r/audiophile - Get $50k Sound from a $5k System! - www.AcousticFields.com

[@tk380514]

Fix the room first, learn the room modes you're dealing with, test the empty room for its frequency response, then add the furniture, the add the gear, then test again, then start adding curtains/panels/clouds/bass traps and test if they had the desired impact. Then maybe change the listening positions and the speaker positions, and tinker until you satified. Do not add to much absorbtion as you may kill the room. People just want to flex about how much their gear cost, thats why they spend thousands on cables which make no difference at all.

[@Totalplonker]

That's a bold statement. I'm just wondering what your experiences are for you to come to that conclusion. Perhaps you would like to share. If interested, this is the reason why I purchase non false economy cables.. Even though I'm an avid 2 channel stereo music lover, I also love the occasional movie, too, and due to the lack of space, I have to optimise my setup for multi-channel listening also However, when it came listening to my newly discovered audiophile grade multi-channel setup, I immediately became aware of how the room sounded different. Didn't know what it was at first, but coming from an audio black background, there was no way I was prepared to put up with it! Even after auditioning 3 separate AVR's, the same ambient sound of the room was still present! That told me the unwanted faint background signal noise I had been experiencing (poor description) had nothing to do with the actual units. Therefore, my attention changed to the cables. And even then It was only on the third occasion after previously living with two separate sets of cables that finally I ended up purchasing shielded cables. I'm happy to report my noise floor within my small room finally came down to satisfactory levels. Cables often act as antennas for attracting RF, and the longer the cable, the better the antenna. Probably explains why when I used to disconnect my heights and surrounds within 10 minutes, the faint background signal noise (RF/EMI) within my small room used to disappear/dissipate. The more cables I shield, the quieter my room becomes, and the better the shielding, the more the chance the cables are likely to disappear. In fact, the last group of cables I changed were my HDMI's and lo and behold the last little bit of intermittently high frequency interference I had been putting up had finally been extinguished. If one has the same sensitivities and is looking to address this matter, but is also hoping to notice (hear) the incremental differences, I would suggest starting with analogue cables before moving on to digital and power cables. Trying to achieve a totally silent room sadly has turned into obsession for me. However, the results speak for themselves. There are times when pressing pause (or mute), my small room has now become so quiet that I'm actually unable to differentiate whether the system is on or if the system is actually switched off. Of course, audiophile equipment helps, but in reality, for one to have a totally silent room, cables are where it's at. When friends or guests come over, I used to show them how loud the system goes. Nowadays, I prefer to press mute and show em how my quiet it goes None of them gets it, of course 😂

[@AcousticFields]

Absorption that "may kill the room" is treatment that lacks the proper rate and level of absorption for music and voice. This is a common trait associated with building insulation. If you are serious about room resolution, keep all furniture except listening position out of the room. Curtains lack the proper rate and level of absorption for music and voice. You can use curtains with multiple layers of materials that have a density of at least 26 oz. / sq. ft. for certain frequency issues at that wall surface area.

[@sidesup8286]

I don't know anyone anywhere who buys expensive cables to brag. They're tucked away behind the equipment on the floor. If someone wanted to play "Mr. Big" they'd buy big impressive speakers or something. People who buy expensive cables do so for sonic improvement & most of the expensive cables give that to them. I have much experience with cables. There ARE cables I wish I hadn't bought, but every one of them were cheap cables, every one of them & under $300. Things get way more consistently good at several times that price. That's where things really start getting fun. There was one recording in particular (among many) where when I used the expensive cables you could hear all kind of things you couldn't hear with the cheaper cables. The subtle buzzing of a synthesizer in the background, a wood block, breath inhales of the background singers and a soundstage sounding much expanded. I could demonstrate the above always occurs with the costly cable, as many times as anyone would want. Those instruments disappear into the dense mix with cheaper cables, and you simply cannot hear them. With the expensive cables you can not only clearly hear them; but they even have presence somewhat. That's a LOT of improvement! These cable deniers will not respond back if called out on it. Their beliefs that cables are snake oil is deep seated, but based on nothing at all. They have there theories etc. but reality trumps their theories a trilliin times over. They don't feel like spending. They're misding out on much, but that is not the main concern. The main concern is that they are trying to discourage as many people as they can from trying cables. And then THEY miss out too. That's what doesn't sit well with me, and is a concern to me. Some of them might mean well, but they should realize their experiences with expensive cables (and usually it's none) does not make them anyone credible to go by; or to give advice like that. It's bad advice that cables cannot make big improvements. improvements.Don't go by that!

[@keplermission]

You know EMI speakers? They were made by a record company in England and today they come at the lowest prices because nobody knows them but at a fraction of a watt they produce the deepest bass you ever heard. They're too big for cars and they're not 1000 watt sub-woofers, outside your room, they're not going to sound like a party Disco, but in small rooms, these are awesome speakers! We have to be sat in front of them when they come alive and they're like the QUAD ESL-57 in that respect but if you're behind them or at the side, well they sound pretty bad so don't get caught out. Get in front of them and use high fidelity inputs and you won't get better low power speakers.

[@jondu-sud274]

An excellent series of ’how not to’ and then ’how to’. Very practical guidance for audio set up in the real world. Thank you.

[@AcousticFields]

Glad it was helpful!

[@niccster1061]

Question, I am a college student in an apartment and my room has a decent amount of "slap echo". Are there any relatively cheap/non-teduous ways to tackle that?

[@AcousticFields]

What you are hearing is a symptom of reverberation which is defined as to how long a sound stays around within a room after it has been sung, spoken, or played. You will need to use a sound absorption technology that focuses on the 125 - 500 Hz. region. You can use our open celled foam technology which is availble in 55" x 75" sheets. You can attach the sheets to the walls witha 3m adhesive putty that will not hear the foam or the wall. Place one sheet on each wall as a start and live with that surface area coverage for a period of time. More can be added later if needed. www.acousticfields.com/product/acoustic-foam/

[@jordantewari]

Question here, do speakers need to be especially equal distance from the side wall if there is a distance greater than 5 feet. Does it matter that much?

[@AcousticFields]

Keep all distances equal. This is the way that two channel stereo is best served.

[@jordantewari]

thank you. I have a room above the garage where one side of the wall is wider than the other side. I have speakers on the wider wall. Nice tall ceilings, but the whole room narrows about 2/3s into room and my sitting position is almost center of the room closer to the front wall. Very challenging to set up because it’s not a normal shape room by far.

[@mesterha]

I have a setup with 6 feet on one side and 10 on the other. Works fine. If you're concerned put diffusers at first reflection points, but they don't matter much at my distances. I find bass traps to be the only thing needed.

[@AcousticFields]

@@mesterha Fine is a relative term with no reference to performance parameters. It is an opinion and opinions vary. What does not vary are the requirements created within two channel set ups.Two channel stereophonic playback has physical requirements that must be met in order for the time signatures of sidewall reflections to arrive at a delayed time signature window below the direct sound. This is how you achieve the ultimate in resolution from a two channel set up. With unequal distances, you are creating phase.

[@mesterha]

@@AcousticFields As long as the reflected sound arrives more than 5 ms latter, it is not perceived as distortion in the direct sound. If his speakers are more than 5 feet away from the side walls, he should be fine. Also I don't see the point of bringing up phase in this context. It's reflected sound, so it's going to have phase differences with the direct sound. Are you saying that the phase of the reflected sounds should match up? Why? There is all kinds of reverb bouncing around with phases that don't match up.

[@middleearthltd]

I figure out 1/2 of the lowest wave that fit in my room Is that a good idea or can low 1/2 waves that are longer than the room work. ?

[@AcousticFields]

This is not the correct approach to use. Most energy below 100 hz. will not fit in any small room. This is the hard truth people do not want to accept. This is why no matter what your dimensions are, you must treat the pressure issues produced by below 100 hz. energy regardless of dimensions along with the reflections from the walls, floor, and ceiling.

[@middleearthltd]

@@AcousticFields thank you I do accept the physics and trying to live with reality

[@AcousticFields]

@@middleearthltd Focus your reality on two main issues: pressure and reflections.

[@middleearthltd]

@@AcousticFields yes will do just that Thank you for the great content

[@AcousticFields]

@@middleearthltd You are welcome.

[@Jim_St_Clair]

He says that it's never a good idea to place a subwoofer against a wall." He then says of low frequency energy, "we don't want to put too much we don't want to put too little" ... "The balance is achieved by room dimensions and the proper amount of low frequency treatment in the room." He doesn't mention the cheapest and simplest method to balance.... turn down the subwoofer volume. There is nothing wrong with a subwoofer against a wall.

[@AcousticFields]

There is nothing wrong with a subwoofer against the wall if your goal is room gain which is distortion. It is quantity over quality. If you want quantity over quality then by all means use distortion to achieve your obectives. We are about the ultimate in room resolution and that can never be acheived with using SBIR (speaker boundary interference response) as a resolution goal. Its very definition is all about distortion.

[@glenncurry3041]

I know you've been hitting reddit for the images. But I'd love to see your comments on KZbin channel Jay's Audio Lab. Like his more recent "Meet The Best Speaker In The World In 2017". Hundreds of thousands in hardware in a relatively small room.

[@Oneness100]

I've seen his videos, He uses a mish mash of acoustic treatment, but off hand, he sits right up against the rear wall, which is a bad idea. The reflection off the back wall is almost as loud as direct sound, but slightly delayed. Not a good idea. He has WAY too much equipment in between the speakers. Also, not a good idea. He usually puts speakers that are simply too big for the room.

[@AcousticFields]

There is no such thing as the best of anything in any world. This is marketing hype. I have not seen this site but with a statement like that I do not need to.

[@Oneness100]

@@AcousticFields I think he’s referring to his setup and treatment choices. It’s just the title of the recent video.

[@TheNathanMChannel]

Pretty soon Jay won't have anywhere to sit. He's now got FOUR giant amps sitting like four feet out in front of the speakers. He can do whatever he wants and that's fine, but the amount of stuff between the speakers bothers me. Not only because Dennis says so, but from my own experience. It just bugs me to have all that stuff there. Jay could afford to do Nasa guy's room and I don't get why he doesn't build the golden ratio dream room. To each their own.

[@Oneness100]

@@TheNathanMChannel He has fallen into the same trap as most "audiophiles" have fallen into and because he's a dealer, he's kind of part of the brainwashing process. They idolize gear and whatever level of understanding and comprehension of acoustics and acoustics treatment is rudimentary, at best and they do not understand low frequency issues and how to properly treat them, they do not understand placement of gear and listening position, they do not understand how to choose the right treatment, amount of treatment and placement of treatment. I've seen better and I've seen worse when I look at the rooms of audio dealerships, product reviewer and rooms of private high end systems.

[@StrangeBrewReviews]

Tekton speakers,Schiit gear and a good source. Done.

[@AcousticFields]

Focus on the gear / room interactions. They both contribute eqally in the sonic presentation value you finally hear.

[@StrangeBrewReviews]

@@AcousticFields speakers above everything by 80% or more.

[@aa5az423]

@acousticFields many times you say don’t put the subs against the wall. I’m listening, not being critical here. But you never say what the guy with the picture should have done with the subs for placement. Can you help us out here?

[@AcousticFields]

Study the term SBIR which stands for speaker boundary interference response. It will explain the distortions produced by locating energy sources close to walls. The exact location of a sub would depend on room dimensions, the amount of energy inside the room and a host of other variables I would not now from the pictures.

[@aa5az423]

@@AcousticFields thanks

[@dicmccoy]

How do you know about his sub against the wall is detrimental? Were you there taking measurements? I've had subs in one room want to be shoved up to the wall to align with the mains, and in another room they wanted to be ahead of the speaker. Same subs and speakers. The room decides what works, not your criticism.

[@AcousticFields]

Correct. The dimensions of the room decide not the walls or boundary surfaces. Keep all energy producing devices away from walls, floor and ceiling. This is the impetus behind our sub platforms. Do a simple test. Elevate your sub from the floor by 18" in its current position. Now, move the sub away from the walls and corners and take another response. You will see a 3 - 6 dB difference.

[@Oneness100]

he has done LOTS of measurements on where the best place to put the sub and where are the worst places. It's always best to put them far away from any boundary, whether it's the front wall, corners, or even the ground. What was the process for you to measure for optimal placement? Or did you go by visually what looks the best? Maybe he can give you some advice on how to measure.

[@dicmccoy]

@@Oneness100 I'm taking about that users specific room. Was he there taking measurements? No! Phase does weird shit in rooms, and in certain rooms in conjunction with certain speakers, sometimes the subs want to be up against the wall. That could be that the speakers themselves have a less than stellar group delay and step response and the sub is just that much quicker. There is no be all end all for sub placement. So let's agree to disagree.

[@Oneness100]

@@dicmccoy I’ve never heard of any room where the sub sounds better up against the wall. You’re loading up the surface with a lot of energy. Take room measurements of the sub placed up against the front wall and then move it to right next to the listening position.

[@tomclark7551]

Weird reL always says to put subs in the corner

[@AcousticFields]

Lets use a little common sense. Companies produce products that go into the corners of rooms. Why do they do that. There must be something within the corner that creates a need for sound absorption technology. It is called room gain or distortion. Now, lets take a low frequency energy device times two and place it in the same corner that produces distortions that require treatment. How can that make any sense? Why would we want to amplify those corner distortions. Remember, quantity is not quality.

[@tomclark7551]

@@AcousticFields I'm with you man

[@FOH3663]

​@@AcousticFields You're referring to room gain as distortions?

[@AcousticFields]

@@FOH3663 A distortion is anything that is added by the room to our sound. Remember that half of what you are hearing is your room and the other half your gear.

[@Music_time82]

​@@FOH3663 don't try and condescend a person who knows more than you It makes you look foolish. 'A distortion is a change, twist, or exaggeration that makes something appear different from the way it really is' By this definition a subwoofer with gain is 1 million percent distortion!. That's why Dennis knows most people with systems are actually not getting good sound. Gain knowledge and apply that knowledge and you will succeed

[@howardskeivys4184]

I’ve strived for 40 years to assemble an audio system that reproduces music the way I like to hear it. The nature of my job is such that I frequently have to move from one home, to another. So I’ve experienced my audio system, set up in multiple listening environments of wildly variable shapes, dimensions and construction materials. With out exception, it is always my audio system’s sonic characteristics that dominate the room, shine through! Not vice versa. Don’t suffer room anxiety.

[@loveDRAGONCON]

You are clearly missing the point lol. Admitting that you have never hear them in a properly acoustically treated room. It does matter. A lot. kzbin.info/www/bejne/m36vcmieZdObbtU

[@howardskeivys4184]

@@loveDRAGONCON acoustic treatment can alter the sonic characteristics, ambiance of a room. Whether that constitutes an improvement is surely down to personal taste and preferences. My point was, that I’ve never experienced a listening environment which stifles the sonic characteristics of my rig. If, you are fortunate enough to have a dedicated listening room? Furnished solely with your rig, listening chair and maybe, beer fridge? Acoustic treatment may help. If, like me, your hi-fi has to fight, for it’s right to be in the family lounge? Then it’s highly likely, that the ‘stuff of life’ curtains, sofas, rugs, cushions, carpets Etc are sufficient to keep RT60 levels within acceptable limits. Also, our auditory system have evolved over hundreds of thousands of years to use reflected sound for spacial awareness. We can easily differentiate between direct sound and reflected sound. That’s why I’d easily recognise my hi-dis sonic signature, regardless of the environment it’s reproducing music in. Invest in equipment that loads the room correctly, you’ll minimise or even negate the need for correction. If you want to eliminate the room, use headphones. Most of all, enjoy the music.

[@loveDRAGONCON]

@@howardskeivys4184 sounds like your life sucks lol. Sounds like a lot of crying about your life lol. Just because your life doesn’t allow for it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t make the most difference. I do have a dedicated room utilizing the actual information Dennis’s channel provides, and it does make a difference. I have two of the exact same speaker in my family room and it is not even close to the same sound. Clearly you would rather wine than experience what is actually possible.

[@loveDRAGONCON]

@@howardskeivys4184also so somehow just because your life doesn’t allow for the space for a properly treated room, discredits the carbon technology and one dimensional diffusion Dennis uses? Do you not even read your own words?? Physics don’t lie lol. Your feelings do though. Just try to be more open to the world and maybe you’ll find what’s actually out there.

[@howardskeivys4184]

@@loveDRAGONCON I’m merely sharing my experiences with building an audio system that reproduces music the way I like/choose to hear it. Your experience is obviously different, so you’ve reached a different set of conclusions. If you told me your favourite car to drive was an Audi Q7, I wouldn’t patronise you, because you’ve not experienced driving a Bentley Flying Spur. So please extend me the same courtesy. Isn’t shared experiences the way to expand your horizons, not elitist views that there is only one truth.

[@rb032682]

good stuff

[@AcousticFields]

Thanks.

[@sevestan]

Place each speaker two feet away perpendicular to each ear...problems solved. Yer welcome.

[@AcousticFields]

You can not make generalizations like this without knowing much more about the room dimensions, the amount of enerrgy placed within the room, along with many other variables.