Pythagorean Tuning vs Just Intonation | 5 Examples in Repertoire

[@andrewbeckett4001]

Thank you! This is excellent pedagogy with advanced concepts and topics described clearly in plain language. I’ve been composing since age 8 but I never (even though I’ve conducted many string quartets, mixed ensembles & orchestra) have consciously thought about these methods of slipping in and out of tuning styles, like “codeswitching”, within a piece or even a phrase. I’ve begun exploring modal music which brought me here and I feel like these concepts could be very useful!

[@Violinna]

Awesome! Thanks so much for sharing part of your journey!

[@adamvonhousen]

Yesss! I’ve always been a “give me examples” kinda person, so this supplemental video is perfect for people like me! So great that you used unaccompanied, chamber, and orchestral examples. And also really glad you talked about that hella difficult and frustrating Bach andante... that movement and the C major sonata are so stressful to play because I feel like I do have to settle for (willingly) playing some chords/double stops out of tune.. even that F in the 1st measure. I can jump on board with placing that lower and the 4-3 suspension thing you mentioned earlier in the vid. I’m glad that some parts of intonation are arguable, even though a lot of people speak like there’s only one way. Again, great vid/discussion ❤️

[@Violinna]

Thank you so much, Adam!! I'm glad to hear this resonated (pun intended 😉). And you're right - the 4-3 suspension idea is also doable in the Andante opening! Harmonically, it does makes sense to take that route instead of compromising the E.

[@leggettpianoservice7802]

Great! Thank you for the hands-on examples!

[@Violinna]

You're welcome!

[@ktowje]

Thank you ! This is the video I've always wanted to see.

[@Violinna]

Thank you for watching & subscribing! =)

[@franklarge1663]

Great video! Thank you.

[@Violinna]

You're very welcome! Thank you for watching!

[@LauraGianniniViolinist]

Great examples for this topic, I especially appreciated the ensemble ones! A former teacher of mine used to say that we always make a choice in spots where it’s subjective to pick between one option or the other, and that becomes what/how we want to express. I always think about these words!

[@Violinna]

Great words of wisdom!!!

[@AprilClaytonflute]

I love this discussion about tuning systems!

[@Violinna]

Thanks April!

[@kayaviola]

Incredible video and I’m so happy you are talking about it Inna!

[@Violinna]

Thanks Kaya! :)

[@charlespiccione1214]

Thanks you for explain a problem I have as a fiddler / learning violin. Fiddling with guitars, mandolins and banjos uses a lot of 3rds then put a singer in there and play the melody. I was alway hunting and never figured out the “why”. I think you resolved the why for me.

[@Violinna]

So glad this was helpful for you! Thanks for watching!

[@Virens132]

In the last example, I would definitely choose to treat the perfect 4th as a dissonance. Making the F more close to the low 7th in the B F interval (G7)

[@saea58]

Thank you Inna, so interesting. ☺️

[@Violinna]

=)

[@seanbradleyofficial]

Inna! This video is soooo good! Super informative and clear! Fantastic examples and *excellent* instruction (and video editing)! Def subscribing!

[@Violinna]

Thanks so much, Sean! Glad it's helpful! Thanks for subscribing :)

[@enzocypriani5055]

Definitely concur :)

[@Violinna]

@@enzocypriani5055 thank you :)

[@AspartameBoy]

So equal temperament is still not acceptable to violinists. GOOD!!

[@AspartameBoy]

Trombone player here agrees TOTALLY!!

[@sarsedacn]

very good illustration of the just vs Pythagorean intonations. Great examples. If I have one suggestion, that would be to invest in a good Mic. Your audio quality is all that matters here. All the best and keep up your good work :)

[@Violinna]

Thank you very much =)

[@Geert.Van.Boxelaer]

I am so happy I chose guitar, saxophone and piano :D now I also know why I'm always out of tune :) well explained

[@Violinna]

Greetings ~ thank you for taking your time to enjoy this video. I'm glad to hear it was helpful; intonation is always a work in progress. Keep it up! :)

[@AdrielCollomb]

Interesting discussion and video

[@Violinna]

Thank you very much! =)

[@LatchezarDimitrov]

100% in tune? Do you think that exists? Do you have a referency of the best musical temperament instead to repeat the same unusual things?

[@NDNdivergent]

Lmfao!! Next time someone accuses me of being out off tune, I'm going to say "No! I'm not out of tune, your ears are just hearing it in equal temperament!"

[@Violinna]

🤣🤣🤣

[@vini_artist]

people are not prepared for the complex art of microtonal music. 😂

[@alionatrubca2833]

Thank you for this video! I found it very useful 🌿🌸

[@Violinna]

So glad it was useful!!

[@LouisaArtStudio]

So beautiful

[@nosson77]

If we strictly go by the rule of doing what sounds best for the melody and then use just intonation harmony for thirds and sixes, then in the last example if we say that pythagorean tuning sounds best for the melody then the C would have to change pitch. I would be very curious to know if this has been tried and if it sounds good.

[@BicoLaFrey]

Very interesting!

[@PlanetImo]

How very interesting!! :)

[@vladmed6389]

In Bach sonata, why don't you try to adjust root C to match E and F? :) I though the general point was to keep main melody equally tempered and bend harmonic voices to make perfect intervals?

[@Violinna]

That's because the root is the foundation of the harmony, and that's also the key of the movement. Adjusting it will make the whole thing really out of tune, especially as the lower voice changes. Imagine if the foundation of a building shifted.

[@jackviolin7867]

Thank you for the explanation. How do you recommend F higher or lower in the first chord D/F/A of Bach Ciaccona? F should be slightly high if you take just intonation, but Pinchas Zukerman recommended lower F at 10:38 in the video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gpmph4WPftKjj9E. Also Levon Chilingirian recommended lower F at 17:15 in the video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/npe5cqR8eqqemqs

[@Violinna]

That is very interesting - they both lean toward more "expressive" intonation here. This is where the whole concept becomes more subjective. Yes, F has to be slightly higher for just intonation. When it's low like that it emphasizes "minor" quality more, but it can sound quite harsh...at least to my ears! But maybe the performer is after that? My current preference here at the time of writing this is just intonation, but who knows - it might change over time. With vibrato, the F in just intonation would oscillate with its "lower" form, helping it retain some of its more "minor" quality while helping the chord ring better.

[@380stroker]

I would really like to hear Mozart's music played in the correct temperament from his time and the correct concert pitch (A=421.6hz) of his time. I still can't find any examples on youtube or the internet. I've been listening to Mozart incorrectly this whole time. The whole world has.

[@KcDaugirdas]

Talich sounds more Pythagorean, with a sharp maj 3rd, Emerson sounds like a warmer, closer-to-just-intonation 3rd. Did I get it right? :) Thanks for the video. I'm currently attending a medieval vocal workshop where we are being asked to sing in Pythagorean tuning, so I'm nerding out :)

[@Violinna]

For whatever reason, I preferred Talich intonation on the day I compared this section. Wonder how my listening and taste changes a few months or years later🤔 That is very cool about the medieval vocal program!

[@alce716]

it´s very intresting taht of just intonation..i´m a viola student and sometimes i feel taht differences of intonation into a group...I have wondered if when tuning the instrument I should do it with a piano or just tune the A in 44 and the rest of the strings in perfect fifths.... what do you think? thans so much!!! 🎻💟

[@Violinna]

That's a great thing to consider - how to tune. Some ensembles have a different way of tuning from the "standard" (ie - based on the key they are playing, instrumentation, etc) and I think it really helps them sound extra resonant.

[@alce716]

@@Violinna i see....well...need some dicussion, but it´s very intrsting!! thanksfor your answer!! 🥰

[@enzocypriani5055]

Greeeeeeat videos!

[@jjginon8001]

Thank you for this one. I'm quite having trouble with Wohlfahrt Easy Elementary Method for Beginners, Op. 38. In the first etude, if the student plays the open strings tuned in pure fifths should the teacher play in an A minor just intonation, otherwise if teacher part is also played in Pythagorean wouldn't it sound out of tune? And also for the other etudes that needs pressing, if the student part has to be played in Pythagorean, does the teacher part needs to compromise using just intonation? It looks like a simple etude for starters, but considering intonation in it already drives me nuts 😂😂😂

[@Violinna]

Ha! That's tricky because the teacher has the moving melody.. The G# in bar 3 of that 1st etude would have to be in tune with student's open E but also act as a leading tone. One option is to treat the first G# in just intonation and 2nd one in pythagorean since it acts as a passing tone and doesn't fall on the beat! But of course, that means the 2 G#s wouldn't match with each other -_- Another argument is to just stay in Pythagorean tuning throughout or something in between like equal temperament.

[@jjginon8001]

@@Violinna Thank you very much! Your reply is a big help. At least the idea of non-chord tones can stay in Pythagorean while chord tones would sound beautiful in Just. Anyway, I'll stay in tune (pun intented 😆) to your channel!

[@virginiahumphrey-taylor9214]

HOW DOES A CAPPELLA HARMONY IN 4 PARTS TUND BEST?

[@Violinna]

Like a string quartet, I guess. Really depends on the music and the roles of the voices.

[@danmargetic]

I think it is the best to stick to the 12 tone equal tempered tuning as the best compromise all the time, especially if more than one instrument is involved. I also think that intervals should be named as intervals of the 12 TET. To me 'perfect fourth' is the fifth interval (of the 12 TET), 'perfect fifth' is seventh interval, 'minor third' is third interval, 'major third' is the fourth interval, and so on. In my view, flats and sharps don't need to exist at all, because in the last 200 or so years we tune our instruments in 12 TET. We don't need to have music theory "grounded" on the diatonic scale, as we know that it was a false attempt to understand music in the past. Because of that bad tradition, the music theory and especially music notation is still unnecessarily complicated.

[@srinitaaigaura]

Not on a violin. Many notes are horrendously out of tune.

[@gregoryf4186]

No it’s not, you will rarely be in tune if you stick to 12tet

[@AspartameBoy]

Arrangers! Do NOT have more than one instrument playing the melody note AT ANY TIME!! Conductors! Delete any such redundant and obviously out of tune notes from the orchestra background players. Only the soloists own the melodies!!!