Propane Generator Will Not Start - Feels Like Low Compression

[@johnbourgeois1414]

I was watching this video and I noticed when you opened the valve on the propane tank you opened it all the way then turned it back clockwise a little and that can be a huge mistake, those valves are a double seated valve and if not opened tight can leak around the stem when a valve gets worn. I spent 20 years in the propane business dealing with millions of gallons every year so I know most everything that can go wrong of course not everything so I try when possible to help people divert dangerous situations. I enjoyed the video, God Bless and stay safe

[@jcondon1]

Good to know. Someone told me once you never want to open it all the way. Never questioned that advice.

[@tomtee4442]

I'm not real sure about your comment. Is it okay to turn a propane tank valve one turn on without causing damage?

[@johnbourgeois1414]

@@tomtee4442 If valve is perfect that might be ok but they are double seated and designed to either be closed tight or open tight so if your not opening it tight you should check for leaks which is actually recommended but in my 20 years in the propane business working with many thousands of valves probably less than 100 leaked when open tight so I guess if you would rather take a chance rather than take the time and effort to open them all the way that’s up to everyone. Good Luck and God Bless!

[@douglaswindsor120]

I wondered about this year's ago my aunt gave me a 30 pound aluminum propane tank my uncle had taken it off his camper because it leaked around the stem it was full so I wanted to use the fuel in it and I found it didn't leak when opened up all the way way tightly open now I know why

[@scottschenk5456]

Agreed. Full open or full closed!

[@desmondtaylor5778]

You are the first person to flooded a propane generator

[@sgtJOOSEcapeS]

👋 y'all just know that having discipline, attention to details and patience will go along way ... James you're a good example of that🙋🏾‍♂️

[@JRattheranch]

Did you notice James the the engine only fired up as you released the ignition switch, which made me believe that the switch itself might be faulty? Look at that little portion of the video to see what I mean! 👏👏

[@objection_your_honor]

I would buy a used generator from you anytime. An outstanding repair as usual. 👍

[@jimanddiana4103]

ditto

[@iandennis7836]

So would I.....if I lived in new England......alas, I reside in old Blight, 3000 miles away. 😢

[@chrisssmallengines7163]

The melted pieces that you found in the head might be from the push rod guide , some of them have plastic on the inside of the hole for the push rod . This probably means this engine got hot at one point . Great video as usual .

[@jcondon1]

That is a good point. I had meant to mention that the style guide I pulled out usually has plastic around the cut outs.

[@cjbowes998]

Makes sense to me, leaves in blower housing, valve cover gasket stuck to head, push rod guides melted, all adds up to a severe case of overheating.

[@craigdalzell2908]

i was about to say same thing . believe around the square holes they had plastic inserts on some engines

[@craigdalzell2908]

He does great videos , really coulda been a shop teacher

[@Bulletman426]

That is exactly what it was! 👍

[@Marauder92V]

James - your videos are very therapeutic for us shade tree hacks. Your methodical approach is easy to follow and helps us wannabes at least attempt some of our own self repairs.

[@lv_woodturner3899]

Considering only the push rod guide needed to be replaced, this simple fix fought you all the way to get this running consistently. The Predator guide design is much better than the original. Glad to see another machine saved from the scrapyard. Well done.

[@douro20]

I guess the Rato engines are a bit closer to Honda engines than the Jiangdong ones. The 302CC Predator is a Loncin V-valve engine which was designed with input from Cummins Power Generation and which is among the best Chinese engines. It probably also helps that Loncin is a motorcycle builder and has done work for BMW.

[@petes8849]

Excellent video. One suggestion tho. Clean the rust off the flywheel magnet before setting the gap. With the gap that wide before, the rust would act as shim when making the adjustment.

[@alancombi6742]

Totally agree about cleaning the rust off the flywheel. I had a Moped many years ago that had not been used for a while when I got it the spark was poor. I cleaned the laminations up on the transformer and flywheel and that sorted it. You obviously know what you are doing on these machines and it's great that everyone rips off the Honda engine. That makes it easy to carry spare parts. Obviously probably not good for Honda unless they get a kick back.

[@garyfishburn403]

Amen

[@allotmentfornovices8256]

So good to see a genuine very nice guy educating so many people in this way well done again my friend great work as always

[@leandrolaporta2196]

excellent video!, it surprised me that it can almost handle 6000W with propane, usually propane the most power you can get is 5000 if you are lucky, at least with the pressure that is used here. btw the other day a friend of mine call me, it's genny wasn't working right, i said: bring it over i talke a look, i fix it in 30 minutes like a pro, 2 years ago i had no idea how to adjust valves, deal with timming issues, clean carbureators, now i can do it, i still cannot believe it!, i learn everything in your videos!, thank you!.

[@AntonioClaudioMichael]

Very nice to see the engine runs after the valves were fixed and jt makes power i like these episodes dont see propane generators much @James Condon

[@larrykelly2838]

Doc., another successful operation. This patient had several problems.

[@jme36053]

Impeccable diagnostics. Thanks for bringing us along. A project is rarely completed without a little touch-up painting.

[@tonywall8991]

I'm still not happy with the starting issue. It still doesn't start easy enough for my liking. That said, you definitely know your stuff, and are an excellent mechanic. I really enjoy watching you work, and am learning a lot from you. Keep up the good work.

[@YukonHawk1]

I have watched so many of your videos that 8 of 10 times I can tell when an engine is running fast. Another great fix. 👍

[@mikesbarn1858]

Just a suggestion. I use a piece of plate glass to check if push rods are true. I also use it with 1000 grit sand paper to face heads if I remove one.

[@markmoran9716]

Thanks for the new video. Because it ran once, it was confusing that it wouldn't start. This was a good example of troubleshooting.

[@justinvanaulen2478]

Great video Jim. I've seen the rod guides fail on LiFan engines before, even as brand new. Oddball items like random coil failures, recoil failure and inaccurate tolerance / low quality material issues often affect these Chinese made clone engines, especially if they are neglected. No issue if purchasing used at a very inexpensive price, but I wouldn’t recommend buying anything new that’s equipped with one of these and expect it to be long term reliable.

[@jamesws3]

Indeed. Which is why I go with Honda on anything which matters.

[@bertgrau3934]

@@jamesws3 I seen where Honda is having some engines made in China.

[@Jpilgrim30]

Everyone’s having things made in China these days. I’ve had a predator generator for several years that has served me well and is still going strong. Some things made in China can be well made. Just depends on the cost it’s being built to per manufacturer demand.

[@bluemoondiadochi]

I just want to give a shoutout to a guy who loves generators, and who also knows to make very engaging, interesting and educational 1h+ long videos. I love generators because they're so underappreciated; they're not flashy. they're not a status symbol. they're that quiet unassuming machine that got your back when needed. that's what I love about them.

[@coreybabcock2023]

Thanks to your videos I've learned how to do valves and everything else I got a 300.00 used 800 hrs on it wen 3800 inverter generator running better than ever I'll be making a video on it's status soon enough

[@garyalensr]

You sir have an amazing amount of patience, also your skill to fix things is Absolutely awesome. I have learned so much from you because of your clear way of diagnosing issues. I want to thank you for that James. Keep up the awesome work and God bless you good Sir.

[@blakefindlay1870]

It's crazy how often engine related issues don't require new parts but just adjusting or cleaning. More often than not compression related issues seem to be valves need cleaning and adjusting due to not seating properly or in this case the push rod guide completely worn out. Great preventative maintenance, like you said it could've resulted in the destruction of the engine if that guide got any worse

[@watermanone7567]

Excellent video: I have also seen a check valve in the propane tank not letting enough fuel supply to the engine. Took me a long time to figure out what was going on with it. Thanks for another great video.

[@pootthatbak2578]

Re: check valve.. my propane guy showed me how to unstick that valve. Just pick up the tank about 6 inches and drop it on concrete or a sound rock. I got a fill up, took it home and the tank wouldnt work. I went back to the propane station and the nice man showed me the problem

[@clintr485]

When you noticed the oil leak at the valve cover and began loosening the hold down bolt the bottom of the gasket pulled back into the cover. Definitely was not seated on the head correct. Also I agree with others that what you pulled out was melted plastic from the pushrod guide plate. Awesome job as usual. 👍👍👍

[@jcondon1]

That did not occur to me at the time. Definitely was the melted plastic.

[@brewster3987]

6:23 "This should be an easy fix..." Me, looking at the video length - Wow, our man James has eternal optimism, doesn't he? 😁😆😅🤣

[@bertgrau3934]

That was interesting, a pretty simple fix. I had a Murry mower that seemed like it was very low on power, I adjusted the valves, it made a big difference in power, felt like it never ran that good, about 30 minutes later it started smoking really bad. Then I noticed it was blowing oil all over. Took the engine apart, the top compression ring was broke in 2 places. And the piston was sloppy in the cylinder.

[@cwradio4571]

One thing I like about your videos is, that you show the diagnosis’. Other just figure it out an do the job. This is much more interesting because I am diagnosing as you go.

[@markhilton1360]

I have been running a 10K All Power and had hard start issues. I will have to check the coil gap. Had problems with gas regulator freezing up in moist conditions until there is enough engine heat. Thanks for posting.

[@MrTonyPiscatelle]

I've been enjoying your videos. You really know your way around this equipment, and you are quite good at narrating yourself . Keep up the great content.

[@miket7917]

Thanks, I always enjoy watching your repairs. I wonder if ever considered including a decibel reading to let people know how loud each generator is. Thank you James for enjoyable and informative podcasts .

[@shawnmrfixitlee6478]

I have a Allpower generator That we ran for 4 straight days in an outage , ran great but not the fuel economy of a Honda or Yamaha .. Good fix James ! ENJOYED

[@jcondon1]

Thanks Shawn

[@hobtink]

Never had an LPG engine so your comment about a smaller gap was definitely beneficial to me.

[@hobtink]

Smaller spark plug gap. Had never heard that before. While a lot of your videos, are often nothing new though some are they are all sound practical advice and re-enforcing on troubleshooting small engines, pretty much all gas engines large and small I find them all very good especially the generator problems. But you can’t make electricity from a gas engine if it doesn’t run. Are carbs and/or the LPG regulator to carb input on LPG engines subject to any problems

[@joepace33]

Hi James. You're one cool dude. Never gets flustered, never loses your cool, never give up...... I consider myself a calm guy, but there have been instances when I could see myself kicking a generator you were working on. And your attention to detail is commendable. I would buy one of your generators sight unseen in a heartbeat!!

[@regchapman3683]

Hi James thank you for all the work you Put in for us ,, I am a Newbie to your channel from Northern Ireland . Just on the point of propane powered engines .I. Used to run my cars on propane ,it is my experience they are harder to start.

[@JefferyAshmore]

I ran a propane truck that ran on propane and you are right about starting harder, I winter had to use block heater.

[@Texas4x]

I have learned so much from watching you and am now able to recognize so many issues before you mention what it is. Thanks so much!

[@SHOINOFF]

Semi flat black looks good as well. Also i liked how the handles were hidden.

[@lpconserv6074]

Very recent subscriber here. Content is first rate, and your attention to detail is well ahead of what anyone in the consumer side of things will expect. Going through your new as well as older videos. Learning a significant number of things. I am American, but retired and living the last 4 years in my new home in the Philippines. Power outages are common here at least weekly, sometimes multiple times per day when things are bad weather wise. I bought and installed an 8000W generator diesel powered, even before the roof was fully on and we had not even closed up all the windows... I have had maintenance on mine, and your content, as you say on every video, "I hope this helps someone out" is not in vain or lost on me here. I now feel much more confident with my own system. MANY things I have learned, too many to mention here. But MANY thanks, as I am quite weak on the electrical side of this machine...

[@jcondon1]

Good to hear. Thanks for the feedback.

[@brandonnolff1920]

Loved this! I work in propane combustion. Great diagnosis. Suggestion tho- anytime you turn off a propane generator, close the propane tank to get all the propane out of the line. Sometimes a backfire will occur if not. Love watching your videos!!

[@duanek9892]

Loved the investigation and resolution of the coil/spark problem.

[@butler386]

Wow that non starting generator sure had me stumped. I figured it was a coil that was malfunctioning. But you figured it out and it sounds good for now. Great job once again. Thanks for all the videos.

[@chuckprovenzano4957]

I have this same generator. I purchased it in 2011 just after the Northeast experienced a snow storm around Halloween. We were without power for more than a week with that one. In late September 2020 it failed in the middle of another power outage (just under 2 days). It is the reason I subscribe to this channel. The cause for the failure was the coil. I had just 23 hours on the clock when it happened. Thanks for all the troubleshooting help.

[@jcondon1]

Interesting. That for the info.

[@SuperResa14]

Purchased this kzbin.infoUgkxOTeIs0vv4_9B5hsmnLsk9r930uDQLu_Y after researching several brands.Reasons for picking this one was, dual fuel, I don't have to carry gasoline and stink up my truck bed!Propane is so much cleaner.Quiet 62 db, won't piss off neighboring campers!Less than 100 lbs, can lift in to truck bed.I can run my 30 foot Transcend 261BH, AC among other appliances.

[@timmyhipbird7543]

don't know about cheaper maybe more convenient. but you get more power out of gasoline.

[@stiggywatts4258]

Thanks James. Your videos are brilliant and a fantastic source to help us better understand our own generators 😃

[@dawn1berlitz]

this kinda inspires me to try and locate a generator that has some issues to tyr and get going on my spare time and to have one ready incase of a power failure

[@jeffbotkin1405]

You have to open the valve on a propane tank completely and make sure it’s opened tightly in the counterclockwise direction. It seals in both directions. Your propane will leak out around the valve stem if you leave it to loose. It’s not safe to leave it loose. Ask me how I know. Great video as usual

[@davidtyndall8880]

I have the 7000 watt version. I got fooled when I bought mine, advertised as 10,000 watt but found out that was "max surge load" rating. The full load rating is 7,000 watts. I am using mine as a home stand-by generator, a few years ago it had to run for 4 days pulling a refrigerator, upright freezer and well pump plus a few lights, no problems. I will be checking the push rod guide plate on mine. 5.25.2023

[@George-mn4wf]

Hi James, I am a recent subscriber, and I continue to enjoy your videos thoroughly! I know that you comment from time to time on matters of shop safety such as keeping CO levels down. I was interested to know what type of gloves you use. I know that my hands get scraped up etc. There are some chemical hazards too I need to avoid with work like this. I would enjoy more on your shop setup and the type of tools you use and general shop safety. Keep going! You are the first to capture my wife's interest on repair matters. Sometimes I ask her if she remembers something from your videos and she does! She and I both admire your calm methodical approach. Best to you and your family.

[@harveypaxton1232]

Another great video. With Propane or Natural Gas engines with spark issues, I always replace the spark plug. I noticed in the video when you jumpered the electrode to ground, the spark was coming from the porcelain insulator.

[@billhenry7833]

Great eye! I missed that and had to go back and check.

[@lilgampla]

Go to your local trade school see if they can make a slightly thicker plate on cnc it gives the students a bit of experience

[@YukonHawk1]

Great suggestion.

[@cherylm2C6671]

I'm not even a quarter of the way through and I like this. I had better not enjoy it too much since it's just a video, but the way you are presenting your work through the problems is really encouraging me to try this myself- and stick to it! Thank you for sharing your work!

[@mrpetit2]

I like these videos better than the product reviews. I'm here for the diagnose process and fixing of small engines, I don't need a new generator (I live in western europe where the power never goes out)

[@travishall67]

Ah... right at the end you said you weren't sure how the coil/flywheel gap got out of whack. I was going to ask you how it was running earlier with that huge gap in place. I'll read through the comments to see if anyone else has an idea of how that happened. Great video, thanks for sharing!

[@DoyleShadduck]

One man’s trash is another man’s treasure. Nice job on the filming!

[@stephenbridges2791]

I worked for a large school district back in the early 80's that had about 4 buses out of a fleet of around 325 that were propane powered. To say they were temperamental would be a gross understatement. Although not the case here, I was never a big fan of propane as a substitute fuel. They would end up with some off the wall problem most often way out in the boondocks.

[@hobtink]

Before the EPA stepped in anyone could buy and install a propane conversion kit on their automobile. Engine oil stayed far cleaner far longer and generally less engine wear. Then it got to wear commercial LPG companies could not sell, install, service or fill customers auto LOG tanks. Engines that ran cleaner, polluted less Al because the engines emission systems were not geared to LPG. IM TALKING ABOUT large GM V8’s if the 60’s, 70’s, & 80’s that had minimal to no smog related items outside of the smog pumps of the 60’s and the catalytic converters. And they polluted far less in LPG than gasoline. Yep, that’s our government for you.

[@pg41226]

Recently started watching your videos. Only watched the little Honda generators so far… this one is a bit easier to get access to 😂

[@rogerhansen1314]

good job, just goes to show you what persistance and profesionlism your the best!

[@coreybabcock2023]

Currently parked under a huge shade tree got my wen 3800 generator going and ac going watching this here in the van in Chantilly VA I love being out of my apartment

[@mjg263]

Strange about that coil gap, wonder if it was like that from day one. Another great save!

[@jcondon1]

It may have been. The coil did not look new.

[@mrobi5797]

Good video James. I would have probably work around the decals when it came times to paint the rusted area. I would have placed some painting tape in a curve way to match the design, after removing the rust, and painted that area white to merge with the green/white decals. The decals makes the generator look good. It would have take less paint too, but it just me. At the end you did a great jod fixing it. Thanks for the continuous training you provide. It is much appreciated.

[@jonwenger3584]

Not just you. I was very disappointed in the resultant black finish.

[@JoshuaJonah]

Gotta love the 'ole used car salesman Tremclad job haha. You really need a sandblasting cabinet James. I do the same thing to ATVs all day. One of my most important tools is a zinc and nickel plating rig. Fresh factory hardware really makes a big impression.

[@jcondon1]

Need more tools and more space

[@daleyurk4369]

Love this video. You might want to try a rust converter on some of those spots in the future. It turns the rust into a black surface that can be painted. Really look forward to your videos James. Nice job.

[@r8118830]

Rust converter is very good for smaller patches.

[@philliphall5198]

My sister in law taught me this a couple of days ago. It works

[@tomthumb-dv9uv]

The plastic you dug out of the head is the nylon around the holes in the pushrod guide. Merry Christmas Jim!

[@jcondon1]

I agree. Usually that type of valve guide plate has nylon around the holes. Thought is was strange that this one did not. Did not even recognize it as plastic at the time.

[@AntonioClaudioMichael]

Looks like the nuts for the intake were stuck because the rocker dropped and got wedged @James Condon

[@wildefox1478]

At least it was an easy fix with this one, just a bad push rod guide, nice work James!

[@cliffpersaud1]

I suggest you check for a faulty plug wire as well... cause you changed it's orientation a few times which could lead to an unreliable spark... Love yur videos 👍

[@zrkn1]

Considering it's a propane only generator, it has the power to hold its own. I was very surprised it held at 6000 watts, though I would never load it that high for long just as you mentioned. Nice pic up and resale item. I wonder how dirty the wave would be on that one.

[@PabloDiablo682]

Nice job James. Thats funny. I thought the green and black pull start looked better than all green myself. It's all just psychological but cleaning it up adds almost as much value to the generator as fixing it.

[@DeadKoby]

It's cool that you are able to start with what is essentially a basket case, and not end up throwing wrenches in a fury. I hath not the patience for that sometimes.

[@ghettsumm7949]

I will never understand why China would go thru all the trouble to clone a machine, and then cheap out on a 5 dollar part? Essentially, ruining their reputation. Thanks for showing us this video.

[@YukonHawk1]

As the saying goes.....crap parts make for crappy machines.

[@r8118830]

All of the parts are cheaper and lower quality than those from a more expensive well built machine. James has compared a present day Chinese clone engine to engines built 30 years ago and the difference is striking. Chinese clones do not really have a reputation to save.

[@davyarthurs]

Buy cheap, buy twice

[@kerrygleeson4409]

Another great video James thanks for sharing your knowledge 🦘👍

[@RustyNail5856]

That was a good one to keep you on your toes. but you fix it and it looks great, and run's great as well.

[@allpowercorp]

A James Condon 1 hour video dropped! Time for popcorn! 🍿

[@jcondon1]

It is one of yours. Need some green paint and a sticker to make it perfect again.

[@TK4619]

I have seen that before, Thankfully the plates are widely available.

[@JamesDeese]

Learned so much in this troubleshooting process.

[@GeevyLic]

Hi James I watch you alot I saw a mouse jump out of that generator at 27.19 minutes pretty funny, he must have been in there while you were working on it. Thank You for your videos!

[@var4248]

Saw the same! Wasn't sure if anyone else saw it too. lol

[@julianlecircle815]

Treat yourself to one of those liftting tables so you are not on your knees!! Most enjoyable video.

[@er1073]

Another very much informative video James thank you. Who would of thought a .30 gap would work? Thanks James great video. Ed

[@PaulCyclist]

I race engines the cap on the valve stem are called “lash caps”. They are used to protect the valve stem from ware. They are hardened steel. Perhaps on small engines like you have the do promote needed valve rotation but I’m not sure how. Anyway, just a quick share.

[@johnbolongo9978]

Another great video ...I've learned more from James class than I did in high school auto.

[@Jonas_Aa]

A good tip on propane tanks is that you only open the valve like a half a turn so if something goes sideways you might have time to close it. Even a quarter turn will be good on a gas barbecue, but I do not know how much the generator needs in terms of flow.

[@tunercars3]

that thing is junk it takes way to long to start and the coil still needs replaced glad you somewhat fixed it and showed us

[@deangentles4966]

Hi James I always enjoy sitting in your class mate I have no experience on working on gas generators but nice to see you dealing with the problems so efficiently Thank you for sharing James

[@jcondon1]

Thanks Dean. I bet you could fix one now after watching all my videos.

[@deangentles4966]

@@jcondon1 Hi James watching you work does get addictive I find myself talking to the screen trying to find the problem as you are working Sometimes I get it right too I enjoy your classes as you are a good teacher

[@vmaxride06]

Enjoyed this video professor , watching you trouble shoot is almost therapeutic :)

[@CARLOSTREUIL]

Nice paint job. Down south that would be called a Craigs List tune up. The flat black top covers are a definite improvement over the pea green original color. Nice job. I enjoy your channel.

[@jankamp8177]

James, im from the Netherlands and here ther are a lot of cars driving a car with PropaneThe only problem with that feul isthat it used more than gas, And if ther is a problem you need a real craftsman...All the best from Jan who lives into the Netherlands.

[@fisshayemezgebu8858]

It is a Great job.That you testing-the problem stap by stap with-a knowledg.

[@AntonioClaudioMichael]

Aww so coil wasn't bad just insufficient spark because of gap good to see it consistently starts now

[@andrewgrace4410]

Nice clean up and troubleshooting James😊

[@RC-fu6hg]

Wow a propane unit. Nice find! That video was awesome. Thanks.

[@RiverratGoRVing]

Nice jod. Can you next time get into some of the working of the propane gas system. Where to check for failure and possibly rebuild. Tks, Michael.

[@jcondon1]

Was hoping this one was a regulator issue. I did take a regulator apart in this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/fqmxc3ZrhN9gZq8

[@ericvaughn1126]

Great content as usual and it's crazy that thing ran at all as massive as that coil gap was. Odd it was so intermittent. Was hoping for some fresh Kawasaki green on those panels, but can't go wrong with flat black. Someone will surely be glad to have it and not have to mess with gasoline when using it too. 👍👍

[@jcondon1]

In this case I think green would have been better. Not too late to change it.

[@mz10713]

Always educational, I liked the green better,

[@jcondon1]

Me too

[@paulravitsky2898]

Lawn Boy green might have been a close match to that paint. I use stainless hardware for battery connections. It doesn't rust/corrode like steel or brass. Makes it easy to remove the battery leads when needed. Nice job!

[@freedomdog77]

Valve lash making that much difference in compression was a surprise

[@ron827]

Good job as usual and I too discovered that an old milk crate is ideal for transporting 20 lb. LP cylinders.

[@jcondon1]

Its like it was made for that purpose.

[@ron827]

@@jcondon1 10-4

[@tommytwoshoes]

Excellent video - the content and isnructions with all the required detail are the kind of quality someone requires to actually troubleshoot and ultimately fix something like this. I like that you had failure through the video but were able to troubleshoot further and actually get to additional issues. Some of the check list items were unsuccessful and others were very key to resolution. thats how leaning works. you tell that you did this video to help people not highlite your knowledge which is impressive details you share. quality video. I will subcribe as this is the level of instruction and detail one needs to be able to work through an issue like you just did. thank you

[@nicholas790]

Great troubleshooting! But I would have gone with that glossy Fluorescent green! It looked much better IMO.

[@gregorypiercesr.2769]

Great save!🤘🤘 It's nice to have a different challenge to keep the videos fresh!😎😎

[@waynec3121]

great save on this generator

[@johncourtneidge]

Thank-you! What a great way for me to spend an evening!