Q&A Clip: Can Angels Exist Outside of Humanity?

Q&A Clip: Can Angels Exist Outside of Humanity? | Jonathan Pageau

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@jaredselim2689 Жыл бұрын

Wow, that final image of the angels refusing to bow down to Adam struck me like a frying pan to the back of my head! It explains the Genesis account given in Archbishop Timothy's Discourse on Abbaton (3rd-4th century) so well. Isn't it so interesting how these sons of the morning, given such immense power, are commanded to serve man, who is "a little lower than the angels".

@MattisWell.20 Жыл бұрын

My question to Jonathan would be: are the fallen angels not a result of our perpetration upon the world, being that the angelic exist through us? Is their fall not something apart from our fall, if primarily their existence is not something apart from our existence?

@jaredselim2689 Жыл бұрын

@@MattisWell.20 (@@MattisWell.20.Therefore, the conditions and the entities under which the Snake could seduce Adam and Eve into disobedience precede the event actually occurring. Jordan Peterson or John Vervake may accept that God is dependent on His creations for existence, since they first strive for correspondence with scientific theories (like evolutionary selection or advantage) that assert themselves as preceding the rise of consciousness. I don’t think that’s teleologically possible, but it is a good question to whether the hierarchy of values and spirits (capable of being misaligned with the Most High Good), need to predate the material.

@jg36 Жыл бұрын

I find the idea that angels fell because they didn’t want to bend the knee to man very problematic and don’t see even a tiny hint of it in Holy Scripture. On the contrary, they’re called “gods” and “sons of God” even in Genesis, and we’re told that man was made a “little lower” than them (that is, by nature, we’re an inferior creature). In Christ, we’re able to become “sons of God” and the equals of angels by grace.

@brotherbroseph1416 Жыл бұрын

@@jg36 read the Dueterocanon and Enoch and quit thinking so much like a Protestant (protester). Sola Scriptura is a heresy and it holds you back from understanding the stories, traditions, and mindset of the Church. It’s not written in Scripture that Joachim and Anna were the Theotokos’ parents but the whole Church has believed this.

@MattisWell.20 Жыл бұрын

@@muntelestraniu14 beautiful way of reconciling that kind of language!🙏

@Tristan_Willcox Жыл бұрын

i guess the immediate thing that comes to mind is when angels seem to be speaking to people or the humans interact with the angels, sometimes its hard to distinguish whether the person was even an angel or a human from the POV in the people in the text. its weird because with demons i do see the connection with possesion being like a parasitic process or addiction, but with angels its almost like they arent described the same way, angels dont seem to "possess" people in the bible. so it almost seems that the ontology of demons and angels is being described differently in the bible despite demons being fallen angels. if you had a conversation with mary or daniel about the angels they encountered, what would be their experience of them? how would they describe their experience with angels? maybe im asking the wrong questions haha

@rabidL3M0NS Жыл бұрын

It’s sort of like asking whether mathematics exists outside of humanity.

@leondbleondb Жыл бұрын

Good one! But does it? ;D

@MattisWell.20 Жыл бұрын

But the angelic are associated with the stars in Scripture, and biblically, the stars are created before man. This is linear, of course, yet still true to the pattern of the text.

@piotr2190 Ай бұрын

Yes. If not. They are psychological manifestation of our moral psyche

@BenjaminOwenSlattery Жыл бұрын

Two things I don’t understand are how this relates to the creation and free will of angels. In my understanding of theology, all angels were created at the beginning of time, and were given one free choice to follow God or not. This, while making a lot of sense, seems to also imply that “new” angels can be “born” by new patterns and ideas. It also seems to imply that angels do not get that choice of free will, since their pattern seems to already have goodness or badness baked into it.

@matlockbobechko Жыл бұрын

The easy answer is yes, angels did pre-exist before humans. In Job 38:4-7, God lambastes Job for presuming to know more than he does, even though Job wasn't there in the beginning, but the angels (morning stars) were there: "“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements-surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, 7 when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

@DavidBlagic156945 Жыл бұрын

Jonathan, you're great, but this is a completely unorthodox position. The holy fathers are unanimous about the fact that angelic beings are, albeit bodiless, actual persons, as st Gregory Palamas puts it - with a mind (nous), dianoia (reason), but without a pneuma (spirit), or at least a life-giving one, because they have no body for the spirit to make alive. That's why Palamas says they're not a perfect image of the Godhead, while the humans are, possessing all 3 parts analogous to the hypostases of the Trinity (Nous - Father, Dianoia - Logos, Pneuma - Spirit). So, as persons, they do experience reality, and freely act upon it, but in having no temporal bodies, have no possibility of repenting. Also, the fathers are unanimous that angels preexist humans, as St Basil the Great clearly says in the Hexaemeron. A great source on Orthodox angelology would be St Ignatius Bryanchaninov.

@plantnovice 3 ай бұрын

6:45 “you don’t exist without your body” this isn’t totally obvious to me, as it can definitely be said that a person influences the world after death. Or at least the transcendent identity does. If I understand, this is basically what the saints do

@ThomasCYallouris 3 ай бұрын

Yet again, I did not understand Hoping sometime soon things will start to click in my head

@tzaphkielmelekiyah1518 4 ай бұрын

Their bodies are planets…and the cycles corresponding, mathematical philosophical allegorical in their singing the song of Holy

@MarcInTbilisi Жыл бұрын

Exactly, if I don't exist, why would I care what does or does not exist?

@romeisburning6739 Жыл бұрын

This is where you lose me. Not that I don't understand, but that I don't agree. It reduces the spirits to something like tricks of perception, optical illusions.

@kylemckinney_22 Жыл бұрын

It really doesn't

@romeisburning6739 Жыл бұрын

@@kylemckinney_22 Wow this is really convincing.

@jg36 Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I think he’s wrong about this. There are created spirits who exist independently of mankind, who are naturally superior to us (though, in Christ Jesus, we’re able to become their equals by grace), and who are individuals in their own right with names and wills and personalities that aren’t mere extensions of us If it suited God, he could have made them even if he didn’t also make us

@papercut7141 Жыл бұрын

@@romeisburning6739 you didn't do anything convincing yourself. You just asserted a different opinion

@drooskie9525 Жыл бұрын

@@jg36 I'm fairly certain that it has less to do with inferiority, and more to do with the hierarchy of being that the universe is structured with. Christ was made little lower than angels. Humans are little lower than angels. He is closer to earth, rather than being up in "heaven". Once the resurrection happens, we will surpass angels in that regard.

@parastoogolestany Жыл бұрын

What a deep and complicated question ❤ 💭 🫤

@daveyofyeshua Жыл бұрын

From my understanding demons aren't fallen angels.... Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling-these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

@_Eamon Жыл бұрын

So before I listen to your answer I want to take a stab at applying what I've learned. I would say that although yes, it is through man that the heavens and earth are joined (were the heavens and earth to be apart there would be no existence at all), it is not ONLY through one or a finite number of individual human beings but ALSO AND PRIMARILY through something like the being which is the perfection of man which is a heavenly being but also by possessing all of human nature in itself also possesses the union of the heavens and earth? And so therefore even if no particular human beings had existed, through this transcedant human form all of the heavenly beings are made to exist. And of course by way of arguments longer than a youtube comment, Christ would be this person through whom all else finds life.

@1bcranston Жыл бұрын

I understand logic of a human not existing before his body. But then does the human exist after his body? Or how is this understood in relation to the final resurrection?

@Drawn-by-Abundance Жыл бұрын

What other verses do we find besides Jer. 1:5 that offer commentary on whether or not our souls existed before our bodies?

@clearvision4233 Жыл бұрын

What I believe, is that when we depart from this world, whatever we feel, our vibe, our energy, happiness, our sorrow, whatever we are filled with from within, that we will take to the other world.

@MattisWell.20 Жыл бұрын

My question is, are the fallen angels not a result of our perpetration upon the world, being that the angelic exist through us? Is their fall not something apart from our fall, if primarily their existence is not something apart from our existence?

@jg36 Жыл бұрын

I think Jonathan and I would disagree, because I’d say *unambiguously* that created spirits existed before mankind.

@polemizator723 Жыл бұрын

What come first? Community or indywidual? Community is build by inwiduals But every indywidual is born in community.

@metaspacecrownedbytime4579 Жыл бұрын

It is like asking, "would humans exist if there was no sky?" An immature question.

@rme36 Жыл бұрын

All these „what if“ questions have limited value since we don‘t have the capacity in our minds to ponder them productively.

@keithjohnsonYT Жыл бұрын

They say Santa exists..they say Santa does not exist…truth is, there’s presents under the tree. (Why am I upset by the tree of the sephiroth?) If a tree falls…can you hear me now?