Punishment in Video Games

We'll be looking at examples of operant conditioning, specifically punishment, through various games, before I share a design on the topic from my Stema Project.
Thank you to @FCPlaythroughs for the gameplay footage
Learn more through the links below:
Bad Endings: • Bad Endings in Games
Fighting Game Punish: glossary.infil.net/
Skinner Box in Games: • The Skinner Box - How ...
Operant Conditioning: • The difference between...
Music referenced: pastebin.com/XEAFNkL9
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#pokemon #gamedev #stem

[@VegaPhil]

The ultimate punishment in Pokémon is topsy turvy for me. So good to turn all of someone’s positive buffs into negative ones

[@epikoof]

dude the music here is phenomenal, like undertale's "game over" and the megalovania remix, with undyne's theme creeping in when she appears on screen

[@blockeontheleafeon]

Took the words out of my mouth.

[@Swagsire_]

The fact that I actually needed to skip the “spoilers” for Undertale because I’m only playing it now is kinda crazy

[@mmmmmmok5292]

lol

[@we_like_quaq7619]

Honestly the Lootbug is a good example of a negative punishment. If a lootbug takes an item, you cant sell it. If a lootbug takes a teamates body, you get a penalty. If a lootbug wants something you have, it takes your life.

[@volzuloof]

I really like the idea of a conditioning being a pokemon. Classical conditioning could be a really funny creature concept if you base it on Pavlov's dogs. I think for the positive reinforcement pokemon, it could have an ability that gives it a stat buff if you use type matchups correctly? Since that replicates the idea of a reward for like "doing the game right"

[@carimeslockdownedtree2654]

Woah!! No pokemon in the title!! I'm so happy that this is taking off so well that mentioning pokemon right off the bat doesn't feel (as?) necessary now! I'm so glad :D

[@Mornings]

This reminded me of a video I saw back around 2018/9 that talked about how most games are just glorified skinner boxes that give no possibility of being creative to the player when it comes to how to approach an issue. There's always one way the devs desire you to complete a task and to go outside that results in failure.

[@BBG07endless]

The Skinner box thing is kind of the problem with video games in general. Addictive ones are so profitable that the financial incentive for developers is always to make a game more addictive. There’s even tons of discourse about how to make games more addictive on the internet, and a game being addictive is sometimes lauded as an achievement by the player. Pretty weird.

[@nitroderp7876]

Sandbox games exist. They don't use operant conditions much. E.g. minecraft and stardew valley both are like this.

[@jokc8]

@@BBG07endlessahh

[@IceFlower22]

​@@BBG07endless I think when people praise games for being "addictive" it's usually because what they mean is that the game is really engaging. I do also find it really weird when people say that, it's just strange. I think it's the same thing when people say a game looks good they say that the game's "graphics" are good, even though what they actually mean is that the game's aesthetics are good. Can't really blame the average person for using the word "graphics" though, as even many professional writers (including video creators) use that word to describe games' visuals. I would love it if gaming one day finally got these terms sorted out and standardized.

[@DrewatDrake]

You have the general concepts down better than most people, but removing reinforcers isn't the same as punishment. That's the concept of extinction, in which a previously reinforced behavior is no longer reinforced. I do appreciate that you understand that negative reinforcement isn't the same as punishment, because that's a common misconception. Source; I'm a Board Certified Behavior Analyst with a master's degree in this material.

[@abderianagelast7868]

I was going to leave a comment about the discussion since I work as a Behavior Technician, but I think you've got an even better handle of the concept than I would! The only thing in the video I really wanted to mention was that reinforcers don't HAVE to be something pleasant and punishers don't HAVE to be unpleasant. Anecdotally, there's often a correlation, but the important part is whether they increase or decrease a particular behavior. The video does at least get close to the idea, but it's also a concept that isn't necessarily intuitive to grasp.

[@IronVigilante451]

"Lets give it everything we got, ITS PUNISHMENT TIME!" -Monokuma

[@Rashicora]

How coincidental to talk about punishments and rewards so close to Valentine’s Day 🥰

[@greenapple9477]

Um, what???

[@Rashicora]

@@greenapple9477 You’ll figure it out

[@AllanaRace]

​@@greenapple9477 whether or not I can explain the joke depends on your age. That might just be enough of a hint

[@sunonaro]

NO TOUCH GOOMBA

[@Quandtuniverse]

omg, was NOT expecting a Wandersong shoutout here! One of my fave games ever and the bad ending is very obscure even among fans. Interesting to see you contrast it with Undertale given what a huge influence it was on Wandersong. I'm currently helping Greg playtest his new creature collector Beastieball, and it's been interesting watching your videos and contrasting your design choices too :>

[@solsystem1342]

There's a bad ending in wandersong? 🤔 I'm intrigued but also slightly afraid

[@ironici]

Didn't know about that ending either. Nice to hear that you're playtesting Greg's new game, I really liked Wandersong

[@wollywogholder3313]

Kind of interesting that it says "Behavian "(Punish form)"" at the top, I feel like we'll get some sort of rewarding form later on

[@odekoeodekoe5646]

Love the video, also as a big fighting game fan, i love that you talked about punishes but there is a term in the FGC that is literally "conditionning". In the context of fighting games it means punishing certain actions over and over to stop the opponent from doing them, or doing a certain action over and over to entice the other player to punish you, and then mix it up by doing another action that punishes the actio the opponent was conditonned to make or not to make. Love your work btw you're criminally underatted !

[@iridescent7816]

A fantastic refresher~ If anyone had questions about this topic, I'll happily point them towards this video. It is both well written and entertaining.

[@gritilazz_3478]

I love how youre using the psychology side of science in STEMA, very cool!

[@Shnarfbird]

behavian looks hollow knight af, sick

[@ankle_pain_cringineer]

"Ah... Free at last... Oh Gabriel, now dawns thy recogning and thy gore shall glisten before the temples of men. Creature of steel, my gratitude upon thee for my freedom, but a crimes thy kind has committed against humanity are not forgotten! And thy punishment... *IS DEATH*!" -Minos prime, Ultrakill

[@dark5756]

Behavian would be pretty op with encore And a healing move, of course it would like a high speed stat to make that work more consistently

[@YBRMiniboss]

SO close to 100k. Been watching since near the start of this channel. Keep up the amazing work!

[@EduSolsa]

That is an cool ability, specially cuz there is many how use choice itens and are forced to repeat the same move.

[@MidnightCapricorn2696]

It is also cool as it, whether unintentionally or not, references stale moves- spamming moves in a game (usually a fighting game) weakening their damage as they become "stale", a form of punishment for spamming one move.

[@MNovikmec]

This is the most chill and enjoyable channel on this platform

[@hope7317]

i’ve been going through your STEMA playlist slowly the past month and this is my favoruite vidoe in it so far! even though your actual creature was very brief, your explination and analysis of punishments was so thorough while being simple to understand. i genuinely feel like i learned so much!!

[@beamzzzhit7006]

Yo man. Good job on 100k. A shame that isn’t 10x the amount, but small steps, eh? Genuinely, really good job, and I can’t wait for more.

[@Kionum]

I'm so excited for your monster taming game, you put so much thought behind every single design, they all feel special. Your work is amazing keep it up!

[@cozydaybit]

Wow that might be my favorite design I've seen from your videos yet :o

[@troydivich]

this is so underated also this guy is at 99.9k subs so close to 100k good job!

[@hyped_kripou9701]

Oh wow exTREMEly close to 100K!!!!

[@starbeam7679]

Before I forget, I had a revelation the other day that for your "Stema" game if you havn't already, you should call the special stats "chemical" attack/defence because physical and chemical changes are the 2 ways an element can be changed, or something like that, if I remember correctly.

[@n0rtist]

Frankly this sounds like an amazing idea! I've been thinking about it the past few days because my main issue is what physical and chemical changes would entail like, wouldn't all Pyro-moves be chemical? Freezing moves by definition would all be physical. They seem to restrict the type a lot while I want moves of both varieties for every type. Still, thank you for the great suggestion, I'll need to chew on the idea some more.

[@starbeam7679]

@@n0rtist that is a good point. Maybe if you wanted to, you could have it as a visual thing that certain moves are labeled as physical and chemical just for the science relation. If not, having a creature based on physical and chemical changes would be really cool if you haven't already! Probably with 2 forms, each based on physical or chemical changes.

[@wpbn5613]

The bad ending in Wandersong is one of my favorite bad endings in any game ever, not necessarily because of the ending itself but because of how strongly it reinforces the message of the game. Gives the canon ending a lot more impact imo

[@ericwijaya2119]

Card roguelikes like Slay the Spire, Inscryption, Touhou Lost Branch of Legend and others I probably haven't gotten to yet have this thing where if you quit too early in a run some of your starting bonuses are revoked until you git gud

[@LunaBit985]

gotta love whenever nortist uploads, you deserve way more subscribers than you do

[@mousetoons5514]

2:03 haha Metal Gar Solid

eyy congrats on 100k nort!

[@CyanKnight96]

Topic aside, music editing in this video goes *crazy*

[@wesjturnerturner2161]

I SAW THAT! THE THUMBNAIL CHANGED! TOTAL UPGRADE!

[@zarbimaster]

always great to see a nortist video

[@erinkarp]

Behavian looks super cool

[@colm1983]

Almost 100k, baby!!!! Let's get it!

[@joaoguardini6770]

In hard games, indiviual instances of difficulty and grind are punishing, but there are reinforcements (such as new information and mastery of systems), thats why people keep going on and why hard modes cant be called only punishing. Well designed games spaces punishments along so that we develop a higher tolerance. When the game is too difficult and people quit, extinction is more likely the main process, since new efforts do not provide sufficient reinforcers

[@The7thLysineinyourDNA]

I know about Undertale and Wandersong and did not expect to see them in a STEMA video.

[@The7thLysineinyourDNA]

BTW he's at 99.8k subs. We might get a special STEMA video.

[@jinga9862]

I love the punishment of DPPt draining HP at 1 HP per frame and the game running at 30 FPS

[@connordarvall8482]

Nice. Behavian is the perfect first gym Pokemon.

[@flabberghasted143]

This man is so close to 100k and he totally deserves it

[@zixvirzjghamn737]

1:14 it can also be used for lore purposes, such as Undertale. Edutainment

[@ToTK_Nerd]

I love the part of Pokémon violet when kingambit back hand slapped mewtwo

[@neidenMetalun]

It would be hilarious if in the video about 'rewards' you introduce youtube membership tiers (or at least joke a segueway into talking about it)

[@mrholmer4206]

I wish the devs for Pokemon Unite added punishments for players, but nuhuhh, you get to have all of the items you want on a pokemon and that'd make it the most OP mon especially grouped with competent teammates on their end :((

[@Darkrai_Y_GX]

I wasn't expecting you to talk about Undertale, but hey... Isn't it one of the best games where really, your actions have consequences?

[@you0tuber6]

Lol that thumbnail killed me xD

[@tyomoonfell7722]

Great video! been watching a lot of your videos lately as I have been solo deving a monster collector game in Godot myself. I was wondering what engine and what your world will be like?

[@ZEEproductionss]

the moment i realized he's using a pigstep remix in the early part of the vid :]

[@goldenyeetus]

me 5 seconds in. i cant wait for him to talk about under- I MEANT IT AS A JOKE

[@loogi_is_die]

I'm playing with you! Psychologically!!!

[@takenname8053]

A punishing creature design! What about punishing gameplay?

[@GynxShinx]

Behavian gets another form?!

[@It-me-gog]

100k soon!!!

[@Bad_pun]

Fascinating

[@tpfoxCastro]

As an huge Undertale fan I don't think it's correct to call the genocide route "the bad ending". The genocide route is supposed to be a secret, creepy and rumour like ending, something that the kids would talk on he playground telling each other that you can fight Sans (also a way of giving the two hardes boss fights to the player). I think a better example of a bad ending in Undertale is some of the neutral routes, espcially he ones where you get vey close to reach pacifist but fail *with he ending in whih Asgore ends himself being the worst). In genocide you know what will happen, ou wanted this but in a bad neutral you failed to get your happy ending.

[@lirachonyr]

In my opinion, the worst ending is Pacifist after Genocide.

[@decayingfairy3996]

I feel like losing most positive dialogue and experiencing the saddest storyline is more like a bad ending than asgore dead

[@marcoasturias8520]

No, genocide is what you get when playing undertale like a normal RPG, instead of an anti-RPG. It's a trap, for playing "regularly".

[@tpfoxCastro]

@@marcoasturias8520 No, it isn't. To get genocide you need to spend a lot of time farming, like hours to kill all the monsters. Just killing all monsters you find will only give you neutral, that's why I said genocide is supposed to be secret, creepy and kinda like a misterious rumour, because to kill every single monster it takes a lot of effort and time

[@marcoasturias8520]

@@tpfoxCastro farming is the most normal thing to do in a conventional rpg

[@EpicJman6]

Ooh wasn’t expecting this

[@PJutch]

3:33 why damaging player is positive punishment? It removes your precisious hp.

[@KingKuron_]

WANDERSONG MENTION ‼️‼️

[@hahahay3s]

KZbin. GIVE HIM HIS VERIFICATION MARK

[@SpiritArcticfox]

So close to 100k

[@3MB3Rx134]

JUST SHAPES AND BEATS B-ROLL ‼️‼️

[@yamsdev]

Holy shit Banov mentioned! 😍

[@mito_sis]

ALMOST AT 100K GOGOGOGOGO

[@Moon_Light7474]

This video is fantastic and I LOVE BEHAVIAN

[@awesomenessx15]

FYI I was going to watch the video with the first title and thumbnail, but I didn't have time to until now

[@Shayne007]

Behavian looks cool 😎. But I'm wondering if your game is going to be on steam and if it is I'll play it even if it cost money 😊

[@disappointedcreeper]

behavion looks a lot like the grimchild from hollow knight to me

[@lilylunamoonyt]

Can you make the fame open world and add some customization options for the player, also please use this art style in the game

[@evieeevee]

Was that a Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory? If so, I love it💜

[@RainMarrlen]

2:03 METAL GAR SOLID

[@0rangeShake]

100k SUBS!!!

[@user-bq9ws5gc8v]

good vid

[@gretingshello]

Is behevian's other form is reward form?

[@pantheonmaker9437]

So will þe next video show Behavian Reward Form? My current bet is it’ll be Aero-Chroma

[@cat0_e981]

metal gar solid

[@DiamondAppendixVODs]

I love Metal Gar Solid

[@tieman_06]

Btw let's celebrate the 100k subscribers :D

[@LHehehehe]

u got 100k WWWWWW!

[@yahavkadosh1636]

Wait where is the other form

[@Psy-Why]

Second? Love your vids keep it up!

[@ChiliB0tArt]

..... bird looks cool ....

[@derpious267]

This guy sounds kinda like Linkus7

[@decayingfairy3996]

Haze? I’ll do you one better, Topsy Turvy

[@mewtwoinchernobyl]

How dare you whack Mewtwo :(

[@user-mk1du8fj8r]

Tf2 Jarateeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[@Noah49256]

👽🥄 Spoon gang checking in! 🌀 If you also believe spoons are superior to forks, leave a like. Remember, the spooniverse is watching. 🌌👀 #spoongangorbit 🛸✨️

[@decayingfairy3996]

you know…

[@antoninosorgona3472]

Sup 🤙

[@Guy_Persn]

Oof

[@microcoin8789]

Metal Gar Solid 💪🗿🍷

[@TheDimensionalArtist]

Anti Privacy next lol?

[@jmcbango]

First? Love your vids keep it up!

[@lorekeeper685]

I tho this was about the move Not bdsm

[@user-ct2pl3uk5p]

mrbeast

[@alice11307]

is this atriocs most mid chatter????

[@SlimeyGrime]

8th? im very early