Subwoofers and planar speakers

Is the old myth that subwoofers haven't the speed to keep up with planars and panels true?

[@dank.6942]

+1 more. 2 really good subs "fixed" my Magnepans too. I high-pass the Maggies, minimizing overlap. Subs filled in so much information, it allowed the space to open up and the dynamics to improve. Plus, the mids and top end both clear up in quieter listening sessions as well as when they're played louder, thus enhancing room effect. A huge improvement with subs.

[@tlinrin887]

I did the same thing, Maggie's with stereo subs crossed fairly high (around 90 hz). I love it.

[@OlehZavadsky]

I have recently added 2x REL T9x to my Maggies 1.7, connected them by hi-power interface (actually in parallel to the speakers driven by old NAD poweramp). Positioned them on the outer sides of the speakers as the room is pretty large. It took me then several listening/adjusting sessions, rather challenging, before I reached the sweet spot. Goodness, they not only added a punchy, rock-solid base, but also improved overall dynamics raging high up to the lower notes of tenor voices. Unexpectedly good! Now contrabasses, cellos, tubas, baritones, they all sound so deeply... just like in a real philharmonic hall. Jazz and electronics is of course a much easier task for the system, so they are amazing by all means. Transparent and natural timbre of Maggies are now stading on an earthquake-proof basement of REL.

[@bounty446]

Wow couldn't agree more

[@rtel123]

back in my teens, I worshipped the thumps of big bass for my rock music. I am now in love with classical and jazz, and my maggies provide a perfect balance. Even demanding bass or drum passages in jazz are perfectly delivered. I would not think to mess with that.

[@gerritgovaerts8443]

the real potential issue is the integration problem of a dipole panel speaker with a monopole sub : there will be cancelation of the in phase sound of the monopole sub with the out of phase sound from the back of the dipole in the overlap freqency zone . 2 solutions come to mind . 1) keep the frequency overlap zone as small as possible with very steep (4th order or better) filters for BOTH panel speakers and sub (do not let the panel speakers go as low as the sub but choose a common x-over point) . 2) use a dipole (or ripole) sub

[@lobstame]

Absolutely the best solution for me was adding two RELs to your setup! It took me months to place them and fine tune them to my liking but what a difference! I didn’t use the “crawl” method but I was determined to get the sound I needed to overcome the room’s black hole. It isn’t my imagination, everyone that has listened with me says that low end is right on. I hope I don’t have to move anything.

[@nathanevans6277]

The way a panel speaker loads the room is very different from how a box speaker does. This can cause issues with integrating a monopole box sub with a dipole panel main. At the crossover frequency you have two totally different systems trying to do the same thing. An open baffle subwoofer, like the GR Research Triple Treat, or a ripole subwoofer loads the room in the same way as the panel speaker making it much easier to integrate. Remember that the room is a major component in your system.

[@andreasheiden7122]

I combined my Magnepan LRS with two SVS subs x-over at 100hz via miniDSP. What a difference. I also did a full phase correction on the system with FIR filters for my main listening position. Gives incredible soundstage and clarity and overall impuls response is fantastic.

[@skip1835]

Interesting - to me anyway - back in the 80's I got into one of Paul's servo subs, it was the Genius brand - I could not get that thing to integrate with a pair of Magnepan IIIa's, I even called Genesis looking for some advice and incredibly Paul picked up the phone - (way before the internet our Mr. McGowan already had quite the reputation in the audiophile world, I'll never forget his graciousness) - I never told Paul that I actually had one of his subs, but he went on about the need of a servo style set up without specifically pushing the Genesis brand (guess he hasn't changed all that much over the decades) - - anyway, sure, it was fun to mess with the sub but there wasn't a shred of coherence between the planars and that massive point source sub, no matter what I did (myth?, don't think so) - - jump to today, I'm matching a pair of Paul's favorites to 3.7i's with completely different and very satisfying results - - - I could never go back to straight maggies - I bought those subs and they sat for over a year in a side room while I fine tuned the maggies by themselves, my hesitation was because of those previous experiences with the IIIa's - - - that was a bit of a mistake, at least in terms of how long I waited to bring them into the room. I will admit that I messed with fine tuning for some months before I felt I had them as seamless as possible but waayy worth that minor effort.

[@dripslobber]

"and I'll tell you a little quick story" Where we would be without those stories? 😂

[@tedjensen8841]

I have run this same scenario myself with Magnapan and REL and agree with you completely, they work wonderfully together.

[@amosperrine1909]

Got the same subs and Maggie 1 series from the 70s, great great great with ARC tube electronics

[@air870]

Absolutely. I have a T zero MK III along with my LRSs and the setup sounds good, so much so that I am considering the possibility of adding one more T ZERO or swapping the existing one for a T5X

[@brentcollins9727]

I have two T5X’s with my Sonus Faber Sonetto 3’s and love them

[@marcse7en]

My 1979 British 🇬🇧 Mordaunt Short Pageant's have superb "richter scale" bass, and don't need a Subwoofer! ... They're quite capable of dislodging the roof tiles ALL by themselves!

[@stephenstevens6573]

Finally!! So much truth in one episode!! Subs with Magnaplanars! High end audio is a "hobby" YES!!

[@edasm4113]

This is exactly my setup. Two RELs and Maggie 3.7i and I GUARANTEE IT WORKS! And I, too, started with M&K. :)

[@JJ-no2ob]

Double the pleasure - use 2 subwoofers! Your mileage my vary - depending on your room.

[@lobstame]

Yes! I tried a single sub, then I purchased another after saving up enough cash to purchase a second one. I think you can do it with one, but in my case it worked to my advantage to add the second one.

[@Jack96993]

I had a sub with my stand mount speakers back in 1995 Currently l have two SVS Ultra 13subs with the upgraded plate amps and have them mated with my .7's Maggie's I like that I can dial everything in with the SVS phone app from my listening position

[@EricJFrank]

Maggie 1.7’s and dual SVS SB-4000 subs and I’ve been happy ever since.

[@dajikbatarang1]

Using an active crossover to integrate subs with maggies is the best way to do it. It is a seamless blend.

[@brianmoore581]

Paul, if we could get you to end your show with a whispered "God bless" you would sound like Bob Ross. So when PS Audio releases a subwoofer, I hope it's something that would benefit my Revel Salon 2 speakers. Most subs don't play low enough or fast enough. Just keep that in mind. Give us giant pipe organ bass that's also very fast. Give us DSP room correction. Give us state of the art.

[@CobraChamp]

I too have Revel Salon2s and in the right room with the right acoustic treatments, my Dirac Live bass measurements (below the Schroeder frequency) look pretty tame. Are they perfect, no (nothing is), but there are no huge peaks or valleys. If I could find a fast sub, I might add one, but the Salon2s play really really low (-3dB @ 23hz) are very quick and smooth so having owned a pair of REL s/812s before, I would not be buying those again. They seemed slow and didn't play nearly as deep as the Salons.

[@garyhilbolt4363]

I too have the Magnepan 3.7i's. I Incorporated theREL 9x as well and the integration has been smooth and rewarding.

[@chrislj2890]

Back in the '90s I had two 10" NHT subwoofers with my Magnepan MG-1.5/QR speakers. Worked and sounded just fine.

[@slapstra1970]

I have never thought to sit on my REL

[@gullrockgeorge9057]

I first tried a sub 40+ years ago, an RH Labs, with my Magneplanars. Had a hard time making it work. Set them up as best I could but that sub eventually became an end table. Was about 10 years later before I got what I wanted by adding a pair of small DIY subs to the Maggies.

[@rodm1949]

The type of sub is crucial, I prefer a piano type that uses a smaller cabinet and next to no porting. The other option with extensive porting gives the Wwomh feel distorting the natural sound.

[@keithnelson1182]

I agree on most folks have too high of a crossover.. me 44hz/24 db slope … just need the floor .. have 4-12” in the mains and they can move a lot of air if you crank them up .. with adding the sub I now listen a good 10+ db lower volume and still get the authority I like I have friend that bought a pair of magnaplanes a year or so ago … went to listen .. he played forget me nots by Patrica Rusen .. I have the same 12” single so played it when I got back home .. the magnaplanes were missing all the upper midrange .. no pluck of the bass. .. guess it could be the cartridge as I use a linear contact stylus

[@rvdh1964]

This is exactly what Martin Logan has been perfecting the last decades: elektrostats with very fast subwoofers. Very dynamic with great fast base. I truly love my ESL 13A’s. But I also loved my ESL 11A’s, Summits, SL3’s and Sequel 2’s. Try some ML’s if you can. You’ll be surprised.

[@bounty446]

I still have my MK 350 THX from way back LOL but now have 2 212/SX due any day can't wait. It is with a set of Revel Studio Salons, Not Maggie's but my buddy is running them with Maggie's and WOW.

[@markmeridian3360]

It's a myth that a single subwoofer can completely make up for a room's audio characteristics. Just like the stereo woofers, the low bass notes from just the subwoofer have nulls throughout the room. The location of the nulls vary with frequency so the best you can do is to improve the sound in a relatively small listening location. It's also a myth that a subwoofer doesn't affect imaging as its pattern is uniform throughout the room. Try shutting your main speakers off - you can easily hear where the sound from the subwoofer is coming from. When I bought new speakers, I found that they benefited from subwoofers, and I much preferred dual subwoofers immediately adjacent to the main stereo speakers. To optimize the sound at the listening location I played with the placement of both the main speakers and adjacent subwoofers. That didn't actually improve the sound over my older speakers so I ended up selling the new speakers and subwoofers.

[@paulgaerisch]

I have Magnepan and I use an SVS subwoofer. Sounds great.

[@Ian-wh8ut]

I think Eddie Van Halen said if you can hear the base its too loud! i do love some base tho.

[@PanAmStyle]

Paul: Do you mean keeping the FREQUENCY low on the sub or the amplitude/volume? In my experience (albeit a bit limited) there needs to be some overlap to get the frequency curve smooth. And FWIW, one of the better but more unknown subwoofer lines I’ve experienced is from Atohm, distributed in the US by Audio Excellent. Those babies just disappear. They don’t have nearly as much fancy controls as the MJ subs from the UK, but the Atohms are easy to get right.

[@shipsahoy1793]

Too many "audiophiles" seem to really like an exaggerated presentation of bass frequencies, not just bass extension to achieve a full range sound. A cool effect for a disco dance, or other pop music where bass is a standout, home theater, or even certain electronic music, but typically not a good presentation for a lot of stereo listening to overexaggerate the bass extension...and I'm talking about direct sound, and I'm not getting into room modes in this comment.

[@danielstartek9729]

He's taking a dump on his subwoofer! Ha Ha!

[@bradstone2603]

Dare I say... GR research Triple threat?

[@CobraChamp]

Another great video, Paul. How thick are those absorption panels to the left of you as you sit on the Sub?

[@Justwantahover]

Could you have a sub with many small woofers instead of one large one, and could that keep up with planar speakers easier?

[@whome8192]

So there is a phase difference, and modern subs have phase adjustments.

[@RickMahoney2013]

I have. M&K filter of some sort that it hook up between my receiver and speakers. I don’t know the science behind that little box but it sure does make my system sound great maybe someone knows what I am talking about and can explain it to me.

[@glenncurry3041]

Magnepan tried to solve this with the Ultra Wideband Bass System. Not sure what happened to it?

[@aerossignol]

Sorry if I missed it. So what was the problem with your og setup? Time delay? No crossover?

[@hoobsgroove]

You need to adjust your delay a decent subwoofer should have a delay knob or in the app, if you want to try and achieve 20 hertz match then you've got to be a metre away from your main speakers behind just keep moving the sub further and further back half a metre will give you about 40 hertz crossover and that's the way you should be with all speakers.

[@tubefreeeasy]

Wonder how Maggies would sound with a baffle-less sub?

[@tikibongo99]

I have 2 Maggie 1.7i s. I'm not wanting for bass.

[@uzyh7622]

Hi paul. class A amp with a tube pre amp is it good ?

[@janinapalmer8368]

Planer drivers are predominantly mid range devices and to even think of coupling them to a sub driver horrifies me 🥹 Somewhere in this alliance a really good Mid/Bass coupler will be needed ESPECIALLY if you have the frequency turned down ! 4:49