Radio Westeros E25 - The Blackfyre Conspiracy

[@mcgoda10]

really happy we're out of TV season and can get back to the books!!

[@Stephen_Curtin]

Nothing really new here for hardcore fans, but this is the summary of the Faegon theory. I think is your best episode so far. Very well done guys.

[@kevinmoore4237]

Welcome back! Glad to see S6 didn't dull your senses and can't wait for the BFish episode - your chemistry with him (on both research and presentation) is nothing short of sublime - the Battles of Ice & Fire episodes are among your very best.

[@mohsinrao4334]

***Methinks this is a bit of foreshadowing of the fake Aegon theory. It clearly points to Varys' belief in power as a mummer's trick and not residing in historically/divinely ordained houses/bloodlines. Thus for Varys it is enough for the lords and small folk to believe that Aegon is a Targaryen and all the power that accrues from the name can be his.

[@chippersonsencyclopediaemp1318]

Agreeed

[@hamidofwinterfell8002]

That or… another always makes me think of little finger. The bastard got Ned killed

[@osirisgem]

Oh my god you guys are back! and it's 5:05 am and I have been working all night, started dozing at my desk but manged to finish, was closing windows and programs and saw you have this and now I'm going to get a strong cocktail (lol who am I kidding... several most likely) and be entertained.

[@leemurdock5222]

Welcome back!!!!!! Missed the quality of this show.

[@alexanderz3556]

Aegon and The Golden Company are two elements of the next book that I'm most curious about. Great work guys!

[@SpisUchmich]

I really had to laugh a lot at "Without the cheese, the bitter meal!" Great work!!

[@RadioWesteros]

Haha thanks! Possibly LG's favorite ad ever ;)

[@gustavmarkovic31]

Definitely one of the funniest!

[@cynic1984]

nice thing to come home to after a late night shift.

[@rebquinones]

Thanks a million... I have missed these!!!! made my day.

[@AnbruchASMR]

Yay!!! So glad to have a new one. love you guys!

[@leonardmacari906]

so glad you guys are back. I get excited hearing the intro music

[@goatismyname]

Yolk Boy and Lady Gwen are back!!

[@look4lec]

Perfect episode. Love listening while I play Skyrim.

[@RadioWesteros]

Awesome!

[@nebraskajoenelson8987]

i do the same thing....i actually have a wood elf named yolkboy lol

[@charlesbubba8708]

Finally season six is over and we can get back to DANK discussions about DANK topics. Good job lads!

[@MrSpartacus1970]

great to have you back.

[@leowillis5346]

If I had friends who appreciated ASOIAF to the degree I do I promise you I'd get them to check out your content I just cant til I find some who does lol

[@6321timmy]

Already liked. Will listen later in the week. Looking forward to this. As a Blackfyre/Aegon fan, I will be very intrigued by your thoughts and analysis.

[@mariedriskell6846]

love to have you guys back, I have missed you. love this, Thanx.

[@icelolly94]

I wonder why Illyrio sounds slightly Jamaican XD Fab job guys! I'm so glad you're back and I was dying to hear you cover the Blackfyre conspiracy. Thank you for putting this episode up and look forward to hearing the next one :)

[@mateotoral364]

Yeeeeeeeees! Ive been waiting ages for this!!! Go Radio Westeros!! I followed you all throgh the season at Westeros history great to see you again!

[@mateotoral364]

Haha well listen to you really

[@dishmurphy3295]

YES!! So psyched you're back

[@maryharrison6948]

Great work as always, especially given this topic. While a fascinating puzzle, it has often proved hard for me to keep straight. I love that you explain it so well and its ramifications. Lol, I still can't decide definitively, though I lean toward Blackfyre. Either of the three options are magnificent storytelling certainly. Even came across a possible reference in Jon VIII, ADWD, "Dragons again,...Jon could almost see them coiling in the night, dark wings outlined against a sea of flame." Given the show's confirmation of R+L=J so recently, I find the scene of Varys visiting Ned in the black cells back in A GoT so poignantly ironic. What a dragon sized bombshell Illyrio and Varys for all their plotting genius, seemingly know nothing about. In a way, dear honorable Ned has likely trumped their endeavors come the end.

[@the_red_wolf6196]

I'm so glad you guys are back!

[@mohsinrao4334]

Thank God you're back! I was starved of my Radio Westeros dosage :)

[@pamelaevans-schink8707]

Great to have you back!

[@dangerdan2592]

IS THIS A NEW RADIO WESTEROS VIDEO, OH HELL YEAH IT IS!! I was watching your "Battle of Fire" episode when I glanced down and saw this video and "episode 25" and I thought I hadn't seen that one yet and, which is weird because I've watched all of your videos (some multiple times). So thank you for uploading, I have the day off tomorrow so I'm going to stay up and watch this!

[@nateedward9663]

Great job on the season review this year guys. Love this new episode as well. I lean toward this being true

[@eleanorhosking2575]

whoo hoo! Thank goodness your back, feels like forever!

[@renzgarcia84]

Though there's the possibility that Illyrio genuinely grew infatuated with Serra... just remember Vogarro and the future Widow of the waterfront

[@recatroutson3430]

YEAH your back!! We have missed you😂

[@persebra]

Thank goodness you are back! I have been suffering real bad from GOT withdrawal.

[@derekwalter4238]

Great work as always. You guys deserve so much more subs! Def one of the best asoiaf channels on this website!

[@claudiagurr264]

I believe that fAegon is a descent of Aegor Rivers and Calla Blackfyre, I also I like the idea that fAegon (or Varys) is a descent of King Aegon II or his brother Aemond One-Eye, it just seems odd that George would mention that both of them had bastards and not say what happened to them.

[@CoxinatorProductions]

Happy day! Radio Westeros is back!

[@kevinmoore4237]

"without the cheese ... a bitter meal" ROTFLMAO

[@danpallatt5413]

Thanks Radio Westeros for all your amazing videos I loved The Battle of Fire the best

[@UnknownSun556]

It is so refreshing to hear that familiar NIN remix opening again! Long live Radio Westeros!

[@childofpersia1213]

Ah, little finger and varys ...just two players, playing cyvasse with all of westeros

[@Tinripp69]

Welcome back, keep up the great work!

[@caravaggio2012]

Yes! Back to the books! And the Blackfyre/Brightflame fAegon theory to boot!

[@winterthekid]

Thanks guys for uploading this! You are the best! Numero uno! ciao

[@valleygirl4207]

So glad you are back! As usual it was a great listen makes my workday go by faster lol

[@juliemoreauquilliou8544]

I love your cheese emporium ad :)

[@Mella_Raven]

Welcome back!!

[@leowillis5346]

Omfg yes, I get tingling all over when I see the thumbnail to a radio westeros or westeros history video, time to get stuck in

[@interregnum_]

Very excited for this (and the upcoming) episode because the Blackfyre stuff is my absolute favorite thing in the history of the setting, and I absolutely love the Aegon Blackfyre idea--and absolutely hate it, too, because its significance relies on having read things from outside the ASOIAF series. Which makes me wonder how much his (potential) Blackfyre-ness will actually matter to the story, in the end. It's so late in the story to have this come up, so is it just a fun Easter Egg for his broader readership? Is Aegon just someone for one of the other characters to knock down? It's an element I really wish had been introduced earlier. But, regardless, on its own, I love the idea.

[@NeoLudditevisons]

Perfect for morning listens of a weekend! As always :)

[@thesnowinwinterfell2571]

woohoo! welcome back!

[@hambino28]

Yes, welcome back LADY YOLK BOY

[@OtherBlueFae]

+Ryan Noland Yes!!!

[@hollin220]

"A Golden Company," I see History of Westeros tendencies for cheesy puns os rubbing off on you guys. haha ... cheesy puns!

[@hollin220]

is*

[@chaysesoho4486]

Love this channel.

[@fiveheed]

Yay.. I missed your program!!

[@shaneocon21]

I've been watching the Complete Histories and Lore ( for the show, atleast) which casts an interesting light. Aerys seeing failure as betrayal for one. I appreciate a coalition of scenarios. I wonder will Bastard names be outweighed or shunned much longer considering Aegon the Unworthy saw much worth in his bastards, though Cat used his tale as a cautionary one 200 years or so on. Orys Baratheon as the rumored bastard brother to Aegon the Conqueror winning House Durrandon's assets and heritage quite nobly, it might be a new hope and perspective. The Show North is nearly decimated with Umber and Karstark essentially ended, Book Umber doing much better, surviving, Hornwood are dwindling but perhaps Daryn was castellan as Smalljon, and sent those men to Jon, or Larence Snow. Perhaps he and Jon might be legitimised by numerous ways or just seen as worthy as Jeor saw the latter.

[@Mikemcintyre19]

Just started listening. I already can't wait for you and bryndanbfish on the next ep.

[@stuartarms]

Great video and great to have them back. In regards to aegon age i took it as a point that wasn't applicable when looking into the Faegon theory. The reason being is Tyrian tells you how old young griff looks and then Tyrian still comes to the conclusion that young griff is aegon targaryn. Tyrian would know how old baby aegon would of been when he died and what year it was and how old he would be at present day. I think if there was a problem with the age Tyrian would of dismissed that young griff was aegon or at least asked how old young griff was before putting the pieces together.

[@shelleyscloud3651]

Yay that you're back!!!!! 😍

[@suwaidajalal]

Ever since this theory began to flesh out in fandom, it seemed to make poetic sense in light of the reveal of the Three Eyed Crow's identity as Bittersteel/Blackfyre's most dangerous opponent, Bloodraven.

[@beanfrompa]

Fantastic job.

[@lewdogsk8er]

How did you get Werner Herzog to do Ilyrio?

[@drkaushikde1]

hope to see new episode soon

[@SaccharineCHNOS]

AHHHH Can't wait to listen!

[@cuppycake0rainbow]

oou! cant wait to enjoy this!

[@acrefray]

Are you aware it cuts out at 2:11:13 (meaning the final 8 seconds are blank silence)? Clearly it's not a big deal, but it's there. Great episode as usual guys!

[@RadioWesteros]

Some weird quirk of the video processing occasionally cuts off the end of the audio file. Since it was just me saying 'bye!" we decided to let it slide ;)

[@nebraskajoenelson8987]

I knew stayed home today for a reason....thanx guys :)

[@nochilldil2414]

Pleeeeease put out the next video! :)

[@thunderclap7154]

Very illuminating episode thank you both. Question: Do you think the Golden Company style their hierarchy after the Small council?

[@mariedriskell6846]

re-listening and the Golden Co. is it affiliated to the archer co in 1 of the Dunk & Eag-novell's?

[@danburke6568]

I've been with the blackfyre conspiracy theory from the last book, The little Lion will take them out.

[@dominickamadeo]

Wow! Another great pod cast. I am a big fan of your show, the books, and the HBO show. I was wondering if you are going to cover Dorne? I know the show has strayed very for from the story, especially in Dorne. I love your show because you recognize that the A Song of Ice and Fire (asoiaf) books and the Game of Thrones (GoT) show are different and that you do not address GoT's plot on Radio Westeros. Many have drawn to the conclusion that because GoT changed the Dorne plot so much that Dorne will not be important in the books. I believe that Dorne is important. I would love if you could do an analysis of Dorne. What are they plotting and how are they playing the game. The Sand Snakes are a very all over Westeros and they have to be up to something. I am looking forward to future show and I hope to see this topic addressed in future installments. Respectfully, A Fan

[@RadioWesteros]

Hi there, and thanks for the kind words! We are definitely planning on covering Dorne, although we may wait until after TWoW is released (depending on that timeframe) in fact, there's so much to cover, we may end up with another series on our hands! Stay tuned :)

[@dominickamadeo]

Thank you for the response. I can't wait.

[@ASlapOfAFish]

Awesome. that's it my night is sorted thanks guys.... :-)

[@MoejiiOsmanTV]

I MISSED YOU GUYS!!!! DONT EVER DO THAT AGAIN...lol

[@TwistedTentacleInn]

So glad you're back! Are you guys on Patreon?

[@RadioWesteros]

While we welcome donations via PayPal or KZbin, we're not set up on Patreon yet.

[@TwistedTentacleInn]

+Radio Westeros how do you do donations via KZbin?

[@jimmybones4299]

+vasilie crisan they have a PayPal account linked on their regular page.

[@biropgrules]

while its an interesting theory, i feel like its way more likely that aegon is exactly what he seems to be, and that when dany does fight him, she will do so despite the fact that he's the "rightfull" king of westeros and his his claim is better than hers. showing that the dragon queen is so blinded by the lust for the iron throne that she's willing to kill even her own kin, who has offered her no harm.

[@michelleyoung9621]

Cheese Emporium...smells like rotting sea cow...BOL!!!!!!! Too funny Yolk Boy!!

[@nancygroth5908]

The baby-swap plausibility doesn't totally depend on Varys' prior knowledge that the baby's corpse would be too mutilated for recognition if/when "Aegon" was killed.... but if "Aegon" had survived, how would they have revealed him as an impostor to bring the rightful heir back, maybe the swap-in was of dark-haired parents? How secure was Gregor's chain of custody to the body to Tywin, could Varys have seized on the opportunity of the murders and had a Little Bird further smash the body to make sure?

[@guillaumeesce8113]

@ Radio Westeros : at 1h20 in the episode you mention that Varys could not possibly have known that Aegon would be unrecognizable, and that therefore he could not have planned to exchange Aegon with a fake. But would he really need to know that ? If i remember correctly, Aegon would have been less than a year old, and it is quite easy to confuse a baby for another one. Especially considering that most of Aerys's court was killed during the sack of king's landing, and that Robert and his new court and allies could not possibly know what real Aegon looked like. Right ?

[@RadioWesteros]

I think the point we were making is that Varys couldn't have known that his alleged substitute would be unrecognizable (or even that he and other members of the court who might identify him would be killed) Meaning that his plan to take advantage of that situation could only have arisen after the fact. In other words, spiriting the child away and leaving a substitute in his place only makes sense in retrospect.

[@guillaumeesce8113]

I do understand the point you're making, and to some extent I agree with it (I think real aegon died that day, althought I'm really not sure as to who Faegon really is). And indeed, the plan looks better in retrospect. The only problem I have with this, or at least with my understanding of what you are saying, is when you say that Varys could not have been able to plan this in advance (note that I don't think he did, just that he would be perfectly able to do so). Varys obviously is a very smart and scheming man, who likes to anticipate other's actions and reactions based on the informations he can find. And therefore, I believe he perfectly would have been able to anticipate that Robert would need to get rid of any surviving Targaryen, especially Rhaegar's heir. He also would have been able to know that a dead young baby can easily been presented as another young dead baby, especially to people who never saw Aegon in the first place (even without knowing about the whole "skull bashing" act). Just as he could have convince Elia to agree with this plan in order to put her son to safety, since Aerys was keeping them all ostage in King's Landing instead of sailing them away to Dragonstone, and since she was the one person he would need to tell about this plan since she would have seen this was not her son. And from Varys's perspective, it does make sense to an extent to do so. By putting Aegon away, he would have been able to have a "joker card" for later, should Robert turn out to be a bad king. Varys would have the heir to the throne at disposal, and would have been able to train him exactly how he wanted him to be, to prepare Aegon to be the "good" ruler and leader Varys officially wants to see on the Iron Throne. And if Robert would have turned out to be a good king, Varys would just have to get rid of Aegon, without anyone knowing or caring since everybody already believed he was dead. Basically, I agree that Varys most likely did not planned this in advance, I agree that the Aegon we meet is most likely not the real one, and I agree that the plan looks better in retrospect than it would have beforehand. I just disagree with you when you say that he would not have been able to do such a thing, or that the plan looks plain bad beforehand. But hey, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, i'm not saying that I'm 100% right, since I don't know. It's just my interpretation of the facts and of Varys' personality. Great episode anyway ! and thanks for your clarification !

[@TheKrostiman]

I would go one further, as long as Ageon has the look and he can be sold to the people as a Targ, his heritage doesn't matter. The people that control him matter.

[@akaraniq]

OMG!!! FINALLY!

[@sunmoon42]

What buggs me about the fAegon theories is that Tyrion who is sharp enough to guess who young Griff is does not think about him being a fake

[@RadioWesteros]

We will address more of Tyrion's PoV in the next episode, but remember that the limited PoV structure GRRM writes in doesn't always show us everything a character is thinking. For example-- Ned never thinking of Jon's true parentage ;)

[@QuicheSpaghetti]

When I saw this, I punched the air and went "yeaaaaah!"

[@sixtysix101]

hells yeah

[@GardenGnome118118]

a series of game of thrones is not a worthy trade for a couple of radio westeros episodes

[@wessaxon964]

okay, so Daney is a red dragon, young Griff a black dragon ,and Jon the white dragon . The dragon must have three heads right ?

[@mohsinrao4334]

Could you guys also do Tyrion: A Small man with a big shadow ?

[@RadioWesteros]

We'll definitely cover Tyrion, but saving it for a pair of eps when TWoW comes out :)

[@wellwood494]

Hey (Warning I haven't watched this video) I just want to know if the Blackfyre conspiracy information is in the main ASOIAF books or if it is. I am mid way through ASOS I have yet to come across any BLackfyre information yet in the main books. I am just yet to see it or is a lot of this in the Dunk and Egg series and in the History of Westeros book?

[@chaysesoho4486]

The Blackfyre rebellions were all pre-ASOIAF, a lot of the rememberances of the wars and its battles are in the Dunk & Egg graphic novels and the World of Ice & Fire book. None of it is covered in any of the ASOIAF as far as I know.

[@MrMojoRisin53]

YES!

[@timdillard274]

Seven Hells nothing but well deserved positivity on this comment thread! Thank you.

[@everdawn8212]

Yay, withdrawals are at an end! Lol

[@paultodd4480]

Great job guys! Any plans for a Bran or Bloodraven episode?

[@RadioWesteros]

Yes! But both will probably be after TWoW

[@paultodd4480]

Thanks! Might be a while then ....😂 ha.

[@dangerdan2592]

So it should be up in about 3 years...just kidding:P If it takes GRRM longer than normal to make the book the best book it can be, I'm fine with that. Doesn't mean I'm not eagerly waiting the day when he finishes though!

[@Stephen_Curtin]

Hmm I can't remember did Illyrio send instructions to Jorah to stop the wine seller's assassination attempt, or did Jorah decide to do it himself? If it was an order from Illyrio then why? Dani wasn't yet important to the scheme with Visaerys still alive and the dragons not yet hatched.

[@RadioWesteros]

Illyrio sent a letter to VIserys (who was already dead, though Illyrio didn't know it yet) which Jorah retrieved and Dany was shown, telling Viserys of Robert's offer of a lordship to anyone who kills him or Dany. The letter tells of assassins sent after her AND Viserys, who was still very much important to Illyrio's plan. In our opinion, there was either a second letter warning Jorah of the specifics or Jorah simply put all the pieces together and saved Dany because of the warning in the Viserys letter. While that may have been because of his feelings for her, no doubt he was also trying to preserve Illyrio's plans. We know he continued in Illyrio's employ and sent messages to Pentos even from Qarth after all.

[@Stephen_Curtin]

+Radio Westeros Ah yes thanks for clearing that up. it's been too long since I've read game.

[@UAPReportingCenter]

Do a battle of ice episode

[@summerstevens2547]

Varys and Illyrio are probably all different branches of Blackfyre family and why they bonded as poor teenagers. Illyrio sounds like Aegon the Unworthy come again. Probably looked more Targaryen when he was young like the statue, now he's a sea cow like the unworthy. Imagine having a dying out family line being washed away and wiped from history, that's probably why they could care less if it's a red or black dragon. Just want to keep the dragons on the throne. Some Blackfyres have more pure Targaryen blood than the "real" Targaryens. Illyrio's Serra is probably a descendent of Saera Targaryen who fled Jaehaerys and Alysanne across the narrow sea to a pleasure house in Lys. GRRM will probably leave us to wonder if Aegon / fAegon is the real deal. Elia could easily have been worried about her son and Rhaegar's heir and agreed to switch her son for a child from Lyss or a dragonseed with similar coloring before coming back to King's Landing from Dragonstone, her daughter was too old thus recognizeable to pull off a switch so she protected the baby she could. Elia's a Martell after all - they play the long game.

[@QueenDaenerysTargaryen]

No one will take my dragons.

[@EdertheJust]

Is this on itunes? I want to put this on my ipod.

[@RadioWesteros]

Yes we are on itunes! Find us here itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/radio-westeros-asoiaf-podcasts/id892536753?mt=2

[@skizzik121]

not sure if you guys have covered this but do you think sarella and alleras are the same individual? i dont recall anyone other than Preston Jacobs actually saying this but it seems pretty much a sure thing to me

[@RadioWesteros]

We haven't covered Dorne yet, but Sarella=Alleras is widely accepted by most (including us) and has been around since AFfC was published (see this entry at westeros.org's "The Citadel" from 2007: www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_is_Alleras) When we get to Dorne, we'll definitely lay out the all the hints though :)

[@skizzik121]

Im listening to this podcast right now, first Radio Westeros I have listened to. I enjoy you guys greatly in the company of History of Westeros. Keep up the great work and AMAZING content creation!

[@RadioWesteros]

Thanks so much! Glad to have you aboard, and hope you enjoy!

[@nancygroth5908]

The show has not used the entire plot line of fAegon, do you view this as a spoiler for the overall end game of the books, ie that book-fAegon will be irrelevant to the final themes and plot lines?

[@RadioWesteros]

Not necessarily, although we don't exactly expect he'll be there at the endgame of the books either. We really think this is just a classic example of what GRRM has said - "the show is the show and the books are the books." And it is interesting to see the changes that leaving this storyline out has wrought in the show's plotlines!

[@nancygroth5908]

Well, since they butchered the whole Dornish Plot[s] and gave some of Jon Connington's roles [and greyscale] to Jorah......

[@RadioWesteros]

Exactly! It's like a tapestry and when you pull a little thread things start to unravel (poor Jorah) We're sure they'll continue to parcel bits of the Aegon story out here and there while they also streamline things in their dash for the finish line.

[@kylez9094]

great show the only part I disagree with is the notion that Illyrio did not love Serra. if she were just used for her Valyrian looks, why would Illyrio marry and later keep her hands as a keepsake

[@RadioWesteros]

As we said, it is a bit of a guessing game and certainly either interpretation has points for and against, and we expect people to have varying opinions. Personally I don't find keeping someone's mummified hands to be that romantic though ;) -LG

[@SuperOm1234]

Wooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!

[@AlgrenTheBlue]

You said Aegon should be 17-18, but he is only a few months older than Jon and Dany, right? Like at most a year?

[@RadioWesteros]

Born in late 281 or early 282, shortly after the Tourney at Harrenhal. When Tyrion meets Young Griff it’s well into 300 AC, so 18 is most likely correct.

[@AlgrenTheBlue]

@@RadioWesteros ah makes sense! Thank you so much for taking time to respond. Love yalls show and just last year read all the ASOIAF books and became obsessed, still working through the World of Ice & Fire!

[@RadioWesteros]

Any time! Thanks for listening and taking the time to interact! For what it’s worth, you’re not far off as far as Jon & Dany go. He was born 283, she about nine months later in early 284. So they’re 16 and 17 at the end of ADwD.

[@kevoncox]

I used to think that Aegon was fake but I think he is real. My one reason for this is Varys' speech to Kevan. He plans to kill him, he is already dead. Why lie to him about who Aegon was? It makes no difference in the long term, as to who Aegon. Why claim him to be someone he isn't suppose to be.

[@RadioWesteros]

Assuming the boy's name is really Aegon there isn't actually a lie there! Varys makes no claim about where the boy comes from, only what he will do. Kevan assumes Varys is talking about Aegon VI because they had discussed the situation in the Stormlands in council earlier that day.

[@kevoncox]

+Radio Westeros but Varys calls him Aegon and then denies that he (Aegon the babe) dies. we have to remember that the purpose of these sections are to give the reader information. It serves no purpose to the reader is Varys simply let's Kevan go on thinking otherwise knowing that they are talking about different Aegons. Aegon is real despite the Blackfyre theory. I think it is more likely that the Golden Company is being mislead.

[@RadioWesteros]

Obviously as we said in the intro to the episode, the fandom is fairly divided on this. But if you read the passage with only the words Varys and Kevan say aloud (ie leaving out Kevan's thoughts and interpretations) it's clear Varys is not lying. Being clever and disingenuous though? Yes for sure.

[@kevoncox]

Agreed. Did you guys go to Balticon? Just wanted to add that I routinely listen to one of your shows till I fall asleep. My favorite channel on youtube.

[@RadioWesteros]

Yes we did and thanks, that's very nice to hear! :)

[@mnessenche]

I believe it is the Sixth Blackfyre Rebellion