Pulling Trees Down With Rope

Describes basic techniques for pulling trees down. Provides insights on rope selection and addresses some of the highly variable cost factors.

[@robertford8476]

Man, I can't emphasize enough how much I love it when You-tubers nerd out on a specific topic, most videos are pretty worthless, this guy is outstanding!

[@dexterheavner1745]

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[@reggienone966]

"Not only would we be out $12 we would have an angry pully coming back at us trying to get even." Excellent Terry! My style of presentation both as a student and as an instructor. Great video and far superior in the explanations than 95% of the other "instructional" videos around.

[@wldavis1965]

Terry, it looks like sending private messages is no longer supported on KZbin, so here is a big public “thank you” for this video series! I have firewood for a long time but didn’t know what I didn’t know about felling until watching these. I watched the whole series on felling and went back multiple times to watch the segments on notch and hinge implementation and on how to compensate for lean. Today, I felled a 105-foot leaning ash that was near a house and surrounded by large red oaks that I didn’t want to damage. I anchored it with an appropriately strong line to another tree, tensioned the line with a heavy duty cable puller, used a vee notch, did a plunge cut to implement a hinge that was larger on the side away from the lean, trimmed out a trigger, wedged it up, and them released the trigger for a well-controlled fell that went exactly where I wanted it with zero drama. Your videos gave me everything I needed to do this confidently. Thank you!

[@terryhale9006]

Great! Nice work.

[@mb2308]

This is a great video...Thank you for taking the time not only to film it, but also to explain how and why it happens.You Sir, are a natural born teacher.

[@terryhale9006]

You're being generous. Thanks.

[@gr8dvd]

Nope, accurate... you're being modest!

[@Ayeooh]

Terry, thank you so much for your videos. Your knowledge of the technical aspects of tree work is amazing and I am very appreciative of you sharing your knowledge for free. I have learned alot thus far and will continue to learn more from your channel, thanks again!

[@terryhale9006]

Thank you, Adam!

[@wvbonbonqueen]

This is how my husband takes trees down and we love the after effect. No stumps to remove, just clean them off as the tree is down, and put the dirt right back into the holes the falling tree made. Really works well and not nearly as much handling of the tree. What a great video! Too bad most folks won't do it that way, from fear mostly, but lack of experience is also a factor too. Thanks for showing it, explaining it and sharing your knowledge.

[@terryhale9006]

BBQ. Sorry, I thought I had responded, but it must have gotten lost. Yes, I love not having a stump left over to navigate the mower around. That particular location is now supporting a lovely crop of Day Lilies and one struggling young MacIntosh apple tree. Not a problem with the soil: my wife just doesn't want me cutting down other trees to let the apple tree get the amount of light it needs. (Poor little tree is probably asking if this is some kind of a cruel joke.)

[@yeezusybarra]

Im 20 year's old been cutting trees with my father for 5 year's & we've always used theses techniques. Glad to see someone explaining this more in depth.

[@terryhale9006]

A nice father-son activity. Keep him safe.

[@alexandrevaliquette1941]

Made long time ago.. still useful today! I'm a whitewater rescue instructor and I was lazy about the math. You just saved me some time! Thank you for sharing

[@terryhale9006]

I'll hope the strainers stay out of your streams.

[@johanlindeberg7304]

Thank you. Your advice could save lives.

[@PikaPetey]

This is the pully tutorial i needed!! Thank you! This explains compound pullys so well!!

[@wilheys.6224]

Wow truly the best felling tree instructions. Thank you sir!

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks, Wilhey!

[@scatoutdebutter]

Great info presented in an enjoyable and professional manner!

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks Robert!

[@gordonpeden7432]

Thank you so much, I've learnt a lot of stuff I'd never realised I was ignorant about. Love the dead pan; "If this happens you will have an angry pulley coming at you trying to get even."

[@terryhale9006]

Thank you, Gordon!

[@larrythompson2967]

I have been doing this exact job for about half a century. I use a length of 1/4" steel cable and a small cable come along, side pull is only used if I need to steer the direction of fall. Works very well!

[@243WW]

Fantastic bit of info and very interesting working out the physics of it all.

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks. Just hoping I can help at least one person somewhere avoid injury or property damage.

[@jameswistman7479]

the vid is terrific, and the Comments also add to the information. some folks like to quibble, and in that quibbling, some finer points are surfaced for everyone's benefit. well done.

[@johnsonjrharold]

Your great! Thanks for helping me, not get myself injured!

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks Igo. That's my goal.

[@michaeldougfir9807]

Amazing video! While some of this is far above me, we did learn a bit of it from Percy Bagby. He repairs and installs large diameter wire rope on chair lifts, gondolas and similar things. He told about the deflection of the wire, which he has to deal with concerning each gondola car, each chair lift chair, with their capacities, etc. He made it all seem so simple. So it gave me an appreciation for what you are saying here. I'm bookmarking this video so I can return for additional info now and then.

[@SpenserRoger]

Dude Terry you really nailed this presentation. It's so mezmerizingly direct and well thought out it has a sort of majestic originality to it.

[@terryhale9006]

Opinions vary. Thanks much for yours.

[@eukaryon]

Your explanations are appreciated very much. I have learned how to do many things safely, and decided what things NOT to attempt.

[@bdm408]

As an Electrical Engineer and also a Landscaper, I greatly appreciate this video!!! Awesome job my friend!!!

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks! Great to hear from a fellow engineer.

[@jamesdixon2860]

Finally a detailed video. Thank you.

[@mannishboy17]

Thank you for making such an awesome video.

[@cryblood55]

A great arborist, an even greater deadpan comedian... thanks for these videos!

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks, but I don't have nearly the breadth of knowledge needed to be an arborist. Wish I did.

[@jeffreyhall4946]

Thanks for making these videos!

[@duubtuub3071]

Terry, I'm afraid you're never going to be a movie idol. BUT you are one-of-a-kind in providing the information you do on the internet. And that ain't nothin. The forces in logging CAN be understood mathematically. Thanks for investing so much time for an audience which may take some time to assemble and appreciate. You helped me understand why-in-the-world my first leaner was so hard to take down with wedges! I wore myself out trying to lift a massive weight by pounding in my cute little plastic wedges with my 3# maul...

[@terryhale9006]

I can just about picture that. I tend not to use wedges much, opting instead for some variety of pulling down. I have a back leaner I need to take down in the next few weeks and will try it with wedges-only, just to explore where the reasonable limit may be on their use.

[@bengunn3698]

Very informative thanks for taking the time to put it on...

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks Terry.

[@billk6494]

Awesome videos, I shared this one on my Google Plus page.

[@jasonriley6149]

12:30 Well then, I guess I'm a professional electrician, plumber, lumberjack, doctor, carpenter, and mechanic. :) Seriously though, thanks for this video. I can see it REALLY coming in handy if I need to take down a tree that could hit a building. Probably better than my "that's a pretty thick rope, it'll be fine" approach!

[@JG-tk7ov]

Many people would do well to take in what you teach. Thanks for the video

[@willstewart221]

Enjoying your videos. I was a marginal student in my statics and dynamics classes! You must be a prof or practicing engineer. No one else would bother with stress analyses. Even with the idealized calculations, it is a good effort on your part to point out that there is more to it than just starting up a chainsaw. Got about 200 live oaks to clear. Some are huge. I'm cheating and have started with the little ones. This video is a great example of adding forces with a idealized frictionless pulley. :) At 71, I'm not climbing any trees though.

[@terryhale9006]

Will, Caught me. Yes. Practicing engineer. Hanging desperately on to 64, so I only have a few years of climbing ahead of me. With that many Live Oaks, I'm guessing you are probably someplace down south where you don't really need the firewood. If that is the case, that's a pity. Definitely a good idea to get the small ones out of the way first. Good luck with the big ones! Terry

[@philkohlmetz2052]

Thank you for this. Its truly helpful and very clear.

[@Press2Esc]

Finally a real engineer (vs a KZbin certified wannabe).. I was a chip designer. so not much trig and mechanical physics req'd for sub-micron wires & transistors... Besides, our "outdoor work" was camping, skiing, hiking, bicycling, snowmobiling, boating, etc., etc. My kudos to your excellent job with the video instruction Terry. By choice, I don't design chips anymore, but I've designed a few ad-hoc "systems" since, that always exceeded the clients expectations. Albeit you agree that the easiest way to get an engineer to do something they don’t really want to do was to tell them that it’s impossible or it cant be done!!! Continued success...

[@DEtchells]

Extremely clear presentation, I feel like I at least know enough now to know what sort of rope to buy :-)

[@Life_On_The_Edge]

greatly valuable knowledge. Thanks for the good content. We use your videos for our morning trainings. Hoping to keep seeing more great videos.

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks. That's very nice to share. I wish someone would make a nice series for new Groundies to view before they start working. I was tempted, but I don't think it's in me.

[@brianwurtzberger466]

Terry, thank you for the level of sequential detail you offered here.

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks, Brian.

[@steveperry1344]

thnx for the info, very scientific. i have lots rope, a couple sets of blocks, strap hoist and a chain jack and lots of saws from when i used to do tree work but now it's all gathering dust in my garage. i'm slowly giving the stuff away to some of the local guys, it's hard to part with stuff. i'm retired and no more line work or tree work for me.

[@himesjon]

This is freaking awesome. Ever offroader should watch it.

[@raybin6873]

I bought 1/4" diameter cable at Harbor Freight $14 ...100 ft length 2,400 lb capacity. Used a 2 ton winch ($21 Harbor Freight) attached to chains wrapped around tree trunk. *DRAPE A HEAVY BLANKET ON CABLES BEFORE TUGGING TO PREVENT INJURY IN EVENT A BREAKAGE OCCURS*

[@williamdertinger4434]

This is absolutely fantastic

[@terryhale9006]

Thank you, William.

[@thomastamir7109]

Check the pulley system used. Good for hauling something heavy out of the woods. Bear, moose, etc.

[@snakeinthegrass7630]

Terry Hale: Well presented!

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks, SIG!

[@congamike1]

That was great! Thanks

[@TreeBoi4Life]

Excellent!

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks TreeBoi. Love your videos. Part of the inspiration to get this old man up INTO the trees.

[@c2gsovermind]

love the diagrams!

[@robbiejk9613]

I knew a NASA Engineer who worked on the Apollo missions who has since passed away and he told me after all their math was done, they always subtracted 7% for accuracy. True story.

[@drewpayton3991]

When its one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. Id like to know every crew of jacks has a math guru with them. Best video on pulleys and rope types ive seen

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks much, Drew.

[@highstreetkillers4377]

If its like machining alot of people dont do the math and it bites them

[@TRICK-OR-TREAT236]

GREAT VIDEO. THANX 4 SHARING.

[@kramconley7972]

thanks, excellent; question, the knot that's used to secure the "main rope to the trunk"? thanks again

[@JDsModernMartialArts]

Well I couldn't get all that figured out but I learned I must have done good in the past with ropes and trees. ;-)

[@SmithJohnZ]

Thanks a lot for this excellent presentation very useful for me, My block is covered with tress and generally it cost $700 have a tree brought down because they are stringy bark eucalyptus trees. My neighbors are close by as well so I really have to be careful not to cause an a tree crashing onto their house.

[@terryhale9006]

You're welcome John. (Nice picture.)

[@joshlower1]

Your working for nothing

[@northerniltree]

Luke Mathers is correct about mechanical advantage. Two pulleys are needed to effect that double multiplication of force, with full effect being realized with 180 degree line returns. Also, it is incredibly optimistic to have a person hold, pull, and finalize the task of pulling the tree over. Always tie off your block(s) and tackle to a stationary object, such as another tree. Then, you don't look so silly when you realize you don't have the strength to do the job. Rigging is an art and serious business, if you have doubts about overcoming the physical resistance of the tree you are attempting to pull over, use a more forceful and secure method, or don't even attempt the pull at all. Control and safety are your first priority.

[@MrJoeblack9]

Great video sir!

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks, Joe.

[@AndreyKivokurtsev]

Very handy information.

[@hamstersniffer]

I am in AWE of this man's burly choice of vocation coupled with his incredible and nerdy scientific knowledge of his craft.

[@terryhale9006]

+hamstersniffer Don't let it out, but he's actually a civil engineer and computer programmer who always wanted to be a lumberjack.

[@hamstersniffer]

+Terry Hale HA HA! Oh my gosh Terry, I can so totally believe that. I say that as a warehouse logistician and part time computer programmer, myself. Always working it out on the slide rule. (not really, I'm not quite that old but close). I don't know if you've ever cut a tree or not but you are truly awesome.

[@terryhale9006]

Kindred spirits. We have 72 acres. I've literally been taking down trees since I was 8. (56 years ago.)

[@gayleenclayton6821]

I like to tie rags on the line like a kite tail to help slow it down if it breaks got to work with what I got

[@awalt26439]

I have occasion to do a lot of tree pulling this way or that way for the sake of safe falling and I would not dream of using rope for that purpose. I use 1/4" cable about 250 ft. cut into various lengths and some 1/4 " chain and a cable come along. With that material at hand I can exert enormous pressures on leaners and hung up trees and get the jobs done safe enough. I do value the advice you give in your videos regarding the stresses present in trees standing, leaning or hanging in abnormal situations. Thanks.

[@dalehammond1704]

Very scholarly and true. The wise will pay close attention to your instruction. Years ago I took down about a dozen trees around my place with a cheap electric power winch strapped to a tree and fixed with steel cable (3,500 lb), chainsaw and wedges. I really didn't know what I was doing but every tree fell where I wanted it. Average tree diameter was only about 24 inches so these weren't monster trees. Anyway, I don't recommend doing this the way I did.

[@terryhale9006]

Effort aside, sounds like great results.

[@sponge850bobette7]

Australien outdoor enthousiast’s off roaders always put a jacket or special protector at any point possible break point ie tackle,winch, Polly etc

[@icannbeinc6123]

Great information

[@davidwyby]

Terry, are you available for consulting? Thanks

[@TheDadPenfield]

Pulleys with a stretchy rope are extremely dangerous. I tried to use that to pull down a tree and redirect the pull. The rope holding the pulley broke and then the pulley shot out like a cannonball. I am very lucky it missed me. I now use three 30-foot straps and link them together. They have 10,000 pounds of working strength and will not break even when pulled with a tractor. They are not that expensive ($13 per 30-foot strap) and will not recoil if they did break. I attach a come along to the base of another tree and to the end of the strap attached to the tree I am pulling on. There are no concerns about flying pulleys and I can generate 2 or more tons of pull with a $45 dollar come along. Total cost = $84. This video suggests that you trust a man pulling on a rope to hold up a tree that wants to fall the wrong way and that man can generate 150 pounds of constant pulling force.

[@terryhale9006]

Rather than the video suggesting that you should trust a man pulling on a rope to handle a back leaner, I thought precisely the opposite was being conveyed: A stretchy, under-strength rope could be extremely dangerous. The video also references the Back Leaners video, which contains some fairly strong cautions about the risk of relying on someone trying to pull over a back leaner. Glad your pulley missed you.

[@chadgrant9256]

TheDadPenfield I totally agree I witness somebody trying to yank a stump out of the ground with a truck. He didn't have it tied to the stump good using a gigantic D ring on the stumps end. When it slipped off the stump stretchy rope sprung back and put the D ring dead center of his license plate ripping it from the screws, through the bumper finally stopping wedged in between the bottom of the bed and his spare tire. Looking back in a situation his rigging was very questionable.

[@smiley3012]

That is what equipment I have and was planning on using. I am glad to hear someone else has proven that it works. It just seemed a stronger and safer method.

[@georgebland9931]

So this exact method was my thought process too. I’m assuming that you’re running the second strap through the end loop of the first strap and sliding it all the way to the end so the two straps bind together, and more straps and so on and so forth? Or are you using clevices between the straps? I’m was thinking all sorts of ideas like 1/2” wire rope, but noticed that the WLL is less on that than say 4” polyester strap! The 4” polyester strap has a WLL of 5400lbs. I’m not sure that I trust the stated 9000lb WLL on those harbor freight 3” X 30’ polyester tow straps, but if its true, then that should be sufficiently adequate pulling capacity, especially if supplemented or double runs used? Maybe overkill, but I’m dealing with a very large 32” base 120’ tall dead ash tree which is close to my neighbors house. The plan was to use either large capacity come along, or a 10,000lb chain fall with 10’ working distance. I’m not sure how much “force” would be required to pull a large (non leaning) tree over, once notched. I guess I’ll go look for the authors other video, about using chain and etc… Lots of tree guys claiming they hook it up to a skidsteer or a truck with the bull rope and pull it where they want it to go. My anchor would be another dead ash tree (two) about 150’ away(both very stout). I was debating using a 300’ section of 4” polyester strap with a proper 4” strap ratchet (5600lb WLL), and pulling on that with the come along or chainfall. I really don’t know how much “force” is needed, but I can’t imagine it being in excess of 2000lbs! Very interesting points in the video on side pulls and the forces involved, snatch blocks etc. That’s another situation where I’d be going way in excess of limits. No way am I trusting a 650lb snatchblock at 600lb. To close to the limit for my personal comforts on that one… and I’m sure the example was to make a point only. Well done video, I learned a lot!

[@roberthumphrey1304]

I like stretchy rope with adequate strength because it has dynamic loading as the tree starts to move. With stiff rope you lose pull as soon as the tree moves.

[@mueckenhoeffer]

A very useful video which anyone clearing land should watch - I was about to commit many sins until I watched this video. And you managed it all without annoying music!

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks, The. Enjoy your new cleared areas!

[@vperezify]

It’s me or not but this Gentleman sound like a mechanic on a channel call Realfixesrealfast.Both really good teachers by the way. 👍🏽

[@jessesumrall2449]

I was really wanting too see you pull a tree down.

[@Fldavestone]

Very good info.

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks, Dave.

[@laverdadesmejor]

When I was young, my father and I took down several dozen trees using manila/hemp rope. Never had any type of synthetic then. He didn't have a degree in calculus or ever own a slide rule, yet all the trees landed where we planned, not on our truck, house or head like some of the videos on here. I guess Dad never met 'Hooke".

[@terryhale9006]

There's a lot to be said for good common sense and some experience.

[@ContantContact]

I have never seen an explanation of this before just now. BUT I have done about the same thing for years. I use log chains in the place of rope #1. I use a rope up the tree to pull the chain up and fasten it. I then tighten the chain with a come-along rated for that task., hooking the chains together after it is tight as a backup. I then use a polyester rope that has NO give (over 1 inch in diameter) and attach it to rope 1 with a very heavy pulley. One end of the #2 big rope goes to the base of a tree, through the big pulley, and back out to a tractor or a pickup truck. The length and side pull arrangement make it virtually impossible that the tractor or truck can be damaged. I don't play around and have never failed to make the tree go where I want it to go. I took down two that had a heavy lean over a pole barn without a problem. They were 90-100 ft tall at least. And though I am an engineer I don't do the math because I don't need to with this arrangement.

[@terryhale9006]

With experience, numbers merely confirm intuition.

[@thebertt]

Interesting piece -- there was an article I read recently detailing the mayhem inflicted by stretchy rope types on civic gatherings where they staged a tug-o-wars throughout the years.. wow, lost fingers, and hands even when the rope broke -- my takeaway from that was we needed to use a chain, it could still break I guess but w/o the stored energy damage.

[@terryhale9006]

thebertt Exactly.

[@josebenitez3732]

Very informative and great examples of mechanical advantage, the use of block & tackle and purchasing. You may wish to include that cordage (rope/wire rope) is and should be "dated", that is the date of manufacturer. Note: Cordage gets Old, even brand new on the spool! If you are climbing or placing life and limb on the line it is advised to know this fact as the load carrying capacity will be lost over time. As you have explained on the working loads of some these lines and rigs it should be stressed just how dangerous this work really is! NEVER STRADDLE A LINE. NEVER PLACE YOURSELF BETWEEN LINES. NEVER PLACE YOURSELF BETWEEN A LINE AND A HARD SURFACE. ALWAYS HAVE AN ESCAPE ROUTE. KNOW ALL THE WORKING LOADS AND LIMITS OF ALL YOUR EQUIPMENT! NOTE: Even small lines, in failure, can cause bruising, cutting of skin, breaking of bones, detachment of hands and limbs and even cause death. Be Safe!

[@terryhale9006]

All true. Do I hear your professional responsibilities speaking?

[@josebenitez3732]

Terry Hale Yes Sir and that of a mariner. Semper Paratus

[@SteffenPMeyer]

I really like the video. The use of pulley systems is interesting. If using 150# force on the ground is confusing, substitute 100# 13:12 image of Single Pulley, with 2 rope segments, gives 2X advantage 13:44 image of Double-Pulley (in rope series), with 3 rope segments, gives a 4X advantage By inference a Triple-Pulley (in rope series), with 4 rope segments, gives a whopping 8X advantage [Investing in a third pulley is perhaps not a bad idea Investing in a 4th pulley a Quad-Pulley system rigged as shown would give a whopping 16X advantage. If you have a single rope that is long enough and include a carabiner for each pulley in use, can use a single length of rope. Each taut rope segment can have a Doube-Figure-8 knot with a carabiner to hold the next pulley. This allows the loose rope-bight (not under tension) to hang to the ground and lay on the ground to the stump-trunk-anchor, where it is tied to the stump using a Clove-Hitch knot (strong on circular items, easy to untie). See the URL below with my thoughts and sketches. I created a note in Evernote, shared the note publicly at this URL: T/ENL: Pulling Trees Down With Rope EURL: www.evernote.com/l/AQjLM2yak0BKLaN9ypFeaEIUPRfBGp04SSM Version: 1A 2017\06\14 By: [e-mail] Very handy information if your chainsaw fails, but your helpers cannot return. Thanks very much.

[@djsantiago3904]

Steffen P Meyer waste of time, after 3 pulleys something will break. Either a rope, carabiner or pulley will fail, thats if the head of the tree doesnt snap out first. Just watch and learn more about what you’re doing before you hurt yourself or someone else.

[@someeric]

very informative video about ropes, thank you Terry. I look forward to learning how to remove a tree in my backyard with winch and chain. When are you going to make the next video in the series please?

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks Eric. I'm actually hoping to wrap it up tonight. If you haven't seen it, it sounds like you might want to watch my video on Stump Removal - Holistic Approach.

[@kirbydonoho5707]

you do stuff the hard way,i simply took 3 of those orange ropes you had ,then i braided them together and i have a 150 foot rope that can pull down most trees with 3 pully comealongs.19- 100foot trees in 7 hours on 1 acre.but yeah i also had at the time about 2 years logging with my aunt in texas.fun stuff ill tell ya.good video.

[@terryhale9006]

Kirby, What's the point of braiding three ropes together if you still have to use three winches? The hard work is still in cranking the winches. Can't argue with your success, however. Rigging the rope up into the tree, fastening to three other trees, and cranking down a hundred-foot tree every 22 minutes for 7 hours is incredible!

[@trixter4934]

Hi Terry- I love your informative tree videos! The diagrams and formulas are great. Can you share more information about the type of knot you would use in your hoist diagram for the rope that goes through the tree's crotch and attaches at the base? Also, when you attach a 2nd rope for a side pull, what type of knot would you use to attach the 2nd rope to the 1st? Thanks!

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks Trix. When you consider all the ways that knot elements can be combined, there are literally thousands of knot assemblages that could be used. The results can be classified into two important categories: those that will hold and those that will not. Obviously, you want to avoid building an assemblage that turns out to be in the first category. Within the category of those that will hold, there are two somewhat important sub-categories: those that will be easy to untie when you're done and those that will be hard to untie. If you include a square knot or a granny knot early in the assembly and that part of the assembly will tighten up, either of those two elements may become hard to untie. Using several half hitches around the standing line can make just about any messy assemblage of knot elements below it into a secure system. The best knot assemblages will be reliable, simple, and easy to untie. Two of the classics meeting these criteria are the Timber Hitch and the Cow Hitch. Several good videos of each are posted I definitely prefer the latter. Arborpod and the Climbing Arborist have posted the following: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aJrKn2CbfMyFpbM kzbin.info/www/bejne/mafNf4yueNJ8qMk In each case, rather than having the hardware, imagine the hardware replaced by the standing line going up to the tree's crotch.

[@trixter4934]

Thanks again! I wasn't sure if there was one single right knot for that specific job. It's good to know there are multiple knots to consider. Cheers!

[@obfuscated3090]

Excellent video. Ebay and Amazon are good sources for arborist supplies. For pulls I use the winch on my truck and professional snatch blocks designed for vehicle recovery etc. If you have that option it works very well. and all the (very well presented) rigging geometry examples in this video apply. I learned it after hurricane Hugo when my friend used his WWII vintage Dodge Power Wagon to preload and place heavy trees precisely. You can find the US Army rigging manual online for even more rigging examples.

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks Ob. That's a real veteran Power Wagon.

[@logmeindangit]

heh-heh-heh... he said "snatch" ...

[@pearlrival3124]

Thank you Terry Hale for the brilliant mathematical explanations. Since watching all your videos I've been in the market for chain, tow straps, rope, pulleys, etc. What do you think about dynema winch rope? I can get this for less than a dollar a foot. The elasticity is quoted as low, but I haven't been able to find any specifics. The only information I have is the breaking strength for 3/8" is 20,500 lbs. Whereas HTP's Average Breaking Strength for 5/8" is 14,400 lbs.

[@terryhale9006]

I can't claim any experience with the dynema for pulling. It seems like it would have some huge pluses over chain. The weight would be much preferred to lugging around the 100 pound buckets of chain I use for big jobs. One concern for me would be the longevity. With that pulling work, rope and especially chain tend to get dirty. That is not a problem for chain, but if sand and grit get into the fibers of rope, they may start cutting those fibers. One thing I like about chain is that you can choke it at any point you wish, so you can easily accommodate for varying distances between your anchor and your pulled object. It also make progress capture easier. My next winch may be a dynema, rather than a cable winch. I have had instances where the cable has pinched itself on the cable drum making it impossible to pull out by hand. Not sure if the dynema would do better or not.

[@CrimeVid]

This is a little like the way the guys cleared Epping Forest, Pull from the base of two or three trees to a reasonably accessible part of the tree to come down. Those guys used wire ropes and Tirfor winches sometimes a flying sheave mostly army surplus kit. They uprooted a huge number of big trees this way, clearing for housing.

[@terryhale9006]

Beats having to mobilize a huge bulldozer to deal with the big stumps.

[@kevinmason791]

Hello Terry thank you for making this detailed and informative video. I am not clear on what it takes to get the rope around tree to be pulled down. I noticed you mention using a throw bag in another video w/paracord. Is that useful to get a 1/2" polyester line around tree?

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks much, Kevin. It is very difficult to throw any heavy rope a significant distance up into a tree and over the desired branch or crotch. It is far easier to throw a light twine or string when it is pulled by a weight on the end. The string needs to be strong enough to pull the heavy rope all the way up over the branch and back down. The friction created when pulling the heavy rope over the branch can't be ignored. The string also needs to be pretty light and fairly thin. While you may have been able to give the weight a good velocity for its mission, the string will be resisting that with increasing effort as the weight flies higher and higher.. The resistance will increase as more weight of string is added and there is more air resistance. When I was a kid living in Korea, we actually had real parachute cord to use. I would say that that paracord was on the heavy and large side of what I would want to use as a throw line. Most hardware store should have spools of nylon or polyester string that would be both small enough and strong enough to make good throw lines.

[@kevinmason791]

@@terryhale9006 Thanks for clearing that up.

[@treetv79]

Thanks for.

[@williamwallace9620]

SK75 Dyneema winch rope also known as HPME synthetic rope is the way to go now.. most have less than 1% stretch and breaking strengths around 18,000lb for 3/8" and 34,000lb for 1/2" and can be obtained for $1/ft for 3/8 and $1.75 for the 1/2" I've seen a 1/8" one of these break and its not overly dangerous it doesn't really fly back too much and took more than a ton to break that one.

[@brianmedeiros417]

A ton of effort went into making this video.

[@SuperNomenClature]

please show your work

[@johnvee2644]

Terry, Great video and info! Thanks for taking the time to make us all smarter and safer! Question: I have a spool of "Muletape", rated for 1250 lbs. and very low stretch. Have you ever experimented with it? They also make it in 2500lb. It comes in 3000 foot rolls. Do you think it would be suitable/useful for tree-felling pulling?

[@terryhale9006]

Sorry, John. This is the first I've heard of it. If you feel like you can trust it for the claimed loads, then you can probably use it for loads under those limits. I assume those were working load limits. Not sure how the "tape" stands up to abrasion. You might need to keep an eye on potential deterioration due to UV, as well.

[@johnvee2644]

Thanks Terry for your quick reply! Muletape is very interesting stuff, seems like something you might be interested in playing with. It's polyester webbing, strong, light, low-stretch, and marked with a measurement at every foot. Its intended application is pulling heavy cable through conduit. It's made flat to reduce friction/cutting-in on interior conduit bends under heavy loads. And its cheap. You can get the 2500 lb. test in 500' to 5000' spools for about 6 cents a foot. Or any bucket truck you see will probably give you some. Most use it once and then discard it.

[@Sailor376also]

I strongly prefer a stretchy rope to pull,, nylon usually. Because,, Look at the pull at one second after the tree starts to move,, or three seconds.. At zero seconds the pulls can be equal,, at one second and the tree has moved its first three feet,, the static rope has no additional pull. If the tree wants to go somewhere else,, it is now free. If you have used a good nylon,, the pull at the same one second is still pulling,, it is still pulling at 3 seconds after the tree starts to move. I DO use a static rope when I am using a rope to act as a hinge,, normally a 80% plus or minus the direction of fall. So a well rigged fall, where the direction MUST be exact,, I may well use a dynamic rope (stretchy) in the direction of fall,, and a static rope (non-stretchy) at right angles to guide. Different ropes for different jobs.

[@terryhale9006]

Presumably, if you are using rope, you are actively pulling on the rope when the tree starts to move. If you continue to actively pull until the tree is committed to its direction of fall, no slack should develop. It is true that you can't get a manual winch to pull fast enough, but I would recommend against using a winch with rope. Not impossible, but it has to be a very strong rope to handle the pulls that a winch can generate.

[@Sailor376also]

I never 'pull' a tree. Trees will always win in any tug of war. About 1973 I was witness to someone using a Chevy to belay a fall. A presumably static rope was routed up and over the crotch of a tree to retain the fall long enough to steer it aside. The car ended up in the crotch of the tree, 10 plus feet off the ground. It was not even a whole tree,, just a major limb on a large front yard maple. There is no vehicle that can certainly guide a tree down short of a 75 ton Sherman tank. That 2 ton Chevy was tossed like a child's toy and looked like a crumpled tin whistle a second later. I never hand pull a tree either,, the puller, the man or woman who may be pulling is between a one ton (a small tree) and 100 tons directly at their person. Nope. Also, you cannot force a tree to do what you want. You can advise it, spin it,, play all kinds of tricks,,, but it is ALWAYS the tree that will decide. If the tree is a full leaner over the house,, you get a crane, a bucket, you climb,,, but you dismantle one bit at a time. For even a minor leaner,,, I can 'talk' the tree into maybe 90 degrees left or right. I HAVE spun, rotated trees nearly 180 degrees,,,, but that is not something that you can do even 50% of the time If a tree needs a helping hand to head in a safe direction, I get a line as high as is practical,, to the bole if a straight pull. Possibly to an off set branch if I am to spin the tree to guide it in. I use a large nylon,, my smallish ropes are 5/8" and I prefer braided to twist. (Twisted fiber ropes can get very 'squirrelly' under tension.). I tension the rope with block and tackle, or a come-a-long, or a three part trucker's hitch,,,, or some combination. The goal IS to stretch the rope, so that the pull continues for a long time after the tree has begun its descent. A static rope will only keep pulling for a very short time/distance. A static rope may only have a stretch % of 3 or 4 but a good nylon,, marine grade anchor rode, in the extreme, can stretch up to 40% before it is permanently damaged. I WANT a rubber band that keeps pulling. I agree with your cautions,,, I NEVER get in line with the rope under tension. 150 feet of nylon under 750 or 1000 pounds of pull will seriously injure. You do not touch it, you do not 'help' it in the middle. Good way to lose fingers. My belay rope,,, is a static line,,, nylon is useless as a belay line. Belays are set nominally 90 degrees to the desired fall. They can be set more than 90,,, maybe 10 or 20 degrees,, to swing the fall... or less than 90 to only come into play as a safety. I have worked within the last 12 months with extreme static lines, UHMWPE, 7 to 10 times stronger than steel and with less stretch than solid stainless rigging rod. Trees make you humble. The moment you think you have it figured out,,, "Its gonna fall right there. " You'll cut into it and find it hollow and headed straight for your truck,,, or you will 'know' it is going that way,, and it falls exactly the opposite direction. And the tree guys that I know , the old guys like me, they have all had the same humbling experiences. Young guys, women,, have loads of confidence,,,, but do it for 40 years,,, and that confidence is replaced with,, I 'think' it is going that way. The only one within the circle of fall is the cutter,, there are no trucks, cars, people, children,,, move the swing set and the doghouse. Cut the 200 trees for the Boy Scouts the week before they arrive at camp. Clear line to run, the the first moment it starts to move,,, you run. The rest don't get to be old.

[@terryhale9006]

In one of my other videos, kzbin.info/www/bejne/iHSbYYShm62VitE , I've included content that I hope will warn homeowners not to be overconfident about the ability of their vehicle to exert an adequate force.

[@Sailor376also]

Oh,, complete agreement. Vehicles, even large powerful trucks, are not powerful enough and the timing is never perfect And IF you have tied the tree rope high,, that gives maximum angle of force,,, the same force is lifting the rear wheels off the ground. Its a no win. I have seen one do it well. They did not do a direct pull. The pull rope was routed to a snatch block at the base of tree in line with the proposed fall. The vehicle was able to exert a level pull and at a safe angle to the fall line. Even at that,,, if the tree wants to go some other direction,,, the tree win win every time.

[@gregwhisenant4731]

I know this as an older comment but after watching this and your other videos about pulling stumps, do you like or recommend certain tech ropes as well, such as dyneema, in place of other kinds of rope?

[@terryhale9006]

I don't profess to being a connoisseur of ropes. When it's all said and done, it comes down to strength, stretch and diameter. At the extreme, UV resistance, heat resistance, rot resistance, and oil and chemical resistance can matter. as well.

[@sighpocket5]

Nice!!!

[@terryhale9006]

Thanks!

[@georgekiesel232]

Good video Terry. Question. I've noticed that you sometimes tie the rope you're using to pull the tree down at the base of the tree and the up and over the a limb. What is the advantage of this method over using a running bowline higher up?

[@terryhale9006]

Purely Retrievability. While you are unlikely to ever need to choose a different tie-in point, if your bowline is up around a branch 50 feet up, it's probably staying there until you get the tree down. Call it fear of commitment.

[@briargoatkilla]

89 people didn't realize that the pulley is on the load.

[@terryhale9006]

Ah! Current count. lol.

[@ColinRichardson]

Which way around is this? 8:54 did you call the number symbol (#) pound (lb) because you guys use it instead of writing LB, or did you use the number symbol here in the video because you guys call it pound? (this is the first time I've actually seen # actually meaning lbs)

[@Hukkinen]

1:25 Stiff rope for more force? - I feel this is a bit imprecise. The force and counter force are equal in both ends of the rope, I think, independently of the stiffness of the rope.. Perhaps you want stiff rope for high impact force, to snap the wood, while pulling? Thanks for great theory, though! Edit: No, you're correct. And I was wrong: The spring of the rope absorbs the force and releases it when it is freed.

[@lewy1]

3 wraps around the pole and the knot is really just to secure the tail, there is no tension on the knot.

[@northsneads3662]

Thats pretty fuckin interesting. It makes all the sense in the world. Yet simple and effective

[@lewy1]

@@northsneads3662 yes and you can control the release if you wanted to lower a heavy load.

[@northsneads3662]

@@lewy1 hot damn. Twould be a fool not to do this.

[@roadstar499]

the key is steady strong pull...don't start yanking it or things can go bad quickly.

[@johnnysparkleface3096]

I was wondering about using chains. Then at the very end, you said your next video will discuss that very thing. I'm definitely going to watch that, since I have some seriously strong chain. (2 x 11,300 working load chains)

[@terryhale9006]

If more than a tipping force is needed, I use chains almost exclusively.

[@georgebland9931]

@@terryhale9006 Out of curiosity… Why chains vs say the previously mentioned 3”X30’ polyester 9000lb WLL straps? And do you use a come along or a chain fall or motorized puller?

[@terryhale9006]

@@georgebland9931 At this point, it's really a matter of going with what I am comfortable with. I simply don't have experience with straps. Beyond that, I have two concerns that are probably unfounded. First, steel has very little elasticity and when it fails, (three times before I went to heavy gauges), it basically just drops to the ground. I would expect straps to behave much like rope and potentially snap back quite dangerously. Of course, if you buy a strong enough strap, you will be unlikely to be able to generate the forces to snap it. Second, you can get chain dirty and it is not a big deal. However, straps or ropes can get sand into the weave which will gradually wear/cut the fibers. Though not a concern, I like the way you can use a grab hook to fasten two chains together at any point along their length. I don't feel good about trying to clamp onto the midpoint of a strap.

[@mikerafone4736]

how about seeing tree come down?

[@logicsoundinc]

At the 7:00 mark, try using the trucker's hitch instead. It's a great knot.

[@terryhale9006]

A great hitch indeed. Unfortunately, I had over 100 feet of rope that I would have had to pull through the loop of a trucker's hitch. Additionally, the trucker's hitch only passes around the trunk one time, leaving the possibility for the rope to roll up the trunk when tensioned. If your anchor tree has a low branch to prevent the roll up the trunk, a trucker's hitch will allow you to apply nearly three times as much tension as the single pull I used. One drawback is that, when you tension a trucker's hitch, the rope will be pulled around the trunk, causing some abrasion of the rope and, depending on the tree, some abrasion of the bark.

[@kevinkinal9557]

Terry, This is beyond outstanding. Have you ever measured (or can you estimate) the force required to pull down a tree ... for example the one you winch down with chain in hte next video (or ideally a sense of force as a function of diameter)? Also do you have any thots on the ideal height (and or angle) from which to pull to max out the torque imparted at the base. I would imagine the higher up the tree the better until you reach the point that the tree will flex too much (my guess would be optimal height is 50% of tree height, and 45 degrees is optimal pulling angle (unless of course you could put a pulley in an adjacent tree to allow you to have a 90 degree angle of pull (and use your entire body wt). But what I am most interested to know is ... are we talking hundreds of lbs or force, thousands of lbs of force to pull down a sizable tree?

[@terryhale9006]

Kevin, You are correct that 45 degrees would be optimal. However, There will not be that much improvement between 30 and 45 degrees. The force needed to pull down a large tree is dependent on the tree and whatever you have done to cripple it, either by cutting its roots or sawing through the trunk. With one of my cable winches, I probably exert around 2500 pounds, which is going over its rated capacity. On two occasions, I insufficiently weakened the roots of a tree and my pull caused the trunk to crack. One was a big white pine, the other a medium sized red maple. Fortunately, I was checking progress and saw the cracks developing, so I didn't pull them down on myself with a catastrophic snap. On another occasion, I was trying to extract a large basswood and maxed out the tension in both winches, so I had to cut more roots. If you are cutting the tree down, it should take a lot less force, basically the force needed to pull it past vertical and the force needed to snap the hinge you've left. The required force should not be under-estimated for any sizable back leaner. It takes a bit of judgment to look at a tree from the side and decide which direction it is leaning. If you are cutting down a tree and having trouble getting it to pull over, you should NOT cut the hinge narrower. That is a common mistake that can be disastrous if the tree is not leaning precisely in the direction you want it to fall. Once you've crippled the hinge, the tree will take your direction of pull as no more than a suggestion.

[@kevinkinal9557]

@@terryhale9006 I can't tell how pleased I am to get a response You have been a bit of an inspiration for me for some time. Thank you so much. The best part about your response was the mention of cutting roots! This is because about a year ago I was out in the woods and was experiencing that all too familiar thought while making a back cut, that goes something like this "Hmm... This feels too dangerous, am I about to become a Darwin award winner?" followed by "Maybe I should I call OSHA and have them send out a film crew to document a great 'How NOT to' video" In that moment it occurred to me that there is no reason to be so close to death. There must be safer ways to fell trees. Esp since as a homeowner I am in no rush, I enjoy the mental workout of problem solving, the physical work out of manual labor, and there is no commercial interest. Suddenly the dozens and dozens of videos I had watched about felling trees and chainsaw technique (that largely presume speed or commercial interests are the priorities) all became largely obsolete. I wanted to find the safer ways. I thought of five things and one of them came after seeing a few wind felled trees. I noticed that the root systems spread out over the surface like an umbrella, all easily accessible form the surface.. and I thot. “AHA..maybe the best of the risk free ways to bring down a tree is from a distance where no harm can befall you is to cut the roots and pull it over”. My thinking is that much of the strength of the root system in comes from the dirt and the interplay with other roots (aka form of the root system), therefore roots can support the tree with much less mass than the trunk. Then I realized that the roots are really doing essentially nothing to support the downward force of the tree which is done by the ground, the roots are mostly giving lateral support which also requires much less mass (akin to guy wires on a tower - why cut the through the entire base of the tower when all you need to do is cut a few guy wires). IOW root cutting and pulling seems superior to me cuz 1) Much less cutting (aka easier) my wild guess is 25% -33% of the wood in the trunk cab be cut to pull down the tree. 2) More relaxing and less maintenance and headaches that come form running a chainsaw 3) More importantly, is the safety derived from not being so close to the tree when cutting, and the safety derived from the decreased rate of fall (at least initially). I have tried this on some tiny trees (1 in diameter) and some very small trees (3-4' diameter) and it was ridiculously easy and in fact required no saw, just a few strokes with a mattock. And was planning to start on larger trees, so to see you have done it on a huge tree means I am not crazy, and it works! Again I can’t tell you how enthused and thankful I am! Until your comment about cutting the roots, never really stuck with me that when pulling the tree over with chains there was no notch cuz in the earlier videos in the series you were talking about pulling done trees with notches, and I just assumed there was a notch we couldn't see in the video. Thanks again! Oh and any thoughts about how high up to attach ropes/ chain.. how important is height to enable us to get adequate foot lbs, or can we just attach it at arms length (8 ft or so for me) since we are using a winch and not relying on a truck or a couple of burly guys The idea of big forces makes me nervous so I would think replacing force with height is very important, but if additional height doesn't materially lower the forces we must impart it would be a waste to try to get the additional height.

[@TheSateef]

nice, thanks. i have a 8000 lb 1/2 Inch by 200 Feet 12 Strand Polyester rope and a 3/4 ton rope puller. doubles up with a pulley i should get about 3000lbs pull. i hope that's enough to pull my tree if i cut a notch and plunge cut first

[@terryhale9006]

I'll hope as well. It is tough to guess how much pull is needed. I'll hope nothing important is at risk if 3000 pounds turns out to not be enough.

[@fhuber7507]

Sand bags on the rope. They'll mitigate the snap-back if it happens. It doesn't take a lot per bag to make a big difference in safety. Even low stretch rope can have a tremendous snap-back.

[@terryhale9006]

Sounds like that should work well. Shouldn't even have to be that heavy.

[@MrHPT3]

I never knew all those loggers were out in the woods using slide rulers and calculus.

[@terryhale9006]

Heh, heh. Nope. Seat of the pants. Actually, a lot of the plantation logging involves big machines that grab and lift the whole tree. On steep slopes, loggers still die or are severely injured by trees that didn't do what the pants said they would.

[@umaxen0048]

This is how you get firewood or remove an entire tree, stump and all, when all you have is a rope and a truck. You also get the root section which burns 3x as long as regular wood.

[@waynerobinson2301]

Protective HT they are not in the woods like this. This is nonsense. A good feller has done wedges in his back pocket and can literally move across a mountainside thinning continuously. It is very dangerous but not so much for a good sawman. A good one never cuts off a tree , and will readily give up any saw rather than their lives but there are always gonna be accidents . Same with ironworkers just don't be there. People are taught their trades by men that know . Knowledge accrues I've been on jobs where thousand years of experience is represented in just a few men. They haven't given the Ironworkers a job they couldn't do since the pyramids .

[@adamclark9253]

Protective HT we also lick our fingers, toss soil, put our ear to the trunk and look for moss

[@01mustang05]

Loggers don't care about removing roots from the ground. And usually don't have to deal much with direction needed for tree to come down. Even if psychics of all this isn't fully understood, this is all good mechanical information.

[@jonesy369]

I would have like to have seen a little more about the mechanics of setup -- the knots, how it actually went together, etc. I always have a hard time visualizing what people are describing with these pulleys and ropes. But, interesting video and thank you for this and the series.

[@terryhale9006]

+jonesy369 Thanks Jonesy. I'll give that some consideration. There are only a few knots that can't be trusted. Of those that can be, there are some that will bind up really tight and become very hard to undo. The good knots (those that are reliable AND easy to undo afterwards) are already well covered in quite a few videos. For anchorage, the Cow Hitch and the Clove Hitch, each with a couple of Half Hitches for backup, are my favorites. The Bowline, to hold the pulley, is another favorite.

[@ArsonistArborist]

+Terry Hale midline knots like the alpine butterfly or triple bowline are good to learn to. Also, probably worth mentioning, most of those cheaper pulleys you can buy for $15 or whatever are not meant to be anchored by rope. They often require an intermediary accessory between the rope and the pulley such as a clevis or carabiner because the bend radius is too tight on the pulley anchor point and may actually cut the rope

[@terryhale9006]

D. Ryan Shaw Correct. (I was going to mention that, but it was already becoming a bit of a dissertation.)

[@ArsonistArborist]

Fair enough

[@bearnolen3584]

Great video. I bought 450 ft. of rope and am having difficulty finding pulleys for the rope. They're either too narrow or sot strong enough. please send me a link.

[@terryhale9006]

Hi, Bear. The diameter makes a difference. There are several good arborist supply houses. Your loication might make a difference onh shipping. The three I uses most frequently are Tree Stuff.com, WesSpur, and SherrillTree. You can shop others, but you will probably find that good pulleys have steep prices. How you are going to use them makes a difference. The serious arborist pulleys must be significantly stouter than the weight of the top or log they are going to be used to lower. That is because the pulley has to catch the weight of the falling log and that impact produces a shock that can be over three times the static weight. www.treestuff.com/store/products.asp?category_id=235 www.sherrilltree.com/tree-rigging/rigging-devices-harware/isc-compact-rigging-pulley www.wesspur.com/pulleys/pulleys-blocks-main.htmlwww.wesspur.com/pulleys/pulleys-blocks-main.html

[@bearnolen3584]

@@terryhale9006 Thank you. I found a good price at E-Rigging.com.