r/ProRevenge - Useless Karen Boss FRAMES ME to FIRE ME! I Destroy Her Life.

[@GoinBand2]

Wife of an attorney here. You would not believe all of the nickel and diming that some law firms will do to their own attorneys. And my husband isn't even a litigator. I would argue that in my husband's case, it would be himself first, the client second, and the firm third.

[@tmntfangirl4700]

Story 1 - LOL serves the bastard right! Illegally towing vehicles away for a parking spot then getting caught by the police with a weighted bait car… Brilliant.

[@crichtonbruce4329]

I keep wondering how that boy's Daddy reacted when he was arrested.

[@tmntfangirl4700]

@@crichtonbruce4329Who knows. Either he got angry and tried to get the charges dropped or he ripped his son a new own.

[@Ryanthusar]

Honestly, if that little f'er illegally towed my vehicle, and it was all caught on cameras which are obviously watching the carpark since it shows him doing it before then, I'd be suing the crap out of the school for allowing it to constantly happening since they know he shouldnt be doing it and arent doing anything about it. And this wouldnt just be me against the school, it would be a class action involving EVERYONE that ever had their car towed.

[@wmdkitty]

@@Ryanthusar I'd ask them to assign him a parking spot. In the farthest-out, gnarliest official parking spot on campus. If he complains, just remind him he wanted his own assigned parking spot.

[@silverflight01]

Story 3: It's often those who claim "I know what I'm doing" that end up not knowing what they're doing. Frank basically screwed himself over by not taking OP's advice, which lead to the insurer to not pay him. Whoops, Frank

[@Lans32485]

Story 1: I can tell you exactly why he got away with it for so long. I'll bet Travis was a big shot on one of the school's major sports teams, and no one wanted to piss off their star player.

[@cmlemmus494]

Possible, but more likely this is simple obliviousness. A school is going to have dozens of cameras and no one has time to watch all of them, all the time, looking for problems. Towing vehicles without permission may be illegal, but not everyone knows that and it sounds like he wasn't hiding the vehicles, just putting them in different spots so he could park. Illegal, dangerous, and damaging to the cars, but not something an administrator is going to jump on to do extra work. So what the school has is a couple of students complaining that their cars are still in the school lot but not where they left them and blaming another student with no proof. What's more likely: that school administration is putting risking their jobs to protect one asshat over a parking space or that no one volunteered to watch hundreds of hours of camera footage to see if a few student complaints were accurate?

[@idgarobingoodfellow]

​@cmlemmus494 my bet is that the person at the college in charge of looking into the complaints/enforcing punishment for breaking the rules was actually a relative of Travis, which is why it went on for so long and why he believed the rules didn't apply to him with "his" spot, but the game was up when the actual police were looking into it, and they couldn't stop the investigation or protect Travis anymore.

[@cmlemmus494]

@@idgarobingoodfellow Possible, but it's not necessary to assume that. Note that from the phrasing this was almost certainly a high school (secondary school) in the US. That means drivers are teenagers, there are limited parking spots available, and the staff is underpaid. Workers at a college would have more incentive to do something about it.

[@seran-nei227]

Story 2. In uni we studied OSInt for cyber security. One assignment was to choose a person from a company and see what we could find. In four searches i found more than i wanted to, including home address, personal numbers, childrens school, and spouse's workplace. Be careful what you put on your resume, especially if you upload it to linked in.

[@iamfubar1]

Story 1: It would have been an even bigger Pro Revenge if the police talked to the owners of all the vehicles that he damaged to have them press charges for that as well. PS> The police had to witness him stealing a vehicle to be able to subpoena the school security videos of the other incidents to be able to charge him with those counts. Story 3: Had OP not filed without instructions and the company did lose the millions they could have sued Frank for the loss...though they would never be able to collect but still. Story 4: sepsis is really bad...deadly. It kills over a quarter million people every year just in the US alone. Not really something that you can "get over" very easily.

[@meh2510]

Story 4: Yeah, my mom had uterine cancer, but in the surgery to remove it, part of her colon was nicked, sepsis set in before we knew it, and that was all she wrote. It was a pretty bad year for the family.

[@benschosseler9165]

For Story 3 you are 100% right. Imho it rasn't even a revenge story, since OP never tried to harm Frank in any way. He just did his lawyer thing. Would probabely fit better in the "entitled people" category. Still a good story though

[@Karajorma]

For that last story, I would have been so tempted to ask Pamela in for an interview.

[@lucykitsune4619]

Ikr?

[@idgarobingoodfellow]

I'm surprised that WASN'T Fluff's suggestion. Just let her come in for the interview, pretend you don't know her at all, and while looking over her resume, mention "oh, I was at that company during that time period, I don't remember anyone doing these things you say you did. Can you tell me more about your time there?" I mean, this woman put OP in the hospital, took credit for all of her accomplishments, and then conspired to get OP fired for embezzlement in order to cover her own failings. Let OP watch her squirm for a while.

[@t3hp0larbear]

Story 2: while it sounds like homework was properly done and that the guy was who he said he was, I can't help but be a little concerned that the person she was talking to was a scammer with stolen photos and identity and now some random unwitting office worker is stuck with a reputation of being a pervert on company time. Not unheard of in this day and age.

[@SoManyRandomRamblings]

Then that worker was posting pictures of their work calendar and other work things online ....which would have gotten them in trouble with their work regardless. If it wasn't them, then getting a fake person in trouble wouldn't have stopped the scammer.

[@iNDERUdmg]

I also remember seeing this story elsewhere with updates - of him being fired and cussing her out in messages for ruining his life

[@kimmccarthy7747]

If that had been an innocent person in the photos, the first thing he would have done was get a lawyer and contact OP and tell him it wasn't the same person.

[@ivanmarcusdegoeslopes1705]

Im thinking that nuclear response just makes the guy post the photos on the spot, sure it screws the guy but don't quite protects the friend at all

[@pearoberts9626]

Story two sounded made up to me

[@philopharynx7910]

For that last one, it just goes to show the value of setting up accounting controls and not giving any one person too much power without oversight.

[@wolphin732]

Story 1... likely following the laws, that they had to have reasonable grounds to get a warrant to get the surveillance data. Hence the sting. Once they have him for one case, then then could go after the data, and get them for all of the times.

[@gregorymoore1210]

Last story: you don’t do that!!!! OP did the correct thing of disqualifying her application

[@jeffreyarnold2626]

last story. shoulda let her come meet you in an interview. that's revenge watching them realize how f'd they are.

[@SoManyRandomRamblings]

That little bit of glee you get from gloating would still have a negative effect on you, by making it look to your higher-ups like you aren't good at weeding out the bad hires before the interview.

[@silverflight01]

Story 4: Pamela being hired just to appease shareholders pretty much spelled out how badly this was going to go. Lazy, hiring only personal friends, lack of empathy towards OP's medical emergency, even trying to throw OP under the bus for her own failures, pretty much everything you shouldn't be in that kind of position.

[@nicolasjoly6948]

At the end, I thought OP would interview Pamela and ask her to explain the "87% increase".... just to disqualified her after.

[@anthonygilmour6236]

Pamela may have also just been a diversity so upper management met certain personal quotas.

[@tmntfangirl4700]

Story 2 - We definitely need more people like OP in this world. And this is why I and my brother always tell people and his kids to be very careful about what you share on the internet (for other reasons but still the same principle)

[@wesleykorisky8600]

For the final story: just have her in for an interview and say, "I just had to see it to believe." And then laugh really hard, and tell her to get out.

[@d3str0i3r]

if you still have the evidence that initially got her fired, hand her a copy of that evidence "to help fix the holes and inaccuracies in your resume"

[@TheDarkLink7]

Last story yeah. She should've been interviewed by OP.

[@g.e.m6976]

couldv'e but shouldn't. DF missed the part where OP comment something along "I want to but that would make me seem incompetent in filtering the bad eggs from the higher ups/ my manager"

[@TheDarkLink7]

@g.e.m6976 yeah that's true.

[@tmntfangirl4700]

Story 3 - I have no words for this other than… ‘What an Idiot.’

[@Orxenhorf]

Story 3 - Gotta make note to never pick that lawyer or his 'older lawyer' buddy. Between the statement of putting the client last and suing without authorization (which can take away options from the client and damage their reputation) he's lucky he isn't fired from complaints from clients or disbarred.

[@kariusblood-drinker9862]

Care to explain im not a lawyer but ive seen alot of stories on lawyers

[@Orxenhorf]

@@kariusblood-drinker9862 Knowingly submitting falsified documents as an officer of the court.

[@SoManyRandomRamblings]

Last story. Those saying they would bring Pamela into the interview, know that by doing so you make it look to your higher-ups like you aren't good at filtering out the bad ones prior to the interview stage. Keep that in mind as you plot for a little bit of added "knife twisting" after you already won.

[@kristhebrownie]

I wish we didn't live in a world where insurers can try to get out of paying without legal consequences.

[@paul16451]

Honestly, the most successful business owners are the ones with enough wisdom to hire people that are smarter than they are. Hiring dumber ones for appeasement purposes only ends up in disaster.

[@yamatohime2035]

Nope. It is bad if hired hands are generaly smarter than you. The most successful business owners are smarter than people they hire but they are not good at specific task as people they hire for the specific task.

[@roobs4245]

@@yamatohime2035 Thanks for not actually giving a reason for your claim. It reeks of insecurity.

[@roobs4245]

@aurequinox Any truly smart person would not want to cap the performance of his team/company at his own limit. Having smarter people working for you allows you to overcome your own limitations.

[@denisebaldwin9292]

It would have been more fun to have Pamela in for an interview just to see the look on her face when she sees OP. :)

[@smoupnhoize]

YES!!

[@CaptainGoldberg]

OP should be brought Pamela in for an interview.

[@ryukaze7392]

Story 2 is not pro revenge. That's nuclear revenge right there

[@Devillin]

Thermonuclear if he had come to the US and got arrested.

[@ryukaze7392]

@@Devillin eeyup

[@surferdude4487]

First story: The first time I came out and found Travis's tow truck in my spot, his vehicle would have quickly developed some really expensive malfunctions. The oil filler plug would fall out, mothballs in the fuel, slow leaks in the tires, maybe even some Dexcool in the engine oil. He may even find that he left the windows down when it rains. Loosening the negative battery connection to the chassis is fun too.

[@alantran4901]

Story 2: I think in general don't ever give nudes to anyone unless you can delete the pics yourself.

[@RockinTheBassGuitar]

Honestly, I just don't send nudes. There have been too many security breaches at all these tech companies to trust even my own devices.

[@Penguins875]

It’s nearly impossible to delete pics themselves. You’d have to physically check their device. And then there’s no way to know if they saved it elsewhere and just deleted from the camera roll. And even the “secure” apps people have found workarounds to save the photos. There was even a court case where a woman gifted her husband a photo album of a boudoir photoshoot and he was allowed by the courts to keep it in the divorce because it was a gift.

[@StealthTheFoxz]

​@@RockinTheBassGuitarJust send anyone who asks a picture of pasta.

[@JamesDavy2009]

@@Penguins875 There's no such thing as a deleted file.

[@RenAsterion]

The only way I'd ever give nudes is if there was no way to identify that it was me. Body shots only. I have no tats or anything like that, so-

[@TyrMcDohl]

I would have given Pamela the interview, and just looked at her across the table at the interview, just to see the look on her face.

[@SoManyRandomRamblings]

As long as your higher ups are on your side for that...otherwise it looks to them like you aren't good at filtering out the bad ones prior to reaching the interview stage.

[@jamescaron6465]

Story 3. LISTEN TO YOUR LAWYER. You pay them lots of money so make them earn it.

[@markmatzeder6208]

Story 4: I would have called Pamela in for an interview and let her sweat through it

[@KnightDarkness-bv1ei]

For the first story why didn’t someone file in a police report for the illegal towing? If that was my car that he towed and damaged, police would be called. Plus I would be pressing charges.

[@kbramlett6877]

Regarding the last story, OP should have brought Pamela in for an interview to see the look on OP's face.

[@richardcrary2848]

Your clients (employers ) last sounds like an ethics violation to me

[@abhinavshaan]

Last story. If i were OP , i would call in Pamela for the interview just to see the horrified look on her face when she sees OP as the interviewer. OP missed a sweet opportunity here to do that

[@sailoriris4]

Rule of thumb never post anything onto the Internet you don’t want your grandmother to see or hear you say

[@mjordan812]

Last story - I would have called her in for an interview.

[@RepoDraghon]

We at a security company are always hiring people... Especially people who are too old to be working...

[@Danceofmasks]

Aww ... OP didn't bring Pamela in for an interview ... would have been a golden opportunity to open with, "so Pam, I gave Lois a call last night ..."

[@myself-cs5fr]

Story 4: She totally should have invited Kamala in for an interview and watch her squirm as you question her resume boasts

[@nerdorama009]

As a Mel Brooks fan, I love any story that includes two ledgers, one labeled "show to the IRS" and the other labeled "never show to the IRS"

[@Jedidiah_Martin_2]

Story 4: I would have gone ultra-petty and let Pamela come in for an interview, just to see the look on her face 🤣

[@rabidpanda88]

Totally would have interviewed her at the end, just so she could see my face and realize she's screwed

[@d3str0i3r]

story 4, i would have let her come in for an interview and made sure i was personally in charge of the interview/present for the interview

[@herrhartmann3036]

Story #4: OP should just have sent Pamela an email to invite her to an interview, and then wait for her to walk in the door and see who's going to interview her.

[@nancyomalley6286]

OP didn't want to waste company time on petty revenge

[@herrhartmann3036]

@@nancyomalley6286 Good point. Still would have been cool, though. I think Fluff had a story not too long ago, where the applicants pre-screening was done by someone else, and that led to a former boss actually showing up for an interview with the former underling.

[@johnopalko5223]

Story 4: I would have invited Pamela for an interview and made sure I was on the panel, just to see her face. Fluff's phone call definitely would have been fun but I think it would have been better to get her hopes up and have her make the trip in only for her to see me smiling at her.

[@taraharvey8123]

👏💯👏 *Story 2* *Girls.. PLEASE do NOT send these types of photos to ANYONE! As you CAN'T trust ANYONE!*

[@maranathaschraag5757]

I would have brought pamela in for an interview, giving her hope that she has the job, then op would walk in (or click in if it's zoom), just to see her face.

[@HappilyHomicidalHooligan]

Budget Story: If I was OP, I'd have told Mike the entire story ESPECIALLY about how Pamela got fired FOR CAUSE for fudging the Budget Numbers, then tell him I'd like him to ask her to come in for one Interview and tell her in the Interview that if hired, she'll be working on MY Team [insert Evil laugh here]... If Mike went along with it, I doubt Pamela would accept the Job if it was offered because she'd know that OP, whom she tried to throw under the Bus and Illegally Fire, would now be her Boss... 😄😁😆😅😂🤣

[@1anastudent]

God forgives but it's difficult for some of us

[@larrywest42]

Story 2 (@furtherdimensions): it's not nuclear revenge if the provocation is a violation of intimate trust *and* a felony.

[@merlinathrawes746]

College tow story: Somebody thought they were special. Too bad OP didn't know or detail the fine/sentence. Inappropriate picture story: OP's friend may be slightly dumb, but OP certainly isn't and the blackmailer is definitely overly arrogant thinking nothing will ever come back on him. The internet is not as anonymous as so many think that it is. Lawyer vs insurance story: If you want to play games with a lawyer you can do so. But you'd better be a lawyer yourself, a better lawyer. Frank obviously wasn't. Disqualified story: It's just as well OP just plain eliminated her from consideration rather than play along and get her to the interview level before eliminating her. So much easier and less time consuming. Not to mention questions wouldn't be asked from OP's higher ups.

[@endeeray4295]

The Pamela story, i think theres a saying that goes " becareful who you step on, on your way up because you might have to see them on your way down"

[@elmasterdezoologia6641]

Story 1: Either Travis was bribing someone to not rat him out, or simply nobody cared. Glad that someting was done, and I hope Travis gets his car confiscated. Story 2: Ah, I remember this story. Not entirely satisfying, but still funny none the less. But this one was not Pro. This was NUCLEAR. Story 3: Yoshi Commits Ta-Ta-Tax Fraud (Again). I wonder how did Frank's mind work. he clearly has NO idea how the legal system works. Glad that he received a reality-check. But I still feel pity for him because he most likely wasn't planning on retiring. Also, OP was the same lawyer who ruined a wife beater (a story also on reddit). Story 4: Yeah, Pamela was a nepo-baby. She deserved to lose her job. And I can imagine why she's been unable to keep a job. She needs to learn that the world does NOT revolve around her. Yeah, it was good to remember stories I had already read.

[@jamesy52]

Story 2 was amazing! I had someone try to blackmail me with revenge porn once. She got the wrong guy because I couldn't give a fuck. I'm fine with people seeing that. They'd probably be more embarrassed than I would have been. Even though we were both in Ireland and only a county away, it's technically two different countries. I'm in Derry (Northern Ireland) and she was in Donegal (the Republic of Ireland). That meant reporting it probably wasn't going to go anywhere because of the cross border stuff and the differing laws. I wish I had an attorney friend like OP. If I had more information about her, I may have tried anyway.

[@poohbear4515]

S2: It always annoyed me when I hear someone sent explicit pics of themselves to someone. Like a boyfriend, girlfriend, or a secret admirer. It’s their funeral if something happens to them.

[@eldoradocanyonro]

Yeah. Cause sepsis is almost always caused by stress. Whatever.

[@Katze3103]

the last story: I would have invited her, then tell my boss, He would have joined.... just so I can see her sweating... and all :D heheh.

[@josepherhardt164]

17:48 "What I found made my blood boil." If you're in sepsis, your blood is already boiling.

[@stephanginther9051]

13:18 That's when you give that lawyer a bonus when you win. I don't know if that's legal, but in my opinion, that counts and 'above and beyond'. he risked *his own* finances to do right by this company and that deserves a reeeaaally nice thank you card with money inside. Does the supermarket in that area _have_ a 'thanks for saving us millions of dollars' card in stock?

[@verniceaure4865]

The reason the Bandit Tower kept getting away with it is because nobody call the cops on him.

[@ryurineko]

A long time ago, at my other job at an animal shelter, myself and a couple coworkers were talking

[@ryurineko]

A long time ago, at my other job at an animal shelter, myself and a couple coworkers were talking

[@whataguy7032]

22:05.................You should have brought her in for an interview and conducted it yourself! THAT would have been poetic justice. You could have been the modicum of decorum during the interview, then just emailed her that you didn't think she would be a good fit for the company.

[@buildtherobots]

Story 1: I knew someone in highschool who kept a couple of traffic cones in the trunk of his car and he would put them in the spot where he parked. That way if he left campus during lunch the spot would still be vacant when he returned.

[@Bonked_YT]

I just ate a yummy hotdog :) Lil bit of mayo, some ketchup, onions, relish, and some pickle slices :)

[@bobbyboswell13]

the last story should have had the person let pamela meet for an interview just to see her realize who it was and watch her try to bs thru the fake resume

[@Seahorn_]

3rd story if the wolves start howling you listen

[@TheRetirednavy92]

Story 1: Tow me like that and he'd have been in a coma.

[@guerra_dos_bichos]

The insane idea that a 16yo is mature enought to drive, but drinking is for 21s... murica

[@HappilyHomicidalHooligan]

School Tow Story: OP and/or the School need to call the Police to have Travis Arrested for Illegal Towing of the cars as well as Destruction of Property... Then, have everyone that had a car damaged by Travis Illegally Towing it file a Claim against Travis's Insurance Policy... That alone should force Travis to stop Illegally Towing cars because he wouldn't be able to drive his Tow Truck due to not likely being able to afford Insurance anymore due to having his first Policy canceled due to too many At Fault Claims against him and the only Insurance Companies being willing to issue a Policy to him being the High-Risk Companies that charge an Arm, Leg, First Born and Immortal Soul for a basic Policy...

[@justinoverlock8652]

Story one, the first and only time if it happened to me, I'd call a real tow service, "oh no, my truck is broken down, please pick it up for me before I get fined for an overnight." Then I'd just let it sit at w.e garage they towed it to

[@TheAneova]

Happy Thirsty Thursday! Almost the weekend!

[@drannicetanszeling7608]

Ohhhh... Lenco Bearcat...

[@The-One-True-dorkybum]

The fuck a teenager has a tow truck for?, gotta be illegal for a kid to own one

[@jugatsumikka]

Don't they got video evidences from the guy own car?

[@JoshuaThoman]

People send pictures like nudes to people they feel they can trust. Saying that someone shouldn’t share them if they don’t want them out there is a horrible thing to say

[@chezsnailez]

we are lawyersnails... \ 🐌💼🐌💼 ~ and we approve of story three...

[@kiritomato1908]

Step 1. sending nudes to a stranger Step 2. freaking out that the complete stranger is not a very nice man. Step 3. letting you lawyer friend deal with the mess you created and never learing a lesson at all. Step 4. repeat.

[@transsnack]

Step 1. Victim blame. Step 2. Make assumptions based on nothing. Step 3. Hopefully don't repeat.

[@kiritomato1908]

@@transsnack the only people who act before thinking are either children or morons. And if you never learn the consequences of your actions you will never grow up and stay a child or a moron. This has nothing to do with victim blaming but everything with taking responsibility for you own mistakes.

[@gorilladisco9108]

In Chinese, panda is called xiongmao, which translated to bearcat. I wonder if the police car got their name from it, or it is just coincedence.

[@suzismith9011]

Hi dark fluff and all 👋👋

[@ShadeScarecrow]

NEVER EVER send ANYONE pictures of you that could be compromising in any way. Don´t put anything like that on the internet either. Same with videos. Don´t do weird shit via Webcam. Because if any of that shit gets onto just one wrong website, you will NEVER get it off the internet.

[@anniekrause9834]

Good afternoon Darkfluff!😊

[@skatardrummer1]

Lawyer OP in the 2nd story is the MVP

[@neilprice513]

The Internet isn't anonymous and people keep thinking it is. There are ways law enforcement, lawyers, private Eyes and others can easily find most people by the simplest piece on info left online. There are forums for random people who find people like this for a hobby and they are used as a resource by Law Enforcement, Lawyers etc.

[@JamesDavy2009]

This is why I never used social media.

[@user-wh5fj6pj6m]

@@JamesDavy2009isn’t KZbin a form of social media?

[@KhaiPiee]

Fluff, saying stuff like "don't send pics if you don't want them out there" is victim blaming. People have their pics stolen by spouses, friends, partners, and hackers. People should be cautious but it's not the fault of the person being blackmailed.

[@teoteo3966]

You haven't shown up on my feed in months! Missed that background something fierce!

[@lilbeanme]

Thank you ❤❤❤

[@SLOTHSRIDEUNICORNS]

Reporting from the Grand Canyon!

[@Catro1000]

Afternoon friends

[@GibMoarRam]

FlarkDuff

[@SecretSquirrelFun]

🙂thank you for the video.

[@Persholm1]

Holy deja vu Batman! Did you forget to edit out a part you weren’t satisfied with? The “a long time ago, at my other job…” part in the fist story

[@gio87vr]

Story 2 is extremely satisfying, I can positively say you make my day.

[@DavidFMayerPhD]

Why, in God's name, do women send revealing photos of themselves to men, especially men whom they barely know?

[@Flash33c]

Disclaimer: this is assuming the stories being told here are true. It's always possible one or more details aren't accurate or are left out. 1. "We know they're guilty, we just can't pin them to any crimes." - Hubert Galeforce. This is most likely the reason for the sting (assuming police weren't called before), to catch him in the act to then have more legal grounds to search the tapes. 2. This is what can happen when your blackmail threats backfire and also why you should be careful when posting things online, as unlike what some trolls think you can actually get in some serious trouble for what you say and do online if it's severe enough. 3. Know-it-alls who turn out to be know-it-littles but are too stubborn and prideful to admit it. If a lawyer is trying to give you good legal advice (especially if they're going out of their way to do so) then consider actually listening to them before it's too late like it was for Frank. 4. This is why you hire based on actual merit and results rather than just to meet or fill a quota. Pamela likely thought she'd never be punished or held accountable for her actions, and considering what happened after she got fired it seems she hasn't learned her lesson yet unfortunately. Also yes, people have been known to actually work themselves sick (such as in Japan) so it wouldn't surprise me if the OP really did get an illness like sepsis from overwork.

[@concernedcitizen1226]

AI including comments

[@Sirrantsalot]

0:48 Why did you repeat the same line twice?

[@jogermaine8600]

Not only are you liable for costs, you’ve violated ABA and if your client is pissed, you can be sanctioned by the Bar.

[@Azulakayes]

I cant believe how early I am!

[@Josh_the_jester]

Story 1: looks like he never left his "you can't sit at our table" mentality at high-school where it belongs, cause if he did wouldn't be in a TRUCK load of trouble with high insurance premiums

[@dannyfang0000]

Tow my car once. 👹

[@xariusthefurry]

you said the same line twice at the start of 1