Pros (and some cons) of Dyneema for Sailboat Standing Rigging

Talking pros and some cons of using dyneema dux for standing rigging on a sailboat.
The Tula Shop - tulasendlesssummer.com/shop-tula/
Kraken Structures - bit.ly/KrakenStructures
Colligo Marine - bit.ly/colligomarine

[@mikeanderson1330]

Billy, stumbled on to your channel when you had Neverland. Thought, "rich kids with dad's credit card." It was right around when you were doing an oil change on Neverland. I was like, wait a minute this guy knows what he is doing and not afraid to get dirty. Happy to see you take on the extra work to share your expertise by creating "Tech Talk." Love how you and Sierra work together to solve problems and constantly move forward having fun along the way.

[@Tulasendlesssummer]

hahah I think there's a ton of people with that first reaction which, as you now know, couldn't be further from the truth, I wish everyone knew our full story. I'm glad you appreciate this new channel. I found that when editing the videos for the other channel there was just so much technical information that I was leaving out or editing out to keep it moving along and entertaining for the people who aren't fully interested in the tech stuff.

[@SteelDoesMyWill]

Speaking of the DIY aspect of Dyneema Rigging, my goal in the future is to offer on-line classes for the splicing portion, kind of like with the Master Class format. While it isn't Rocket Science, there are a bunch of small details that need to be understood to getting the shroud lengths correct and especially integrating a full cover onto the rope as you splice. I think many sailors can easily handle the locking Brummel Splice, its the cover and the sewing and the trim finishing that really throws people off. The info out there on the web and in the forums tells me that people have learned by trial and error... this can be expensive with Dyneema! Some sailor who didn't anticipate the amount of construction stretch they would get from the splices mistook that for creep because they didn't pre-strecth the lines prior to tensioning. So many things can go wrong, but as Billy shows in his videos its actually not hard to do it right the first time (with a little guidance, LOL). Nice job Billy, thanks for your positive comments!

[@MrTravisDeeth]

I would be very interested in an online course in dyneema rigging!

[@TulasTechTalk]

I think an online course in this or even live webinars would be super useful for people!

[@RiggingDoctor]

@@MrTravisDeeth I have a bunch of videos about synthetic standing rigging in this playlist: kzbin.info/aero/PLlDgR504BxwkRCRYkq3VPsn8f6zZVnb1D I'm working on a series of videos on how to make a new synthetic stay from start to finish!

[@MrRourk]

Billy and Sierra you both are boating saints for creating this channel :)

[@chenegabfree7617]

Great information... I look forward to more on Tula’s Tech Talk (TTT). Great honest information. Cheers, SV Chenega Hamburg Cove, Ct

[@carleenh4946]

We love our dyneema shrouds on our 22' trailer tri as it really keeps the boat light and racy, easy to tension with the lashings, light for towing, etc. We've done over 18 knots on her during a race and she felt well-balanced even while screaming across some rare flat water in Toronto! (she's a Farrier design that we built). I remember meeting a solo sailor years ago on a little West Wight Potter, maybe 17'? She carried extra stainless rigging, swaging tool etc and she offered to help a buddy jury rig his 26' mono!! Wow. No dyneema on our 31' tri yet. Might happen down the road (ps we carry a tiny generator on the 31 too😉). You two have done a ton of work! Fair winds, Carleen in 🇨🇦

[@Tulasendlesssummer]

Thanks for the comment!! Those Farriers are saweeet! I would love to do 18 knots in one. What kinda tri is your 31'?

[@carleenh4946]

Tula's Endless Summer our 31 is also a Farrier. It's a 1995 F-31 design from when he worked with Corsair. We got her in the Bahamas a couple of years ago. She had a few holes in her main Hull and had been basically abandoned on Eleuthera. So we drove down to Florida, bought her original trailer, parked it in Ft. Lauderdale. Then flew to Eleuthera with about 500lbs of repair stuff, tools, an outboard and gear with Watermakers Air. They were awesome!! We fixed her up enough to float and sailed her back to the US. Top speed was 14 knots but we sailed her fairly conservatively. We trailered her home to Canada and cruised on her in our beautiful fresh water Great Lakes for a month last summer. But I'm keen to get back to the Bahamas. Cheers, Carleen.

[@wilber504]

i'm just starting to experiment with Dyneema. Good show.

[@Bleemus]

Kudos to you for trying it. I go for steel and have dyneema on board for emergency repairs.

[@WRMannIII]

Great new channel . . . thanks for sharing!

[@Tulasendlesssummer]

Thanks for watching!!!

[@Sun-Soul]

Appreciate the extra information! I thought this channel was going to be for video's like your last upload on Tula's Endless Summer... all "boat work" related videos on here. And "Blue Water" vids on the other. But I see now, that you're just going to do the much more technical videos on here. It doesn't matter to me. I'll watch you guys wherever you post! Great channels, awesome information, and beautifully entertaining! I still remember long ago watching "Lifeguard Life". Had to be at least 3 years ago now, maybe longer! Your editing and your boat life has sure come a long way since then, eh? Stay safe and happy guys! 💜☀️😊

[@Tulasendlesssummer]

Thanks so much!!! Yah def more tech stuff on this side. Def let us know what you would and wouldn't like to see.

[@winmosser]

Depending on the application you can save $$ by going with standard sk78 dyneema instead of the heat stretched (dux etc). On our 42 cat we use 11mm sk78 which has approx the same strength as your 9mm dux, but is considerably cheaper. The reason we can do this is the type of rig; we have a simple 3-wire dinghy style stay rig, so some stretch during run-in is not a problem. For you, or anyone with a multiple spreader rig I would definitely use the heat stretched material as you need your rig taught to keep the mast in column. Love the diy aspect to this material.

[@Tulasendlesssummer]

Great point. You're right, if you don't mind adjusting a bunch in the beginning you can save a ton of money by not going with dux. And you're def right, it'd be risky for us with a conventional rig having it go slack in the beginning. And we have x8 lashings we would have to adjust in the beginning which would be quite a pain. Did you go lashings only for tensioning? Does your rig have diamonds? If so, what was your solution there?

[@winmosser]

Tula's Endless Summer the diamonds are wire but I will happily change them out for dux in the future (don’t want stretch there). Tension on the shrouds is all Colligo and 5/16 (overkill) lashings, the running back stays have 4:1 adjusters. Currently wire forestay with roller like you but would prefer hank on fully battened jib all dyneema. That thing is heavy!

[@timblankenship6645]

We just finished with changing all our standing rigging from stainless steel wire to dyneema on a 34' Hans Christian. A lot of trial and error especially with getting the shroud lengths correct. We went with colligo dux and John Franta is super helpful and always answers the phone when you call him. I would do it all over again in a minute. We saved about $5000 by doing it ourselves.

[@TulasTechTalk]

What method did you use for tensioning?

[@mattbelding8694]

I will give your channel a try.

[@Tulasendlesssummer]

Thanks Matt! Let us know what you would and wouldn't like to see!

[@mattbelding8694]

You kids just keep with the tech format and live your dream.

[@grantrichardson1215]

Hello professor. I actually understand what your talking about. Do you ever just smile inwardly when a problem pops up? Because you know what needs to be done to correct it? That's cool stuff.

[@Tulasendlesssummer]

haha I like the knowledge of knowing how to solve a problem but I def still prefer to prevent those pesky little problems!

[@williambiggs2308]

@@Tulasendlesssummer Have you used or considered using Six Sigma processes?

[@fissh29]

Do a cost analysis please...love the second channel...favorable winds

[@gavsintasmaina]

Great info... your great at 'do it yourself' !

[@lesterwicklein717]

very excellent!

[@antoinem01]

Nice one on the rigging. Going for Lithium in the battery department too? Interested in your energy balance (don't know if it's the correct terminology....)

[@todddunn945]

Of course you can do your own stainless standing rigging with minimal tools. All you need is a hack saw and a couple of wrenches. With that tool set you can build stays and shrouds using StaLok, Hayn Hi-Mod or Norseman fittings. You can carry spares and some wire quite easily. In my experience it only takes about 15 minutes to build a new stay or shroud. The only reason to use swaged fittings is cost. In fact many people argue against using swaged terminals as the lower termination on stainless rigging suggesting that mechanical terminals are better there. Do not get the impression that I am opposed to synthetic rigging. In that area I just today finished the install of a removable dyneema 12 triatic stay on my ketch. I made it removable since we step and unstep our spars annually and a removable stay eliminates two extra trips up the mast each year. I do like the new channel though.

[@TulasTechTalk]

great point Todd! and you're absolutely right, all you would need to replace a ss stay is new wire and a new cone for your fitting which should be easy to carry for most boats. I think the only disadvantage would be how much extra weight you are willing to carry and if you have the space. I know I have enough dux to re-rig the whole boat at just a few pounds. I think for 98% of cruising boats though the weight of extra wire vs. dux wouldn't even matter especially if you had the space.

[@rcsailer]

Hey Billy, what your plans for the summer are, are you planning on lifeguarding again? It would be cool if you came up the east coast to Canada!

[@andypag1071]

Hey Billy, one year on, has the dyneema creeped in length?

[@peterlindh9473]

How about the fact that the coefficient of thermal expansion for Dyneema is negatively correlated with your aluminium hardware (mast etc)? ie. when your mast is shrinkng due to cold weather, your dyneema rig is getting longer and the other way around when it's getting hotter. Given a 25 degree temperatur shift and you need to retune your rigg completely. Not a big deal if you live in stable latitudes with minimal temperature fluctuations or only use your boat for a limited season. The bigger the boat (longer mast/rig), the greater the issue. Maybe you should invest in a carbon mast while your at it. That will limit the issue...

[@xavierpierron2138]

More than 2 years after installing the Through Bolt Cheeky Tangs, are you still satisfied with their holding power into existing larger holes initially made for the stainless backing shells?

[@billberry557]

Dyneema is non conductive of electricity of course once wet that changes somewhat however would be less conductive than stainless steel or other rigging.

[@vaidotasratkus7619]

Its almost impossible to sail in northern regions, Temperature can change more than 10c in a day and it can get to negative temperatures and no time to adjust tension. I never seen any monohull went to Svalbard or Greenland using dyneema. BUT in milk run it is much better than steel

[@remodeledcatidea5324]

Dyneema® doesn't offer much heat resistance, with a melting point of 277°F. The temperature of the tip of a lit cigarette when smoldering is close to 1100 degrees Fahrenheit. The temperature of the tip during a two-second puff can be more than 1600 degrees Fahrenheit.

[@csapoamedia3055]

I would love to have a dyneema rigging, but I'm not experienced in rigging unfortunately. Do you know anybody, who can do it in the south of France or Spain? My Boat is 15mx4.75m and has a furling mast.

[@budsvjourney2919]

Thank you for another excellent vid....... However there is one thing I don’t get........wouldn’t it be a lot better to use synthetic with turnbuckles (in lieu of lashings) for ongoing tuning? This would be especially useful with the lifelines.

[@Tulasendlesssummer]

Since DUX is pr-stretched (and we pr-stretched our shrouds after we spliced) we should not have to go through any ongoing tuning. The line is way oversized so creep should not be a factor either. If you did have to make constant adjustments then yes, turnbuckles would definitely be way easier but if you are solely using turnbuckles for tensioning then your shroud measurements and splicing need to be very very accurate. You could go lashings for the bulk adjustment and turnbuckles also for the fine tuning and constant adjustment but everything is a trade-off...

[@algamble]

A question....I've been told that a catamaran, as it does not heel in a gust, takes that load much more on the standing rigging.....is that an advantage of dyneema? Does dyneema stretch somewhat, and reduce the shock load on the boat when hit by a gust? And if so, would you consider that as an advantage?

[@Tulasendlesssummer]

All the "stretch" is worked out of Dux (a very specific type of dyneema) so no, it wouldn't stretch. As the line starts to see constant loads exceeding like 10% or 20% (i forget the exact number) it will start to "creep" which is like permanent stretch that doesn't recoil. This isn't really good because then you would have to re-adjust your rigging to keep it tight. We don't expect to see loads like this normally. Either way I dont know if I would consider any "stretch" in rigging an advantage. I'll have to think about that a bit...

[@philipjackson6972]

Looks cool too 😎 How long are you expecting it to last?

[@Tulasendlesssummer]

Indefinitely as long as we protect them from chafe

[@snapstring3134]

👍

[@davidkaehele8910]

I was wondering if you thought the weight savings would overcome the extra windage created by the thicker rigging. One mm thicker times hundreds of feet creates a lot of extra windage. Does the 100lb saving overcome the extra windage as far as performance?

[@TulasTechTalk]

Great question!

[@sailingshadowfax7518]

The biggest value to me is being able to do this DIY and carry spares in remote places.

[@peterkacandes5905]

I still think you need to put some leather boots (or something) around the lower part of the shrouds for UV and chafe protection.

[@TulasTechTalk]

Yes, you're definitely right

[@phillycheesetake]

It's more beneficial on a monohull than it is on a multihull.

[@TulasTechTalk]

How come? Seems counter to what most people think. Can you explain why you think it’s more beneficial on a mono?

[@phillycheesetake]

@@TulasTechTalk Because while a multi-hull might gain a slightly higher acceleration and max speed by shedding some weight, the positioning of the weight is less critical to designs which rely on form stability. When you reduce weight aloft in a mono-hull, you lower it''s centre of gravity, and thus increase it's righting inertia (moment), effectively make the rig more powerful since it will stand in the wind more upright. That's part of the reason multi-hulls are so powerful, their sails are always perpendicular to the wind, they don't heel over and spill air. What this means in a slow, cruising mono-hull is that hull speed will be achieved at lower apparent wind speeds. That won't be due to the fact that the boat is lighter, it'll be because the sails are producing more power at equivalent area, and more area can be put up for equivalent heel angle. Max speed won't increase, but it will be achieved more often. Also, if you think about adding 1/2 a knot onto your catamaran's average speed, that's less significant than adding 1/2 a knot onto a mono-hulls average speed. And I don't even think shedding 100lbs would give a cat half a knot, 100lbs halfway up a mono-hull's mast certainly could shed half a knot though.

[@TulasTechTalk]

Absolutely awesome points!

[@hotrodhog2170]

Well that ended abruptly! Lol

[@osii56]

Dyneema sounds like some blade runner future drug.

[@sails3538]

For long distance sailing..... chaff is a serious problem... a line can chaff through in 6 to 7 hours and you will loose your mast. Inspections all the time would become very burdensome, very quickly. The best rigging is galvanized at 5% cost of SS or Synthetic. Easy to replace every 5 yrs and people don't know its galvanized unless they look close. It cost me 350$ to do my 65ft sail boat.

[@TulasTechTalk]

$350?!? How many hours does it take to rig your whole boat? Do you do it with the mast up? I've been reading the rigger's apprentice over and over and find it intriguing using galvanized wire.

[@sails3538]

@@TulasTechTalk ... you can do it with the mast up.... but my rig was down. No one noticed when they came on the boat ... its so close in looks.

[@remodeledcatidea5324]

..But dont accidentally touch it with the hot side of a cigarette.

[@captainlee1]

Where's the funny girl?

[@fxpthl]

OK dude, time to retire That shirt!

[@TulasTechTalk]

it's now my lucky fishing shirt...

[@fxpthl]

Tula's Tech Talk Well then you Must keep it forever!

[@BethBrowne]

Wire rigging fittings are all reusable unless they're swaged and it's not that hard to DIY. I feel like this video is misleading and heavily biased. There are downsides to synthetic rigging too.

[@TulasTechTalk]

The video title literally says “(and some cons)” not all cons. These are just some points to consider. Stainless fittings like Norseman or sta-lok can certainly be re-used but they may still have a lifespan due to crevice corrosion that comes hand in hand with stainless. Synthetic certainly isn’t for everybody.