What Are Tetramorphic Cheribum? | With Matthieu Pageau

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Dr Jordan B Peterson and Mathieu Pageau discuss the biblical four-headed cherubim, an amalgamation of animals and man seemingly brought into being by the loss of Adam’s ability to name and differentiate the animals. From here they explore the imagery and language of the flaming sword, wielded at the gates of the garden of Eden.
Matthieu Pageau is a Canadian author, residing in Quebec. For two decades, he’s discussed religious philosophy and symbolism with his brother and icon carver Jonathan Pageau, a frequent guest on JBP's KZbin channel and podcast. These discussions were part of what motivated Matthieu to write his new book, The Language of Creation: Cosmic Symbolism: A Commentary (amzn.to/3LVzkgj).
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[@DannyG683]

"If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames."

[@spacemanbill9501]

Humanity strives for perfection and we continue on that path until we die. Hopefully whatever we build lasts a few generations, helps the next.

[@06rtm]

Who said that?

[@DannyG683]

@@06rtm the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15

[@ashleygatewood]

4:00-6:00 This thought is a spiritually sophisticated observation. “…you have to subject yourself to this flaming sword of judgement..carving away from yourself everything that isn’t fit to be in paradise…everything that isn’t perfect enough to be paradisal…” You swung the sword with a good deal of accuracy. That is a powerful observation into the word of God~ On another note, symbolism is like the leaves Adam clothed himself with when he knew he had sinned and God would be coming back soon to walk with him in the garden. Symbols introduce a layer which keeps us at a great (and comfortable) distance from the Father, so we don't have to enter into a present, mutual relationship with Him. Symbolism is a beautiful way to look into truths and digest them. But if you put symbolism first, before Christ, or if symbolism exalts anything other than Christ, you can walk into error - as many of these comments are bringing to your attention. Please don’t ignore them. We shouldn’t fear closeness with God so much so that we hide from Him. Reverence, yes, but not cowering fear. Here is where perception must be considered carefully: God is not waiting for us to trip so that He might exact punishment upon us. He is merciful before anything else, especially concerning His children. We should come boldly before the throne of God! Make the angels gasp, you know? They need some excitement in their lives... (1 Peter 1.12, hebrews 4.16) Be like Esther, approach the throne of God before being called, because Christ is the Scepter of Righteousness that was thrown forward on the childrens’ behalf in acceptance, by His generosity and grace. The flaming sword - why was it there? The Sword is ultimately interpreted as Christ guarding the entrance to the garden housing the Tree of Life. Jesus was simultaneously the Guardian and the Savior, both the One Who rejects and the One Who saves - saving us from doing the ultimately stupid thing of eating from the Tree of Life whilst in a fallen state and thus, living eternally locked into that sinful state, wrapped in human flesh forever, unredeemable… my God, absolutely horrific. Praise God for His mercy. Now Christ became the Gate (and by no other way can Paradise be entered) and we are freely invited into paradise. You're already in if you are a Christian. You don’t have to fight your way into paradise (paradise here meaning God’s acceptance of you as a son). His acceptance of you is a gift paid in full by Christ - if God based His acceptance on how well we can beat ourselves into perfection (or how much knowledge we can attain), can you see how this would be cruel, unfair and impossible? Here’s another way to look at it, you must become the perfect man before ‘Eve’ marries you. Impossible, as you’ve said. God is not a tyrant. Projecting human nature onto God is using the incorrect template and will skewer our lives to a great extent. Now your observation to me: (understood a bit differently as I do not have to work myself into a better/higher/more perfect state in order to enter paradise (I’m not fighting the Sword to gain entrance, I couldn’t manage that in my fallen state, so Christ did it for me), we’re back in the garden, entrance afforded to us by Christ, now we must work on our relationship with God by letting the word (sword) work in us to cut away all the dead branches of sin and carnal desires so we can grow into the fullness of Christ. Oh sure, for awhile His garment will hang too long on our arms, sag too much, be too broad in the shoulders, but He is faithful to us, we’ll grow up and He’ll help us always along the way. He is the author and finisher of our faith. What we really long for I believe, is relationship. He loves you, fully and wholly. You’re accepted just the way you are, just like our own children are accepted by us, but then we teach them to put away childish things in order to enter into fellowship with God. And wow, if you aren’t having at least some amount of fun with it then you are most certainly missing one crucial aspect: The Holy Spirit. Want an adventure? Go find Him in the word, the Third Person of the Trinity, and ask Him to baptize you (no not the water baptism, you should think about doing that also when you’re ready, if you haven’t). The baptism by fire of the Holy Spirit. Now that! That is the beginning of a grand adventure….

[@PrakashToptrader-ge5qb]

Hi brother. I have a question. During my prayers I feel a intense burning sensation. You mentioned about the fire of holy spirit, is this what happens to me during prayers or is it evil?. I feel the burning everyday during prayers.

[@alexybissonnette3068]

@@PrakashToptrader-ge5qbsame thing for me it happened. For me it was when I was in really graceful state. Ask for guidance by seeing someone experimented, discerning is always better not alone !

[@rainking50]

What a beautiful comment. Thank you. I especially appreciate your identification of the importance of the Holy Spirit and how we experience that as fruit. 🙏

[@DannyG683]

“I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

[@jameswest9469]

What’s that from?

[@DannyG683]

@@jameswest9469 Matthew 3.11-12

[@johncondon4647]

The purifying flaming Sword of Truth. Naming the 'animals' and geography within is difficult, if not impossible because these concepts are as abstract as the symbolism that resides within a dream. Psychologists, Psychiatrists, Holymen, & Shaman has their work cut out for them.

[@Cinderella227]

Excellent conversation. Thank you Jordan. ✝️❤️

[@calebojo6491]

Wooooow. This is deep. Judgement before the return of paradise!!!! Damn!!!

[@josephtravers777]

Judgement every day by choice.

[@Dumbledore050]

Reminds me of Scott Pilgrim vs the World when he pulls the flaming sword of love and one of self-respect out of his chest. Fantastic hero’s journey.

[@KarlMiller]

It seems that some of the discussion of the sword "turning on itself" may be missing the most obvious symbology for the sword that turns on itself... ... which is that the sword is mostly used to represent the word of God, which, by itself defines its purpose and is the tool by which we can fight all battles (solve all our problems). As the Bible is written to be perfectly true and self-describing, the notion of the sword turned on itself may just be a metaphoric demonstration as to the power of the self-defining, perfect and powerful word of God.

[@TheFirstAmendment]

Absolutely!

[@helives2630]

I listened to this entire discussion a few days ago and man, there is so much to unpack here.

[@callumarendse1984]

Irreducible complexity (IC) is the argument that certain biological systems cannot have evolved by successive small modifications to pre-existing functional systems through natural selection, because no less complex system would function. A good example would be Blood clotting cascade and the beautiful creatures we see everyday.

[@archlich4489]

Thank you both!

[@intellwarrior]

Dr. Peterson, the Lord be with you.

[@imapolemicist2239]

Definitely something different in this video... This DW+ account is starting to sound even better...

[@benjamincaddle2018]

Confusion got hold of the sword of logic and prevents clear conscience of identity, ability and structure by turning it on the weilder. Man carries a sword woman carries a mirror, if you take away the sword confusion is rampant if you take away the mirror violence is rampant. All two are need to create a kingdom/civilization of God and God in this context to me means direction or goal, which completes the logos of the meaning bible how to create a civilization of direction. A meta story of an archaic story. That was my take and it makes sense why the bible had been hard for me to decipher because I've had a very hard time understanding myself my sex and women and their sex. It's like the canon meta story of hunter gatherer farmer nurturer identity into modern times. This is so deep when you add the fireplace into the mete story.

[@ismarwinkelman5648]

I can’t watch the video for some reason 😐 But I will try again later, Greetings and appreciation from the Netherlands 🇳🇱👌🏾🔥❤️

[@ethimself5064]

works here

[@lanceroark6386]

Same; no worky.

[@SitNSpinRecords]

Mr Peterson, I know it seems like 1/2 the world is against you and as much of a burden that is to bear, imagine how much more insight you now have gained as to what the people had to live with and struggles they went through so long ago. To follow a human that claims to be the son of God even with the world saying how crazy you are. You have your own struggles and adversity to face, but what you provide is more a public service than anything else. You have the intelligence to not think but know and you share with the rest of us in a way people can understand. I am a very dangerous person with the ability to do un imaginable evil, but i also have control and choose not to. It would take a lot to make me unleash those horrible things, but they are still there. We all have this. One Russian killed millions of people. And one Russian decided not to push the button and saved millions of people. Thank you for your work. I wish long life and health to you and your family.

[@jasonhaymanonthedrawingboard]

Tetrahedral structures. On the engineering level wootz steel can resonate like a time Crystal once irradiated. Iron can become irradiated. Under certain circumstances can glow. A sword that can glow with fire and not loose it temper. Would be a flaming sword. The other way involves plasma being attracted to the steel.

[@InnerFlame4]

Salute to materials engineers 👌🏼👏🏼

[@jasonhaymanonthedrawingboard]

@@InnerFlame4 yep got to love the divine smiths. Without them nothing would get made or built.

[@tehallanaz]

Thanks

[@makebritaingreatagain2613]

The same sword is found in Buddhism and Hinduism, where it is the flaming sword of Manjushri, & I have heard it described and explained in much the same way.

[@hynjus001]

And don't forget the flaming sword of the Force, the lightsaber.

[@jonathanz.9675]

I can’t watch it either. It looks all glitched out with the buffer bar in the middle of the screen

[@svenboelling5251]

Couldn’t understand everything again because of my English, but because of the thing at minute 7 I suspect that the reason for the inability to name the species is different, as suggested in the video. So as I had experienced years ago with the horror after my trauma and all that, when I compare it with it, I have to see that the separation into different kinds is the real mistake and that you should see all life as one. The thing about the sword and the separation confuses me now, I’ll have to think about it later. But what I can say for sure now is that I see different egos being divided into. Every living being thinks of itself first, every group, every animal species, or family, political grouping is always something like an extended ego from oneself and the inability to separate is necessary if one wants to judge sins. Anyway, I have a suspicion that something is twisted 180 degrees and made right, wrong. Too much ego is too much selfishness, and in that sense I think, not being able to name the species would mean not being able to think only of oneself anymore. But it’s all really complicated when you have to judge from someone else’s point of view and go back and forth with the crap. Anyway, interesting subject, but difficult.

[@lindafreeman6962]

I think your are both right about the flaming sword. Doesn't have to be just one or the other.

[@lanceroark6386]

The flaming swords are the laws and the prophets. Because man refuses to submit to the burning swords, they deny him entry into paradise.

[@mariaspiteri2093]

The Queen of swords in tarot is different to the interpretation of the King of swords. Then you mentioned the 3 beasts and the charob, the Wheel of fortune card.

[@muddywitch9016]

At Globekli Tepe in Turkey there has been uncovered the possibly the oldest temples ever discovered (12,800 years). The imagery carved there contain lions, bulls and birds. Could this be a reference to that, maybe? The flaming swords could refer to an asteroid strike or a volcano?

[@hollywiley5668]

Dr Jordan, may I suggest u watch Perry Stone?? He is an excellent teacher of the Bible, he knows the hebrew Bible language, numbers and calendar.. he has a video on the tree of life.. I have learned ALOT. from him. He’s got one in titled this zero curse it’s good it’s about the presidents of the United States

[@ndorphin2564]

Every other JP podcast has a Pageau

[@christinabrantleywutt3569]

FANTASTIC.

[@Thefaceoftheword]

The chariot is a ship that is separate from the being in this instance a cloud is a ship

[@hollywiley5668]

You should see artist redemption of Ezekiel’s wheel it’s scary looking

[@iwonainoz]

May I suggest a correction of spelling in the title: CHERUBIM. Thank you for your work.

[@g3nj1]

My assertion is that; the Bible is to be taken POETICALLY AND LITERALLY. If it were taken purely symbolic that suggests it is only a fable with a moral, but everything that is described with imagery comes from a real event in history. Therefore, it can only be symbolic the way everything that happens in every person's everyday life is symbolic.

[@KizaWittaker]

Symbolism is exactly the language of the bible. You just misunderstand what symbolism is.

[@MichaelPatrick447]

Whats the difference between the bull and lion on left and right

[@teet2649]

💕

[@justtrolin]

A description of the assemblage point: the part of the human mind compiling the world around it. As described in Carlos cataneda's book: the art of dreaming, or was it the "the fire from whithin". Either way the idea of sorting consciousness according to their deeds is not far fetched at all. We literally are compartmentalizing the world everyday. Without thinking! WESOOKEWL!!! 😀

[@JackPoynter]

On the subject of archetypal symbolism: 1. Consider men aa a tree-inhabiting, primitive individual. In that context, the tree represents safety and refuge, and the provider of food. Why should it not be cherished, and worshipped, a veritable "rree of life"? 2. Then consider man leaving the trees, and moving into the open, exposed to all the natrural perils and predators. Is that not an "ejection from paradise"? 3. Next the discover of fire. Fire is dangerous, on can be burned, and perish, but it also protects (keeps the predators at bay,) and provides light at night, and protection from cold, and access to new foodstuffs, through cooking.) Is not fire itself a bight and shining two-edged force, something to be worshipped? 3. Then consider the discovery of tools, which give protection, the ability to fight dangerous things, and more access to food stuffs. Is this not the basis of, and the initiation of, worship and the concept of divinity?

[@nunyuh3693]

They just found a statue of an angel holding a sword in Russia I think it's a representation of the cherub that protects the garden of Eden. Everyone thinks it's a fallen angel but no.

[@noname-nr8uz]

♥

[@timwo1f]

Based

[@Whiskey19841]

Might a sword be adorned as a symbol of pride? For it's representative of ones honor, duty and service to others brought to bear by hope and by faith. Pride motivates and moves us towards an achievement, a goal, a "higher" place than we were once before. But the wise, such as the prophets, know all to well how pride misplaced may also bring doom upon the self and all they hold dear. For this reason they're humbled, choosing to make themselves "low" whereupon they're perception's are poised to receive all that is good and correspond with the word s

[@shiftybroccoli8891]

the notion of the passion in the Christian story is that Christ has to not only accept death but hell itself- death IS hell itself from the Biblical perspective. total and eternal destruction. never to return. to be judged by the almighty God with the flaming sword, has a lot of concurrent meanings. the lesser angels can take two forms: that of a man, or that of a flame, because they are perfect vessels for the holy spirit made by the power of the holy spirit by YeHoVah, the most high God, hence they act as direct instruments of his will and power. to be judged by the power of God (the holy spirit) is the fate of all creation, and you are either: found worthy to become a perfect vessel for the holy spirit ("you are gods"), and are given a new body and enter into the eternal restored kingdom which God promises to Abraham and to his descendents. Or: you are judged, and found unworthy, and are eternally and entirely destroyed. You will literally be ash under the feet of those in the kingdom.

[@seanconway1154]

Ezekiel is describing the armies of the North, led by the eagle/Shaman(wise man), the lion/their strong ruler, the bull/armies to be sacrificed & the human face/face of their emissaries. The 4 fronts that every army fights on, intelligence & vision, strength of leadership or morale, numbers & size of armies & diplomacy or the face that is presented publicly. The flaming sword is war. Death & destruction is one object.

[@KizaWittaker]

Not really

[@hollywiley5668]

Ezekiel is a watchman for God.. God told him that he was to watch over the village, if he saw danger coming he was to warn the people. If he didn’t warn them God would hold him accountable for the people’s blood., I guess that’s where the phrase blood on your hands comes from

[@spyroluver0951]

i can't watch the video :(

[@tedclemens4093]

From our perspective (as judges of right and wrong), JP's view of the flaming sword is a perfect description. Yes, of course! Slice away the impurities of our sinful nature to gain access to the tree of life! But Christ did that at the cross with mercy instead of the justification JP assumes. So what of that flaming sword then? It's the same picture as the increased pain of childbirth (new life). If we're going to follow Christ, it will have to be at the expense of our personal bent toward judging good from evil. And like Pharaoh, we won't give that up easily. Christ led the way as an example for us to follow. God is the judge, we are not (1 Peter 2:23).

[@hollywiley5668]

They say the garden of Eden was at the mouth of the Euphrates river before Adam and Eve sinned. You know there’s a prophecy that says when the great river Euphrates dries up that’s an end time prophecy and have you seen the Euphrates river lately?? It’s drying up

[@tmyoshimura621]

🤔

[@hollywiley5668]

The Bible was written by God through dreams and visions to his people or prophets.. so u are correct dr Jordan..

[@saltburner2]

That is a tendentious and unsupported claim.

[@hollywiley5668]

@@saltburner2 it’s supported in the Bible..

[@Thefaceoftheword]

In my right hand I will carry my Fleming sword with this flaming sword I disintegrate the desires thoughts acts actions plotters who come to cause me harm I will travel faster than a speeding bullet to cut down death

[@rmfyiffa]

Flaming Sword = Passionate Burning Spirit

[@hollywiley5668]

flaming sword turning every way to guard the path to the tree of life.. had to guard the tree of life w something very dangerous...

[@xiiinosceteipsum]

Taurus Leo Scorpio Aquarius

[@Thefaceoftheword]

100 arrows will strike Haarp and other diabolical technologies causing a fireworks spectacular

[@saltburner2]

Another trip into La-La Land with a successor of Nostradamus. How can JP be so astute on some matters and so gullible on others?

[@KizaWittaker]

How so? Just because you don’t understand the symbolism doesn’t mean its nonsense. Not really, it’s defining a loss of knowledge. The cherubim is a hybrid creature, a symbol of Adams loss of ability to names the animals - or to put another way - the loss of ability to assign earthly reality to heavenly principles, or facts to theories. It’s a confused mixture. The sword is that which can cut up the cherubim into definite and specific species, and restore coherence. However this sword is “turning on itself”. We can then understand this sword as caught in a self referential and self-defining loop. For example: What is a woman? Someone who is a woman And what is that? A woman. Its again the loss of ability to define higher principles with physical reality.

[@gardenrose264]

There is no confusion except for those who don't understand.

[@KizaWittaker]

Well yeah… that’s what confusion means 😂

[@hollywiley5668]

Within minutes of me praying for Alex Jones I pray to God for him to help him with his financial problems because he’s innocent of what he’s being accused of because I have to prove somebody anonymously donated $1 million in bitcoin to him and then another 5 million.. praying for your enemies is the best because if you’re innocent God delivers punishment to them and it is just and I’ve had it play out on Twitter that black race car driver Bubba Wallace I told him that God was gonna make him humble and his next race he crashed his car on the 17th lap and was out for the rest of the season and then something happened to the pit crew boss you know but people don’t listen to me and I’m trying to save the world and it’s not going very good because I don’t have that many followers and people don’t wanna listen anyways I showed him these miracles and they don’t even care

[@zachvinka6764]

Holy holy holy is the lord of hosts. The whole earth is full of his glory. The 8th order is the temple of higher order of living beings The 9th being perfect harmonic resonance. And of course God sits on the throne of 10 or rather 1 or 0 There are missing keys in sacred numerology and alchemy.

[@zachvinka6764]

Even that which divides must also be divided as it is too with existence...is how I would see a sword turning on itself

[@hollywiley5668]

Cherubim Guard God's Glory, Keep Records, and Help People Grow Spiritually

[@biscuitsandthat]

Crazy to think that you can literally think about anything you please, and these guys choose to spend their time thinking about this tripe 😬

[@KizaWittaker]

How arrogant

[@ronpaulrevered]

I saw this on LSD

[@darrennew8211]

When you're smart enough and as widely educated as Dr Peterson, you can take any random sentence and make up a deep and impressive explanation of it. I expect you could generate semi-random text with an AI and he'd teach you the deep inner meanings of it.

[@matteocoutant4282]

Haha

[@matteocoutant4282]

Perfect understanding

[@psychogat3]

you can see shapes in anything you look at too that doesn't mean the shapes aren't real.

[@saltburner2]

@@psychogat3 Nor does it mean they are real.

[@infinightsky]

🤣 maybe it’s simply mythology

[@KizaWittaker]

Not really, it’s defining a loss of knowledge. The cherubim is a hybrid creature, a symbol of Adams loss of ability to names the animals - or to put another way - the loss of ability to assign earthly reality to heavenly principles, or facts to theories. It’s a confused mixture. The sword is that which can cut up the cherubim into definite and specific species, and restore coherence. However this sword is “turning on itself”. We can then understand this sword as caught in a self referential and self-defining loop. For example: What is a woman? Someone who is a woman And what is that? A woman. Its again the loss of ability to define higher principles with physical reality.

[@sergiocalatayud5621]

Like number 666

[@areuaware6842]

Paganism.

[@ILIRIA_]

The Cherbums Seraphim and even God are all real physical beings, I seen a lion faced goat legs all around 1 ft physical beast appear to 5 of us. That is more revelation than you will ever need. I turned from a Anti-Theist Atheist to a God believer. I would recommend the Bible Project on youtube and Tim Mackie Archives if you want to know everything Godly and you don’t fall down the wrong path.

[@twisted4872]

You should paint your face white with a big red gash of a smile . . .it would go well with the suit . . ."Why so serious?"

[@lanceroark6386]

You two interpreting scripture dilute it and pervert its meaning; that’s like lying, or at least not telling the truth.

[@davids5006]

I disagree

[@Zemu8]

It’s his gnostic Christian ideas he got from Jung

[@lanceroark6386]

@@davids5006 as is your prerogative, Bobby Brown.

[@josephtravers777]

Pageau is presenting theology from the early Church Fathers. Let us hear your interpretation 2000 years later.

[@saltburner2]

@@Zemu8 Exactly!