Queer Coding, Explained | Hidden in Plain Sight

[@Angi3_6]

I hate how fetishized wlw relationships are and mlm relationships are mocked. Either way, it's dehumanizing.

[@mynameisreallycool1]

Me too.

[@quintecence]

They're not in a relationship, they're just good friends 🤦

[@smcphee8499]

Mlm relationships are fetishized too. Look at any fandom

[@yanu..6994]

I would say both are very fetishized. Just by different demographics

[@calyxconcision]

@@yanu..6994 I would say both are mocked, too

[@hallievanoutryve3109]

I’m a queer woman and I didn’t read Frozen 2 as being super gay? I agree with other posters: her character best fits asexual if anything. Or at the very least, a woman who isn’t interested in romance at that point in her life. It’s not always about love or sex!

[@mm4843]

aromantic.

[@comparsa1]

@@mm4843 this!, thank you, im asexual, and im love this headcanon

[@hunterwise5661]

Thank you!!! I'm ace, too. I think Elsa is an ace princess. Why is that bad??? Can we talk about how Hollywood seems to imply the only way to 'complete' yourself is to find a romantic partner.? Raya, however, is DEFINITELY gay. :-).

[@alext3480]

same. i never once looked at Elsa and thought "she could be gay"

[@plastictree7635]

I’m gay and I felt she was gay because she’s like me

[@Allonsy305]

Now Janis & Damien kissing and then going "Ew, No" in Mean Girls is 1000x funnier

[@lashantacurry5978]

The didn't kiss. Janis wouldn't kiss Damien.

[@sophieella7988]

@@lashantacurry5978 they actually did in the end of movie at the dance

[@lashantacurry5978]

@@sophieella7988 oh my gosh you're right! I looked at your comment and went to type a furious rebuttal then remembered the scene and their wiping their sleeves with their lips and was bamboozled.

[@ogcrazycatlady]

LMAO

[@CortexNewsService]

I really liked Damien. He was played by an actual gay man and he kinda blew up stereotypes. Did he care about decorating and divas? Yes. He was also plus sized and dressed in jeans and t-shirts that didn't come from calvin klein.

[@aboutashow]

If there's a Frozen 3 Elsa should stay single. I cried through Frozen 2 because of her acceptance of *herself.* Growing up as a kid who watched movies that told me romantic love was what made me whole, that there's always someone out there for someone, I had to unlearn a whole lot of that. To see that in that movie was so cathartic

[@OllamhDrab]

Depends on how the character goes. (I haven't seen much of those movies, actually, but it wouldn't necessarily be 'contrived' if having gotten a handle on her own self, then there's room for someone else worthy to be in the picture. "Lesbians must always be alone or else turn straight' is another old trope we don't need.)

[@aboutashow]

@@OllamhDrab Stepping out of the movie universe for a sec, we need to be realistic and admit to ourselves that Elsa as a lesbian will likely never be canon, or at least not overtly so. Disney has been incredibly skittish with their LGBT characters and especially because of the globalized movie industry, taking a risk on a lesbian princess for one of their most successful post renaissance franchises would be a miracle Side characters are one thing, but the main character is different. Elsa in a relationship would be Elsa with a man. I'm bisexual and single by choice and I still feel so seen through her story, as I'm sure some ace people do too

[@OllamhDrab]

@@aboutashow Honestly I have nothing to say about their corporate calculations with homophobic-governed marketshares. Just saying the story should *be* what the story *fits,* ...I think they've had a couple movies about her not being straight and not necessarily *needing* a romantic interest, which often is a very good place to be when one may *find* or accept one. Definitely 'Lonely until straight or dead' would ba a bad trope to rehash here and probably cheese everyone else off, but where the character goes ought to be about the character. Not necessarily either of us, assuming you're speaking from an ace point of view. (I mean, I'm *not* an ace but it can be hard to distinguish between me being relatively much less libidinous than average and how they describe their own experiences. Sometimes I think the proliferation of labels can make people on the Internet think labels are obligatory, even for fictional characters that we may not even know their whole story yet.

[@idontevenhaveapla7224]

Remember in Show yourself, "You're the one you've been waiting for" "All my life".

[@idontevenhaveapla7224]

@@OllamhDrab Elsa is aro-ace. Just because she's not straight, doesn't mean she's gay

[@KittySnicker]

I’m all for representation but I thought Elsa was supposed to be about focusing on yourself, rather than a romantic partner.

[@annamuller4521]

me too :D

[@modkip25]

you can focus on yourself and still be gay

[@annamuller4521]

@@modkip25 and you can focus on yourself and still be straight...?

[@una5345]

She also may be asexual/aromantic

[@modkip25]

@@annamuller4521 what great diversity! Wow! Thanks for your input!

[@TheSphobia]

I must say, that the thing with Elsa really annoys me. If she is not seeking for a man then she is seeking for a woman? Why can't she seek for herself ? Instead of showing that she can be whole on her own, many request her to find the other half. Why does alone means incomplete??

[@elpidak6554]

yeah, my headcanon was always that she is asexual

[@lindsaymorrison7519]

My headcanon was always that it doesn't matter what the heck she is or isn't because she is more than her freaking interest or disinterest in romance.

[@Spicie95]

I hate that view of the single Disney princesses (Merida, Elsa, and Moana) as being lesbian for no other reason than them not ending up with a man. It creates this idea that gay people just couldn't find a partner of the opposite sex, so they settled for someone of their own - what kind of message is that??

[@schutzengel8502]

Yes thank you! I always loved Elsa for showing me, that I don't have to end up in a relationship and still live a happy and fulfilled life.

[@jay8569]

I personally think Elsa is aroace, but if she would be confirmed to be a lesbian or bi, I wouldn't be mad either. Making her wlw would be a huge step, even tough I'd prefer her to be aroace.

[@trinaq]

I liked how "Paranorman" was probably the first kids movie to explicitly feature a gay character, and not just imply that he was gay, by him causally mentioning his boyfriend.

[@annarose932]

Well, only at the very end. And all just for a joke that the girl won't get her dream guy.

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

I liked that too. I also liked how it dod not have to take over the whole movie because that is not what it is about. The story can be an allegory to being gay though. It is a plus.

[@Nightman221k]

I actually liked that since Mitch was more than just a token gay. He was an athletic football player and a good big brother to his nerdy little brother; he just happened to be gay. I like that he was proud of it and not ashamed or closeted like we usually see in movies with a closeted jock. Yeah, it was kind of a gag about Norman's sister crushing on him the whole movie when he would never go for her because he wasn't into women; BUT I gotta say it was nice that he was portrayed as a rounded person and not a stereotype or maligned.

[@ullieya]

Ive watched that movie before but i font remember what your talking abt. Can somebody tell me? I wanna remember as much queer coded characters in media that we have as possible lol

[@Nightman221k]

@@ullieya The older brother of Norman's friend Neil is a football player named Mitch and Norman's sister Courtney is really thirsty for him the whole movie. Throughout the movie we only really know that Mitch is good at sports and cares about his younger brother. It's only at the end of the movie that he says he's got a boyfriend who would enjoy hanging out with Courtney cause he likes some of the same things Courtney does. I forgot what exactly Mitch said about his boyfriend, but it was kind of a groundbreaking thing to have a gay teenage boy character be proud of having a boyfriend and just casually saying it. The fact that he was masculine and had typically masculine interests and traits also kind of was unconventional for the time ParaNorman came out.

[@shilafascrimstudio]

"every lesbian can relate to following the voice of a strange woman as it leads away from your family" HAHAHAHAHAHA BEST LINE EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@magma4168]

The voice turned out to belong to a woman from her family, tho...

[@CamReeds]

lmao that killed me

[@tinaloye2014]

@@magma4168 hmmm... technically the voice is a frozen island, not her mom. However it is a frozen island of Elsa’s memories so In a way, it’s asexual baby 🏳️‍🌈🥰🎉

[@m4rthvader]

as a lesbian this line killed me too JSHDKSKJD

[@domgluhwein]

The delivery, the sync of the clip, IT WAS HILARIOUS

[@Ms_artful]

The queer baiting in Sherlock and Supernatural was a whole era on tumblr omg. They rlly depended on queer shippers for views and totally let them down and low key made fun of them (especially in Sherlock)

[@dianamarcekova9615]

Yeah and then the toxicity in the Sherlock fandom because of Johnlockers and TJLC.

[@bangtanruinedmylifeinabeau5616]

@@dianamarcekova9615what is tjlc? 😗

[@dianamarcekova9615]

@@bangtanruinedmylifeinabeau5616 The johnlock conspiracy theory

[@erintalia9490]

Yep. Still pisses me off that they never even acknowledged the Sherlock/John thing. Even if they hadn't got together but one of them was in love with the other, that still would have been better than completely queer baiting them whilst simultaneously relying on views based on their ship

[@Ms_artful]

@@erintalia9490 not only did they not acknowledge it in a realistic way, they turned it into a JOKE!! Almost as if they were mocking the fans for believing it could happen despite the fact that they had planted the seed for it back in the pilot!!!

[@ngrdtbr]

I really don't enjoy narratives like how "running off to find herself" is now a queer coded thing. My biggest objection to the conversation around Elsa's sexuality is that it assumes that there needs to be romance and sexuality behind everything. When I first watched Frozen and Frozen 2, I was super into the message of finding yourself and not needing to be hyperfocused on romance, but even such a universal experience like an identity crisis and soul searching is being washed away for what people seem to want as queer coding. I was just disheartened to see a message that probably resonated with so many people being reduced to "SHE HAS TO BE GAYYYY". Going at it on your own doesn't translate to missing an other half and it's pretty reductive to send such messages to children.

[@rssigmund1]

queer coding =/= "SHE HAS TO BE GAY" and the video you are commenting on explained that at length.

[@erinyes3943]

I get what you mean. I’m guessing some people saw that and were reminded of their own journey to understand their sexuality and applied that to Elsa? But to be honest, I’m only peripherally aware of the second frozen movie, so I’m probably missing some context though, lol

[@gamerwoman6991]

She could be asexual too

[@realSimoneCherie]

Yup. People do it all the time. They even do this with characters who are straight but not “feminine” enough like pataki.

[@brianhale3678]

Biology. 💃≠🚶‍♂️ 💃+🚶‍♂️ = 👨‍👩‍👧‍👦 🚶‍♂️+🚶‍♂️ = 0 💃+💃 = 0 🏋️‍♂️>🏋️‍♀️ How do you get to hell? Very simple: claim that you're innocent. How do you get to heaven? Very simple: Admit that you're not Innocent, you're guilty and ask for mercy. How to know if you're guilty or not? Simply: Compare your life to the Ten Commandments God gave you in the Bible. Everyone agrees that if people followed the ten commandments there would be no need for governments or police. Do not lie. Do not steal. Do not commit adultery. Do not insult God by using his name as a cuss word. There are six more but let's just leave it at that. How many lies have you told in your life? Have you ever taken anything that didn't belong to you? Jesus said, if you look at a women lustfully you've already committed adultery in your heart with that woman. How many times a day do you do that? Do you use God's name as a cuss word? Would you do that with your own mother's name? If you answer these questions honestly you know that you're guilty. God can justly punish you and send you to hell. Ask him for mercy. His name is Jesus. It's as simple as this, The Ten Commandments are called the moral law. You and I broke God's laws. Jesus paid the fine. The fine is death. Ezekiel 18:20 - "The soul who sins shall die. That's why Jesus had to die on the cross for our sins. This is why God is able to give us Mercy. Option A. You die for your own sins. Option B. Ask for mercy and accept that Jesus died for you.

[@lunarstargazer]

I always thought it was Gaston who was really gay, trying to mask with hyper-masculinity and reacting with violence when his carefully crafted image of ultimate hetero-manhood was rejected

[@TokioTE]

Interesting. I also recently learned that Gaston's live-action actor is gay.

[@someonerandom8552]

That’s...actually a really good point. Makes the song “kill the beast” that much more interesting.

[@lunarstargazer]

@@someonerandom8552 It's the song "Gaston" that becomes more interesting for me, and is the one with the most tells. Throughout the movie he never actually shows an interest in women, and his choice in Belle is wholly strategic and based on what he thinks a man should want. When she rejects him, he seeks confirmation of how desirable he is from his fellow men ("Gaston"), and largely ignores the girl who are also swooning for him, except to use as a prop to show up his manly aptitude (ie, when he presses the bench). The song even references the "other team" metaphor, "You can ask any Tom, Dick, or Stanley, and they'll tell you whose team they prefer to be on" Suggesting not only that Gaston is on the "other team" but these men as well.

[@theyakkoman]

The lead animator for Gaston, Andreas Deja (who, point of interest, was also the lead animator for Scar and Jafar) is an openly gay man. Just thought I'd add that to the conversation.

[@someonerandom8552]

@@lunarstargazer I never thought of that. But you make a very compelling case for your interpretation

[@saltycrunch]

"If Elsa isn't shown desperate for a boyfriend that must mean she's gay" is no better than queer coding. She could be asexual or aromantic or just not interested in a relationship at present. Maybe she DOES just want to find herself. God forbid a woman just want to be single.

[@windshieldlaugh7411]

Amen

[@YourMajesty143]

@@samanthachurch - That's true, but there's no subtext that indicates she's either queer nor straight. Elsa is a character defined entirely by her lack of a love interest. That is AroAce in a nutshell. You can be gay and AroAce, just like you can be hetero and AroAce. For ex. I'm an Ace Pansexual. Unfortunately, neither gay nor hetero is explicitly fleshed out -- however, her non-romantic status IS very much so. So on a probability scale, if there were any category she'd likely fall under, it is Asexual/Aromantic.

[@MsHananH]

AMEN let woman be!

[@mkg2124]

I think straight women have been defined by their relationship to a man in media and especially in Disney's history for so long that if any woman is not shown with a man then she does not fit the idea of what a straight woman looks like. People jump on a character who isn't defined by their relationship with the opposite sex because they are so used to straight people being straight for the sake of them settling down and having kids in a traditional straight relationship. I'm sure plenty of people immediately assumed that Merida is gay because she is a strong female character that didn't want to marry a man she just met and sticks with being single at the end of the movie.

[@Tajkiya-qz2wk]

I thought Disney made it clear she was ace and aro

[@chasityboatman4928]

As a queer person, I always saw myself more in the villains than the princesses. This makes so much more sense now.

[@edi9892]

I can understand it, despite being not going that way... I tried to post it before, but as soon as I mention a few words, it gets deleted... What I wanted to write is that if people believe that you are destined to go to _Jigoku_ because you're _HAPPY,_ then what keeps you from sinning? When I fell in love for the first time, I was afraid of my own family and expected that I might get disinherited, just because that girl didn't fit their expectations (religion, nationality, and appearance). It must be a nightmare being born _different_ in a very religious community... PS: YT-algorithms really need to be fixed!

[@jp9707]

Same!! I liked how close they were with people of the same gender as themselves. Growing up (I was born in 1995, so there wasn't as much homophobia as there used to be but it was still taboo), my parents didn't tell me about gay people. My peers told me about them when I was 11. So as a child I was fascinated by the villains in films, because they were really close to people of the same gender, and so was I. I didn't know that being gay was an option, this was the closest representation I'd seen of someone being close to people of the same gender, so I wanted to be a villain when I got older. Even as a teenager, coming out one day didn't seem to be an option, because it just didn't seem to be accepted or a mainstream thing. Gay people in movies and TV were still just the villains, or strange flamboyant/butch characters who stay on the sidelines. It seemed like I was destined to be a villain - apart from other people with a dark secret, longing to be with someone I was attracted to but never able to act on it. It really fed into my inner narrative that being gay made me strange and wicked.

[@edi9892]

@@jp9707 I do like flamboyant characters that don't give a F, but I don't like these Sissis on TV. Also, I have a soft spot for tomboyish girls. PS: my mother had no education about these things as well and thought that she was dead ill when she started bleeding for the first time...

[@susiem.2068]

@Johan Liebert It means you have the hots for the oldies my friend 😌😎

[@shockingheaven]

Same. Also, for _some_ reason, I related a lot to outcast/misfit characters, including the Beast and Mulan.

[@sparvierosart]

I was a kid watching Xena and... I don’t know, it never felt like queerbaiting: they kiss more than once and their deep love for each other is the core of the show. I knew that these two women were in love before even knowing the word bisexual.

[@spj4you]

Hear, hear!

[@sarroumarbeu6810]

A gay relationship in a fantasy setting 🥺🥺 when will we get this again...

[@moontears3887]

Exactly!

[@katharineeavan9705]

I'd agree, except the only reason they went that far was that they knew the main stream audience wouldn't take that part seriously. Xena and Gabrielle could have outright declared that they were lesbians and the general audience would have taken it as something for the straight men to ogle or as gals being pals.

[@gosiaszczesniak1867]

The platform producing Xena, forbade the writers and producers to make it a story about lesbians, so they purposefully put as much gay subtext as they could. They made them kiss, say they love each other, cuddle, say how attractive they found the other and even plan to raise a child together. It took a male here and there, for the platform to let them do it. After it has ended, both actors and creators of the show, have said that they were practically a married couple for most of the time.

[@i_only_simp_for_myself800]

I hate how Elsa was considered a lesbian just because she doesn’t have a love interest. She’s a queen who always gave the vibe about wanting to be free and living her life the way she wants, and who’s happy on her own. She, Merida and moana were the few Disney characters that teaches young girls that you don’t need a significant other to have a fulfilling life. Plus the way every fandoms start to ship two people just because they’re close is creepy cause it’s likes saying you can’t care about someone and wanting to spend time with them, unless you’re attracted to them. There’s a thing called FRIENDSHIP you know?

[@Abraham-gf1oi]

And I hate how you people (even though I’m ace) bunch up these princesses as ace because of the same reasons people are shipping her with a girl. “She’s not interested in men”. It’s just stupid. Her songs are literally allegories for the lgbt experience. It makes sense with Elsa. Other princesses, it doesn’t- hence no one else pushing it as much as they do with her

[@i_only_simp_for_myself800]

@@Abraham-gf1oi where did I said she’s asexual?? You don’t need a specific sexuality to be strong, independent and enjoy being single.

[@thecat3309]

THAT!! Such true words. Thank you.

[@billiemss5817]

It's a story like many in disney about fiding oneself, the plus being, different from other princesses, its not explicit about a romance with a man, so its only natural that people would read it with their own interpretations based on their own experiences. Cause realisticly you wont relate to having to hide your frezing powers from society, so we put our own take in it. Reading her as gay doesnt mean she needs to have a girlfriend to be complete, just that gay people could relate to her. She could have any sexuality you imagine since its not stated in te text, but its a narrative lots of gay ppl relate to

[@deniveave4612]

@@billiemss5817 Agreed, that's what people do who don't understand things and are trying to, and putting labels on things help them with that process. Like in the ancient times where people blamed what mother nature was doing on the angry gods. I remember the last few years I was in high school (early 90s) and well into my mid-twenties, people would ask me why I didn't have a boyfriend. And then they'd asked it if was because I was a lesbian. But, I didn't date women either, never kissed one, never messed around with either sex, but so they could make sense of things for themselves, they concluded I was a lesbian. They just couldn't understand my simple answer that I just wasn't interested in getting romantically involved with anyone. They couldn't leave it at that. And back then, terms/ labels like asexual and aromantic didn't exist, unlike now with the many endless terms swarming around during a time that people cry they don't want to be labeled and then call themselves non-binary or they.

[@jeanettemily1109]

I feel like when people discussing queer characters they deliberately excluding asexuals/aromantics or not considering bisexuals. If the character is not straight then they must be gay or lesbian, or if the character has only been with a woman/man, then they must be straight. You know a character can be ace or bi right?

[@Spineless-Lobster]

Thank you! I have seen little to no representation of the a-spec community in the media. Most of the time it’s not even done well. I have also seen people label male characters who have been with women as gay because he liked one male character. Bisexuals and asexuals exist too!

[@alenciaga21]

@@Spineless-Lobster Sex Education does a pretty good job at including bi/ or asexual characters. Without making such a big deal about it or letting it define their personality I thinl

[@shalakaj523]

@@alenciaga21 Yess! however, sex education also has a lot of lgbtq+ characters as a part of their storyline in general. sometimes it feels like ticking off a list. Are there any shows/ movies featuring a spec/ aro/ ace characters (apart from sex ed)?

[@alenciaga21]

@@shalakaj523 hm I don't watch too many series so I might be missing a lot. I see Sherlock as the only really asexual character I can think of. Those are really not shown. I don't even think it's any sort of phobia or denial of those shows who include queer characters. But romantic relationships and sex are ALWAYS used for drama so I guess writers and viewers might find aromantics/as boring? Which is total bullshit to me since I actually find those character annoying who only define themselves over their sexuality.

[@Spineless-Lobster]

@@alenciaga21 Yes, I watched the series and I really like it. It actually helped me realize I was asexual.

[@muse5633]

Can we talk about Baljiet and Buffort from Phineas and Ferb? "I got a nerd size hole in my heart"? That was very 💅🏽

[@cassielcruzchavolla809]

That song is gay culture

[@Marina-kd7qk]

Literally Buffort especially was so queercoded that for me it's cannon

[@growingupwithdisney]

Candace and Vanessa also had potential together, like the time they ended up wearing each other’s clothes after the laundry mat mix up

[@nazarisreyes6037]

I always thought they liked each other

[@drfifteenmd7561]

Ooooh, yes, but I really despise Bully-victim relationships. Issa no for me.

[@Brens.exe.]

What I don't like about the queer coding it's that makes people think that's a mold that fits all and well we're all people and different not because someone is queer makes them instantly act like these stereotypes

[@BioshadowX]

Yeah in writing workshop I saw someone try to write a farm girl who is naturally stronger, more built out and direct in her confrontations than a typical female character due to the context she is raised, working on a farm. No mention of love throughout the story but it ended up being workshopped into being a frame tale with the now grown woman and her husband telling her story to their children. Half the workshop complained because she was "obviosuly gay". I know it's ironic but sucks to erase one identity and then just use it as a stereotype for another.

[@jokerpandroidc9807]

That goes for all stereo types

[@angelrae3660]

Some family members of mine had a conversation about gay people and they agreed that you can always tell when people are gay. I interjected that I know gay people who you won't assume are gay from the way they look or act. They sort of brushed me off by say, "Well most of them". This conversation happened last year.

[@Jennifer.villezcas]

I was looking for this comment. Thanks.

[@lashantacurry5978]

Youre queer?

[@theduke5355]

I get a little frustrated when people definitively say Elsa is gay just because she doesn’t have a romantic storyline. If the character is revealed to be exclusively gay, that’s one thing. But simply having the character go though her own story arc without male love interests doesn’t necessarily make them gay. Personally, I think it feeds into the stereotypical thinking of “if a woman doesn’t have a boyfriend, it’s because she’s a lesbian”. I think describing her as aromantic is a little more accurate to her character, but then again I think we’re trying to impose too many labels onto her overall.

[@sarroumarbeu6810]

Overall we pretty much agree that she doesn't need a significant other to be happy and fulfilled... whatever her actual orientation might be

[@HistoryMuses]

Idina Menzel's comment definitely implies Elsa is aromantic. That, of course, doesn't make it impossible for her to be bi or lesbian in addition to aro, because aromantic and asexual aren't the same and don't always go together, but it definitely deserves representation as well. However, like you said, what the actors say and do doesn't always translate to what the writers decide is canon, so who knows.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

I feel like ‘The Hayes Code’ just ruined it for everyone.

[@lasofi5510]

Fr

[@jaimicottrill2831]

They 100% did!

[@Qu33nMary444]

It was chapter 476 in the (still ongoing) saga of White Men Ruin Everything

[@PokhrajRoy.]

@@Qu33nMary444 👍🏽

[@someonerandom8552]

True dat!

[@papkinn]

Are we SERIOSLY going to ignore Idina Menzel openly describing Elsa as aromantic in that interview?

[@itsQUINNderful]

I’ve always said Elsa is asexual if anything! She’s never shown interest in any romantic relationships.

[@mysticc6232]

Never heard of that interview but that makes me so happy!

[@SofieReib]

@@itsQUINNderful Yes, I don't know why people keep saying she's gay. Like, if anything, she's ace, or even just aro

[@taylor_green_9]

There's a line in Show Yourself that says "I am the one I've been waiting for all of my life". I think that's all the evidence we need

[@itsQUINNderful]

@@SofieReib I myself am asexual/grey and I can see so much of myself in Elsa. I wish people would let us have this one character... most people don’t even know what asexuality is or believe that it exists. I’ve had numerous encounters with doctors and friends and exes telling me asexuality isn’t real.

[@konraddygudaj257]

“If I wait for someone else to validate my existence, it will mean that I’m shortchanging myself.” - Zanele Muholi

[@trinaq]

Precisely, at the end of the day, who you choose to love is nobody's business except for your own. Much like Rosa Diaz, there should be more proud LGBTQA Plus characters who are sure of their Sexuality, and who explicitly admit to being so, as opposed to just being hinted at.

[@darkstorm0433]

Yeah, I believe that it is time to retire this trope. It's time to stop hiding.

[@brianarbenz7206]

Exactly what I just posted, but more succinct.

[@candice_ecidnac]

Tai's remark about having "straight friends" was not about sexuality; it was about not having friends who weren't constantly stoned. She didn't say "sober" because that was usually used just for alcoholics, and "straight" was used to mean someone who abstained from drug use, perhaps not as severe as "straight edge" but in the same vein. *The fact that the comment about "straight friends" immediately followed a conversation about drugs (specifically cocaine and weed) should have been the most obvious clue she was talking about drugs, not homosexuality*

[@XieronDraxin]

I think one of the roughest things about being a queer fan is that a LOT of the time, a good queerbait is better than many explicit romances. The constant perception of pining, tip-toing around it, stolen moments creates more romantic tension than the many bland romances we see as straight authors and directors portray "the gay struggle" and every queer romance is about nothing but how hard it is to be gay, not about the romance at all. They play into stereotypes and tropes and it all just feels bland and predictable. Boy discovers he's gay (because it's usually about a gay man as lesbian romances are reserved for fancy art house films or side characters), he denies it, he accepts it, becomes terrified of coming out, comes out, it goes well/poorly, changes his life, another boy winks at him or dances with him or he gets one kiss at the end, and roll credits. Only so many times I can see that done over and over again before it gets old (it's already old).

[@scofieldvictoria]

And this is why I get sucked in every time

[@GenerationNextNextNext]

Unfortunately, the "queerbaiting" and "queer-coding" often also ends up pinning stereotypes on gay people, as heterosexual writers decide who is gay based on who doesn't fit heteronormative society. "XYZ woman acts like a man, so she must have the same sexual interests as _all_ men...because all men like women, right? So she's lesbian" It's the problem I feel with Betty from the Rugrats suddenly coming out as gay. She's "lesbian" just because she's butch, masculine, and talks about girlfriends from the past. But why can't she also be attracted to men, and be attractive to some men as well? To me, if a producer didn't have the courage to make their characters gay before, and sank their dignity enough to sell their character to a company by changing their sexuality, that character isn't worthy of honor, even if they "come out" later. I'm looking for characters that are unapologetically gay, not ones with a "in the closet" past. Yes, that's the story of so many of us, but who would want a movie or show about their past "straight" relationships? None of us. I swear it's straight people telling us who isn't straight.

[@harrietomahoney9370]

"can't sit in a chair correctly for queer women" That is the single most relatable sentence I have ever head in my entire existence.

[@milegimenz9102]

yep😂

[@jp9707]

Kate McKinnon comes to mind

[@MsHananH]

It explained everything to me...

[@scofieldvictoria]

I’m straight and can’t sit in a chair properly 😆

[@roxie6884]

as a bi girl, yes i do that

[@alenkavenx2056]

Oh, I really wanted Elsa to be asexual or just not interested in a relationship. Well

[@a.d.w8385]

Don't worry. Many of us view her that way.

[@che7941]

and thats exactly what it is. People are just turning it into something else because they WANT it ro be that 🙄

[@unicorntomboy9736]

@@a.d.w8385 No, I think the entire movie was a metaphor for a gay coming out story

[@YourMajesty143]

As an ace, I totally saw her as an asexual! It's kinda annoying that everytime a woman isn't with a man, people automatically assume she must be lesbian. It's like ace erasure, but I'm not that deep about it -- mostly bc I'll take my crumbs wherever I can get it lol

[@che7941]

@@unicorntomboy9736 naa it was really not. lol

[@katierose7345]

The clueless ref about "straight friends" i think was actually referring to sober/clean/straight-edge people, rather than sexual orientation.

[@nea807]

Thank you! I was looking for this comment. Tai was not queer.

[@gingertea123]

Exactly

[@saltycrunch]

I just got that, 25 years and dozens of rewatches of Clueless later.

[@adoringsharon]

@@nea807 How are you so sure?

[@nea807]

@@adoringsharon well I should correct my words, she was not a lesbian. She had a thing for both Elton and Travis.

[@Moon_Moon91]

One thing that I think is frustrating is that the "cliché" lesbian is described as the opposite of the "classic" woman, that is, every time a woman does not fit the stereotypes of femininity, she must be gay. But considering how oppressive and reductive these stereotypes are, it’s like every woman who refuses to follow them cannot be for the love of god attracted to men. This in the end alienates women of all sexualities, and reinforces the "rules" of patriarchy.

[@palakjain510]

You should next make a video about "THE DRINKING MOM" Trope (like Kitty from That 70's show, Claire from Modern Family, etc) and why is it played as gags rather than treating it as an actual problem and posible addiction.

[@christopherb501]

Those examples are sitcoms; question answered.

[@teach6882]

Straight guy here, nobody can tell me that Finn and Poe were not made to be with eachother seriously, never got best friends vibe, clear lovers vibe

[@ConnorDoubleYou]

Disney were absolute cowards for not pulling the trigger on that one.

[@ohnoes423]

finn and poe kiss >>>>> reylo kiss

[@DCMarvelMultiverse]

Same.

[@salt6519]

@@ohnoes423 Finn and Poe had way more chemistry than whatever the fuck reylo was

[@enkays_den]

Oscar Issac himself said he played the character as interested in finn

[@paulinagonzalez8106]

“Gestures of representation aren’t actually representation” 💕

[@christopherb501]

They're a start, at _best._ And by this point, we're WELL past the "start" for all the demographics brought up in this video.

[@sarroumarbeu6810]

Love this sentence so much ❤️

[@luca2000570]

Supernatural queerbaited Dean and Cas's relationship for 11 years.... my heart was tortured.

[@jeanettemily1109]

They could've just made cas appear in heaven and they hug or something and it would've been ten times better, but nope

[@ryanedwards7487]

Given that Dean did have relationships with women during the show, but was also very into a few guys, I always thought he was bisexual personally. However, I am a cisgender male who can unabashedly say that Sam and Dean are very attractive men. I became, however, after a couple seasons, and especially after Lucifer blew him up in I think the season 5 finale, fairly certain that Castiel was homosexual (not the human host, since we see him with a wife he clearly loves and their child in season 4, I think). However, I also clearly thought that Dean and Cas were clearly in love with one another from season 6 onwards, especially how they reacted and talked to each other. And Dean literally showing that broken reaction after Cas died proved it to me.

[@luca2000570]

@@ryanedwards7487 I'd like to believe that they were in love, I really do... my biggest ship ever

[@MariaMoz]

@@ryanedwards7487 you're probably the only man who's neither uncomfortable talking about this (in the spn fandom at least) nor repulsed by the idea

[@ryanedwards7487]

@@MariaMoz hah, I seriously doubt that. You just have to remember the online fans boil down into either superfans or trolls. And most young superfans have a hard time reconciling the fact that the person they live vicariously through may be gay. I mean, there were people unbelievably upset that the young Iceman from another universe in Marvel was gay. I have no idea why some people can't get over it. Love is love, and it's rare as can be, so don't begrudge it in others wherever they find it. It's like all those people who couldn't watch Brokeback Mountain without being skiddish. It's a very good, and tragic, love story; why does it matter that it's between two men? Some people really need to watch some Frasier, look at the terrific couple Robin Williams and Nathan Lane portray in the Birdcage, and realize that that same love and lust they feel for whoever they are with is the same darn thing any LGBTQ person feels for their significant other.

[@tandokazimayatula]

Everyone defending Elsa just warms my heart. Let her be herself, she doesn’t need a man or woman just like Moana.

[@ImnotassweetasIusedtobe]

Brittany Murphy's character in Clueless means straight as in "drug free." Did they even watch Clueless? They never show her character liking girls at all, while Dion's boyfriend openly describe's Cher's gay male love interest as a "cakeboy," "friend of Dorothy," and straighforwardly, "he's gay."

[@mwoods4608]

I'm saying.... 💯💯💯

[@YourMajesty143]

Her character was in love with that one douchebag tho. So while I'd love it if she was gay or even bi, they sort of queerbaited her on us a bit.

[@AnnaMaria-oy1fp]

I don't think they've watch many of these films. Even the black and white ones. Even before the Hays Code there weren't movies with gay couples or talking about sex or showing people french kissing etc

[@Embrinna]

Bruh, all Elsa did was talking to a newly met girl and suddenly she is "gay". Elsa seems aromantic. The movie even clearly lead her to it. Her being gay is just a product of the fandom. As how she was shipped with any characters, that's all from fandom world. . . . Edit : Yes, everybody can be asexual and aromantic and still be in relationship, you can be gay or lesbian or bisexual, or hetero and still single. You can be in any sexual orientation but that's not the topic i meant to put in here. I'm talking about how pushy people with their own narrative to Elsa and how they think she should be. Considering how she often being talked about being gay and there are bunch of people that insist she is a lesbian and lesbian only, despite Disney just never put anything about her sexuality in the movie, and more likely they they choose the ace/aro.

[@ralv511]

People don't think that she's a lesbian just because she talked to the girl. It's because that character was made to be in a relationship with Elsa. People were glad for the representation and felt that Disney was moving in the right direction. However, when the movie came out it showed otherwise. I do also think she's aromantic, but she's been locked in a castle all of her life and the writers really haven't given her as much personality as the other characters so it's hard to say anything about her.

[@Spineless-Lobster]

I agree. We’ve never seen her express any attraction to anyone.

[@mac9733]

@@ralv511 Can you provide me the source that states the writers and Disney initially intended to make her character to be Elsa's partner?

[@sbcd7808]

Yeah I agree especially considering the most important part of her big finale song is literally the line "You are the one you've been waiting for".

[@sbcd7808]

@@charizard7326 I think most people talking about this are referring to Frozen 2 since she is a main character in that film which she arguably was not in Frozen so you get a lot more personality. Edit: Especially in reference to the songs most people are talking about her two songs in Frozen 2 not Let it go.

[@Angi3_6]

Women in suits are....*chef's kiss*

[@amandak.5967]

Yaas! I'm really hoping that in the upcoming show She-Hulk that the wardrobe is stacked with suits :)

[@Angi3_6]

@@amandak.5967 There's a She-Hulk show coming?

[@amandak.5967]

@@Angi3_6 Yup! In 2022 on Disney+. The cast & crew seem pretty promising. She Hulk will be played by Tatiana Maslany (from Orphan Black).

[@lgbtqiarights]

GOD I LOVE BUTCH WOMEN

[@Kwisbyfwy223]

Absolutely

Still I don’t think being a bit masculine or not foccused in love, necessarily have to make you a lesbian. I hate when a smart, athletic character has to become a lesbian. A lesbian can be delicate and femenine as well. I’m not saying I want less representation of lesbians, I want a broad representation of all types of women breaking stereotypes. I guess, what bothers me is that they don’t associate femininity with brilliance, intelligence or virtuosity, as if you have to be a bit masculine to be strong/smart, as if you have to be masculine to be lesbian.

[@Grimenoughtomaketherobotcry]

Virtuosity.

@@Grimenoughtomaketherobotcry Thank you :) I’m still learning english and I’m Glad that’s the only correction I’ve got xD

[@patriciavicente5034]

Schitts creek was one of the most accomplished series portraying a gay relationship without any question, or difference, or prejudice and gave it a happy ending!! It really made me believe that the world can change for better towards acceptance and equality for every human being or love story 😍

[@mmaannggaa]

'Every lesbian can relate to following the voice of a strange woman as it leads you away from your family.' I SCREAMED *makes bird noices*

[@georgeprchal3924]

Isn't that how Princess Aurora died?

[@samdauphin8052]

Lmfaooooooo

[@sarroumarbeu6810]

Lmaooo xDDD

[@Melanco001]

When I was little I knew there was a reason why I identified with some characters but couldn't put my finger on it, now as adult I can't help but thank some of those character...it was nice seeing myself on some of them.

[@schutzengel8502]

I have to say, my asexual/aromantic ass loves Elsa. It would have really hurt my feelings if she turned out to be in any kind of relationship.

[@Abraham-gf1oi]

Her songs read too queer for me. “Let it go” and “You are the one I’ve been waiting for” don’t read ace to me. Sorry

[@kstar1489]

@@Abraham-gf1oi ? How can they not be ace? Lmao. Not saying she must be but nowhere is there an indication that she must not be.

[@che7941]

@@Abraham-gf1oi lol this whole movie is literally about her loving and looking for herself. This applies to all sexualities. There is nothing queer about it.

[@griffenspellblade3563]

@@Abraham-gf1oi Really? That song still resonates hard with walking away from fundy land. It's a global go screw yourself I am not staying in this tiny little box anymore song.

[@OllamhDrab]

@@che7941 Technically, if it 'applies to all sexualities' people are going to call it 'queer.' There's surely nothing that says the only way to find strength in yourself means you *must* be ace or else 'be hurting people's feelings.' Aces surely get a hard time for the same reasons lesbians and a lot of bi women do, though, 'Failure to perform straightness.' People don't have to be exactly like you to speak to your story.

[@danidkg4071]

umm..... there's a difference between queer subtext and queercoding. queercoding is almost always used negatively, like with traditional disney villains. subtext can be found in media, especially old media, bc writers weren't allowed to portray gay people on screen.

[@naivenitara]

I was today years old when I realized Scar and Jafar are basically the same character

[@xamdp82]

Not a lover of fan fic... but I get it. We're basically never the protagonists and seldom the side characters. When we're visible, we're often cliched, reductive or sexless. If we're being honest, it totally makes sense that we're rewriting some characters as gay - because we exist and our stories should too.

[@malikparah915]

The way so many negative tropes in media can be traced back to the Hays code...

[@leelahasan3988]

wow it's almost like regressive censorship leads to *checks notes* the proliferation of regressive ideas

[@danidkg4071]

i honestly feel kinda bad about the whole supernatural situation, bc apparently it was a gay/lgbtq writer who wanted to make the dean/castiel relationship romantic but the network wouldn't allow it or something :/

[@VickiLovesDoctorWho]

They even did market research in 2016 or 2017 to see how audiences would respond to Dean being bi. Clearly they chickened out and ended up making it seem like Dean had a lobotomy in the last episode cause he suddenly didn't care that Cas was gone. When every other time Cas 'died' Dean was destroyed and drank himself half to death. 😑 He was even suicidal after Cas was killed by Lucifer.

[@drfifteenmd7561]

Similarly to Korrasami.

[@Nessainthebuilding]

Honestly the scene felt like they were trying to make everyone happy and I'm pretty sure it ended up doing the opposite

[@Caterfree10]

@@drfifteenmd7561 At least Korrasami didn't have Bury Your Gays. The best bis actually got their happy ending, wedding imagery and all (sans actual wedding, but it was the best we had at the time in children's media).

[@plastictree7635]

@@VickiLovesDoctorWho right! Like so all of a sudden he doesn’t care about cas ?? 💀

[@Paulagonia]

I'm just gonna say the own community is guilty of it too, forcing a lgbt arc to a canon straight character just because they don't portray 100% masculine or feminine traits. Example that really baffles me, Donna Sheridan from Mamma Mia, her arc is not knowing who is the father of her daughter bz she slept with 3 men very close in time to each other and in the end marrying one of those guys . But internet people claim she's a lesbian bz she wears overalls...

[@mynameisreallycool1]

That gets really annoying, and the worst part is if you disagree with them and say, "I don't think they're supposed to be gay." They call you homophobic. Homophobia is a real thing, but come on. Not to mention, they often times don't even say that these people could be bisexual, they just insist that the character in question must be gay, even if the character has shown obvious interest in and has romantic partners of the opposite sex. It just erases bisexuality. You'd say, "Well this person is obviously into the opposite sex too, so maybe they could be bi." And they will say, "No. They're just gay. That's a fact." I don't blame them entirely for shipping characters, especially since straight people do this too with opposite sex couples, and the lgbtq community has very little representation in the media, but the problem is when they take it too seriously and act like their speculations and theories are fact, and act arrogant when you disagree with them.

[@windshieldlaugh7411]

Yeah the whole stud or femme thing in the wlw community is kinda getting annoying in my opinion, I love typical feminine things and typical masculine things, but the idea that for example you can only be a super masculine or a super feminine lesbian, like tf is up with that or that there’s a typical way how gay women/girls dress dress, no thank you I'm queer and I don’t wanna cuff my jeans bc all my pants are usually too short and that just makes it worse. Like this part of the gay community is literally stereotyping themselves, I'm sorry I'm not here for it. Dress however you want, but we should stop labeling things so aggressively in my opinion, just freaking ask a person if they are gay, straight, bi, pan, asexual, aromatic, etc., that should become a thing in my opinion. Not assuming but asking, because I don’t go around assuming things about people based on just what I perceive, no I actually ask them or it come up if they are idk a dog or a cat person. Of course you can have a suspicion, but just ask before you assume.

[@shalakaj523]

to be completely honest, when there are characters with non conventional portrayals of masculinity or femininity, at least till 1960s- 70s, there is a hint of assumed representation. it is also a way to see yourself and your expression/ desires portrayed. even when it gets queer baited in the end. imagine the minuscule representation of lgbtq+ individuals in storylines, rarely the protagonist or so, that hints of non conventional allow yourself to feel represented. especially when the behavior in books or movies does border on being non straight/ cis. like yes, it is sad that non typically feminine or masculine gets you characterized as gay/ lesbian, but unless you actively make typically masc/ feminine characters a part of the lgbtq+ community naturally the trope does not end.

[@charlie_et_ses_folies]

@@windshieldlaugh7411 actually, what about non giving a damn about who they are, or aren't, attracted to. Everyone moves at their own pace. Sometimes, asking someone their sexual or romantic orientation can be very triggering, as they might not know, or they have had a complicated relationship with their orientation, or they might not feel safe enough with you to tell you. Each one is completely okay. Don't assume anything, if they mention a partner or lack of, or any orientation they might identify with, be cool about it. Not everyone is where your are. Especially if you are straight or not out as queer to them. Don't ask them about their potential queerness without them mentioning it first

[@FacebookQueen]

If anything I would say she might have experimented she’s flirty with Tayna sometimes lol

[@ms_katielynn5264]

I just love that fact that, because Disney chose to make Elsa disinterested in romance of any sort, they accidentally made a fantastic asexual narrative that still counts as super queer! That’s how I love to read it anyway...

[@yz4043]

I'm a lesbian: I'm over emotional, soft hearted and I love wearing dresses. HA!

[@nathaliem3423]

Honestly I cant see Elsa as being a lesbian (i see her as ace) just because she doesnt have a boyfriend or a male love interest. I see why people might use it as a metaphor or allegory but idk i dont see her as being queer coded

[@fijardim7]

Me too

[@MariaMoz]

To me, either option is better than no representation at all.

[@windshieldlaugh7411]

We should just leave characters that have no romantic arc alone, no the person doesn’t have to be gay or asexual or aromatic, the creators could have just decided that a freaking romantic life and her sexuality doesn’t matter to the story, it’s not needed. In the end she is just a fictional character that doesn’t exist outside her movies and series. So I label her... nothing.

[@RandomSkyeRoses]

@@windshieldlaugh7411 you have a point. People are way too obsessed with sexuality and shipped than simply telling a good story

[@Spineless-Lobster]

I think so too.

[@NDUWUISI]

Sometimes queercoding happens when the fandom shipping certain characters gets a following (like video described later). Then the company behind the characters tries to have it both ways in what they often actually intended (a character just being straight) while also acknowledging the fan push for this or that character to be queer

[@imjustczarina]

Primarily example: Destiel

[@repearl6923]

@@imjustczarina actually the screenwriters wanted them to be a couple, which was why dean reacted so emotionally every time something happened to cas, but they network didn’t allow it, unfortunately

[@mcostagirl123]

In fairness, Xena was not queer baiting because she and Gabrielle were explicitly gay by the end of the series.

[@Mecharnie_Dobbs]

Also it was made befor the phrase 'queer baiting' was in common use, so the writers couldn't discuss: "Should we be queer baiting?" It was innuendo.

[@Mecharnie_Dobbs]

This is now the 'Xena and Gabriel' ' thread.

[@Mecharnie_Dobbs]

13:41 "... without ever delivering on anything explicit enough to alienate a homophobic audience" But wasn't the show banned in at least one country for its lesbianism?

[@octoberboiy]

I always wondered why my mom forbade me from watching Xena in the 90s lol. The killing had something to do with it too.

[@TrioSonata]

@@Mecharnie_Dobbs I swear when my mom introduced Xena to me everything changed. She was literally my first female crush and that's never changed. I love my box set. xD

[@lgonzep3289]

I like how in The 100 there's no "Coming out" the fluidity of the charecters sexuality is unbothered they're just two people loving each other

[@meeieio]

Like no ones even questions it, it’s not and issue it’s just how it is bc that’s life

[@meeieio]

I love the 100

[@churrenuchen]

I think one of the greatest, and relatively early, example of a realistic and nuanced gay character is Omar Little in the Wire. His sexuality was never treated as something that affected his plot or personality in the script. His relationship to his boyfriend was of course something that affected his story and actions, but not because it was a guy that had a boyfriend, just simply that it was a guy that had a relationship.

[@silkymochi]

I always read Lupin as bi, like Sirius Black was his first love but also loved Tonks later in life

[@sabosage]

I can see that. I also read Tonks as bi, but I don't like her and Lupin together. Love them both, but that relationship was so outta left field.

[@emilycurtis4398]

@@sabosage his reluctance to be with Tonks in 6 and 7 nearly screamed, "I'm gay, but the author is forcing me to be straight."

[@ceciliatoledo837]

@@sabosage me too lol disturbes me the fact that when he was 13 she was a new born 😭✋🏼 and the fact he probably knew her bc she was related to sirius creeps me out

[@silkymochi]

@@sabosage So true actually, I think if JK expanded on Lupin and Sirius' relationship would have been more compelling

[@silkymochi]

@@emilycurtis4398 on a different note, I appreciate she stated that Dumbledore is gay but I'm perpetually confused why none of that is shown in the Fantastic beasts movies? JK stated she didn't want to show anything just imply, which is very disappointing on her end

[@Snowleaper]

I always felt like Elsa was aroace. It's my identity and I related a lot to her at the time.

[@trinaq]

Me too, though I found it refreshing that Elsa didn't get a love interest, since marriage or romance isn't for everyone.

[@taiyabazaheer9492]

@@trinaq exactly. I'm not aro or ace but I still wanna avoid relationships. I'm really like Elsa. I've even had a past like her and one day decided to 'let it go'. I'm glad Disney finally showed an introverted, aromantic, cold princess with a warm heart as opposed to the bubbly, extroverted and romantic princesses it always favoured.

[@alenciaga21]

Can I ask a question? Does aromatic only mean that you aren't interested in a romantic relationship or does it mean that you literally can't fall in love? Because if you do fall in love, what do you do then?

[@a.d.w8385]

I think a lot of people feel she leans more that way than as gay.

[@alenciaga21]

@bts aroace ho Thanks for the answer, that's actually really interesting. I think the toughest part really is that everyone feels differently and people not believing your sexuality is a thing for example must be so frustrating. Personally I would find it so sad not to feel romantic attraction but that's only cause I am romantic as hell. xD doesn't mean that I would ever believe those people can't be happy in their own way. Like you said, it's basically not all black and white and everybody has their own unique life to live. And everyone should be allowed to live it passionately without people trying to change them

[@genevievemonk1108]

what about bi characters? i think the most obvious ones (from tv) would be chandler and phoebe from friends. sad thing their potential bisexuality was more of a punchline (especially in chandler's case... oh wait, there was an assumption he was gay, even tho he was still attracted to women)

[@EvaHedy]

The two of them were Bisexuals, even explicitly, I would say. Phoebe kissed Rachel and was understood that she had kissed other women before. Chandler kissed a guy once and said that he was a very attractive men. There, that's enough. And seeing your profile picture, I would also say that... Johnlock is real and I still support TJLC, so f*ck you The Take (??) (i still love their videos but my soul needs to defend Sherlock even when it broke my heart).

[@alext3480]

i just got the impression that Elsa was focused on finding who she was as a person and her belonging in this place. She was more focused on dealing with her powers and expressing her true self she wasn't interested in boys. I didn't even give it a second thought.

[@idontevenhaveapla7224]

She's not interested in women either. If you take her journey as a metaphor, it ends with "You're the one you've been waiting for". She's aro-ace. Not gay

[@sjblack9135]

Okay but Elsa LITERALLY is coded in ace colors. I will have my representation darnit!! 💜🖤🤍

[@OverlyPositiveFanboy]

She is? Neat.

[@cl5470]

I always liked how Niles Crane subverted the sissy stereotype by being so obvious in love with a woman.

[@someonerandom8552]

Lol as a kid I just assumed he was sissy because that’s just what “sophisticated” artist types were like. Guess I inadvertently picked up on a possible “artiste” trope lol

[@kimifw58]

One of the members of Monty Python actually was gay, but he hated the camp gay stereotype. That's why they constantly made fun of it.

[@Mecharnie_Dobbs]

Didn't work. Putting something in a joke, normalises it. Exaggeration sudgests the existence of a thing to be exaggerated.

[@Justaguythatcameby]

@@Mecharnie_Dobbs for joke to be problem someone should see it in a serious way, and belive it or not a lot of people take s joke seriously except the ones that complain about it

[@monkeytennis7477]

Yes but all the Monty Python members dressed in drag characters or played varying degrees of gayness at one time or another in the show, I've since learned that gay in England is a way more commonplace thing, an everyday thing, than in America where they're treated so much differently and shamed/shunned/murdered! for it, etc. In England, it's like, part of their culture I guess. The gay member of Monty Python was Grahame Chapman, I hope I've spelled his name right. He died of cancer, not Aids.

[@mankytoes]

@@monkeytennis7477 It's not that much better, we're a bit less homophobic mainly because we're less religious, but when Monty Python was being made society was still massively overwhelmingly homophobic. However what we call "camp comedy", men in drag and very obvious "queer coding" is popular in old fashioned comedy.

[@monkeytennis7477]

@@mankytoes Yes it seems to be an old fashion comedy staple. I've seen some George Formby movies (he's my favorite) that have campy stuff in them. Also who can forget brilliant Mr. Humphreys on Are You Being Served? Always hinted at, not overstated, but the audience knows and likes him anyway. Oops, almost forgot Benny Hill too.

[@Permafry42108]

I think what people don't get about Frozen is Elza isn't coded as a lesbian or bi, but as an Aromantic heroine who is finding her way in a world that doesn't understand her. My main issue is that they don't use the word Aromantic or Asexual explicitly in text or outside of it, in part to leave it ambiguous but also because people would be mad no matter what they do;

[@Abraham-gf1oi]

Projecting much

[@YourMajesty143]

@@Abraham-gf1oi - This is the 2nd time I've seen you triggered by the ace interpretation. Are you queerphobic or something?

[@viddork]

Would anyone really expect to hear the words "aromantic" or "asexual" in a movie for pre-teens? Is "aromantic" even a word? (Spellcheck doesn't think so.)

[@YasaminRajabloo]

Why do people want to assume Elsa is Gay just because she is not in a relationship with a man?relationships aren't for everyone,you can enjoy your independence,life,goals without being tied down to a man or a woman. (I'm straight and I don't see myself getting married or living with someone else,we exist)

[@morethanalark]

I agree with almost everything in the video, except the explanation for Elsa. As others have mentioned she seems to be more aro/ace than a lesbian. Also, I get the unknown female who could be a possible partner to the female character / siren call to discover that part of yourself you sense to be missing or that you've been hiding, and if we didn't know the voice didn't belong to Elsa's mom, Iduna, it'd fit a little better. However, it is Iduna who is calling Elsa to go on that self-discovery journey, not for romance, but for herself and for her family's truth.

[@draguta8995]

Except that Iduna is dead, or at least, she's not there at the glacier calling to Elsa and it's not even her calling to Elsa in the memory, either. Iduna is calling to Air to come play with her, which happens a couple of different times in the flashbacks. To me, what's happening is that Air is using the memory of air vibrations of Iduna's voice to call Elsa. And in my opinion, Water is working with Spirit to show Elsa the memory of Iduna in order to help her find herself and fulfill herself in her powers.

[@agoodday9247]

Old timey filmakers: "We have to warn the youths about the dangers of being seduced by the arts" "By golly's beard, you're right! How shall we do it?" "Mhmm, let me think....I've got it: The arts!"

[@sarroumarbeu6810]

xDDDD

[@millsgurl8358]

One reason why I love Kipo and the age of Wonderbeats was because they have Benson, one of it main characyers, just says "I'm gay" and gave his a boyfriend. Too bad its didn't get the attention it deserve

[@Hallows4]

I'm surprised Anne Rice wasn't mentioned here. "Storied" by PBS did a great essay on how queer-coding was a big part of Interview With A Vampire (Louis and Lestat), and how her works helped to mainstream LGBTQ+ representation in pop culture.

[@emilycurtis4398]

I think on the special features for the Interview with a Vampire film, Lestat dying from the blood of the dead was supposed to have the physical traits of someone dying from AIDS.

[@rociomiranda5684]

Just because a woman doesn't want to be with a man it doesn't mean she wants to be with women. It can also mean she wants to be alone, period. Not everyone is interested in romantic or sexual relationships.

[@whatever3161]

Do you guys know Nathan from the 2009 show Misfits? I feel like he's queercoded as bisexual. He fits the hypersexual bisexual stereotype and is also a bit flamboyant. Not to mention all the subtle remarks and actions towards guys he makes or says, especially towards another character named Simon (which can be seen as joking around, but the whole idea of queercoding is to make it subtle to avoid an obvious display of genuine queerness which could scare audiences away). The show even made an episode where he is actually openly lustful for Simon, but at the end the show framed it as simply being the result of a tattoo that the villain of that episode gave him (with that the show could basically avoid having a genuine openly queer main character and queerness was simply used as a tool of the villain)

[@PokhrajRoy.]

I think the clips shown here are the ‘Things you didn’t get as a kid’.

[@lykeos69500]

I am sending that video to everyone I know and have ever known. It explains the enthusiasm I had for characters that friends could not care less about, and the fierce disappointment in something people kept telling "but there is nothing there you imagined it all". Seeing yourself in some subtle hints only to get called "crazy" when you ask for it to be recognized makes your relation to many movies/tv shows very complicated as an lgbtq person. And it explains why I get so protective of shows like Hannibal.

[@someonerandom8552]

Yay. A fellow Hannibal fan!

[@racheljohnson3850]

I disagree that Xena and Gabrielle is queerbaiting. They were heavily censored by production execs (they weren't even allowed to have the two leads in a scene together in the opening credits) who didn't want it to be a "lesbian show". However, the creators, writers, and cast all pushed the text as much as they could to represent them as a romantic couple and immediately after it finished airing came forward and said they were a romantic couple. They also did multiple interviews throughout the run of the series alluding to purposeful subtext being written. Queerbaiting didn't exist in the 90s as queer characters/relationships were still censored. Xena and Gabrielle were as maintext canon as they could have been for the era that they were in and the creators did what they could to portray that. Anyone who has watched the show can see that they are very much lovers (and canonically stated soulmates who marry in their reincarnations).

[@sunnysied713]

*Frozen:* Elsa is a character who doesn't have a love interest.🤗 *LGBTQ Fandom:* She must be a lesbian!🤩 *Frozen:* Wuh? What? That's not what we were going for.😅

[@ryanappleton3653]

Imagine if in the Buffyverse, Buffy and Faith decided to date. There's been so much lesbian subtext in their interactions with Buffy being the more submissive and conservative one and Faith being the dominant and aggressive one. They said it themselves, "Thank God we're hot chicks with superpowers. Takes the edge off. Comforting." Or maybe they're both bisexual, but bisexuality wasn't discussed as much back in 90s or 00s TV in the healthiest or kindest way. Having Willow fully address herself interested in girls while still maintaining her colourful femininity and the humble and heartwarming relationship with Tara who was taken from the show far too soon.

[@christopherb501]

Anyone know how queer the Boom comics have been?

[@taniasantiago991]

You should talk about the new PPG live action. Where they decided to make Buttercup a lesbian JUST because she was the tomboy one.

[@sm0kzd]

I’m my opinion bubbles is lesbian

[@shinlee3045]

It's the CW. They already ruined Supergirl. What do you expect?

[@alexgaggio2957]

I mean, I don't really care about the live action PPG, but I equally hate this idea that a character CAN'T be queer because it would be too stereotypical. It you get rid of the queer coding and actually go by openingly queer women in media, very few fall under the "butch" or even "soft butch" category. Hell, most don't even have short hair. It feels just as a queerphobic to police representation to be "non-stereotypical" when in reality there's nothing wrong with a queer woman being a tomboy/butch and a queer man being effeminate. The issue is not the stereotype but deciding that that is all the character is.

[@unicorntomboy9736]

@@alexgaggio2957 You know a gay man can be masculine

[@FacebookQueen]

Really? SMH 🤦🏻‍♀️

[@thandondlovu5392]

I am I the only one who's now thinking of how awesome it would be if Eloisa from Bridgerton was a lesbian. Someone please write that story.

[@ralv511]

I think that's direction they're heading into, hopefully.

[@flamebunny6511]

Yes! especially since her sorry in the book sucks. Sad to see this strong girl become a babysitter essentially instead of a loved wife 😔

[@islasullivan3463]

It would also be awesome if Benedict was confirmed to be bi/pan because that seemed to be where his story was going last season.

[@mariadejesusavila7897]

I hope she's asexual, it kind of gave me the vibes.

[@mayaklast6334]

Just because Elsa isn't heterosexual doesn't mean she's homosexual. From the movies to everything you've just said, she's aromantic asexual... can't we keep just this one character for once? We actually need representation too... ^^'

[@taiyabazaheer9492]

Agreed 💯💯 she's acearo, even Idina Menzel confirmed that.

[@ana-cr2tg]

TOTALLY, we have absolutely no representation excepting a few characters who's plot isn't even the main one

[@RandomSkyeRoses]

Unfortunately, people have rigid views about sexuality and relationships

[@deathmetal11111]

I don't have a "political" interest in this fight, but I agree, leave the character as is. She's good that way.

[@MsPrettyVermin]

Same with Sherlock, I was majoringly miffed that LGBT stole him to be a gay icon as the original Sherlock had zero interest in sex.

[@bubusaur]

Supergirl writers are queerbaiting Supercorp (supergirl and lena luthor) shippers so hard. Like they literally write romantic tropes for them and parallel them with the canon couples from shows in the Arrowverse.

[@thomassalois3508]

Everybody knew that Xena and Gabrielle were lovers didn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out

[@msjkramey]

Why cant Elsa be ace? That's the real vibe I get from her (to be fair I haven't seen Frozen 2 tho). Like, feeling the need to pretend isn't exclusive to bi and gay people. And she didn't take a love interest with her when she ran away. She wanted to be alone

[@RandomSkyeRoses]

I feel the same way about Will Beyers from Stranger Things

[@alicephoenixpoetryjournal9062]

I thought she was ace too! It makes more sense tbh..

[@Abraham-gf1oi]

Why can’t she be gay? Kids need this kind of representation more than you do. Her songs are allegories for the lgb experience. Why can’t Moana be ace? Why can’t Merida? It doesn’t make sense with Elsa. Sorry, but it just doesnt

[@msjkramey]

@@Abraham-gf1oi why did you leave off the t...?

[@RandomSkyeRoses]

@@Abraham-gf1oi That's why she can be gay and asexual. She can be homoromantic. That way, Elsa can represent lesbian and asexual people

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

“See how I glitter” Lindsey ellis: oh did... did someone call me?

[@avekatumba4794]

His Inferno Majesty (HIM) ability to switch from low to high marvels me.

[@mariarosemarie]

Favorite band for that reason

[@finland4ever55]

That's one of the few actually valid examples. Scar being simply flamboyant isn't him being gay. Anyone can be flamboyant

[@agoodday9247]

That's what HIM stand for!? Nearly 20 years and I thought it was just an odd name, I mean one of the other villains is called Mojo Jojo so 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@avekatumba4794]

@@agoodday9247 I looked it up. His name is always capitalized.

[@ToruKun1]

"Why can't a woman be more like a man?" LOL when Henry Higgins' character is so misogynistic people think he's ackshually seekritly gay

[@roseofoulesfame]

I like to call this kind of "being so macho everyone suspects you're gay" scenario "The Top Gun Phenomenon"

[@AllieOk]

You did NOT just show The Good Place's Attempt 218. I'M STILL CRYING WE COULDN'T SEE THAT

[@BlackReshiram]

The Take spoiling me with that A+ grade content lately

[@trinaq]

I agree, I absolutely adore all of their content, and it never fails to enlighten me!

[@BlackReshiram]

@@trinaq Exactly!

[@jacobodom8401]

@@trinaq I disagree, some of their recent takes have been “yikes“

[@trinaq]

@@jacobodom8401 Fair enough, while I've liked and enjoyed most of their takes, the only one I've vehemently disagreed with was their "Harry Potter" video, though it thankfully got taken down due to massive backlash.

[@KitkatKate333]

Interesting to use the Trunchable as an example of a "villanous lesbian", when Miss Honey is totally coded as a cottagecore lesbian lol. I think there's coding for both the deuteragonist and the antagonist there.

[@someonerandom8552]

Omg I never realised that hahaha. I remember Lindsay Ellis making a joke how the movie framed Matilda’s relationship with miss Honey as a bit too “happy.” And now I cannot unsee it lol

[@christopherb501]

* Trunchbull

[@KitkatKate333]

@@christopherb501 thanks lol. Been spelling that wrong my whole life!

[@ailincs6348]

@@someonerandom8552 That's not funny, is terrible and implying grooming while again making a lesbian coded caracter the villain.

[@nuriamurogio5814]

The Take: adds the "see how i glitter* clip Lindsay Ellis: nodding in approval

[@camillelund6044]

It just goes to show how unaccepted asexuality is. Luke Skywalker and Elsa show no attraction to either sex, and we therefore assume they must be gay.

[@georgeprchal3924]

Can't sit in chair properly? Now I'm just thinking about Princess Mia in the first Princess Diaries.

[@54032Zepol]

Just imagine yourself sitting on your couch watching broke back mountain and then bam! all of a sudden your gay!

[@yonawurzburger5327]

Nooooo!

[@jacky79322]

Some people actually think like this and it’s funny.

[@teresabarbosa316]

Emotions and sexual impulse are not black and white; I watched it and felt gay , yet I identify as a straight woman

[@AnnoyingMoose]

*you're

[@YourMajesty143]

@@teresabarbosa316 - You "felt" gay, what does that even mean?

[@em4672]

At first, I was wondering why we wouldn't be considering Elsa ace, then I remembered the ace community has pretty much no hope to lean on about seeing representation that major. Lesbians can be more invested, maybe, since there are actual openly lesbian main and secondary characters in existence in popular film, at least.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

The Ace Ventura Climax was so disturbing. It’s burned into our retinas.

[@gabrielguerrero7296]

H E M O R R H O I D

[@otakusamsay1953]

That scene is so classic and over the top! 🤣

[@sketchios5158]

fr

[@PokhrajRoy.]

@@otakusamsay1953 Classic ‘90s with Transphobia and Gay Panic. OTT is for the ages 😂

[@otakusamsay1953]

@@PokhrajRoy. " do you really want to hurt me? Do you really want to make me cry?" As every dude including the dolphin realize Finkle is Einhorn. Honestly it was just a different time. Like in #2 when Jim Carrey was escaping that fake Rhino. Its just absurd crude humor.

[@ambergrislo1070]

For some reason this helped me feel more confident to come out to my clients. I have always feared it “saving” myself from an uncomfortable conversation but damn I’m hiding a part of myself I need to come out

[@shayb4498]

Did it go well?

[@Hallows4]

“Good taste is almost more important to him than being a good person.” To be fair, anyone with too much money and not enough to do could arguably fall into that kind of behavior.

[@ci690]

I was so hoping to hear your thoughts on Raya and Namaari from "Raya and the last Dragon". Because the are so gay and they are so good at it. The tension gives me chills every single time.

[@JinxSanity]

I never found Elsa's state to be a implication of her being gay, and if it is then is kinda a unfortunate almost fear mongering message. So Elsa comes out and let's her powers go a.k.a comes out of the closet, but then it ends up nearly causing the destruction of Arendelle and also hurting her sister in the process... so does that mean that being gay can be destructive and hurt those closest to you unless you can Control your sexuality?? Seriously I don't see Elsa's powers as a good metaphor for being gay especially with hurting people and learning to keep them under control as if being a lesbian was a curse, which the movie explicitly states is the case with Elsa's powers and how they ruined her childhood. As for Elsa being canon Gay, it was more a product of the fandom.. and wasn't like the whole fandom at first pushing Elsa as being Jack Frost's girlfriend back when Rise of the Guardians was relevant and popular and they petition Disney and DreamWorks to work together to make it happen?? Then it faded from popularity once GiveElsaAGirlfriend became a trend?? So this whole thing really feels like a fad for me since I witness the fandom switch from Jelsa to Gay Elsa in a minute. I'm more for Elsa being Asexual and needing more Asexual representation since people tend to forced every character to always be ship with someone even if they don't need to. Not everyone in real life ends up married or ever meeting someone special.

[@mynameisreallycool1]

I agree. Plus it plays into the idea that if a girl doesn't have a boyfriend, she MUST be gay. Some of us just don't want anyone. At least the LGBTQ community has Raya and the Last Dragon now, which apparently hints at the protagonist being gay (I don't know, I haven't seen the movie yet). It would be cool to see an openly gay Disney princess who is actually canonically gay, not just speculated though, so I don't blame people entirely for over analyzing characters and trying to reach to make them seem gay, but I'm fine with Elsa either way, and I like that she has no love interest at all. That already by itself it groundbreaking. When Frozen came out, the only other Disney princess who didn't have a love interest was Merida from Brave, which only came out a year before if I'm not mistaken, plus people say that she "doesn't count" because Brave is also a Pixar film.

[@mynameisreallycool1]

Also I remember the ship with Jack Frost too. I also remember that around that time, people were also shipping Elsa with fricken ANNA, her little sister. 🤮 Sometimes some ships are better ignored.

[@papkinn]

YES THIS It's ok to read movie in different way it's ok to have theories and wants but why do we need every single princess to have a romantic interest? Specially when people like Idina Menzel literally tells interviewers Elsa is type of person that doesn't want it? It feels so wrong, it's hard to look at it as asexual aromantic and seeing thousands of people just invalidating idea of character being single for representation for a group that have it way more then us, representation of gay women is important yes but... why can't aces and aros we have someone? Hell you don't need to be ace/aro to like single Elsa, i've seen many women being happy there's Disney princess showing girls they can be badass ass kicking single woman or feeling validated in being one themselves, women are still being shamed for being "cat ladies" characters like Elsa can change that.

[@jeanettemily1109]

Yes this!! I really wish people understand how important asexual representation is too. Let Elsa be our asexual queen

[@hallievanoutryve3109]

Agree!!! They got that wrong!

[@saraa.4295]

In the case of xena i kinda think it started inadvertadly and became stronger due to the positive reactions of the fans..which i think is a funny trope in itself..fansteering ;)

[@Itcouldbebunnies]

Yes, and it ended up being one of the greatest love stories of all time. The creators weren't queerbaiting, they had to bury Xena and Gabrielle's romance in (often barely hidden) subtext because the network forbade them to write the couple as lovers.

[@saraa.4295]

@@Itcouldbebunnies that's the weird thing about gay couples....since most networks were forbidden to show any physical intimacy between them they had to find other ways to show the love between them which odten made for better love stories than the straight ones, where sex often is the shorthand for closeness...for example tara and willow

[@Itcouldbebunnies]

@@saraa.4295 Ah yes, Tillow...❤ One of my favourite ships, right up until the creators decided it was a brilliant idea to bury their gay.😢

[@saraa.4295]

@@Itcouldbebunnies i honestly do not think tara was part of the bury your gays trope..i think she was part of wheedons: show your main character loose a lived one trope.. I mean for buffy: angel died, came back left, ryley left, spike died. Xander: anya died (and all the others were demons) giles: jenny died..

[@Itcouldbebunnies]

@@saraa.4295 I'm trying to reply to you, but for some reason my message keeps being removed. There's nothing remotely offensive in the message, so I can only assume that it's because I recommended some videos from other channels. Weird.

[@PenniDeadful]

"[...] Until Black Panther disproved this too." So. Funny thing about that: For the release of Black Panther over seas, especially in China, Chadwick Bozeman's face was taken off the movie poster in order to not drive away Asians audiences. They only showed Black Panther with the mask on.

[@LucyAnne1]

Frasier is my favorite show ever, it's a shame younger people don't watch it as much today. Such smarter, better writing than Friends and most other sitcoms of that time. Anyway, this video is amazing, thank you for making it 👏🏼🙌🏼