Proxies in Magic The Gathering

[@Techpriest]

Man, I remember Napster and Kazaa. In high school someone I knew got taken to court for downloading songs, and it got thrown out because the judge saw a 15 year old being sued for tens of thousands and thought it was absurd.

[@luisvicharra7623]

I do remember Kazaa giving my pc lots of viruses. Never again.

[@johnbts9216]

And now u can listen to everything for free…even on say KZbin. Large scumbag corporations do what they do.

[@professormancaptain4210]

Kazaa was so gross popular science made fun of how virusy it was, like mid sentence all casual like. Audio galaxy was outstanding. Napster changed everything. I bought the first cd burner that was released (8x speed. 150 usd) Napster created the first time in history you didnt need to rely on TV, or "your buddy's older sister" to find new music. Nor buying random cds after driving to an out of town store. And you could put it all on a cd with more time than an album, and for less than fifty cents. Yeah, Kazaa was indeed patient zero for many pc stds in the 90s

[@ocha-time]

I just picked up four Wrenn and Six for $4. Good deal, and it's weird, I still tap the same mana and the table doesn't implode when the proxy hits the countertop It's still in English, it's got WORDS, I'm wondering what I've been doing with my life. Glad WotC cleared it up for me and kept it fake real, one love Hasbro

[@bamf940]

My same thoughts. Enjoy your gameplay!

[@lordnicenstein5105]

Thumbnail of culture I see!

[@johnbts9216]

I buy Reserved list and support my lgs via Pokemon, but at this point my playgroup proxies everything. We just had an awesome BRO draft in full proxy. Got boosters generated by Draftsim and printed the cards out on card stock. Had a great time for virtually pennies. And guess what…we just reconstituted each booster to draft again next week.

[@Mat-tg4fk]

Proxying gave me the window to get a feel of and eventually be comfortable buying expensive/reserved list cards. Proxying also gives me an option to keep my collection safe, the real Gaea's cradle doesnt need to leave my house EVERY occasion I want to play magic. If I never used proxies I would not be eventually ok with buying boxes JUST to give my LGS sales. While wotcs recent antagonism doesnt surprise me, it really put into perspective how little the individual customer that put effort into viably buying real mtg matters compared to their profit goals.

[@Beckola44]

I remember Limewire. I used it to download music years ago. Another one was Napster. I have no issues with Proxies. Some people cannot afford the expensive cards so they buy a proxy. My family and friends use them for Commander when we play at the kitchen table. I am against Counterfeit cards. Thanks for the video.

[@johnbts9216]

Sorry to call u out, but there is no way to tell the difference in intent for people with proxies vs counterfeits. People can be malicious if they want to.

[@Beckola44]

@@johnbts9216 Yes, people can be malicious. We bought the proxies on Etsy to use for commander only. Most of these proxies have different artwork on the flip side of the card so those are totally different than counterfeit cards.

[@orionmark95]

My playgroup generally self regulates power quite well. Most of us are here to play the game, regardless of win rates. Some of us have consistently fielded decks with far far below the 25% "avg" win rates. We are more interested in seeing our decks just work. Hence we have FFA proxy policy, as well as a free mulligans (within reason of course, we wanna have multiple games.) More often than not, the proxies are mainly for aesthetics than power. Understandably, this may not apply to everyone.

[@penguinlust6749]

The original judgement against the single mom that was fined for downloading songs was $1.5M, payable to the RIAA. That got reduced but I think the final court-ordered settlement was still $220k. As far as i know it was never paid -- I think she declared bankruptcy.

[@Ozclusive]

Our group went full proxy after Oko got banned like a month after it released. Its the best thing we ever did. Mind you, no fake shinies, just greyscale print in a sleeve with an original cardback. 2 bucks for any deck.

[@abderianagelast7868]

There is nothing wrong with proxying cards. The game should be about your deck construction and piloting skills, not about how much money you make vs how much your opponent does. If someone is that against proxies, they probably just want their wallet to give them the edge.

[@ahkoo83]

100% agree. I believe in minor proxy rules, like owning AT LEAST legit version of the card, but I wouldn't have an issue with someone trying stuff. ofc this is table based, nobody wants to see cEDH decks in casual games.

[@justrynnagitthere1430]

My only gripe with proxies is how it directly relates to when people start being obnoxious about Rule Zeroing a lot of rather tame cards onto their ban list because proxies and netdecking have allowed the players to assemble the most savage in-meta game strategies they can muster.

[@abderianagelast7868]

@@ahkoo83 I used to have similar restrictions myself, but then I realized that I have more fun playing the game when I can use any legal cards I want and my opponents can do the same. It puts us all on a level playing field in terms of resources, so we can just enjoy the game. So I don't have any rules on proxying anymore, provided the deck is legal for the format. And even then, that doesn't have to be the case so long as everyone agrees on it.

[@abderianagelast7868]

@@justrynnagitthere1430 Netdecking is also something I used to hate but now fully endorse. My reasoning is that netdecking is really just a way to accelerate the brewing process. It's not like each set comes with a predetermined list of decks that are considered viable; people have to spend hours upon hours brewing the competitive decks just like anyone else. The difference is that those decks usually have several if not hundreds of people brewing them all at the same time, as opposed to a single person. And given enough time, that single person will likely arrive at a deck similar to the relevant competitive deck anyway, assuming their goal is to make a competitive deck. In addition, resources like Scryfall and EDHREC can be considered netdecking depending on who you ask, and I think being against those sites isn't very helpful either. I know that doesn't touch on the Rule Zero topic at all, I just have more to talk about with the netdecking part.

[@saveachip2620]

I think everyone has their own personal and social rules when it comes to using proxies. Like for me personally, i cannot bring myself to use a proxy of a card I dont own atleast 1 copy of, i just cant do it. Even tho I know my friends wouldn't reprimand me if I did, its just my own personal guidlines. But i dont impose that way of thinking on my friends, I am ok with them using proxies of cards they dont have. Where I draw the line socially is proxing very powerful cards such as mana crypt etc. To overpower a deck that most likely could have gotten by and played fine without such cards.

[@justrynnagitthere1430]

This is often my feelings about it. If the only proxied cards are the ultra-power pieces, it seems like abusing the concept, but I also understand when people say that the price and rarity of the power pieces is the only reason they need to proxy. To each their own, as long as they arent trying to be cheaters or abusers about it.

[@chasetheswift]

My play group for FNM is cool with a few proxies if the card isn't owned. These are guys that have $700+ commander decks though lol. For modern I have to use proxies at official events because of curled foils lol.

[@gankgoat8334]

This just hammers home the fact that we need cheap versions of cards for play. If I have a doubling season I am going to use a proxy just because I don't want to damage an $80ish card.

[@Radiodragonofdoom]

Yeah, for a while I really wanted some dual lands and some other grossly expensive cards. Then I realized that if I did own those, I still wouldn't play with the actual cards for this exact reason. There is no way in hell I'm letting my $500 cardboard square out of my house.

[@roadrash2005]

@@Radiodragonofdoom magic is like playing chess but the queen is paid dlc.

[@pandoranbias1622]

I think there is a similar situation in retro gaming around "reproductions". Most clones are passed off as authentic as soon as they come out of a Chinese factory, but there are a few genuine individuals out there who modify these bootlegs to function without issues and sell them as reproductions. Authentic cartridges for old Pokemon games like Ruby and Emerald are just too high to buy authentic copies, so if you want a cartridge you have to buy a bootleg or a modified reproduction.

[@Little_Beggar]

I honestly feel like MTG cards are insanely expensive for US budget standards already, not to mention anywhere else in the world. I get that people want to use real cards and all, but trying to shame people into it with stuff like "I'm not playing with you unless you have a piece of cardboard worth more than your car" is insane. Feels like they have some form of stockholm syndrome and would feel like an idiot for buying the real ones if everyone just played with proxies. The pricing of the game was already insulting before, and is almost abusive at this point. I dream to see the day when the EU finally regulates these as gambling and the same with lootboxes and gacha games. WotC not acknowledging the secondary market is coming to an end as well.

[@justrynnagitthere1430]

Thats a nice pair of proxies in the thumbnail.

[@itsallfunandgames723]

I find it crazy that the expensive collectible cards are even still seen as game pieces you could use in your deck. But thanks to age we live in people have options, they can print out their own proxies at home, they can buy proxies online, or if it suits them better they can buy realistic proxies that look just like the original card. People have the right and freedom to not declare what their cards are and not tell people they're running proxies, and the realistic proxies preserve that right. The community can exercise the right to disregard and bypass the opinions of those who wouldn't whine playing against a millionaire with real cards, but think they can raise a hue and cry against those who use cheaper versions of the cards.

[@utkphilobio]

Personally, I've recently switched entirely to proxies. I have no interest in buying official product.

[@gmGrudgeMonster]

Started an art project where Im teaching myself how to paint (digitally) by doing rough interpretations for the art of each card from the Unlimited set. Unlimited was where I started with MtG, and after the disappointing way WotC handled 30th anniversary, I kind of want to turn them into proxies and make an unlimited cube to play with.

[@metalplaysgames]

Luckily my meta is "as long as you say you have a 6 it should be a 6 and legible to read" and it goes for whatever power level. Even the stores by me are proxy friendly

[@Amphibian42]

You know what records companies' actions encouraged people who truly care about music to do? Pirate from them even more, and support independent artists! If magic starts cracking down i will do the exact same thing here!

[@amberhernandez]

I have two proxies: Cavern of Souls and Klothys, God of Destiny. Both of them were horribly burned during a house fire, with Klothys being partially melted into her sleeve. I HAVE the cards, but I don't want to spend $50 on another Cavern, and a new Klothys won't match my foil signed by Magali herself!

[@Lyricaon]

I think if someone around me would be like "I don't wanr to play against proxys" I would build myself the most miserable staxx/bordwipe/hate/countermagic deck ever and that would be my one deck without proxys, that I would then run instead.

[@ThisAreOr]

This is not complaining that WotC did something they couldn't have done legally but WotC did come down on Card Conjurer a few weeks back and its timing does feel like a response to M30's failure to get traction in the community and the impromptu response of the community to be more accepting of proxies so this made WotC scramble to shut down the most convenient tool the players had to making their own proxies and felt retaliatory to the proxy community and the Custom card(like wholly new card ideas) community. I think that something that isn't touched on in this video was I'm hearing a lot of players, half in my local pod even, have decided to switch to full proxy decks and stop supporting Hasbro. I think proxying is a much more complicated issue then a lot of people give credit. There are many reasons someone will proxy cards now and it could be one of them and it could be a mix of all of them.

[@pepperonization]

how do u stop proxies when u can just write the card info on a piece of paper and slot it into the sleeve with a mtg card back? as long as you dont attempt to sell a proxy and your good!

[@FDXHOMEDEL]

I don’t care. Full proxy a 10/10 power level commander deck, or pirate an entire modern deck, or just do it for 1 or 2 hard to find singles. WotC has 0 respect for player’s time/money, why should we have any respect for their product? It’s my hope that proxies continue to flood tournament scenes. Nobody is going to call a judge on you since things are double sleeved anyways, so long as the proxy looks like the real card.

[@RodrigoHenriquesLuciano]

I watched this good video cutting my proxies 😉

[@kitsunez]

You said proxies? Thats a cease and desist

[@davidhawkins2459]

Honestly I've never used proxies before 30th anniversary. Now if I don't feel like spending the money, I will. I've got proxies of both meld brothers now, for my new edh decks

[@kushluk777]

Proxies should be declared, but a set amount of them should be allowed in play, let's say 10 or 15. This promotes people building a deck, but not breaking a bank, the balance of the two. Also prevents decks becoming unreadable with 100x proxied forests in commander, for example.

[@davidhawkins2459]

Lime wire! Those were the days!!

[@JammyTheGoat347]

That topic is really interesting, but if im not wrong i do not think they could do some to me per se and ill talk on my self but i sure there are many that can relate, i do have proxy (a sticker on a land card) of mana crypt bc i have many deck and swaping is pain. Now im 1 person a complete Anon online that is out of the US and maybe out of WoTC reach per se what they could really do? Track me? What about untap or other sims and TTSs users? , in my opinion i do not think they could really do something about it maybe dreaming of doing something

[@Tyranix97]

IDK, look what Nintendo did when they released their new mini product.

[@dominicmetzger3246]

I don’t know why so many are confused about proxying for personal vs commercial Use. No one is going to get into trouble for personal use. Same goes with 3d printing your own models. It’s not a thing. The record company analogy is drastically different because you were “file sharing” thus contributing to the pirating itself.

[@Kevfactor]

Just think of custom art on the back:)

[@jamesbouras9434]

I like owning the real cards but I'm a commander player so I only own one birds so I make a proxy of that card for my other decks and I do it for a lot of my cards

[@jasoncollins218]

You know your Turing into a meme when you state that something happing irl in a “pre- conversation. It’s just a conversation man. No one is having legal meetings b4 a commander game. It’s not a pre-conversation. 🤣

[@Pers0n97]

Wizard has literally ZERO ground to sue anyone printing cards unless they start selling them, and even then, it's still probably very murky. But going after someone printing cards to use them? Lul, I'd like to see them trying. Also, using busty anime girl proxy has the advantage of giving a middle finger at the woke wizard.

[@gankgoat8334]

I'd give more thumbs up if I could.

[@JPMitchell31721]

Using a busty anime girl proxy is the mark of an incel. It's just embarrassing.

[@jasoncollins218]

What are all your thoughts on God? Would you really like to meet her?

[@SolarGamesllc]

I thought I would take a bite out of the great spaghetti

[@jameshernandez2243]

widespread proxies will be an eventual poison to mtg

[@luisvicharra7623]

Things like these remind me to be thankful to have been borne in a third world bannana republic.

[@89qwyg9yqa34t]

I will absolutely get proxies. Some of these cards are only at a price because WotC is waiting for the right several moments to reprint them. It's interesting though that you say "don't proxy Mox Jet because it doesn't help you that much." This is a very good reason why the banned list for commander is pure trash. All of the arguments come down to "but you could get 88 bajillion mana on turn-0 with these fifteen cards!!!!" Yea... assuming you draw all of them into your first hand, which commander is explicitly resistant to allowing.

[@polsen85]

Limewire totally killed my computer lol.

[@keywacat]

When Napster was going to be shut down the 1st time, before a stay was granted, 2 Corpsmen at the Naval Hospital I was at completely bogged the hospital servers in an attempt to hoover up as many songs as possible. They were even phoning each other so as not to duplicate their efforts and coordinate what they were downloading.

[@Tyranix97]

Napster!!

[@michaelmoniz4890]

I don't care if someone proxies a basic land. I want to lose to the best possible version of a deck that can be made.

[@gorganiangranola]

Other new card games that have functional paper OP remind us why proxies are generally prohibited. You play in a sanctioned tournament for prizing it's obviously fair to expect you to play with the publishers og cards. With Magic, there's a multitude of reasons why the perception of this has faded. Old formats are not approachable, Vintage etc is basically a format they chose to die via RL. Why would anyone expect somebody to have real duals, makes no sense. The next issue is casual formats, playing in a store maaybe you can expect people to play decks with as few proxies as possible, ok. But really? Casual format to play with buddies at home? No reason you have to spend the next 50 bucks and then the next again. Especially with this cadence of releases, it just doesn't check out. The last reason why I think it's clownish for Magic to take a stance against proxies is that so many new special versions come out, that a) nobody knows all of them and b) most of them look soo strange and often a lot more yucky than any fanmade proxy you could imagine. I'm quite out of the loop with Magic but I notice regularly that there's no way I could actually distinguish new Magic cards from proxies sometimes. I literally can not expect or check on people whether they present real cards all the time in this overall situation and that's going beyond simply checking counterfits (which "proxies" are if they try to look like the real card 1:1)

[@animeSairon]

boundaries create creativity. thats why playing with what you own is much more fun as to say play with all the cards that fit the deck you want to play with.

[@D0012D13]

Who cares if you can't play them in sanctioned tournaments anyway. The biggest tournaments now are smaller than I remember prereleases being around invasion era. Having a card so expensive that it prevents you from even wanting to play it doesn't seem very fun.

[@ahkoo83]

LOL I hope they just keep head hunting proxy makers, we're going down this path so lets go down it in style and let Hasbro burn the company down even more. COLLECTIBLE card game, simple philosophy, why on earth would I use my real cards worth (we're talking $20+ cards here) a lot and wear them down outside of competitive? Particularly in this day and age were proxies are so nice and bringing out artistic flair. WoTC should embrace this aspect to an extent AND ontop of it, not tournament legal. I am absolutely not endorsing counterfeit cards trying to be passed as real ones or trying to deceive your table. Are there actually people out there that would be upset that someone is proxying their 300+ dual lands? Not people I'd want to play with.

[@gtfawaynotnow]

I believe the creator has it all wrong. From my understanding people who make proxies for their own use or even share amongst friends are not the targets. Instead they are/will be targeting sites that SELL proxies online aka printing them to sell for profit. I will say that similar to the lime wire comparison that it will cost WOTC too much in litigation to pursue everyone that sells proxies in my opinion.

[@SolarGamesllc]

That was my point. Not only the cost but the reputation damage is too much.

[@marrozzone]

why suggesting not to proxy extremely expensive cards? I mean, there are formats with rules that clearly allow people to use proxies, and there are tournaments too. Personally I prefer to build and play decks that I can reasonably afford, but I'm really ok with proxies, no problems with people playing them, why should you recommend not to use them, I don't get the point.

[@AndresColumbus]

yeah that's just his personal preference but its dumb. Proxy the hell out of power nine because you'll never get to play with the real things as they are all in plastic cases.

[@fgsfdsmonkey]

You didn't address proxying hyper sexualized versions of cards. Which at some tables can be kinda creepy. Good bait tho.

[@keywacat]

The lads I play with only care about 'asshole' proxies. Someone wants to run a counterfeit dual land or Cradle, some other mana-fixing? No problem. But a counterfeit Chains of Mephistopheles or Nether Void? Hell no, go buy the real card.

[@ThisAreOr]

Would you feel better losing every game you play to real cards? or would you rather just ask to not play with a Chains of Mephistopheles or Nether Void deck?

[@keywacat]

@@ThisAreOr There is no such thing in EDH as a Chains of Mephistopheles or Nether Void deck, they are not eligible to be one's commander. What makes you think we lose to those cards? The guy that has them typically is more focused on screwing with the game state than winning, and often plays them at an inauspicious time or someone at the table is running a commander that isn't terribly bothered by whatever bullshit is going on (like when my friend played Timesifter without thinking of what the Mayael the Anima player was going to do) or someone can deal with it, either on the spot or eventually. Just like any other threat or annoying card. It's cool to see those old cards, especially if they're played as one knows they've been in play for a long time. Counterfeits don't have that same cachet.

[@edb1335]

Why the clickbait? Good channel but seems like an odd choice.

[@danielkuttel7867]

Im completely fine with Decks that are using some proxys. But I hate to get crushed from 5000 € decks. but all cards are only proxys. Thats should not be the goal. I invest some time to complete my decks an MTG is about Gathering. My kenrith deck is now 3 years old. I collect all the expensive cards, and so i have the same claim to the other players. Its fine: Sit on the table, use some proxys but show me the love to the game and the will to collect the real cards over time. The only exception is Legacy and Vintage. The cards are absurdly expensive and there I will accept decks with only proxys.

[@ThisAreOr]

I think if at every game and got crushed by a €5000 deck made all of real cards "lovingly" assembled you'd stop playing with that pod regardless if they were real or not. This response to the topic seems like you would rather just rule 0 to make sure your decks are well balanced for the game you all want to have regardless of the "love of the game" or what you call "real cards".

[@bamf940]

@@ThisAreOrrule zero talks so so important.

[@Lusk1993]

Commander sucks, literally the only game where your fun is completely dependant on the whims of your friends or worse strangers

[@braxtonrasmussen2110]

Really? It seems like your fun is dependent on others simply by it being a multiplayer game. All it takes is one person being annoying to ruin the experience. Like warhammer, d&d, monopoly, any board game ever... All it takes is one person flipping the table and your fun experience is ruined

[@DefCatofficial]

I'm VERY pro proxy for others, but I myself hate using them unless I have to in order to play at a cedh event (time twister). I did something I wish a large part of the community will do, I'll email you about it @solorgames

[@SolarGamesllc]

Looking forward to it