescending? Did you get the word the wrong way around?