Open baffle speakers

Here's Paul's take on open baffle vs. closed box.

[@roberthaysley4245]

There are a number of open baffle speaker companies such as Spatial and GR Research that deal with those issues.

[@johndaddabbo9383]

Sorry, however pose this exact question to "any" speaker manufacturer that do not make Open Baffle speakers and you will receive a very similar answer. There are some truly amazing Box speakers out there nowadays, and the FR30 is without a doubt one of them, however I dare you to go and listen to a properly designed Open Baffle speaker in a proper setup (3+ ft from the front wall and all of that) and then once you have heard such a system, I then dare you to go back and listen to your Box speaker at the same or even double the price, and try to "un-hear the Box". You simplify won't be able to and you will forever have fallen in Love with the fast, open, and glorious musical reproduction of a well designed Open Baffle speaker. Pair your new open-baffle speakers with a pair of open-baffle subs (positioned in the room for the best bass) and there is no going back. Ps. Then do as I have done, and add an additional set of monster ported subwoofers for use only during Movie watching and have the very best of both worlds. So NO, no need for the dual ported subs for Musical Concert listening sessions (2-Channel or Surround sound). The dual stack of open-baffle subs are plenty for that, and it is ONLY for full-fledged blockbuster Movies that the two additional ported subs are desired (as for some folks they won't be "necessary"). OK, well just one man's opinion 😀. Enjoy!

[@alexiheaka1074]

I agree! I’ve listened to B&W top of the line $28k speakers, and then listened to $2k OB speakers. I got rid of the B&W’s. The sounded boxy and unreal. I love my OBs.

[@davewin1792]

Paul with all due respect, open baffle speakers blow the socks off box speakers in room interaction, bass quality is through the roof with OB. They do have their limitations as you've pointed out. I would recommend subs for so many reasons that you've pointed out in the past regardless of speaker type.

[@gerritgovaerts8443]

Even for subs , OB is the way to go as long as you design it right : plenty of surface area and Xmax for the woofers and enough dipole distance . A good starting point is 2 x 18 inch drivers with 25 mm Xmax both ways .

[@scottwolf8633]

Acoustic Elegance manufactures, in America, woofers for use in an open baffle alignment that doesn't require any type of electronic equalization. The 1st order filter network approximated by such an alignment, with a 6db/octave roll off, yields surprisingly accurate bass. As quick and musical as my Stax earspeakers.

[@haraldperryrhoden1986]

Steinway Lyngdorf is a high end company that makes some very impressive open baffle speakers at a high price. They sound very good.

[@glenncurry3041]

With the resurgence of open baffle, maybe it's time to go all the way! Infinite Baffle! Mount the drivers in your outside wall and let the back be open to outside. Keep your doors and windows closed to keep the front and back outputs from cancelling. Neighbors won't be happy! But it is the best loading for a driver! I had a friend that did mount a large woofer into his floor as open baffle with the basement as it's enclosure? Very efficient and low!

[@SteveWille]

As I understand, one of the advantages of OBs **is** the cancelation that occurs. With the baffle shape adequately designed, there is desirable cancelation to the sides of the speakers which limits room reflection issues that might otherwise cause cancelations around the listening position.

[@bradmodd7856]

but increased reflections behind the speaker....I assume these reflections are a big part of the charm that they offer....soundstage (reverberation)

[@user-od9iz9cv1w]

Absolutely correct. They need to be 4-6 feet out from the front wall. There is the problem. The lack of sound out the side does make it more forgiving in the room. Linkwitz uses a set up where you point plane of the baffle to the first reflection point and it really does optimize in room sound. Paul has a great suggestion to use OB for 80Hz up and use sealed woofers below. Most people effectively do that by having sealed subs for anything below 50 Hz. I use a large U baffle below 100 and it drops off like a cliff below 45Hz even with 10dB low end boost.

[@LuxAudio389]

Now that is a serious healing bench. Almost looks like an open heart OR.

[@davewin1792]

Guys speaking of OB speakers, please keep Clayton Shaw of Spatial Audio in your prayers. He has some serious medical issues right now. He's one of the nicest guys in the industry.

[@ClassifiedBrief]

What?

[@davewin1792]

@@ClassifiedBrief His son posted on their website / forum that he was in the hospital for an infected pancreas.

[@ClassifiedBrief]

@@davewin1792 thanks, I'm a physician. Pancreatits. He will be just fine.

[@davewin1792]

@@ClassifiedBrief Good news.

[@jonsek]

I have a deposit on Clayton Shaw's new OB design; Calladan from Clayton Shaw Audio

[@Scottlp2]

There is a reason that some people gravitate toward non box speakers eg omnis (ohms still around), bipole (mirages), Maggie’s, dipoles, open baffle, etc. wide dispersion speakers can produce similar sound.

[@stimpy1226]

Steve Guttenberg just named his favorite new speaker of the year an open baffle unit. No one should try to compare and open baffle speaker to your Aspen series based on all the great reviews.

[@PetraKann]

Great explanation Paul. About a decade ago I made my own Open Baffle Speakers and I still use them today. I initially used fairly cheap drivers because I was experimenting with the design parameters. I eventually bought better, more efficient Woofers which dramatically improved the performance of the Speakers. Open Baffle speakers are less forgiving speaker designs, but I like the appearance and overall spacious and natural sound they deliver. (The main front panels were circular chopping boards that I bought very cheaply - a couple of angled stand supports on the rear and you're off and running) Cheers

[@jasontimothywells9895]

Hey Paul merry Christmas, you should get a pair of Danny's open baffle towers you will be amazed at what he cooked up . Anyways wishing you and everyone a merry Christmas and a better new year ,

[@dakken74]

I think Danny's are one of the Gold Standards for open baffle. Along with Spatial Audio.

[@shaunly]

Once you experience a proper OB setup, you will never want to go back. Im currently waiting for my second pair of OB towers to arrive. Can't wait!

[@rbartsch]

Closed or ported boxes create a lot of resonances which is felt as "warm" by HiFi freaks. The bigger the box the more resonances you get. These resonances are not in the recordings but added by the box. Open baffles have much less resonances but need about 2 - 3 meters distance from their back-side to the wall to get a decent level of efficiency. HiFi freaks hate open baffles while studio-quality freaks love them because of their clean sound. If you take a Ridthaler type dipol and put a small wide-range driver in an open baffle on top (cross-over frequency 200-300 Hz) you get an open-baffle speaker which can deliver -6dB@16Hz. The detail in base range is amazing. Drums sound much faster with open baffles and much more sluggish with boxed speakders.

[@jkjome4095]

If you'd like good insight on open-baffel designs, check out the few videos uploaded by GR Research. He does an excellent job of explaining the pros/cons and ways to mitigate the cons.

[@dakken74]

That's honestly the best place to start if anyone is curious about open baffle and what they're capable of.

[@artyfhartie2269]

Is pushing your own product a credible review? I am a bit baffled.

[@castro619a]

GR research is the only source of information on open baffle I really find

[@davewin1792]

He has a 4 part series that is an excellent resource.

[@googoo-gjoob]

New Record Day speaks on them, too

[@listeningto8371]

Not true. More research required.

[@gitmobob6266]

I once owned an open baffle speaker by NOLA but only the tweeter and mid-range were open and the woofers were sealed. they were warm and open and the easiest speaker to listen to for long periods of time really drawing you in the the music. The down side is the open baffle needed a lot of space to sound right and placement in the room was critical. I don't know if they are still in business but if you get a chance to hear them you are in for a treat much like the FR-30 must be.

[@MrBonger88]

Still in business. They have speaker systems from $3k to $500k

[@jimeadie4415]

Magnepan, Martin Logan, & Quad, are all open baffles. I find supplementing the low end with a fast (smaller sub) with a passive radiator is is the best match.

[@mikehuntington4440]

I’ve owned one pair of spatial audio open, baffle speakers. My only problem with open baffle speakers was, it took away a tool that I use regularly when it comes to customizing the sound. On a box speaker, you have the ability to place the speaker in your room, and then angle the speakers at you or away from you to tailor the top end and midrange. With an OB, it’s not that easy…. Because when you rotate and angle in the speaker, the bass also changes. My conclusion is, this makes box speakers easier to set up, then open baffle speakers….because OB seem to be even more picky and room dependent than box speakers.

[@listeningto8371]

Only if the subs are part of the same baffle the mids and highs. LX521

[@kenthomas1613]

What about a bi-pole loudspeaker designed to be a di-pole loudspeaker? That is to say, a bi-pole loudspeaker with the rear facing drivers 180 degrees out of phase with the front facing drivers?

[@nilsgroters2494]

I auditioned the Spatial MC No.2 and No.3 and they sounded: open, detailed, lots of bass. But they didn’t draw me into the music, i didn’t feel the emotion or get goose bumps like my Harbeths do with the same music. So for me they are not a match

[@cvee2614]

Thanks Paul. As a retired broadcast engineer OB is my choice for years now, 3D soundstage and infinite live audio and dynamics. No more box 📦 speaker for me, ever.

[@timothystockman7533]

I have well used Magnepan MMGs in a fairly small room. The bass definitely develops as they break in. I have found that 60/120 Hz hum shows up quite well on my MMGs. As a matter of fact, I just fed strategic sections of Loggins & Messina's "Vahelvala" through the 60/120 Hz notch filter to remove some annoying hum. The source was a MoFi CD of the Sitting In album. Amazing how the reverb tail of the final drumbeat sounds when it is not covered up by hum! Right now I don't have a conventional subwoofers-in-a-box, but I will likely add them at sometime in the future. I liken planer drivers to flying-wing aircraft. When you first see them, you say "How can this possibly work?" But it does work, quite well!

[@George10767]

It looks like *OPEN BAFFLE* means *NO BAFFLE* . So why not say so? The whole subject of "loudspeakers" seems similar to "radio antennas". It is so psychologically subjective that people simply don't know what they are saying. With no baffle a loudspeaker cannot reproduce base frequencies. By this I mean that it cannot efficiently transmit sound energy into the air. This is because pressure at the front simply rushes round to the back. As the frequency increases the front-to-back distance increases relative to the sound wavelength. So the efficiency becomes greater as the sound wavelength gets smaller. (The efficiency ultimately falls away for other reasons). To improve efficiency at low frequencies requires an *infinite baffle* . In practice this means a large baffle so people like to create an enclosure, the larger the better. If you decide to cut an orifice in the enclosure and provide an short "neck" in the hole then you have changed the principle entirely by creating a *Helmholtz Resonator* . This may or may not be a good idea, according to your opinion. The Helmholtz Resonator wants to resonate at one unique frequency. It's like blowing across the top of an empty milk bottle. This is a cheap and effective way of fooling the brain into believing it's listening to a good base response (which it is not).

[@bernsie6323]

Vandersteen's core beliefs are timeand phase alignment and open baffles for midrange and treble drivers.May 19, 2008

[@jvburnes]

Hybrid Example: Acarian Alon 1. Legendary holography and musical as hell.

[@EnpuerKT]

I have the Martin Logan ESL x Half of my tracks sound like there are surround speakers

[@finscreenname]

A friend had a set of open baffle speakers. When I first saw them, I thought they were a kit or something and were not finished. They had bass but it just didnt seem as snappy as my sealed boxes. Even ported boxes are not as snappy but they will get down low easier.

[@richardsoffice9176]

Acoustic Research made sealed speakers, which were very popular. The idea is that when the speaker, especially woofer, "goes in," the sound pressure in the box / cabinet increases, minimizing, preventing, "overshoot, inertia in the speaker cone." When the cone moves out, a vacuum is created, for a similar effect. Also, the out - of - phase wave is inside the speaker, & can't cancel the outside, exterior waveform. PS Audio doesn't make woofers at this time; SVS, does. In SVS' largest, most {very} powerful speakers, in the bottom front, there are 2 or 3 large, round ports. There are also, comparable, sealed speakers, no ports. SVS says, that the sealed speakers are better for music, more accurate, for this; and that, the ported speakers go a little deeper, are better for use with movies, sound effects. I say, acquire a big place, buy all of these speakers, try them, see which one that you like, best! 😄😁

[@timleelim9930]

I openly admit I am baffled by all this.

[@blekenbleu]

Bob Carver's Amazing series crossed dipole tweeters and mids to sealed woofers and still sound good to me.

[@gstanley75]

In 1978, Bob Carver with his company Phase Linear designed and sold open baffle dipolar speakers called the Andromeda, later the Phase IIIs. They have nice neutral grill covers on both sides, about 60" tall by 20" wide by 5" thick with the grills. They came with a four cubic foot subwoofer that crossed over at about 100hz. They sound very impressive when properly positioned. You did need a high WAF because of their size and need to be about 3-5' out from the back and side walls. They also had Carver's Sonic Holography circuit to enhance the imaging, which I found to be touchy and usually not worth the trouble. I have a restored pair and think they compete with some of the best today. Cost in 1978 was $1,900, about $10K today. There is a small group who have babied and restored these and you almost never find them for sale because those who have them love them. Competition today would be Magnapan 20.7 or PS Audio model 30 for sound and imaging.

[@stephensams709]

I still have a pair of Carver AL-III Loudspeakers that I bought in "95." I have totally rebuilt the crossovers with much better parts and got rid of the bipolar electrolytic caps and they sound awesome. The only drawback, is that they are power hogs, but I have a lot of power on tap to handle that. Amazingly enough, I had never heard of the Phase Linear speakers, but would love to hear them.

[@bossunimportantstuff]

Paul mentioned the possibility of using a 2.1 set up as being a workaround for the limitations of "traditional" open baffle set ups. I agree and can share my experiences. For frequencies of ~130 Hz and above no baffle is needed. I find a "no baffle" speaker works better than an "open baffle". Bass is better handled by a dedicated sub but what's new? this is the same for practically all speakers save for some of the monster floor stander set ups. Having a separate sub box means the stereo speakers can be placed in the room where is best for mid's and treble as opposed the compromise best bass position. It turns out the best spot for the no baffle stereo pair is 2 feet from the untreated front wall at a height of 4 feet above the ground. 6 x 9 three-way concentric drivers from automobile applications work perfectly well for the stereo pair as long as you have ~30 dB of DSP to adjust 1k to 6k. The trick to pulling this off is to get the 180 out of phase waves from the back of the stereo drivers to arrive at the he listener in a convincing time frame. Listener facing no baffle stereo speakers placed 2 feet from a wall will deliver a beautiful ~6 milli second delayed sound which tricks the ear into exaggerated depth and height perception. Also, a healthy dose of Atmos like effects are present from the radial sound propagating from the rear of the stereo cones bouncing around like in Walsh designs. Why diminish these desirable effects by using a thick baffle plate? / boggling. Also, tweeters need to be high. For mid and trebles, any speaker in a box is inferior to a no baffle speaker in terms accurately recreating voices and instruments. When is a string plucked do the sound waves that reach the listener only travel in one direction? A properly configured passive sub with concentric "no baffle" stereo speakers can outperform any boxed speaker setup I have heard.

[@RS265trophy]

what about an open baffle + sub ? any experience here ?

[@ssgeek4515]

On Christmas Day.A Merry Christmas to you and all the PS Audio Family.Thank You for sharing your wealth of knowledge.Here's to a more peaceful 2023. SS Uk

[@mobilehomemaven3859]

This guy leaves the office to wander the area where the people who do the work normally are...why not be intellectually honest? You dont work in this are of your shop.

[@eemians7026]

I am not sure what in the heck you're upset about here. No, this isn't my office. It is production in a company I own and built. I spend a good deal of my day in many of the departments at PS Audio. When filming, I move around on a Saturday from department to department for a few reasons, but mostly so my viewers don't get bored seeing the same things.

[@mjuman]

Hi Paul Happy Holidays, I have watched all your videos and find them very informative, I just watched your old video about class H amplifiers, I have a SUG-95 Technics system with SB-A55 speakers just like brand new in the box since 1996-97 only few hours of playing time, actually my brother sent me from USA to Pakistan through KLM Cargo but after some time I moved to US and the whole system is staying in the original Boxes at my house in Pakistan. Now my question is for all of you, as it is been long time do I have to change Capacitors on the Amp and Crossovers of the SB-A55 speakers.

[@Thode-R]

Merry Xmas to all audiofiles

[@LuxAudio389]

🎁👍🎅🤝🎄

[@geddylee501]

Have a great one!

[@BruceCross]

I wouldn't dismiss OB, since good and bad speakers exist within every speaker type. Every speaker design has strengths and compromises. Buyers have different priorities and budgets.

[@brooklynbummer]

I have Martin Logan Areias I speakers and with subwoofer, sound great. The openers of these speakers is amazing.

[@joelowens5211]

It comes down to a function of TIME for your hobby. I do not have records not because of cost but TIME. I simply do not have time for all of that. If the speakers need the perfect room and are very sensitive to any changes they might not be for a lot of people. Definitive Audio back in the 1990's had some awesome front and back speakers. For the money they were amazing. Looks like still around today but got bought out. When companies take over good brands you have to watch out for (crapisizing). They take a good name and then start making cheap crap to increase profits and hope most do not notice. Breyers ice cream is an example of that today. Doesn't taste at all like when I was growing up. Another company bought it and now a junk brand at least to me.

[@AllboroLCD]

Figure out a way to minimally get the FR speaker line assembled in the US guys!

[@Davidkxf]

I love my Ripole subs

[@philipslighting8240]

Emians were Mad About open baffle speakers !!!

[@dancomiskey2101]

Wife Acceptance Factor? Marry a girl like Maggie May!

[@ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣΣΤΑΘΑΣ-γ2κ]

Very nice

[@mrb.5610]

Try a pair of stacked Quad ESL-57s if you want the ultimate 'open sound' ! A bit bass light but they simply don't 'sound' like loudspeakers !!

[@glenncurry3041]

With the Decca Ribbon Tweeter?

[@sudd3660]

well, technically all baffles have to be open to fit the drivers.

[@ronnieborg9210]

Happy New Year

[@googoo-gjoob]

0:02 Proper sentence structure is a lost art.

[@NeilDSouza7]

Thanks for the explanation Paul ... I'm still baffled !!! 🤣🤣🤣

[@garysmith8455]

Martin Logan has rid the issues spoken of here, a LONG time ago. The Masterpiece series are still the flagship models and the integration of passive and active forward and rear firing woofers works extremely well. Lots of effort was put into melding the electrostatic and dynamic drivers to work harmoniously together. Joe V. designed the single point xover and they are named after him. If you have not heard these in a GOOD room, you need to check them out. My local dealer has the flagship Neolith in one of their three listening rooms, and it is time to schedule an appointment to hear them 🙂

[@lostandfoundsounds]

Indeed--I lusted after MLs since the late 80s when I first heard the CLS-IIs at a local dealer. But it took me 33 years to finally get a pair of MLs, a much newer model of course. One thing I notice at AXPONA is that few of the demos give their speakers justice--usually it's poor quality or mismatched electronics. The ESL 15As I heard in two separate rooms a few years ago. The room with the McIntosh stack was harsh sounding yet, just down the hall, the same 15As with a Constellation stack had that "magic." And yeah, I'm a bit biased, but if I had the coin, PSA's FR30s and FR20s sound amazing, and I think it's the fast ribbon drivers that give them the same colored and "boxless" quality that I'm so used to with the stats. And I found that many of my other favorites at this year's AXPONA were also using ribbons.

[@garysmith8455]

@@lostandfoundsounds Great reply, thanks! My Classic 9's paired with the Dynamo 1600x subwoofer (with room correction) are powered by all Parasound gear. A system my dealer put together. Not too much $$$, but great sound!

[@3dimensionsofmusic3D]

Merry Christmas 🎄 Paul. Thanks for your time and efforts. That goes for your employees 2. Greg

[@jareknowak8712]

Open baffle - never more.

[@listeningto8371]

?

[@jareknowak8712]

@@listeningto8371 I had it in the late 90s or early 00s - it requires a lot of sacrifices, it has nothing to do with faithful reproduction, but rather with building impressions.

[@listeningto8371]

@@jareknowak8712 I have no idea what any of that means. Late 90's, probably not open baffles at their best anyway. By the way, it has everything to do with faithfull reproduction.

[@marcbegine]

Merry Christmas to You, Paul and the PS Audio Octave Records Family, keep on the good Work

[@Hardwayistheonlyway]

I bet they're pretty good outdoors as a way to avoid a cabinet colouring the sound with certain resonant frequencies. I would also be super interested to hear a sound system with enough speakers and cabinets, each tuned to resonate at a perfect pitch with the whole system covering at least a few octaves. Impractical pipe dream or perfect sound? I guess resonance is less desirable at certain frequencies too? Perhaps just because it's rarely in tune with other resonances?

[@Crmsnraider]

...Just what I wanted to see. Id literally typed it in. *thumbsup*

[@hugobloemers4425]

Merry Christmas, Paul.

[@ThinkingBetter]

I like to be loyal to how studios master the audio in terms of intended room ambience. I’m not aware of any studio that is mastering music with a lot of incremental room reflections in the studio setup that I should try to copy. Rather, a lot of music consumption is through headphones, earbuds and desktop speakers nowadays and playing the music with rear wall reflections in some large room is not what is intended.

[@richardsmith2721]

Is Bose considered a bipolar speaker?

[@georgemartinezza]

it is a tripleside reflex over built in

[@davidfromamerica1871]

I think he might be looking for an inexpensive and easy way of making a DIY project speaker system. Basically you just need a board, cut holes in it and screw the speakers on the boards. There are lots of DIY KZbin videos showing just that type of speaker system. People “assume” “anyone”that writes or e-mails Paul is an “Audiophile” that has $25,000 in pocket change to fork out for FR-30’s, $3,000 for speaker and power cables, $4,000 power conditioner, and a $30,000 record player. 😀😳🙄

[@georgemartinezza]

@Douglas Blake if I don't have complex and sophisticated audio equipment /system: can I be audiophile? if I have knowledge and some experience in audio without High Fi /High End audio system: can I be audiophile? if I have dedicatd room, very sharp and high quality big screen, confortable seats and a very good specialized 11.2 Ch audio: am I cinephile?

[@georgemartinezza]

@Douglas Blake I agree. maybe like "gamer" - when anybody thought playing Mario and Double Dragon and so. while having a very good and high quality audio is the freedom to listen with precission and fine waves, or make a party with speaker ampliff and lights that I would not do with a High End system. that's why different car for different purposes, maybe the name or tag is the stereotype.

[@jasontimothywells9895]

I'm referring to Danny from GR research by the way 🥂