Quality versus Value - and why stuff breaks (ZMR250 mini quadcopter analysis)

[@louletuga]

People who have seen your videos from the beginning know that you reviews are not biased. Ignore the negative comments and know that "we" always trust your opinion. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK BRUCE!

[@crankingitup]

Your RC videos are as good as it gets on youtube, Full of info, well laid out and efficiently presented within the time of the videos. Your also quite objective with your findings, which is why I keep coming back to watch these videos. It really goes to show that no matter how good the videos posted here, there will always be the arm chair critics. They are not worth anyone's time.

[@draco10b72]

Interesting vid Bruce. I noticed the Chinese arm was longer than the other. Could this also influence the strength of it, ie would shorter arms be better at resisting crashes. Could this also be why mini quads are more robust than normal sized quads, hexas & octos & therefore better for racing & hardcore flying. Just a thought. Also what were the 2 extra holes in the Chinese arm for.?

[@LionSilverVideos]

OMG! people skip to 5:50 if you don't want to hear a rant about what other people think...

[@squarethecircle9474]

Nice. The good stuff is good though

[@mickclitheroe8585]

I'd love to see you on "Top gear"

[@HiFlyer371]

Well presented Bruce. Great Britain's Comet commercial jet failed because of its square windows. That's way all planes have oval windows now.

[@codypalm]

Your a logical thinker, and that's why I love the videos you post. Not always opinion, always true logical facts.

[@fshshszahha5474]

He is also a messie.

[@georgehorwell4271]

I am just getting in to quads. I found you on KZbin and I have spent the last couple of weeks watching all of your reviews and rants. You sir are simply awesome! Thank you! If I ever make it back to kiwi land I would love to buy you lunch!

[@scusty1]

Made me laugh when you talked about GEOMETRY, reminds me of my missus one and only joke she knows ! Question = What is Geometry ? Answer = (Stand up and put your arms out) and say " GEE I'M A TREE ! HA HA lol !! Just a bit of useless information for you. Cheers Steve

[@lgrip1lgrip178]

now thats funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@dtragic]

LOL! Ah man you too hard to let these cats get you like this. I can hear it in your voice. You the OG of this shiit. Just keep doing what your doing man!! Thank you for reals...

[@HomeDistiller]

just buy a sheet of 3mm carbon and make stronger replacements.. thats my plan,,, drill a few holes and do some band sawing. and i'll have an arm stronger than the blackout at the length i want

[@Stephen30853]

A sheet of carbon fibre 500mm x 500mm x 3mm is around AU$180.00. Need to make a few frames at that price. I've thought about doing the same thing.

[@HomeDistiller]

you need to look harder (like ebay?) i got a 300mm*200mm*3 for $28

[@BenPortmanlewes]

HomeDistiller Don't buy carbon fiber from ebay, it's shyte, trust me. If it's very expensive, it's not shyte, but you might aswell go to your local (if in U.K can't be more than 40 miles!!) boat yard and get off cuts.

[@BlackoutTheDrunk]

CF dust is bad stuff, wear a good face mask (something a spray painter would use)

[@HomeDistiller]

Ben Portman the sheets I bought have been fine... Mirror smooth great weave.. Better than the stuff the original frame was made with

[@Cess182sn]

I don't believe you are biased with your reviews (far from it) but I think your 'product descriptions' gives the impression you are. Whenever you talk about the non Chinese versions you refer to them by their model name, when you talk about the Chinese models you refer to them as 'Chinese knock offs'.

[@xjet]

Cess182sn That's mainly because in the case of the brand-name products, there is *one* manufacturer. In the case of the Chinese products there appear to be quite a few manufacturers, all creating these things independently, to different standards and using different materials (as witnessed by the variations in the four frames I have here in front of me). Thus, to give them a collective title is a far more accurate way to represent them.

[@arongatt]

Isn't not what most of them are ? Knock offs ... What's wrong with telling the truth

[@cuddles6938]

Most Chinese products are copies of other products Patented and Sold under US and European names. A lot of the Chinese sellers are students in dorm rooms trying to make a buck. You can go to Shenzen and tell them what processor, etc you want in a tablet and they grab bits and pieces and put it together. That is not considered a BRAND product, thats a hodge podge.

[@Cess182sn]

Nothing at all wrong with telling the truth. My point is that 'language used' is extremely important when you become a credible reviewer

[@cuddles6938]

Bruce is just as credible and he is mature enough to not be a douche bag.

[@blackmennewstyle]

The people who were upset about your point of view with chinese stuffs, were angry because you repeated a million of times in your video "crappy chinese stuffs" and some of them were asian with probably some chinese descending and i think they understood your point as you made an generalization for every china products and chinese people are cheated on us. Imagine if someone says the same with "crappy new zealand stuffs", I am sure most of you will be upset too. Anyway you are right with this product, it has not a high quality standard but for the price, it does the job and many people will happy with that. At the same time, perfectionist like you can not really accept it. My opinion is just, China always gives us alternatives when companies like ImmersionRC/Fatshark cheating on us with their over-priced chinese products. Some other companies like foxtechFPV, BEVRC, Hobbyking give us also alternatives with some of their good chinese products and it's a very good thing for our Hobby. And for me, the ZMR250 is absolutely another very good chinese alternatives :)

[@1980nizam]

xjet please reply..i wanna see ur opinion, although i am not Chinese..i quite agree what blackmennewstyle said...

[@alishanmao]

I agree with Blackmennewstyle here. If one product is bad does not mean that all Chinese products are bad. This is right Bruce, in your previous videos lately you have been very racist about Chinese products :D you need to loosen up a bit old man :D or is the grumpiness getting you? :D I am flying a Chinese 250 Pro and have had many crashes, including a new video coming soon where i had the toughest crash and the whole quad was spinning like a Propeller, Battery came off, Low voltage meter was 10 meters away, my Mobius flew itself spinning like a prop and went few meters away. But honestly not a single prop break, not a single crack on any arm. right after crash I had my InventioHD glasses on and I walked up to the quad with recording on to show honestly how well the Quad took the crash and not a crack. Does that means still Crappy Chinese stuff? This time you have to accept it Bruce, you have been unfair by saying crappy Chinese Stuff a lot in your these videos. I have commented before on your video, that in China, you can spend money and get better quality stuff than anywhere else, and you can buy cheap and cry Crappy Chinese stuff. So I believe you bought a cheap frame, for which you got the Quality that fits the money you paid for it. I paid a good amount of money for my Chinese 250 Pro Frame and I bought two of them thinking I will crash and break arms, but really my 2nd frame is sitting in box brand new and it will cuz seeing how tough and high quality this frame is, i do not think my 2nd frame will have chance to come out of box. So My grumpy old friend :) we need to see from you an explanation that you have been a bit over this time :D about crappy chinese stuff. ;) will we see any correction or opinion?

[@gegore]

alishanmao Notice Bruce flies Chinese radios? He doesn't hammer them all the time probably because he can't get free Futaba's, Airtronics, etc given to him.....right Bruce? The truth sort of sneaks out doesn't it?

[@alishanmao]

G E Gore I do not get free radios if you are pointing that out. Futaba does not send free radios. We buy at full retail prices all these radios. The only radio I got for free was FlySky 9X aka Turnigy 9x. and I hated it due to the fact it was difficult to program mixing and not much for failsafe. I was not biased in my videos and later whenever anyone wrote to me I told them it was not worthy unless they want a cheap radio. We are old friends of Bruce, and all his viewers including me trust all his reviews, but in these Chinese frame videos, there has been a feeling that not only I but others also felt that Bruce is kinda putting these down for no reason. We are not here to bash him, we are here to tell him that one product can be cheap and bad but that does not mean all CHinese products are in same category. If he says Crappy Chinese stuff, than all his radio reviews become biased where he says Turnigy is nice, Trannis is nice, etc. You get my point. our intentions are that Bruce does not get the impressions of doing biased reviews. that was only the point. we still and will trust his reviews. everyone makes mistakes, I have made mistakes in past too. so its not a big deal buddy. I am sure Bruce is going to agree to these points too.

[@davidk6720]

I'm also noticing the use of the word 'Chinese' as if it were a single disreputable manufacturer, while the "good ones" are named by their actual names, e.g. FrSky as mentioned. If the default word for low-value is "Chinese" then despite the reasonable explanation in the video, Bruce sounds very ignorant.

[@WorksopGimp]

That's why planes have round window too

[@tyrannical]

Bruce should have ordered from Banggood - where we know the kit is quality. Instead he's bought it from an unknown ebay seller, and his parts are subpar. Check on rcgroups and other places, everyone who bought from banggood received parts that were as good if not better than the US built frame.

[@Schiksie]

Good vid but still i love the ZMR250 frame and the hexa is even better. For the money its a great quad for beginners and if you buy some spare arms with it you can have fun for years :-). I have crashed mine several times and still have not seen one arm brake from the 250 or hexa. It's very lightweight frame and with some tigers or cobra they are so fast :-)

[@ChickenHawk110]

I purchased one of those Nighthawk 250 frames that cost $40 US shipped. Similar design as the rest of them, pretty much a clone of the MXP230, including vibration isolated mobius plate, and even has room for 6" props for more punch out. The arms are 5mm carbon/G10 hybrid, they will NOT break in any plausible crash. Weighs 180 grams. Motor mounts need user modification to use 3mm bolts, as hole pattern only has 2mm holes. Buy and review one of them frames Bruce, it is probably the best VALUE frame to date in the mini quads.

[@jchtr3ac]

Your reviews have never led me wrong. The products you judged good---were good. I have the AXN, a Turnigy 9XR, lots of HK servos and esc's, and FRSKY Tanranis and RX's. They all work as you said---not always perfect, with the flaws you pointed out, but well enough, and priced for value. Cheers mate, John

[@1974charrua]

Na, Chinese frames are better!!!! don't argue with me ,(joking LOL) If blackout had there shi** sorted with stock then most people wouldn't go buy one of the endless supply of Chinese copy's for a 1/4 of the price . same goes for the good Brand motors( out of stock) so you buy the rcx for $9 each Who wants to wait 3 months for stock ? get real there not that good . I'm happy with my Chinese copy's and I think most people are , if an arm brakes I will buy a new frame $28 .

[@karmakazi219]

Don't waste your time and effort defending yourself against KZbin commenters. It's not very becoming and as you said, "there are people out there you just can't please." If you ever do break a Blackout arm, I'd be interested to see a side-by-side macro comparison with the broken ZMR250 arm. The broken carbon fiber on the ZMR250 looks a little dodgy. It looks like it delaminated rather aggressively. I have a feeling if people could see inside the Blackout carbon, they would better understand where their extra money is going.

[@DannyThompson54]

Thanks for a nice plain language explanation of the design influences on the strength or otherwise of the ZMR air frame. I am flying one and have yet to dump it into terra firma with any great force. But if or when I do, and I snap a rotor arm, I shall not get too bent out of shape about it. Replacements are cheap enough and I really need to learn to crash much less :-)

[@KennethElstonBAK]

LOL, u cant win for losing and lose for winning, huh? Face it, as you already know, your just an "grumpy old man" standing on your soap box trying to tell all us whippersnappers what we should and shouldn't do (free knowledge I say)!! I wish I had listened to the older guys I grew up with when they would tell me about things to watch out for in life. I've learned my lessons and have many more to learn, there are some of us out here who listen to what you say Mr. Grumpy LOL. Have a good one!

[@OONought]

At $25 for the chinese frame and $149 for the Blackout you should expect the chinese frame to be inferior. Value for money wise, You could buy 6 whole chinese frames for the price of a Blackout, and I have seen my chinese frame hit a tree and ricochet into a hardpacked blue metal drive...... it was still upright so I just kept flying. Some would say I was lucky, some would say your mate whose broke was unlucky. I have also hit the top of a 4m tree at about 40kmh and cartwheeled into the ground. When I got there there was a clear indentation of the whole front of the quad and the 2 props that boke were embedded in the ground, not even a mark on the frame. I flew it sideways in to a concrete pot plant at about 30kmh and it struck the frame in between the arms, didn't even leave a mark I could find. So I spose what I'm saying is that they aren't all crap, and the Blackout should totally be better ..... for 6 times the price. .

[@1101nz]

Oh dear, your red pen must be a "cheap Chinese knockoff"....obviously you're a shill for the chinese red pen manufacturers as well ....nah just kidding :-)

[@vanhuet74]

As i have bought a 250 knock off frame i just watched the build video again. I noticed when comparing the knock off to the Original Qav frame the qav frame has got some rather large holes in the arms. Making that a very weak point??add the fact that the arms and body plate are one and if one should break you will have to replace the whole plate? How would the stress lines go on that arm and that can not be a good thing for a rolls royce priced frame?? Keep up the great informing videos please!!

[@analog56x]

I trust your reviews Bruce. Ive been watching your videos long enough to know that if a product is good, you'll let us know. If a product is crap, you'll let us know. Doesnt matter who manufactured it, or how it came to be in your possession, you tell it like it is. Keep up the great work Bruce! Cant wait to see your review/comparison for the cheepie chinese motors vs big name motors for multirotors :)

[@zevi]

Thanks for your reviews mate. Regardless of the haters I appreciate your reviews.

[@nigelholland1811]

I don't know anything about carbon fibre Bruce. However I was wondering if you broke an expensive arm as well in a stress type test, do you think there would be a difference in weave quality too?

[@roylecopters]

i havent read through the post , so sorry if anyone else as pointed this out . the 2 arms are different lengths which will bring the lever effect in to play ,so the shorter 1 (black out ?) will be stronger for that fact alone ,but will have a shorter prop range if everything else in the frame bodies is the same .

[@IFlyMillennium]

Great explanation of a not so simple concept, love these in-depth videos, kept it up! -S

[@hiwayM9]

I have absolutely no reserves or questions in my mind whatsoever regarding your integrity or honesty in review. None.

[@DaedalusProps]

Thank you so much for your intelligent, yet understandable explanation! I'm looking to get into FPV racing and knowing certain material strengths and weaknesses as well as what buyers to trust and not trust has been profoundly helpful.

[@geanblaylock]

The blackout has shorter arms which makes a shorter fulcrum when force it's applied to the motor arms edge.......

[@P44man]

My brother has this frame.Yesterday he accidentally disarmed his motors at ~70m high. The quad came straight down and fell like a stone in to some ~20cm high grass. No damage at all.(not even a shattered prop lol). Thats not to say this frame is indestructible, or even as good as a blackout, but you cant draw conclusions from a single incident.

[@SoundShunter72]

Nearly any frame is indestructible when it's dropped on and parallel to a flat surface. It's all about the size of the area that has to endure the force of an impact. You know this, if you drop your phone and it lands on a corner, you are more likely to find your screen broken. But a good design is made to withstand these forces and prevent stress to build up at any weak spots. The only conclusion you can draw from such accident is that the frame landed in an unfortunate position.

[@oliverg98]

Bruice I think you are overlooking this :)

[@TheScottsawesomeart]

love to watch your revues bruce , so keep it my friend!

[@Nate0624]

You're great at what you do. Thank you.

[@oth4l4]

Dont fly what you can't afford to loose

[@analog56x]

I trust your reviews Bruce. Ive been watching your videos long enough to know that if a product is good, you'll let us know. If a product is crap, you'll let us know. Doesnt matter who manufactured it, or how it came to be in your possession, you tell it like it is. Keep up the great work Bruce! Cant wait to see your review/comparison for the cheepie chinese motors vs big name motors for multirotors :)

[@Cyberdactyl]

Good analysis, as far as it went, but sorry Bruce, that's NOT a "Design Flaw"@0:50. Generally a 'Design Flaw' is a legal definition for litigation. At most, it's a "poor design". A 'design flaw' COULD be somewhat justified if the quad was specifically "designed" to survive, without damage, the impact the quad experienced and was promoted to do such. For example, according to your definition, if I had a 3mm boom with of the same thickness and shape of the BO boom and a motor mounting hole to the edge of boom of 8mm, which could survive an impact above and beyond what the Blackout's boom of 6mm of edge of boom to mounting hole, could survive, I could label the Black Out as a having a "design flaw". To me, the elephant in the room, that you completely failed to mention in the video, is the carbon fiber quality.

[@PauMallol]

The matrix is as important, especially here that seems it delaminated.

[@cuddles6938]

Good luck getting money from a Chinese company because you crashed your quad and want to blame someone else.

[@cbolles12600]

Cyberdactyl That crap still rolls down hill. From what you're saying we could say it still has a "design flaw". Is Carbon Fiber Quality not an aspect of the product's design? He wasn't looking to completely bash it and call it crap. He simply just stated one very obvious flaw he could see. He just simply stated what he needed to drive his point for his review. If he went on to the quality of the Carbon Fiber, his critics would have went wild.

[@ArionRaine]

Stating THE, ZMR frame is incorrect. There are MANY MANY factories making this frame, at MANY MANY different quality levels. There are some that are going to be sub-par and likely break easier than others. However, there are MANY that are just as good as the "expensive" frames. Just buy from a reputable seller. Dont buy from a no-name ebay store (there are some good ones on ebay though). Considering the numbers that the ZMR (from various manufacturers) has been sold in, I would say the ratio of those that have broken is far less than that of the "expensive" frames. Looking around online, I have seen just as many "expensive" frame arms broken as I have seen ZMR arms broken. Bruce, its unfortunate you have had bad luck, however your relentlessness against this frame is quite unreasonable when you consider all the variables. Can it be better, of course. Is it a good value for the money,absolutely.

[@autotechnica]

I love your videos. Just the right amount of technical information without being overwhelming. I actually swear by FrSky transmitter and receiver products now solely based on your reviews and recommendations. I haven't had a single hiccup. I love Frsky so much now I actually gutted a Spektrum transmitter and replaced it with FrSky DIY module. I found it to be more reliable than overpriced Spektrum products. I'm an RC helicopter flyer though, so unfortunately most of your reviews are about planes or quads. However, I still enjoy your product reviews regardless. Keep up the good work!

[@DavidTelesPortugal]

You are not a engineer?

[@TheCrazyInventor]

Bruce, you are one of the most sincere and honest youtubers I'm subscribed to (together with mjlorton). I believe your reviews 100%. I take your word for it if you say that these frames are crap quality. You've even proved it by showing it's many defects on camera!

[@basstrom88]

Great description Bruce. Another big issue that many frame designers seem to ignore is that carbon fibre composites are generally anoisotropic, i.e. the material properties are not the same in all directions. This is especially with fabric layups that only use 0, +-45 and 90 degree layups of woven fabrics (as I am guessing these are). Composite plies have maximum strength parallel to the fibres. Because of this, in those areas of stress concentrations, there are usually less than half of the fibres actually aligned with the stress. The other fibres will be perpendicular (and thus have lengths equal to the width of those thin sections, >5mm) and barely contribute to the strength at all. To maximise strength, the distance from the hole to the edge of the plate should be at least three times the hole diameter. Or unidirectional fibres could be aligned with the stresses instead of 0/90 degree woven fabrics. So all in all, using thin sections of woven fabric composites is a bad idea - even worse than thin sections of isotropic metals.

[@jimawhitaker]

If you said puppy's are cute someone would take issue.... of course you know that better then me because you're more exposed. It's been that way since the internet, I've got posts from 1997 where I'm being ripped over nothing ;-)

[@DeadmiXSoft]

Hi Bruce. When I look at the turnigy lipo and many many other things, there is written :made in China. Why should the copters be as bad as you think.? I order now a product from China, wait a month and will see what I get. Because I have not so much money to by a "real" one, I have to by one of those (crappy) copters. I hope they are a littlebit more better than I've heard ;)

[@helotaxi]

All that being said, you can look at the two different arms and see that they are a vastly different spec of carbon weave as well. That probably plays an even bigger role. Compounding the problem of inferior material is the quality of the machining on the ZMR holes and the rough edges left. Those rough edges create additional stress risers and the material is already partially delaminated from the slots being machined. Made from the same material and with the same quality of machining, you'd probably not see too much difference in strength between the two designs.

[@pyronaught]

The stronger arm is using a more rugged (and costly) twill weave on the carbon fiber too. Other factors that also effect strength are the type of epoxy used, mat thickness and number of the laminations. Chinese will cut corners on every possible aspect of it just to get the price down.

[@sputniksam]

Thank you Bruce, another example of taking a complex subject and making it easier to understand. In nature you never see straight lines and man made things that get described as being "organic" in form are also inherently strong. Car manufacturing has evolved from angular boxes to flowing panels not just for aerodynamic reasons but because there is increased strength while using less and lighter materials. Regards. Nidge

[@startazz]

Who in there right mind thinks a $30/50 quad is going to be as good as the ones that cost $150/200? Bruce we as people will always make up our own mind no matter what we are told,it's just how we are made i guess but your videos do help out a lot of people no matter what,i've been flying the HK mini quads and love them even their new ones which look like some of the well known ones,i've crashed the FPV250 a few times and it's still going strong,haven't crashed the other ones yet but i doubt those arms will take much in a way of a crash,but i sort of new that before i brought it,so if it does break in a crash i doubt i'll be bloody crying about it lol.

[@AceBullion]

Well done on another video, its because people like yourself that have helped me teach others for over 2 decades. I 100% agree with your view and respect you for giving the truth. Well done. Jon

[@Eiooeek]

"Whenever & wherever there's a demand for something (Well, maybe cheap stuffs?.); there's a supply coming together to form a market for that."

[@Hoverbot1TV]

Twill weave of the blackout cf is stronger as well. Thinner I use 5k fibre at work on speedboat parts and foils. Very hard to buy 5k since there are far fewer factories and 3k is cheaper. Good review Bruce,

[@sandryseibert]

You have to count the number of layers of carbon fiber used. Most of times the reduced number of layers cause much more effect than an ordinary material reduction on stress points. My eyes aren't good enough to count right now, but my Blackout arm has 15 layers.

[@NzAviator]

Could you put the black out arms on this quad. The mounting holes look about the same

[@xjet]

nz3rdsqr They're not quite the same.

[@NzAviator]

***** ah bugger would have been a good work around.

[@CamaroRick]

I crashed mine from over 100ft onto rocks, Nothing broke on the frame. bought 2 frames but never ended up needing the other one yet. I have a vid of it to prove it. Its the 3mm carbon sandwich frame

[@danmaxwell994]

You pay for what you get

[@MrMatVids]

+Xjet A great informative video. You don't have to defend yourself, just keep doing what you do. You do great work.

[@agentbertram4769]

There are a lot of young men, sitting in their bedroom in their mothers house (wearing an anorak over their pyjamas), who are very outspoken on the inter-web-net. Very few of them would talk the way they do if they were standing in front of you. The separation makes them feel safe and gives them confidence to behave like a tit. Ignore them for they are ignorant.

[@TheEPROM9]

It is a shame you have to make these disclaimers. Recently got a Hubsan X4, so much fun, plus can survive falls from some insane heights.

[@kevinsraydatme]

Mate, don`t listen to the haters.. I have learnt so much from your videos> THANK YOU VM. As a noob to RC, I probably would have given up because it was all too overwhelming. Figuring motors/props.ESCs, etc, etc.. But your videos were easy to understand with the level of tech knowledge just right. Not too heavy, no too light... AGAIN, love your videos, keep up the GREAT work. BTW, this video was great to understand why my SK450 arms always break near motor....

[@ZackyRaz]

i broke my QAV250 frames faster than my Myrcmart frame......worst part, I have to buy the whole base plate.....

[@benl8762]

result for me from your video is not worth spend extra money chose BLACKOUT over ZMR, ZMR arms easily to break compare to BLACKOUT's it's because it's arm longer than BLACKOUT's, their thickness pretty identical, and moto mount style will not effect arms strength, at price point I would spend some more money go for a LUMENIER QAV250 over BLACKOUT no doubt.

[@everfreeeeee]

what if i buy the ZMR250 and replace the Blackout H original arms on it ? ^^

[@MatthewEvansFPV]

Inferior or not, if it costs 2/10th's of the cost, you can crash a way more before it'll cost you more than the expensive frames :]

[@johnnieyaz]

If you want a strong and beautiful frame you can build as a tricopter or quadcopter try the Armattan CF Mini. You will not be disappointed!

[@5464348643]

Good stuff. Bet that extra arm area extending beyond the motors helps too, by keeping more of the impact on the end of the arm, rather that on motor itself -- thus avoiding the mechanical leverage of the motor adding pressure against the weakest point.

[@YouCallitPiracy]

Hi Bruce, I really enjoy watching your videos giving so much honest information. Now I've been looking into building my own quadcopter. However the thing is I need high efficiency for the specific purpose I'm looking into. That is making aerial footage of the dunes, forests and flower fields and of course for relative long distance fun flying. The terrain has the great advantage of being very flat thus I should have little problems on even very high frequency transceiver signals. First I'll start of with a little introduction of myself I'm a second year student at the Hague university studying applied physics. I'm familiar with ordering most of my stuff trough China(Taobao) as they can be a really good deal (or a very bad one) I recently received a package containing 3 new Chinese branded lab powersupplies. As here in NL the brands like Delta, Voltcraft, Philips and Tekronix are so expensive a simple student would go broke buying one. (I work 5 evenings a week so it doesn't really apply to me I have the money but what I don't have is a hole in my pocket) After checking your review on your Chinese power supply I decided to make the gamble and buy 3 units. A 30V5A, 60V5A and a 100V2A. They came in so I started testing them and the results were pretty good 1% deviation from the actually output voltage under full load.(granted this was measured with a cheap multimeter so that might be the deviation) I tested the full load by "shorting" the leads granted there was a 1m carbon fiber 3mm tube so my wires wouldn't burn and I simply had a heating element. (not really shorting as there was a higher resistance to compensate for the lower resistance in the wires we wouldn't want the full 60V over a thin wire would we :P) It may seem a bit strange that I bought a 60V let alone a 100V one to boot. Well the reason I bought the 60V one was because I needed something that I could use for ohmic heating a metal hydride project I'm working on. The 100V one I bought because I have a 120Hz 4K UHD panel here for AUO which has a backlight that needs at least 70V. (the AUO engineers thought it was funny to put all LEDs in series I suppose(which is freaking stupid considering they will have deviations meaning some LEDs will receive more current than other LEDs due to)) I was looking into getting those 18Dbi antenna's that you have on your bench in some videos they should do an excellent job I might even hook some up to my Wi-Fi router though I'm a bit worried I will degrade other people's signals. The reason to get that one is because it is only 45 yuan which is about 7 euro a really great deal sure there is a big shipping markup where I order them but still really good. (D-LENP is the brand seems like they offer a lot of interesting stuff) So the question is how good is it if any at all. And will you be doing a video on it? I also looked into some Chinese motors now they were very expensive and I'm not sure whether I want to wreck such things though that is unlikely to happen seeing how rough jobs most electro-motors can do. But at a thrust of 0,18 kg they were getting an efficiency of 18g/W and that was with 33 cm diameter blades (13 inch for non metric using people here) The brand is Crazy Motors and I really don't know what to expect are they lies or are they just not discovered yet. Maybe I should get some myself once I build my quad :) The rest of the things don't seem that hard to do sure it won't be perfect since it is the first time perfection comes with time I suppose. But I think I could build a really decent one I'm good enough with electronics to know what I'm doing. (though I still lack a pair of decent bench multimeters and an oscilloscope) My first thing to note was that bigger slower turning props would be more efficient. (obviously a single prop with a tail prop is more efficient and so is a tricopter but hard to control) Also it seemed to me like buying those special battery packs for RC is a waste of money the lipo cells I have are higher density in both energy/volume as in energy/weight. Volumetric and mass are great however the discharge rate is limited so I need to have them in parallel not a problem really. For the controller board a Naze32 should do. For the frame I'm undecided I think a aerodynamic frame will do better actually I know it should do better if done properly but the complexity of producing such a frame would make that alone a huge assignment Many challenges to overcome into making an ultra efficient model ECalc proved very useful for rough estimates but won't do in practice. Also they don't carry most products I'm looking into. I typed this in a rush so it might be a little poor structured but today is the day my favorite computer turn based strategy serie (Civ) get's a followup and I have limited time to play as I have exams next week.

[@pixelpusher3589]

my zmr250 v1 breaks cause i crash it. I bought two frames, carbon version and have gone through two arms so far.......not bad considering I've never flown fpv before and am flying acro solo. zmr250 is made to a price.......what do we expect. I've had about ten flights so far with about 4-5 crashes...........worth every cent of my $150 or so dollars. thanks Bruce!

[@Punkalflufen]

Love your reviews Bruce, I know you are going to be impartial. I know you have heaps of mini quads already but could you please review the RD230 mini quad. I have the RD230 naked, its a great little quad and I feel is the is the best value mini quad on the market. I paid $80 for the frame with arms for 5 inch props and its light and strong. Finally when are we going to get some Taranis mod videos? Thanks

[@jeffreynichols]

Bruce, don't listen to the haters. You have fans out here. Keep up the great work. Your channel is in my top 3 favorites on KZbin.

[@YaniT991]

Hmmm, those that pooh pooh your critique of crap products probably have a TradeMe listing for 6000mAh 18650's. Speaking of which, why not do a review of some of these sub-40gr power houses of 'best quality' capacity and then we can name and shame?

[@jameshazou]

Excellent brief. I recently built 8 carbon fibre reinforcement plates for TMotor U7's originally mounted to Chinese supplied aluminium motor mounts that were proving to be a weak design. I kept the CF plates simple and had a local CNC engineering company cut them for me with professional tools. The A4 size 3mm CF plate cost me GBP75.00. The engineering work to cut the plates and drill the mounting holes cost me a further GBP100.00. Together with the original mounts, they have proved to be extremely strong. It was an expensive project, but when the large octocopter frame, gimbal and camera, to which they are mounted, is worth well over GBP9000.00 it was worth every penny. By the way, the large octocopter frame is Chinese made and generally of a good design. However, the reality is that, in particular for commercial use, the Chinese manufacturers need to appreciate that consistent good build quality is the key to success, coupled with good customer and product support. Some companies are better at understanding this than others. I have no bias one way or the other. I want value for money and reliability; I do not care where it comes from. Some European, US and NZ manufacturers charge absolutely ludicrous prices for components, just because they think they can. The Chinese manufacturers add cost effective competition. However, following up with them to get product support can be inconsistent. What the Chinese manufacturers need to understand clearly is that if a component is inconsistent, be it an electronic, or a structural component, if it is found to be unreliable it will almost certainly now be banned for commercial use by national aviation authorities. This is certainly the case within the EU. Therefore, putting unreliable products on the open market, especially for commercial use, is pointless. It does not help either the manufacturer or the customer.

[@rpicinic]

Great job! I'd like to add the Chinese parts are a combination of badly designed parts with bad workmanship that are not even good grade carbon fibre. The Blackouts are made of 3K weave Carbon fibre mat'l the standard for good quality components. I've bought plenty of Chinese great quality that last. As well the same in the opposite. The old rule always applies: "You get what you pay for!" Great reviews. Keep them coming.

[@slappomatthew]

the real problem is there are many sources making this "ZMR frames" and there are 4-5 known versions of the frame out there. There are quality true 100% CF frames which are just as good as the blackout and there are black fiberglass amd CF/FG sandwhich frames being sold as true CF which really arent. So its a bit of a luck of the draw at what you get. I started with a no name ZMR I bought on ebay before I knew about it and it was a cf/fg sandwich. I flew it a few times and even crashed it and it was fine. Ended up selling to a friend and he is still flying it. I bought a REAL CF one from MRM in CA and its the real deal. very nice frame.

[@PsychoFlyer1]

Nice job covering quality vs. value. I'm a FrSky Fanatic with my Taranis due in great part to your studious research on the form factor and the frequency analysis. Keep up the good work. I would certainly like to see FrSky fix the problems with slow update of their GPS sensor. It's almost unusable in its present form.

[@Paulivewire]

Everything comes from China! We sell our scrap metal to the Chinese from bankrupt Detroit and buy it back for twice the price,,,,,from china!! my tv I'm using to type this post and the keyboard and keeps going and going and going all made in china. BTW I think your videos are great, I did an er 9x upgrade using your video thanks for making it easy.

[@wb8ujb]

Very good explanation! From experience I've always made my projects with gentle radii as apposed to sharp corners. Now I know why i've done this. It's a shame that you had to take time to defend your test results. However, I'm glad you did. Very informative. Thank You....

[@orangedog1801]

Sorry if this was already addressed- I didn't look at all 203 comments- first- Bruce, great work keep it up! I lover your videos. 2nd- I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong or trying to start an argument. Okay- Look at the weave of the Chinese arm versus the blackout. The weave on the Chinese arm is smaller and aligned. The Black the weave is larger and staggered. Common sense tells me the staggered arm would be stronger. yes? no?

[@KLaviator]

you will never go wrong with the better brand mini quads. Why would you want to spend so much time sitting down doing repair works rather than enjoy flying. Now that you know its easy to break, you will fly more carefully, then you might as well get a 450 quad fly slow and steady. the cost of repairing it / modification , at the end of the day will be more expensive than buying the branded ones. Blackout, Xhover and Lumenier rocks.

[@charlescarson2993]

Bruce, You are not an engineer, don’t sweat it. You are what I call a self taught engineer and learned by experience - good for you. You are teaching a cool technology to a huge number of people and keeping people from making expensive mistakes because the “engineers” are loath to give up the sacred information that you freely dispense. My thought is people doing what you do is the future of education. C. Carson PE

[@liambowers666]

Hi Bruce, I'm surprised you also didn't mention the fact that even if they were the same widths, the weave quality is inferior. Also the longer arms give more leverage for it to snap at the weak points! However, I have certainly learnt the basic principles of stress dissipation/behaviour, something I hadn't really considered in depth before when doing home builds! Apart from the obvious of less material is weaker and 90 degree corners are likely to break more. Thanks!

[@gubernator46]

Sorry to admit this, but by using a countersunk screw in the motor slots, you actually provoked the delamination of the carbon plate! (Bad tongues would say this was done by purpose...) With the counter sunk screws, you created a perfect three dimensional tension state... With a simple washer and a button head screw, you would have drastically decreased the break-possibility by half.

[@Stephen30853]

I notice on the blackout arm that the hole is larger than the slot. This will also help to reduce stress. I had a look on a carbon fibre supplier's site and a way to tell if it's carbon fibre or fibreglass cloth is to sand the edge lightly. The dust should be grey if it's carbon fibre. It also shouldn't flex. The cloth on the blackout arm also appears to have a wider mesh. Your reviews are great and very informative. I also enjoy watching the Forrest fliers. Keep it up.

[@BlackoutTheDrunk]

Grey is correct. Some dodgy suppliers dye G10 (Fiberglass) black and then finish it with CF Weave. The result is a fake CF that's as strong and heavy as G10. You can use Acid to test, if the black comes off then it's fake. Carbon content in the graphite plays a big role. More carbon = stronger material = harder to cut

[@gegore]

BlackoutTheDrunk Would you explain your statement that the carbon content in the graphite plays a big role. Sorry my friend but graphite is NOTHING BUT CARBON so your statement sounds so Madison Ave like it is ridiculous.

[@MeshJedi]

BlackoutTheDrunk Still your fake carbon fiber, with a basic fiberglass board, with laminated CF on top and bottom, while not as strong as real CF, will be significantly stronger than just regular fiberglass board. The thin layer of CF on each side will add a lot of strength. Kind of like how foamboard without the paper is flexible and weak, but add a thing sheet of paper on each side, or better yet, fiberglass it, and it becomes very very strong.

[@cbolles12600]

G E Gore What Black out the drunk meant was "More Carbon Fiber Material = stronger material = harder to cut". In other words the more it is to being just and only carbon fiber the stronger it will be or the less of the G10 is used and more Carbon Fiber is used the more stronger it will be.

[@lievendm4125]

I've ordered the chinese frame, it will be for my first quadcopter and i wanted to build it myself, so i think from my perspective the value will be good enough to learn , so i can improve my quadcopters when i'm confident flying and building my own? Is this a good way to descripe the value of this frame? It's cheap but indeed less strong but for my first build more than enough? And btw, should it be possible to make the arms a bit stronger? By bolting on a little piece under the arm where the most stress is? your weight will go up but your strengt also? Like your reviews on the 250 miniquads!

[@YaniT991]

Bruce, us believers (the majority of your viewers) have had to sit through several minutes of justification bought on by a few tossers (the minority trolls). They have effectively succeeded in their endeavors. Perhaps a short carefully edited clip could be made that is succinct and to the point. Something that could be linked to in future videos for the twats who need convincing. I don't know what the last 80% of this video contains because I paused it at 3m33s to write this and now will move onto the next subscription video in my list.

[@bobmaxiao]

The weaving direction of the carbon fibre also matters a lot. the original has a 45 degree weaved carbon fibre and the Chinese one got 90 degree. On the other hand, there should always be some cheap Chinese shops for those who cannot afford the fun of the original quad. TBH, the price of the original quad is seriously a bit high for the materials only. But words back, I am not the designer of the quad, I cannot decide how much it should be. So juz let it be....

[@benjahnz]

You might of been a bit unlucky with that crash Bruce and after all, it was just one instance of the arm breaking. Over the last few days I've been flying the snot out of my ZMR carbon fibre mini quad. I crashed it at full speed into trees and flew it into the ground so hard that one of the arms embedded itself 6cm into the soil and the quad stuck out like a dagger. The only thing that broke was props of which I destroyed 9 of in the last 3 days..

[@garyrowlands8537]

Hello and well done for presenting the various clips on products you have reviewed and projects you have undertaken. I have actually only viewed your clips over the past days and feel that some comment needs to be made to hopefully enhance your videos and keep people coming to you. There is a trend in your videos, specially those more recently, maybe since fly New Zealand have had their conflict with you. This trend is to defend yourself to a point which negatively effects the experience of viewing the clip content itself. In this clip for instance , very nearly 6 minutes of 16 is spent saying the same thing over and over and talking to us as though we are incredibly naive. I suggest that most people come, or came for the product and or project, not life lessons or complaining. Again, great technical content... and with great respect, if possible from a happier standpoint.

[@GadgetMart]

Bruce, could you please do a review of LemonRX DSM2 and DSMX receivers please. Customer service is superb, they are half the price of FrSky and really do deserve a review. Thanks.

[@1101nz]

Similar to issues with De Havilland Comet's square windows ?? www.cracked.com/article_19623_6-small-math-errors-that-caused-huge-disasters.html

[@sbodi4d]

Bruce, You are my go to guy for how things work. Don't be swayed by what people think. Do what you do, and keep it honest, that is what I come here to see. You explain everything in layman's terms, and I trust your opinion. Thanks for all you do, and keep up the good work!

[@Stephen30853]

When flying dual line trick kites I've damaged a few carbon fibre spars. Makes a sickening crack sound when it happens and the dollar signs start to appear in your mind. Found the spars split length wise. Cutting new ones to length I used a fine tooth hacksaw blade but I figure to cut out quad frames I would need a tungsten tipped router blade and to wear a respirator. A vacuum at hand would also be needed as it would be a lot of dust. If made with decent carbon fibre surely the laminations would split instead of breaking as those arms did. Then with a bit of epoxy and compressed in a vice they should be able to be repaired.

[@RiccoStarrz]

lol you just posted a video showing it's durability and here's this. Guys I crashed from 90ft and took zero damage. This review isn't actual scenarios it's opinion. These frames are strong. I've crashed a shit load even cartwheeled right in the arms this is crap go buy one it's affordable and durable.

[@one4stevo]

One thing i always admire about your video is that you give a no BS review and no stupid unboxings. not your fault factory made parts are not consistent. unfortunately now you review several of the same items for this very reason. you should be charging us a fee to watch these video Bruce... lol Great job :)

[@caseMasterxL]

I wish you had been my professor at college during stress/strain geometry lectures in Materials ME403. Try understanding that simple property of materials geometry by starting out with hours and hours of differential equations and abstract mathematical theory...

[@christophermorley4572]

Who cares if its possible to break an arm. At the price you can afford two or three frames and that gives you four or eight spare arms! If you manage to break eight arms then you should probably take up another hobby. I also agree with the point that the zmr frame quality varies greatly depending on what manufacturer you get it from. The carbon frame I bought looks superb and is very strong. No flex.

[@wendtb]

Hi Bruce. I'd love to see a video on how to tune mini quads with the naze 32. While I have a friend who's mini quad is perfectly locked in with the naze. I am yet to be able to replicate his results because of a different engine and esc configuration. I would love if you could break the steps down and show us how you would tune them to fly so nicely like in your videos. I'm sure it would popular also, as I can't seem to find any good naze tuning videos other than damn onboards which tell nothing of how to go about it.

[@2crashy545]

I crashed my ZMRs relentlessly for three months without breaking an arm. Mine were sourced from Hong Kong and the quality of the carbon was every bit as good as the more expensive stuff which I also own. But there is a new ZMR out now and perhaps they have looked at this stress concentration issue on the new design?