The woofer cone materials between the PS Audio aspen FR30 and FR20 are different. Why?
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@crackyflipside Жыл бұрын
I would love to watch a series of videos talking about the speaker design!
@MaterLacrymarum Жыл бұрын
The main difference is, I can't afford the most expensive ones and likely won't ever be able to do so. The lower range one is also more than I can afford. Still, they look good in videos. :)
@stjernholmreviews Жыл бұрын
As Always, so great stuff Paul! I am really excited about this construction, WOW! Will love to review them during this year on my channel.
@ThinkingBetter Жыл бұрын
I like the FR10 optimized for flexible placement of one or two excellent PS audio subwoofers.
@jkwhtsll4 ай бұрын
I am missing something (but not FR’s, I have both FR20 and FR10). If I have a source of power limited to, say, 40 watts, I should get the same volume of air motion (sound) regardless of how many speakers (of, course, to a first approximation, presuming each speakers output is linear with applied power).
@brandonburr4900 Жыл бұрын
Paul. So would 4 of those lower mass woofers in the fr20 improve the performance if used in a fr30? Thanks!
@cbrunhaver Жыл бұрын
No, the FR20 woofers require a larger box (per woofer), so wouldn’t work in the FR30 design as-is.
@Stan_the_Belgian Жыл бұрын
This also means the f3 is higher I would guess
@cbrunhaver Жыл бұрын
No, these have a softer suspension and lower BL (because the aluminum coil has fewer turns), so the f3 is the same. Sensitivity is about 1 dB less than an FR30
@JoeJ-8282 Жыл бұрын
@@cbrunhaver Thanks for that clarification Chris! Directly from the man himself! Lol!... That's a good thing here because us "techie nerds" want to know the actual facts, not just assumptions made by someone who doesn't REALLY know the how and why of how these speakers are designed, so kudos to you for clarifying this! (Paul is right, in that he really should let YOU do all of the videos about the specifics of this new series of speakers, since you are the primary designer of them! Right?)
@jkjome4095 Жыл бұрын
If the motor structure to these woofers is the same (FR30/FR20) but the cone is half the mass (FR20), would that give the edge to the FR20 in its ability to reveal bass texture, detail and decay ("faster" more revealing bass)?
@googoo-gjoob Жыл бұрын
i wouldve assumed it gave the 20 a fighting chance to mimic the 30s output.
@jareknowak8712 Жыл бұрын
Yes, if the membrane under the load behaves similarly to the "30". Apart from the difference in the speaker, there are also differences in the casing, as far as i can see. If You are looking for bass like this, look for speakers in sealed boxes.
@tacofortgens3471 Жыл бұрын
Are the magnets and windings the same if so, yes it will come close
@BetterISupposeYeah Жыл бұрын
So does that make the FR20 a better value speaker than the FR30
@larrygaines746210 ай бұрын
Very good explanation
@edd2771 Жыл бұрын
Hmm. This answer begs more questions. If, other things equal, a low mass cone is preferable, why didn’t the FR 30 use them already? If not, why not just use the “better” aluminum in the FR 20 and stipulate that it’s a lower efficiency speaker? Even though the FR 20 is “small” compared to the FR 30 it’s still a large speaker and should produce ample volume in most average rooms compared to most bookshelf and small tower speakers on the market, and in the unlikely event you need a bigger amp to drive the better cones so be it. Something doesn’t add up here.
@dlmp70 Жыл бұрын
I was thinking the same thing! It doesn’t add up for the reasons you state.
@guillaumeleclerc3346 Жыл бұрын
They use the same tweeters and midrange and their efficiency is not getting divided by 2. Therefore they would have to pad them down in the crossover. I assume they want to save cost by mass producing the same crossover for their whole range of speakers
@fabieneldridge3414 Жыл бұрын
Would love to hear them in person .
@user-ge9rw6ug3c8 ай бұрын
What I don't get it is when the audiophiles are buying expensive vibration isolators for their subwoofer, speaker stands, speakers, amplifier, turn table .... and here the big, medium, and small are rattling together in one enclosure.
@donaldleo3448 Жыл бұрын
Will you be introducing an active FRxx speaker ? Since PS Audio has many good amps already.
@Justwantahover3 ай бұрын
What if you put 4 carbon sandwich woofers in the larger speakers? 😅
@scheme39 Жыл бұрын
Is the woofer section sealed off from the midrange and tweeter? Just curious about the design choices made for the FR20. I know the FR30's two box design ensures that the woofers are in their own sealed box.
@Channel-cm7yc Жыл бұрын
You bet it’s sealed off.
@dougporcaro Жыл бұрын
This does leave open logic that FR30's could resolve higher (in addition to the obvious extra power / presence with 2 more) with carbon cones unless there's just something about how aluminum sounds that doesn't show up on the graphs and charts. Or else, despite 50% more mass, the coil is that much more powerful/accurate.
@yellowwducky8 ай бұрын
Kinda was my first thought as well - if they are 'better' why not have them in the flagship and have it even easier to drive at a given power level. I suspect there is some other tradeoff going on with respect to peak output or something else.
@Channel-cm7yc Жыл бұрын
Man…that is a sexy loudspeaker!
@janinapalmer8368 Жыл бұрын
I'm not sure if I'll buy that ... what's the difference between efficiency and sensitivity?
@PSA78 Жыл бұрын
I have to wait for the FR0.5 😂
@albertleung3690 Жыл бұрын
does the back has the +/- adjustments like the FR30 also? I heard 1 KZbinr after he heard the speakers in the show, which we both know not very accurate, they are on the laid back side (btw I prefer rather than aggressive).
@Acura1NSX8 ай бұрын
They may sound good, but there's one problem here. They look upside down and they have zero WAF.... Did you guys at PS audio ever factor that in, LOL???
@kdomster9141 Жыл бұрын
Would FR10 have same mid and high drivers and single woofer and radiator while being less tall than FR20 and 30? Sounds like FR10 could be a better match for most living rooms ?
@stonefree1911 Жыл бұрын
I think I'm prolly an FR-10 level guy, but the 20 is tempting....
@INeedsMoneys Жыл бұрын
FR0.1 🥲
@heywoodjablome5630 Жыл бұрын
How much do you think they're gonna cost in Australia, when available here? Would I benefit from hunting some Genesis II's instead, at the right price?
@RandySmith-iz1ml Жыл бұрын
So, in summary the FR20 is able to play to the same loudness as the FR30 with the about the same amount of watts, is this correct?
@adriantatum167311 ай бұрын
Paul, at this point, when is the FR10 scheduled to make an appearance?
@alexisbirungi1745 Жыл бұрын
FR30 should have been called the FR40. I wish I can one day afford it
@CobraChamp Жыл бұрын
I would imagine, individually, the woofers for the 20 are more expensive than for the 30?
@keithmoriyama542110 ай бұрын
Then why not use the same composition as the FR20s
@hiviman Жыл бұрын
so arguably with a subwoofer the FR20 is a better speaker then the FR30 ?
@SrDelbioLima Жыл бұрын
You should make subwoofers as well, Paul.
@googoo-gjoob Жыл бұрын
theyre coming.....
@eemians7026 Жыл бұрын
Yup. On the road map for 2024
@albertleung3690 Жыл бұрын
how heavy is 1 of these?
@Channel-cm7yc Жыл бұрын
You drop on your toe it’s gonna hurt heavy 😅😅
@michelcouture7026 Жыл бұрын
Why not lower the mass in the fr30 you would get a more sensitive speaker easier to drive?
@hoth2112 Жыл бұрын
The primary trade off for higher sensitivity will be less bass extension down low.
@Roof_Pizza Жыл бұрын
Or maybe have an amp that has the balls.
@hoth2112 Жыл бұрын
@@Roof_Pizza sure, but that's a different discussion altogether.
@Roof_Pizza Жыл бұрын
@@hoth2112 If you're gonna have a ~$20k speaker amps shouldn't be an issue. If it is an issue them maybe buying that wimpy tube amp wasn't such a great idea after all.
@hoth2112 Жыл бұрын
@@Roof_Pizza again, this is a very different discussion than what I was talking about.
@Roof_Pizza Жыл бұрын
Tweeter height is very different on both, I guess it doesn't matter as much as they say afterall
@jareknowak8712 Жыл бұрын
The "whistle" is the easiest to locate (obviously by ear) and the most directional.
@howardskeivys4184 Жыл бұрын
So, forgive my ignorance Paul and lack of audio engineering knowledge, but, if the composite materials used in the construction of the woofer cones of the FR20 are twice as efficient as the material used in the construction of the woofer cones in the FR30, would it not make good sense to employ that same, double the efficiency, cones of the FR20 in the FR30? Making the FR30 speakers even more efficient.
@Paulmcgowanpsaudio Жыл бұрын
In a vacuum, yes. What you're missing is that the goal is to match the woofer output to the midrange and tweeter. In the FR30, we have the luxury of using 4 woofers in a larger enclosure to do that. We didn't have that to work with in the FR20 and thus had to come up with another solution. What the FR20 sacrifices is that it won't play as loud but, since it's designed for smaller rooms, that's ok.
@Technical_Audio Жыл бұрын
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio plus, the heavier cones in the FR30 result in a lower natural resonance (fs) of the FR30 drivers than the FR20, all else being equal. Depending on other design parameters the FR30 should go lower in the low bass.
@howardskeivys4184 Жыл бұрын
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio 👍🍻
@montynorth3009 Жыл бұрын
Not sure why the woofers are so near to the floor and distant from the other drivers.
@Roof_Pizza Жыл бұрын
Drivers interacting with the floor. I prefer that to stand mounted speakers.
@RennieAsh Жыл бұрын
They are probably crossed over at a frequency where the distance doesn't need to be tiny
@carlosoliveira-rc2xt Жыл бұрын
You could have padded down the mid and tweeter. I think a consideration is real price would be too similar. Often there is next to no difference between two speakers in the same series. Example: Infinity Kappa 400 vs Kappa 600, same tweeter, same midrange, 8" woofer vs 10" woofer, virtually same footprint. I mean why even bother? Price difference to manufacture was probably $50 between the two. You have to make it appear you're getting something significant by buying the flagship. Different woofers, not just fewer, would do it. Marketing is always in the mix.
@sudd3660 Жыл бұрын
interesting, so for that frequency those woofer plays at, what sonic differences or power handling are there for the light vs the heavy cone woofers?
@hoth2112 Жыл бұрын
Typically, lighter materials allow for better transient detail like "texture" to come through, especially in the higher frequency ranges of the woofers, but you may lose some of the impact & extension at the bottom end. It's why some people prefer the sound of paper woofers over the stiffer aluminum or poly woofers.
@geddylee501 Жыл бұрын
@@hoth2112 no lack of detail in my aluminium driver, would recommend
@sudd3660 Жыл бұрын
@@geddylee501 i did some experiments on a 10" aluminium woofer i have, it sounded great with a 2000hz lowpass. its a heavy subwoofer cone .
@geddylee501 Жыл бұрын
@@sudd3660 I see, mine's a full range driver so more delicate
@rorybuszka2215 Жыл бұрын
More likely you won't hear a sonic difference. Either the rohacell or the aluminum cones will operate as an essentially "perfect" piston (without break-up) in their operating range, which is governed by the crossover. The aluminum cone is just slightly heavier. The resonance of the driver will change as a result of the change in mass, unless the suspension components are also changed. If the suspension components were not changed, then the resonance may be a bit higher. Does this mean less "deep" bass? Well, it depends on enclosure tuning (volume and passive radiator mass), but I think the F3 point of the system could be expected to be a little bit higher. This means that part of the FR30's value proposition would include slightly deeper bass. But would you hear a "significant" difference? Unless the F3 moved upward by more than 1/3 octave, probably not, unless concert bass drums and ultra-low synth bass are your thing.
@davidfromamerica1871 Жыл бұрын
How loud do you need it..? Until your ear drums rupture. The speakers come with a warranty. The warranty doesn’t include hearing damage. 😀
@tn9274 Жыл бұрын
Maybe if there is FR-00, I might afford it. just a big might.
@normrubio Жыл бұрын
Why do you put the amps on the floor? Seems like bending over would be a pain. Why not elevate your electronics a bit?
@Roof_Pizza Жыл бұрын
So you don't hurt yourself lifting them. My amp is heavy (63 lbs/29 kilos) but nothing like some monsters out there.
@Luis-Tesla Жыл бұрын
La respuesta es el Precio
@supes323 Жыл бұрын
I can only afford an FR-01 😢😂
@kdomster9141 Жыл бұрын
Hi Paul, so if FR20 is quite sensitive for such large speaker can it be driven by a meaty 150Wpc power amplifier to it's full potential ?
@b.powell3480 Жыл бұрын
Hi there, this isn't Paul, but I would like to think that, yes !, you can, however, I believe that the woofer voice coils are the same size and windings. The cone material is very light, compared to the aluminum cone material, so by reducing the weight by about half, the woofers are going to not work as hard, thusly, produce more bass output for a given wattage, I surmise that the audio techs tweeked the crossover network for the woofers to compensate for the lighter cones !, having built many systems myself, I hope this info helps. Just one caveat, make sure to check the maximum power handling of the speakers, you don't want to burn them out !
@heywoodjablome5630 Жыл бұрын
@@b.powell3480 I'm sure Paul said that the individual speaker performance was increased to compensate for the lesser number of speakers, thus keeping the 20's performance similar (but not entirely equivalent) to the 30's.
@b.powell3480 Жыл бұрын
@@heywoodjablome5630 If I remember, Paul said that they took 2 woofers out and redid the cone material for the other 2 woofers, and the ones they upgraded looks to be shorter in height
@scarabeo500gt Жыл бұрын
Down on your knees Paul? - Bowing to the FR20's...
@Novilicious Жыл бұрын
Where is the center channel dear sir?! Pray tell us
@artyfhartie2269 Жыл бұрын
Built in the US by American workers benefiting American economy. Not shareholders pockets
@tm55555 Жыл бұрын
More like made in china and imported!
@artyfhartie2269 Жыл бұрын
@@tm55555 You mean like Klipsh does with some of their mass produced loudspeakers to boost profits and dividends? Sucks.
@hoobsgroove Жыл бұрын
Yes is a leak invention the sandwich driver, best 15-in drive you can get better than altec
@RennieAsh Жыл бұрын
Many have stiff surround problems though with the age of them these days.
@hoobsgroove Жыл бұрын
@@RennieAsh yes could be right, you could apply some silicon oil, or cut out the surround and put in a foam surround. Another process might work go around with a brush with methylated spirits and immediately afterwards go around with a rubber cement same stuff as a bicycle inner tube patch glue
@antoniojoseandreomartinez9710 Жыл бұрын
Like
@flargosa Жыл бұрын
How much will the FR20s sell for?
@Roof_Pizza Жыл бұрын
99.9 % of us will never see them in a customers home so it doesn't matter anyway. BTW, too much.
@Sebwolf54 Жыл бұрын
In non freedom currency it’s 24,500€ a pair
@googoo-gjoob Жыл бұрын
website, sheeesh
@hom2fu Жыл бұрын
i heard ball park of $20,000 or 19,995 usd. cannot afford it anyway
@ACM1000000PT Жыл бұрын
come on guys that dark grey looks bad... why not the shiny mirror black?
@bevrek Жыл бұрын
Don't tell me, 11. Bring back Chris.
@banginghats2 Жыл бұрын
I thought you were praying to the speaker Gods at one point.