Radio Free Mormon VS Midnight Mormons - The Debate

On November 13th Radio Free Mormon debated the Midnight Mormons
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[@missellen779]

RFM saved my husband from a very dark place. He will always have a special place in our hearts ♥️

[@abd-al-kareemqasim1711]

It’s crazy that Kwakus mother fled a cult when he was a baby and he ended up joining one himself.

[@Katiegirlluv]

Intergenerational trauma

[@legacy756]

Yeah but we are not polygamist and also the church is huge in the States so it doesn't even compare

[@markkrispin6944]

Goes to show you that you can't fix stupid.

[@lightwalker2655]

@@legacy756 what the??

[@legacy756]

@@lightwalker2655 yeah truth hurts I know, antimormons can't stand it

[@niniane721]

This was an excellent debate. I am not a member of the latter day saint church but if I were I would definitely leave it after watching this. And I would have to thank Kwaku for that. I found his anger and bitterness and bullying quite shocking.

[@JoshuaGreyJensen]

The problem is the fact they it is an entire paradigm shift for members to recognize that there is another narative to the story. Think of those illusions where from one perspective it says a word and then in three-dimensional space it turns and it says another word. For members that are in the church unless you can have that paradigm shift it's impossible to see. I left the church just recently and it is called a faith crisis for a reason.

[@tysonh424]

When I was growing up in the church, we were taught to talk about the church and the gospel in reverence, and not to be combative. It’s an embarrassment. They all were very abrasive, but the guy in the middle was probably the best of the 3, he just couldn’t speak in facts, only beliefs

[@bongodave13]

This was not an excellent debate. It was cultist apologists debating a friendly non-cultist. The Book of Mormon is a con and a complete joke. There is 0 science behind any of it. It's as real as Santa Claus.

[@jonbaker476]

RFM is honestly a badass. Logical and composed and cheeky as hell

[@tamidawn8383]

I disagree that RFM and “company” don’t offer something to those left floundering after learning “things.” They do-they created a place, a space, a community where those left reeling can be carried until they can stand on their own new feet. Because of that space I felt heard, seen and understood. A “church” is not the only thing that “saves.”

[@Sam-tu4hp]

You make a really great point! I’m glad you shared it. Thank you

[@ksparks689]

Thrive is there for that purpose, and while RFM didn’t start that, he does take part. The purpose of watching RFM and similar shows to those who have had a faith crisis is healing from things like the fear of damnation they’ve faced from leaving the church.

[@southtexasmom3017]

Way to go, RFM!!! We crown you the winner of the debate!!

[@Ex-LDS]

People like RFM and John Dehlin give me the necessary balance in my life. When I found out at 58 that the LDS Church was not true, I fell into a deep depression. The fact that my wife and daughters remained TBM did not make it any better. In that solitude, people like RFM and John Dehlin have been a blessing to me. And they still are. Thank you RFM!

[@beadyeyedwomanify]

Stand strong brother... the Lord is still saving ppl...your family can still come to Jesus...keep praying.

[@TrevorThatBandanaGuy]

​@@beadyeyedwomanifyprove it

[@jonbaker476]

As a person who was an incredibly faithful Mormon, I can testify that almost every good work you do is laced with an ulterior motive that usually has to do with getting people to church.

[@kylepederson9420]

I love how Kwaku gets all serious and lectures people about laughing at Moroni's robe while wearing a ridiculous bulletproof vest.

[@moesyah]

great point! 😂

[@Sam-tu4hp]

And after making several attempted jokes up to that point too. Then all of a sudden, no jokes! This is serious!

[@randyjordan5521]

I liked it when RFM pointed out that Moroni allegedly appeared in Joseph's bedroom, surrounded by a bright light, but Joseph's sleeping brothers didn't seem to notice it. Spoiler alert: It was because Joseph didn't make up his story about Moroni until years after it supposedly happened.

[@ericnelson9100]

They all look and are ridiculous, but on him it looks more like a romper than a bullet proof vest.

[@docsmitty4]

It's specifically because of people like these 3 that I feel perfectly comfortable never going to church again.

[@FFM115]

Poor kids, they have no idea how delusional they are! RFM has solid factual and intelligent foundation to discuss anything related to Mormonism, President Nelson would probably run away from him.

[@stevenpictures1]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mJeUn5yJotl2a9U&ab_channel=ThisSaint%27sTheory

[@dallin4]

Midnight Mormons are treating this as a personal debate, equating an assault on the doctrine of the Mormon Church as a personal assault on their character, and as a justification to assault RFM's character in response.

[@chrissessions6108]

The stakes are very high when your whole identity and self-worth depend on the Church's truth claims. To even consider that the foundational truth claims might be wrong is to jeopardize your entire eternal happiness that you are looking forward to.

[@tamidawn8383]

Well, after many many decades of membership in this church before ceasing my attendance for good in 2019, these 3 did nothing to entice me back. I tried to listen with my pre-2019 ears and even so, I actually want nothing to do with their church. These 3 are nothing like the members I know and love (except maybe Brad). Their church is very different from the one I left behind. PS my family is not destroyed, I am still married and have never been happier with my life- even in a pandemic.

[@randyjordan5521]

Dittos. Notice that RFM advised Brad to separate himself from Cardon and Kwaku so he wouldn't be lumped in with their level of character.

[@bradengv5187]

12.5 minutes in and I've heard all three on the left speak. None of them give reasons for why it's historically true at all, just culturally and spiritually meaningful or them.

[@MeToo-py1tq]

Nor Anthropological nor Paleontological, nor Biblical

[@stelladavis7832]

They should have stayed on the first topic as to why they the Midnight Mo's think that the BOM is the most correct book, leading one closer to God than by any other book. Massive claim. Their replies: I like it, makes me feel good, sustains the Bible and gives me hope. No mention as to why it teaches nothing that is unique to Mormonism like Godhood, eternal sealings/ families, three degrees, garments, temples or work for the dead. They believe the claim of the BOM because it made them feel good? This tells you everything you need to know when it comes to a TBM's testimony in the BOM

[@watchyourtonepunk]

if only their arguments were as bulletproof as their vests

[@Katiegirlluv]

They have weak arguments so they have to appear tough. It's sad

[@Sam-tu4hp]

For real though, why did they wear those?

[@davidjanbaz7728]

Or their holy knickers !

[@stevenpictures1]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mJeUn5yJotl2a9U&ab_channel=ThisSaint%27sTheory

[@Sam-tu4hp]

@@stevenpictures1 The doctrine doesn’t stand up to scrutiny and the Book of Mormon isn’t just imperfect due to imperfect beings. Anachronisms are just the start of the issues for the book

[@Katiegirlluv]

This is like watching a professional debater vs some precocious high schoolers. Since RFM is an attorney it basically is.

[@egonaigner4757]

RFM, you did a fantastic job. You demonstrated heart and intellect that towered over the Midnight Mormons group. Thank you for your years of service helping people come to a knowledge of capital T Truth.

[@FFM115]

The difference was clear, RFM knows and the 3 Amigos think they know.

[@OuttaMyMind911]

@@Raze120 An "off topic" RFM is still better at conveying coherent reality than the strongest "argument" that any of the MM's could achieve.

[@Sam-tu4hp]

Kwaku has imagined up and defends an alternate version of the LDS church and RFM comments on it every time. Great work noticing it! Many people would have missed this but he did it multiple times. RFM catches him, responds to it, and backs it up with specific examples. Very good work!!

[@nathangale7702]

I think Kwaku and people like us are hopeful that the LDS Church will be less restrictive in what is acceptable to believe about it. Really, there always has been, but it wasn't noticed as much before the internet connected geographically distant groups.

[@Sam-tu4hp]

@@nathangale7702 I also hope the church becomes less restrictive but the issue remains that it’s currently quite exclusionary

[@nathangale7702]

@@Sam-tu4hp religions change slowly. In general, I think that's an asset, not a defect...as long as they do evolve.

[@Sam-tu4hp]

@@nathangale7702 I completely agree with you! But there’s issues with how it’s been established that make those changes uncomfortable to some. Examples include prophets teaching that church leaders will never lead the church astray and are infallible (clearly, this isn’t true), making it a sin to even think leaders are flawed, excommunicating people who raise concerns and then later making the very changes they were advocating for but not welcoming the persons back, past leaders teaching racist/sexist/homophobic/crazy doctrines that later are changed into “theories” as if to say the never were doctrine (this one is a big problem). The list goes on. If god is leading, many of these errors wouldn’t be happening especially as often as they are. Either way, people enjoy church despite the shortcomings and so it is my hope that they evolve to be inclusive and welcoming and less harmful to certain groups

[@1exlds90]

@@Sam-tu4hp do they know they really enjoy the church that hides everything and manipulates them

[@byronwinward]

Anyone else dying to see a debate panel with the esteemed and worthy RFM & John Dehlin vs Nelson, Oaks and Holland? Hey, a man can dream...

[@FFM115]

Their first answer is "I believe and I feel" Well all other religious people say the same thing that they "Believe and feel" If that is the basis then all religions are true even though they all disagree with one another. Sentimentalism doesn't equate to truth, I lived in some countries where people do crazy things for their religion because they "Feel" that is true. If we use the scriptures then it's clear that God is intelligence, light and truth so we must use that to determine truth not emotions.

[@mikeyt5070]

Kwaku’s response at around 35 minutes is a perfect example of hypocrisy-rules for thee but not for me. Kwaku built his little Mormon fame around jokes and making light of serious things, he is in no place to lecture RFM re the seriousness of these topics. Utter lack of self-awareness.

[@Sam-tu4hp]

I noticed that too! Very embarrassing for him

[@fanuateleafemata2923]

The joke that’s still funny to us is your denial of when you guys say, “ but we love you”..

[@Sam-tu4hp]

@@fanuateleafemata2923 who are you talking about?

[@fanuateleafemata2923]

@@Sam-tu4hp try reading it a couple of more times until you figure it out.. you guys did a good job my MORMON brothers ..

[@Sam-tu4hp]

@@fanuateleafemata2923 you think Kwaku and the other two had a good debate?

[@personofinterest8731]

Bravo RFM. You took the armored youth TO CHURCH.

[@Lotusphere3]

RFM did a great job keeping composure. This is amazing 👏

[@garthhunt7238]

Ironic how the agnostic/atheist RFM seems much more genuinely Christian than the Midnight Mormons.

[@codyb.1194]

This debate blew me away. I'm so used to members of the church taking a hard stand with regard to what they believe. When I was a member, I wasn't afraid to say (i.e.), "Yep, that is what we believe, I know it's different and weird to most, but I believe it with all my heart." I was surprised to see how they "bent" the church's policies and beliefs to appear more mainstream thinking. RFM even pointed it out by saying that the church they are painting in their responses is not the church that gets up every 6 months in General Conference and lays down the law. Like Kwaku proclaiming that there will be gay marriage in Heaven and acting like the LDS church teaches that. Does the church know that Kwaku (whom they endorse) is out there preaching this? They treated RFM like he was nuts for having an issue with the hard-line stances the LDS church takes. It was also laughable how they would attack "the other side" and make false accusations, then in the same breathe, accuse RFM of doing the same. Example: Accused RFM's "side" of causing violence and name calling. Go back 2 minutes before this and you'll hear them attacking RFM verbally. I LOVED how RFM pointed out the DISGUSTING video Kwaku symbolizing the church violently bashing John Dehlin's head in. Anyhoo... They just got done bending the church's beliefs to fit into mainstream thinking. I wonder what the General Authorities would say if they watched this debate. Would they be more shocked at what RFM is saying, or what their own representatives are preaching. OH and I loved how the guy on the right didn't know where RFM was getting this saying that it's not okay to criticize the leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true. Um.... dude, your next-in-line prophet, Elder Oaks said it. Does he really not know???

[@randyjordan5521]

Yeah, Kwaku's comments on same-sex marriage flies in the face of basic Mormon theology about eternal families and posterity. The church's official Proclamation on the Family states: "All human beings-male and female-are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose. The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife. The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity." Nope, don't see anything about gay marriage in there. Maybe Kwaku is talking about some other church.

[@TP-om8of]

Those kids are completely unfamiliar with historic Christianity.

[@Sam-tu4hp]

@Randy G I’m still unfamiliar with a lot but it wasn’t until I had the blindfolds of Mormonism removed from my eyes that I realized just how uninformed I was! I’m still learning and growing and I’d like to think we each are doing that, but it’s harder to do it when you have your eyes and ears shut tight to new evidence or information just because it contradicts your perspective

[@Sam-tu4hp]

@Randy G thanks for your perspective Randy! Everything you said really resonates with me. Confronting one’s beliefs and being willing to challenge them is one of the hardest things anyone can do. It was great talking with you!

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@Sam-tu4hp check out Dr.Michael S.Heiser videos on KZbin: as an O.T scholar he explains the the Bible in its ancient Hebrew context and not the hyper- literalism of Mormonism and fundamentalism.

[@Sam-tu4hp]

@@davidjanbaz7728 I’ll give him a listen but you should know I’m atheist now. What religion are you?

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@Sam-tu4hp Evangelical Christian: but not hyper- literalist as fundamentalists and Mormons.

[@JustAnotherSusieQ]

I’m a never-Mormon and can’t help but see that RFM is arguing about the church doctrine, history, and policies while the others attack RFM personally. Very typical of the generation in my experience

[@chrissessions6108]

All they can offer to strengthen their case are appeals to emotion. "My religion has to be true because it helps me feel better about life and death." As far as I see it, that has zero bearing on whether or not the religion is based on truth.

[@randyjordan5521]

That's the typical tactic of Mormon apologists. I debated them for about seven years, and they constantly attacked my character.

[@ericnelson9100]

It has nothing to do with generations and everything to do with the simple fact that they don't have the truth on their side.

[@advisorywarning]

This generation is leaving the Mormon church and religion as a whole at rates higher than ever before

[@jamesrexsannatracy8318]

That’s because the truth is hard to belittle, these Mormons know in their minds that they are not correct so they use a belittling tactic to attack the messenger, Mormons are blasphemous, so they have all sorts of demons/ bad spirits on them. But to them they are perfect and non Mormons are the crazy ones. Mormons are so narcissistic

[@kien2787]

Nothing about Kwaku seems genuine

[@ajadamsv9208]

The one thing that was apparent is the church has done a good job of creating a new narrative for the young people. The church they discussed was nothing like what I grew up in. The three amigos are obviously not well read or educated but I must say that they helped my wife who was on the fence with the church to realize she’s not a TBM. So thank you for your pathetic attempt to defend the defenseless MM.

[@KnuttyEntertainment]

How do you explain the fact that 30-40% of Native American language is Egyptian in origin? Sounds like reformed Egyptian to me. m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/joK7ZZyajLSFh9U

[@ajadamsv9208]

@@KnuttyEntertainment you use a reference from BofM central to support your argument of a nonsensical language such as “reformed Egyptian”. Show me a non LDS reference and then we could have a valid discussion of the origin of languages. Start with the map below and tell me which of these known languages are you identifying? Then consider the multi migration theory vs the single migration theory. The BofM attributes the population of native Americans to a single migration happening 600 yrs BCE extending to 300yrs anno domini. The probability of the multiple languages deriving from a single migration (and over 900yrs) is so minute that no credible scholar can support.

[@Sam-tu4hp]

@@KnuttyEntertainment genetics disproves the doctrine that Native Americans descended from the Lamanites. There is zero genetic evidence to support the narrative

[@KnuttyEntertainment]

@@Sam-tu4hp Here’s your DNA evidence: m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/g52lYml9p9uVY5Y

[@KnuttyEntertainment]

Are you serious? 😂 Did you even watch the video? I linked the BOM central video because it was only 3 minutes and I didn’t think you would want to read through the hundreds of pages of the sourced research papers and books. Rejecting the video because it comes from an LDS source (independent organization not affiliated with the church by the way) is textbook bulverism, don’t be a wimp and actually engage with the science, will ya? But fine, if you’re so adamant about neutral sources, then here’s the original research: www.academia.edu/31704574/Exploring_the_Explanatory_Power_of_Semitic_and_Egyptian_in_Uto_Aztecan And single migration theory? Don’t make me laugh. The Book of Mormon doesn’t claim a single migration. I mean there’s at least 3 detailed in the text itself, plus copious amounts of evidence pointing to more. Most LDS scholars don’t even ascribe to single migration in the first place.

[@somestory9512]

First off, Kwaku, in the United States of America our constitution ensures that EVERYONE deserves a defense. Attacking an officer of the court is un American and pretty disgusting from an insolent punk whose protected life depends on the freedoms and rule of law RFM has taken an oath to defend. I have been a Mormon for over 50 years. I'm also a father, grandfather, veteran, scientist, musician, mechanic, returned missionary, high priest, and held nearly every ward leadership calling except bishop. Mormonism didn't hide anything from me. All the information was out there labeled "Anti-Mormon". From primary age on, I was told and conditioned to believe that if I read Anti-Mormon literature the devil would take over my mind and I wouldn't be able to determine lies from truth. (Celestial North Korea immediately comes to mind.) The Midnight Mormons walk a fine line between false courage and idiocy. First sight of the bullet-proof vests said mounds about the victim mentality on parade by the left side of the stage. The political innuendo was deep. Plus the flags... come on dudes. Touting religion as some moral superior over secular humanism is a joke. You guys strike me as not having read much of the oppositions' arguments. Faith alone cannot be a moral standard because, what could not be believed with faith? Faith cannot be used to determine truth. That's why there are 1000's of versions of Christianity and dozens of versions of Mormonism. Put another way by Sam Harris, there isn't Mormon, or Muslim algebra, there's just algebra. If a god could create something as complex as algebra such that it is un ambiguous worldwide, why would god make religion so confusing that the REALLY REAL church only represents .2% of his children on earth. 99.8% of the earth can't or won't accept Mormonism as packaged in its current goofy awkward narrative. Which is why they are trying so hard to whitewash history. I call that an epic fail even for the most inept god. Read the Moral Arc (Shermer) or Moral Landscape (Harris). You'll learn what it means to be a responsible caring human. I guess I can see why church leaders don't do debates. It's nearly impossible to defend the indefensible and exit with even a shred of dignity. A parting line from dumb and dumber, "what if they shot you in the face"?

[@randyjordan5521]

Yeah, Kwaku really showed his ignorance and poor character by attacking a criminal defense lawyer for uhhh, defending a client charged with a crime. It was also funny when Cardon tried to inform Kwaku that Ben Franklin defended the British soldiers who had shot American colonists, and RFM then corrected Cardon by telling him that it was John Adams, not Franklin.

[@georgemartin1383]

You worship the US government. I Worship God. I regret serving this country in Iraq and thank Jesus that the good guys won Afghanistan. Enjoy the collapse of this once God-fearing nation. I am more loyal to the pope then I am this country. Also, Joesph Smtih was a Pedo cult leader.

[@missjillmars]

Maybe it's the lawyer in RFM, but the patience one would have to have to keep their cool with those three (especialliy Kwaku) is incredible. I'd certainly have lost it within the first few minutes.

[@kylepederson9420]

I'm 10 minutes in and I see that their pitch for the Book of Mormon is a disjointed, fallacious mess.

[@sheldonrussell6284]

Kwaku is the poster child for ad hominem attacks.

[@madsoothsayer]

RFM, you made me fall in love with you all over again. You wiped the floor with them. Well done my friend! Well done!!

[@Mikha335]

Hi Chris, this is your old friend Mike. I used to be a part of your insurance business team. I see you have been introduced to RFM. Interesting...

[@madsoothsayer]

@@Mikha335 Mike who? Refresh my memory.

[@Mikha335]

Chris Collings Collier

[@Mikha335]

Chris Collings Don’t remember me?

[@madsoothsayer]

@@Mikha335 of course. Who could forget 😊 Still in the church?

[@Sam-tu4hp]

Wait wait wait. So you can trace the folk magic roots back to Europe. That makes it ok? If Joseph was divinely inspired, why did he need traditions old folk magic to do god’s will? I don’t get Kwaku’s argument for the folk magic being something pre-colonial, I’m not sure what that proves Edit: time stamp @ 24:08

[@Sam-tu4hp]

RFM makes a similar counter argument but does it much better than me

[@Sam-tu4hp]

I’m commenting a ton, sorry if that’s annoying anyone. @ 53:14 RFM hits hard with this statement!! “The church doesn’t hide stuff! I knew about this growing up” The problem is YOU might know, but so many of us don’t. It isn’t talked about typically and it turns out you might be the exception. The church hides information, denies they hide it, doesn’t want certain things talked about, and punishes those who find out and try to talk about it

[@Sam-tu4hp]

Sorry, the way I wrote that, it seems like RFM says what’s in the quotes. The quoted part is more of a paraphrase of what the MM boys said prior to RFMs response

[@emersive]

I hoped they would dive into the harder-hitting topics in church history. I felt like there was too much time spent on discussing interpersonal issues or trying to frame one another as being worse than the other. To be clear I'm always and forever #TeamRFM.

[@Sam-tu4hp]

@@Raze120 I do agree that the format wasn’t great. The questions were too long. Also, they should have had questions given that both sides could answer and have some debate about. The different questions for each made it much more challenging for real debate

[@huffdaddy3845]

Body armor? Really? How silly and juvenile.

[@Spawn303]

It’s because they asked for security and Sean said he didn’t have that in his budget. They are being serious wearing it haha

[@techwithbec]

They live in fear. They kept saying how cynical rfm is but honestly they sounded like the cynical ones.

[@JC-vq2cs]

@@techwithbec Its called projection (ty Luna Corbden) and one of the undue influence/mind control techniques used frequently to distract and play victim. By MMs and the leaders of the CoJCoLDS.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

What their magic underwear doesn't protect them???

[@Katiegirlluv]

Persecution complex

[@priscillaastling8707]

K.’s mom FLED polygamy. Doesn’t speak positively about polygamy.

[@alexandrorocca7142]

Kwaku's statement about people believing in all sorts of things is an incredible self-own. That actually proves that people are very gullible, that's why so many religions have been around millennia before Joseph Smith was born. Arthur Conan Doyle was an excellent writer and a doctor... He also believed in psychic abilities and thought that fairies were real. Good people have been targeted by con artists and charlatans since the dawn of mankind, but that doesn't prove that any of that stuff is real.

[@quacks2much]

It’s true the MMs have invented a different church than Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. The church I was in in the mid-50s to 1978 is different than MMs new Mormon church they are talking about in this show.

[@rickrenda5914]

These 3 act like Mormon history from 1840 to 2014 never happened even though the say the respect it. They want to send Joseph Fielding Smith, McConkie, Brigham Young, Legrand Richards, Talmage, and everyone else from the last 150 down the memory hole. The LDS church the y talk about does not exist. Maybe one day it will but I find it very dismissive of my 50+ years in the LDS church.

[@MichaelJantzen42]

I mean the only reason these guys know about seer stones is because of groups like RFM. I grew up in the church in the 90s and I didn't know about any of this stuff.

[@AviatorMage]

I came to listen to this after I finally caught up to the episodes in Mormonism Live where they started to discuss this debate. I was interested in hearing what the Midnight Mormons had to say until Kwaku started on "your side" at 1:13:10. The accusatory tone, the aggressive finger pointing, the deep malice in his voice just decimated any of his credibility, if he had any left. I enjoy a good debate. Kwaku and company are not worth debating.

[@ericnelson9100]

No they are not worth debating at all. There's no facts or logic.

[@WatticusGameTime]

I agree 💯 The "boys club" of Ward Radio (formerly known as Midnight Mormons after they "repented" of using the name Mormon) is essentially a replica of the General Authorities of the Church. Self proclaimed "authorities" on the history of the Church because they have "credentials" of membership in it. From my perspective, RFM has ALL of those credentials plus more namely being a legitimate and licensed lawyer and legal professional. In addition, RFM has a partner in Bill Reel who has been a bishop within the LDS Church and knows, experiencially, what a demanding role that is. These "boys" of Ward Radio looked like babies getting schooled by a man, RFM, who is not a bully, but rather a TRUE defender of many who have nobody to rescue them from the powerful and hypocrites of the world. The powerful use Jesus as a sword 🗡️ to attack others. The humble use what Jesus taught (and others) to truly love their neighbors. I believe in WHAT Jesus taught. I believe we must love one another. They Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is currently imploding because they consistently use their power, their war chest of money, their lawyers, their corporations, and worst of ALL they use the name of JESUS CHRIST to do their dirty deeds and to get their way. There might be some who are ignorant, but not all of the leaders are ignorant and they certainly cannot be ignorant if RFM and others know what they know. The day will come that each of us will face God and I believe that Jesus will be our advocate before the Father. RFM is doing his best and so are the boys at Ward Radio. May God grant us all mercy and love. I'm just a man who is suffering from a failed LDS temple marriage with 5 young children who don't have any answers, like me. It's sad. I'm here to try to make sense of it all. I pray that someday I will get answers to my difficult questions. I know this: The LDS Church is slow to give answers and they claim to have a direct connection to God. It's a funny claim that causes great harm. Hopefully we will see more honesty from a "boys club" of 15 men who are self proclaimed "Authorities" on the subject of truth. One can only hope. For now, I am looking for answers among the courageous content creators, like RFM and Bill Reel and John D., who have been exiled from the "Kingdom of God on Earth" (RFM is still technically a member) I want answers to my tough questions and the LDS Church refuses to truly be transparent. It's sad, but that has been my own lived experience. Thank you RFM for your time to "debate" these bullies and for keeping your cool when they leveled their "muskets" and made personal attacks. It really helped to expose them as the jokers and jokesters that they are who hide behind passive aggressive comedy because they look very silly when they testify about what they "KNOW" I LOVED YOUR HONESTY WHEN YOU SAID I DON'T KNOW! Amen brother

[@njp2613]

Keep in mind, this is the same Kwaku who went on Jeff Durbin's podcast for a debate with a Christian and got absolutely shredded. He was called out for his lies, called out for his lack of knowledge of historical Christianity, and promptly made a youtube video with character assassinations labeling Durbin as a "5-time felon" which is completely made up. Kwaku has a pattern. Poke, Prod, Lie, and then when called out, make up lies about the person. Pathetic.

[@FFM115]

Truth should be prevail and be the objective of everyone, these kids need to learn integrity and seek the truth no matter what happens.

[@milugarweb]

Jesus himself could be in front of this trio and even then they will lean towards LDS cult, that's how much they are brain wash

[@jimgreen242]

Well done RFM !!

[@techwithbec]

"I don't know where this don't criticize the leaders of the church came from" lololol 😆 It came from one of the leaders of your church dude.

[@lilatueller]

Straight out of Dallin Oak’s mouth

[@lilatueller]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/jWjTnXaZodmhfJo

[@kentthalman4459]

There were many stupid statements, but that certainly was one of them.

[@huffdaddy3845]

Why is it that the best friend of arrogance is wanton ignorance? Maybe because they complement each other so well. I'm sorry, but all I see from the MMs is arrogance. Their minds are slammed shut.

[@Rjrupert555]

That poor kid. His mother gets them out of one cult and he jumps back into another one.

[@lhopi]

This format was horrible. I understand why Bill didn't want to do it. You can't have a meaningful conversation this way.

[@awakening2979]

True! But we know who were the true lazy learners from this debate! RFM rocks!! He KNOWS because he studies and has facts to back him up! Sometimes Mormons are so much into their faith/feelings, and prefer to believe in lies than facts and logics!

[@GeoKnowLearning]

I enjoyed watching RFM and would love to see him in this environment more! That being said, I would also actually like to see the version of this with Bill Reel.

[@quacks2much]

Even when I was a cop and the only Mormon family in the county, I rarely wore a bulletproof vest even for the job. I was literally shot at three different times (fortunately, they missed, but barely). This bulletproof vest is one of the dumbest stunts I have seen in awhile. They must not have much faith in prayer and their god to stop bullets. I didn’t pray and survived death and serious injury. Not praying works 😉.

[@carij5320]

😂

[@GwPoKo]

They said it was to trigger people and I guess it worked haha

[@jared5449]

Love how church supporters blame RFM and others for the trauma the church caused. That's very typical in abusive relationships. RFMs lighthearted approach to things has made my faith transition so much easier. I have been shown by RFM and others that despite the troubles of a faith crisis happiness and meaning can be found...and yes, leaving Mormonism is indeed a graduation.

[@ksparks689]

These young men see a very different church than the church I saw in the 80’s to early 2000’s. It’s much easier to relate to RFM’s view of the church, even though I’m 20 years younger than he is.

[@koljag5]

"I survived proposition 8" that was asinine. Your side picked a fight and tried to disenfranchised a group of people out of bigotry. People called you bigots, deal with it.

[@enlightenstudiowithyvonner8502]

This was very enlightening. I have never been nor will ever be a Mormon. I have studied and listened about Mormonism as it’s very interesting to me and I find it helps me understand the belief of religion as whole. The MM’s seem very bought in and delusional. I just watched the Street Epistemology episode with Sean and John Dehlin. It made me really want to know why the MM’s have dug in so hard on this. I wonder if they would be open to Street Epistemology. This was really great to watch. Thank you.

[@egonaigner4757]

Kwaku ... (all of you midnight boys) ... do you actually listen to yourselves?

[@Genesis-xd1id]

I wondered that too! I remember saying stupid stuff as a kid and look back and think “what a stupid thing I said” and that’s in my head! Thank goodness it’s not on KZbin!

[@sallyostling]

No. They are playing a role. Young people are fleeing the church in droves thanks to the internet. These boys are performers showing up to say the Mormonism can still be "cool". Look at us, we are Mormon's and young, blah blah blah.

[@randyjordan5521]

I chuckled when Kwaku pulled out his phone and quoted from D&C 137 as though it's an authentic, inspired scripture---and then RFM informed him that that document had to be revised and edited by from its original form as stated by Joseph Smith because it contained several errors and failed "prophecies." I wrote some comments on this subject back in 2001: D&C 137 provides us with a dramatic example of the censorship and revisionist history that pervades Mormonism. The original writings which became D&C 137 first appeared as Joseph Smith's journal entry for January 21, 1836. The complete, unedited original is published in "The Papers of Joseph Smith," volume 2, (edited by Dean Jessee), and published by Deseret Book. The "canonized" version of D&C 137:5 has Smith experiencing a "vision" wherein "I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother..." However, the original, unedited version of this verse reads "I saw father Adam, and Abraham and Michael and my father and mother..." This significance of this is the deletion of the words "and Michael." In Joseph Smith's later-developed theology, "Michael" was the premortal embodiment of the first man "Adam." In other words, they were one and the same person. But in Smith's original alleged "vision" of 1836, Smith asserts that he saw "Adam AND Michael..." The intentional deletion of those words from the published version of D&C 137 tells us two things: One, modern LDS leaders recognized that a contradiction existed in Smith's allegedly authentic visionary experience, so they consciously altered Smith's original journal entry to eliminate the contradiction. Second, the contradiction itself proves that Smith's "vision" was not an authentic occurrence, but rather was the product of his imagination. Obviously, Smith could not have seen "Adam AND Michael," yet later assert that they were one and the same being. The published version of D&C 137 consists of only 10 verses---less than half a published page. By comparison, Smith's original, unedited account of this "vision" is four printed pages. In the original, the portion immediately following the published verse 10 reads: "I saw the 12, apostles of the Lamb, who are now upon the earth who hold the keys of this last ministry, in foreign lands, standing together in a circle much fatiegued, with their clothes tattered and feet swollen, with their eyes cast downward, and Jesus [standing] in their midst, and they did not behold him, the Saviour looked upon them and wept---I also saw Elder [William] McLellen in the south, standing upon a hill surrounded with a vast multitude, preaching to them....." Those familiar with Mormon history realize that apostle William McLellin resigned from the LDS Church in May of 1838, giving for his reason "the excesses of the church at Kirtland" (obviously referring to the failed Kirtland Bank venture and associated difficulties.) (See Jessee above, p. 241.) McLellin therefore never served a mission "in the south," and did not have the experience what Smith claimed he would in his above "vision." That shows that this portion of Smith's "vision" was fraudulent. That fact reveals why modern LDS leaders chopped off Smith's original "vision", ending the published version with the sentence that immediately precedes the McLellin portion. Modern LDS leaders couldn't allow a statement that was obviously fraudulent to be included in the "canonized" 1970's publication. For more than 100 years, critics of Mormonism have ribbed LDS leaders over the lack of any new "revelations" to add to the Mormon "canon." That causes one to wonder if LDS leaders decided to "canonize" the two "visions" in the 1970's, purely to quell such criticism. It appears that LDS leaders merely pored through decades-old statements to find something worthy of "canonization". Yet, the "canonization" of those old statements does not alter the fact that modern LDS leaders, since Joseph F. Smith in 1918, have not had any "revelations" of their own which were important enough or suitable for "canonization." The LDS Church claims to operate on "continuing revelation"; yet, the last "revelations" canonized in nearly a century, were already nearly a century old! The "canonization" of Smith's 1836 "vision" makes for an amusing scenario: LDS leaders proudly published it as a "revelation," yet in order to render it consistent with Mormon theology and the facts of history, they had to edit out the portions which were false; in effect, making a "silk purse out of a sow's ear." A basic premise of Mormon apologetics is that the Bible has been altered, mistranslated, or had portions deleted by "wicked priests" during the "great apostasy." Of course, no one can identify exactly which portions are missing or mistranslated, because no original Bible manuscripts exist. By comparison, Joseph Smith's original journals exist, and have been published in their original form, by the LDS Church's own Deseret Book Company. In spite of that, LDS leaders have revised and edited their own "Prophet of the Restoration's" documented statements, in order to suppress their contradictory portions. One wonders if, years from now, LDS leaders who altered Smith's original statements will themselves be viewed as "wicked priests" who changed "revelations" for their own interests. It should go without saying that LDS apologists' claims of an altered Bible pales in comparison to their own altering of Joseph Smith's documented "revelations." In criticizing the Bible, LDS apologists are merely pots calling the kettle black.

[@MM-jf1me]

I didn't know this. Thank you for sharing!

[@garthhunt7238]

Now we know why Kwaku is LDS, as he comes from another cult. How sad! The damage continues.

[@garthhunt7238]

What a horrible thing for Kwaku and his buddy to allege that RFM is an advocate of violence against anyone. That’s libel, and I wish RFM would sue these two!

[@greg-op2jh]

As a gay man this brought me to tears. I have alot of religious trauma and to have RFM defend my rights is beyond words. I didnt choose this and it isnt something i can control. I just want to say thank you so much. I cant even begin to tell you how much healing is done to so many people in the lgbt community by just the words of support. Sending all yall so much love. ❤

[@zcs7676]

I thought their masonic garments were supposed to be bulletproof? lol

[@Sam-tu4hp]

The truth will set you free. As someone who has come to know the LDS church isn’t true, now I’m free to re-examine the world through new lenses. I am free to ask more questions I thought I had answers to. Leaving the church doesn’t condemn someone to an awful life! There is happiness on the other side of leaving. Atheists can be happy, good people too. You don’t have to be religious to be a good person or lead a meaningful and fulfilling life

[@kaylaly7811]

They try to vilify RFM, he never said they were bad artists, that's what the church is saying, the church blames the artists for "misreprenting" how Joseph Smith translated the BOM. I was born in 1986, was active my whole life,, went to early morning seminary attended every church Sunday meeting- IT WAS NEVER TAUGHT TO ME THAT JOSEPH SMITH USED A ROCK IN THE HAT. I Learned that he used the urmim and thumim along WITH THE PLATES to translate the BOM. THERE WAS NO MENTION OF A SEER STONE! Also, I had major depression, anxiety, and even suicidal thoughts when I was an active believing member. It wasn't until I left the church that my anxiety went completely away, and my depression got better, and I stopped having those thoughts. So the fallacy that they spew, is completely wrong. A lot of people find more happiness outside of the church, because they can be authentically themselves, and I applaud RFM's line, "Outside of the church we love people BECAUSE of who they are." I find that I truly love and accept others for who they authentically are outside of the church, not just because I am told that I have to love others, even if they are "sinners". 👏👏👏👏

[@sasquatl]

Interesting discussion. This is the first time I've seen a debate between active Mormons and people who have left the church.

[@alananat6628]

I'm watching this again, remembering all of the talks which were given as I was young, of faithful members dying for the faith, and these guys show up to a debate with bullet-proof vests on...

[@me9884]

RFM you did a great job!!!

[@dianeadams9941]

I love RFM. These youth are talking nonsense.

[@RangeMcrangeface]

I try to remember they are exactly how I was at times in my youth, on my mission and the early years afterward. When you are given only one correct worldview and told only one way is okay of thinking about that worldview, should their responses surprise anyone? I believe they have a lot of dissonance by realizing on some level that the churches solutions to the problems are by far not the most likely explanation. At the same time they see the clear good in the people on Sunday. The comfort the doctrine provides at times and in certain ways and they probably have had experiences they interpret as divine approval. They want to defend their tribe because they see the good the tribe does and the good people in that tribe. I believe because of the nature of Mormonism it attracts and keeps some really remarkable people. There are also those that do not impress. Ultimately for me I made a choice years ago that I wanted to make sure I was really giving every side of every topic the proper consideration. This was a painful process and at this point I have jettisoned some of my believes religiously, politically and philosophically. I also confirmed many too. This to me is the only way to live. Wanting the truth as much as possible and doing the most good. That is a life well lived.

[@angievirdis7941]

Can I ask the trio… is having a spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ minus Mormonism okay?

[@davehigginson6126]

Anyone can have a relationship with Christ, to one degree or another, with or without the Church, but so what? Where is that "relationship" leading you? Christ's Church is the "vehicle" that conveys us along the covenant path, which covenants, making and keeping, are necessary to become like Christ and have Eternal Life. You can't follow the covenant path outside of the Church. Do you want to be in the vehicle or not?

[@davehigginson6126]

We're all kind of like children (myself included) who, when our parents are trying to take us home, we refuse to get in the car, for whatever reason. "I don't fully understand how a car works so I'm not getting in." Or, "You can't tell me what to do, so to exert my independence, I'm NOT getting in the car!" Or, "I know you're my parents and you say you love me, but I remember once you made a mistake, so I'm not going to trust anything else you say, even if you say I need to get in the car to get home." Or, "My brother's breathing my air, so I'm not getting in the car, even if it means I'm stranded."

[@southtexasmom3017]

I spent 8 years teaching early morning seminary, so 2 years on the BOM, and NEVER did our curriculum include the seer stones. And we were strictly only allowed to teach exactly what was in our manuals. JS was a storyteller and practiced his story with his famiy as entertainment, then stuck his head in a hat and re-told his story to a scribe who later edited it...all this to make money selling this great book just as the book "Review of the Hebrews" had recently done. Creating a religion was an afterthought when he realized he could control people and cheat them out of their money. IMO

[@Mikha335]

Wow! We have both come to the same conclusion. You must have a fascinating story. It’s ludicrous to think that the information isn’t controlled.

[@randyjordan5521]

You didn't hear anything about seer stones during your teaching period because church leaders and apologists, Joseph Fielding Smith being the chief among them, maintained that Joseph Smith did not use seer stones during the production of the BOM, nor did he use them in folk-magic practices in the 1820s. Church leaders have only recently begun admitting to their use because of the mountain of historical evidence which proves it. By the way, the book you're referring to is "View of the Hebrews" by Ethan Smith.

[@Sam-tu4hp]

1:37:58 Kwaku puts forth what is worse to tell someone who identifies as LGBTQ+: either that their way of life isn’t going to allow them to become exalted or that after death, there is nothing and that we are just cells. One targets the persons individual worth and makes it so they won’t have eternal happiness and the other merely says there isn’t heaven…. Kwaku says telling someone they are just cells and there isn’t an afterlife is the worst thing you can tell someone. Wow! I’m stunned 😳

[@winnithschrywer2011]

I actually also came here to listen to something I missed...but wow...the only thing these 3 proved is the arrogance of the lds...it's sickening...and crying as if on cue!!!👏👏👏👏👏

[@davidford5896]

The ACA has several sources for those struggling after their deconversion from religion. For myself, I had no struggle after I left, but it may have been due to my deconversion being a slow process that took several years, and several reasons for me to deconvert. To my family, I am just inactive. Only a few know I am full blown atheist.

[@kentthalman4459]

Kwaku mind lacks logical thinking. In one statement Kwaku bemoans the harm that unequal distribution of wealth imposes on the world, but later fear mongers leftest values. Which is it Kwaku? Kwaku never acknowledges that polygamous relationships is the ultimate objectifier of women. Brad implies, that both the husband and wife together brought in polygamous wives, even though that was incredibly rare. I highly doubt that the audience appreciated RFM's repeated reminders that the MM's description of Mormonism was fictional.

[@Think_4_Yourself]

RFM was spot on.

[@Sam-tu4hp]

32:50 was a powerful statement. It’s been my experience too since leaving Mormonism

[@davidandersen9177]

Who says that questioning the authenticity of Mormonism means your an atheist?

[@zcs7676]

lol they actually believed they needed bulletproof vests??

[@Sam-tu4hp]

I’m still trying to figure this one out. One person gave a possible answer: they requested security for the event but were told there wasn’t enough in the budget for it. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but it’s the only answer I’ve found. To me, it screams “victim-complex” or “grandstanding” Maybe they thought by doing that, it would make them seem like they were being brave by standing up for the “truth” at great personal peril. Who knows

[@davethebrahman9870]

I doubt it. Everything they said and did was an attempt to manipulate the audience.

[@allekatrase3751]

If their faith is all lies then a nihilistic dustbin is better than faith in a lie. Also, the eternity described by Mormon theology is not that great when you examine it critically.

[@garthhunt7238]

Can’t wait to see Kwaku when he’s an ex-Mormon!😂

[@andreatimmers1720]

Oh that sounds like great fun

[@OKbeingdifferent]

Fear of being wrong will keep him blinkered I think. He believes his own bullshit

[@jillfarr589]

RFM You rocked it!

[@sherylrobison1391]

Wow. That was a hot mess. No question RFM out debated but nothing was accomplished. Everyone will just keep on doing and believing (or not) as they do.

[@ianharris3502]

Am I the only one who was thoroughly unimpressed with the questions that were asked?

[@lightwalker2655]

Yes

[@Sam-tu4hp]

I was unimpressed by the format all around. The questions were too long, the different questions to each group didn’t allow for real debate, the moderator tried but there was too much interrupting, etc etc. it was interesting and the answers given to respective questions said a lot about the responders, but the event could have been a lot better

[@ianharris3502]

@@Sam-tu4hp I hadn't really thought about the fact that being asked different questions was an issue, but you're totally right!

[@Sam-tu4hp]

@@ianharris3502 I sort of understand why it was done that way. They even tried to allow time to remark on each other’s answers, but it was just too disjointed to allow for meaningful debate or discussion

[@Spawn303]

So funny what MM does at the very beginning to Bill Reel. Trying to play mind games. Making it seem like they need to give RFM a “fair” shot. Let the record show lmao. MM a bunch of whiners

[@MormonDiscussion]

Wearing bullet proof vests on the outside? Common Sense says such is grandstanding and for show. One wears one underneath so as to not allow the assailant to know. Then to do the Mic thing in the beginning offering me a mic was just as much silly grandstanding. They don't act in good faith. It's all a show. But this makes sense once you grasp that two of them are professional actors first and the third an amateur performer first. Something doesn't smell right.....

[@Spawn303]

@@MormonDiscussion facts Bill. He sure is good at the “Mormon dramatic tears” to emphasize a point, to bring in the spirit!!! Lmao

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@MormonDiscussion did their magic underwear stop working?

[@OKbeingdifferent]

​@Spawn303 I was waiting for that and it didn't take long. Textbook manipulation.

[@Sam-tu4hp]

Kwaku believes John Dee was receiving divine inspiration through folk magic. Belief confirmed @ 26:38

[@Sam-tu4hp]

By the way, if I understand the reference right, Edsels were a type of car that failed quickly and were junk. If I misunderstood that or someone else knows better, I’d love to hear it

[@sydneyspangler858]

Love RFM. Don't know who these other guys are, but they look and sound absolutely ridiculous.

[@chphotography28]

I keep trying to get through it but I can't listen to Kwaku rant about only tangentially related things. Talk about something asked. Wanting something to be true doesn't make it so. Wanting religion in your life doesn't make mormonism true. Or thinking it's a good life model isn't the same as it being true. Because people who are not mormon have also done the bad things joseph did, or because you can't convince yourself some contrary fact doesn't matter to you, or even if RFM, dehlin, any of the "known" podcasters were terrible awful people (I don't think they are, they seem perfectly stand up guys) it doesn't make Mormonism "true". And most of all you feeling the holy ghost who is known to testify of mutually exclusive things regularly, doesn't make mormonism true.

[@Sam-tu4hp]

Show of hands, who thinks anyone only has worth if they have some connection to a larger existence? Phrased another way: do people matter simply for being people, or do they only matter if god is real? Edit: clarification, this is in response to Kwaku’s (don’t know how to spell his name) answer to the first question @ around 9:50 to 10:20 (he says, if you take away a persons divine aspect, you relegate them to nothingness)

[@MM-jf1me]

I was shocked by his nihilistic viewpoint and lack of care for other humans. It's just horribly sad that he sees the world this way: that people have no value except for their connection with the divine.

[@oneacrehomestead1776]

I am not too sure the LDS leadership would like them speaking for them, the stances they took only prove further that Mormonism is nowhere near Biblical Christianity. The one rude guy actually said that two guys might be able to be married in heaven....hahahahahah that's a good one

[@aspenmgy]

I agree. The Mormon leaders would not agree with what they were saying.

[@kentthalman4459]

Agreed. especially Kwaku who spoke like an old styled literal-list Evangelical. So not the look the Church wants to portray, but hey, Kwaku did say what most Mormons are only willing to judge.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@kentthalman4459 you mean fundamentalist!

[@kentthalman4459]

@@davidjanbaz7728 Yep, they're interchangeable.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@kentthalman4459 Not everyone dude: I am an Evangelical but not a fundamentalists ! You obviously have no idea what the differences are.

[@Katiegirlluv]

All people have love for their children and profound connections to their families. This doesn't mean that Mormonism is true. Let's look at the historical claims of the BoM and the Bible first over feelings. I can say the Holy Ghost tells me the BoM is false bases on prayer, studying, and observation of evidence. So if we rely on feelings, truth is subjective. However if we look at empirical evidence we have greater proof for the spiritual experiences. The BoM has some great allusions to Christ's teachings but also it's a different gospel. ("saved after all we can do vs saved by grace").

[@ErikLiberty]

The Bible is full of contradictions, including whether one is saved by grace or if works are needed. Quiz Show (Bible Contradictions): kzbin.info/www/bejne/iHOWmGmjjbF4gc0

[@ryanbb474]

RFM for President!

[@Sam-tu4hp]

Best joke of the whole evening: 1:15:28

[@Sam-tu4hp]

You’re allowed personal revelation until it isn’t the same as the mainstream church narrative. So really, you aren’t allowed personal revelation

[@nathangale7702]

The Midnight Mormons used some surprisingly heterodox arguments which was interesting. Radio Free Mormon was also more compassionate than many ex-Mormons I've run into. Overall, I think this was a refreshing and helpful discussion.

[@Sam-tu4hp]

@ 44:58 Kwaku’s willingness to accept that mormon heaven might have room to include a man married to another man is the most progressive thing I’ve ever heard from a church apologist. It’s also one of the only things I’ve heard from Kwaku in this debate I actually liked! Let’s hope this specific kind of thinking can grow and eventually change doctrine in the church!

[@W.A.J.J.]

These questions are terrible. They are so shot gunned. Kwaku is a rambling fool. Poor kid doesn’t even see it.

[@andreatimmers1720]

He is so obnoxious. I have seen him debate b4 if it gets tough he runs or talks about the Nazis. He wants to be a white boy for the church so bad he is knocking himself out

[@Radioposting]

Sneaking a porn star into the temple to make a lesbian movie... RFM: "You say that like there's something wrong with that..." ---> PURE GOLD! If there was lesbian sex in the temple I would consider going back!