Raid TOO Hard? Growl’s Pug Adventures | The Bench Ep. 16

[@relhaz4326]

For growl pug adventures I need a time spent in LFG and # of failed keys tracker

[@batguy5030]

@@Ugoofy1 You seem to have an auditory processing disorder, or you are being intentionally stupid. If you're a decent DPS it shouldn't be hard to build up a roster of friends to run keys. Instead, you're creating more excuses for why you suck at the game and can't get invited to content on your busted ass mechagnome, so no one wants to play with you.

[@yumytv]

@@Ugoofy1 the character isn't linked to my main account and i'm doing everything off stream

[@Ajatus11]

@@Ugoofy1 Crazy how you made up an imaginary scenario just to get mad at. 0% of this has been done on stream. His vods are publicly available to see this fact.

[@Bobington11]

I really like that Growl is doing this. I was one of the people saying that they're disconnected so this will be really interesting. The mage series was really interesting to watch last time

[@sombrego2260]

The time spent in LFG might not be too too high because he is a healer. Not being a Shaman might make it take tlonger though.

[@ericwren1131]

I have been raid leading since ICC. The problem with mythic raiding is that they are making the raids to difficult. I love a challenge, don't get me wrong. These raids are becoming far to difficult for the average mythic guild. The amount of 3rd party resources needed to do these bosses have overwhelmingly hurt the scene. The fact that people are hired to create addons/weak auras to do the fights just so it can be completed it beyond stupid.

[@GoPlayMLP]

Really hope, they’ll introduce a new difficulty just for RWF and make mythic more manageable.

[@VDHmain]

For me the biggest issue with Mythic Raiding is the roster boss. Finding 20 people that will be there 9-12 hours a week is way harder than actually progging and killing the bosses. If it was 10 players my group of friends would be raiding but heroic is just hyper boring and we're blocked by the roster boss so we just do the bare minimum to get good trinkets and only push keys.

[@svsv1191]

Facts i wish i could just have fun play the game and push keys, i don't want to hardcore raid anymore

[@user-sl3fv6qn6z]

9-12 hours a week and ur saying its hard to keep people who the fuck trying to wipe for 12 hours a week no wonder you guys struggle to keep people

[@ethannumber1]

I've recently quit mythic raiding because showing up 2-3 times per week for months is just too difficult and not fun. I miss the challenge but balancing real life obligations and letting the 19 other players down has become impossible.

[@mochi_pochi_]

This is what my group does too. Just raid because we need some gear out of it to push keys

[@padcad]

At some point Blizzard just need to try it and not worry about satisfying all the "necessary" things that 20m brings

[@GonzytheMage]

Problem with mythic raid is it doesn't have a median achievable feeling. Heroic is too easy for "good" players and deep mythic is too hard. I think that's why M+ "feels" better. 8s are pretty trivial for "good" players but 10s feel challenging for them, have a reward structure, and when they develop mastery over them they are enjoyable. 12+ is still there for people who want the challenge but are strictly optional. 4/8 mythic raid gives vault sure, but the rest of the raid doesn't give a enticing reason to continue to progress because of the steep increase in difficulty.

[@johnd2946]

The roster boss is the main difficulty of M, at least after all nerfs are done. Nobody wants to re-prog bosses with new recruits just to keep 20 players.

[@GonzytheMage]

@johnd2946 I don't disagree at all and it's criminal they haven't found a way to make mythic flexible already. A simple way to go about it is to launch the raid without any nerfs ever, lock it to 20 man and call it a prestige mode. Make mythic 10-20 flex, delete heroic, slightly increase the difficulty of normal, and make lfr ai solo queue.

[@danielschultz96]

@@johnd2946 As someone who is a recruiter for their guild and has been in guilds who struggle with bosses and roster bosses, this is just untrue, recruiting is ez

[@jrotvtube]

@@poorchris Roster Boss talk is cope. I used to think the same. But once you get in decent guilds that are actually going to be able to get CE relatively safely, most people stay and recruiting is easy. The roster boss is hard on Mythic guilds that realistically won't be able to kill the end boss of the tier. The good players will leave to get CE in a better guild, and you just slowly get worse until the guild dies. You need momentum and a good group of people in a new mythic raiding guild.

[@Hodevine]

@@johnd2946 Honestly, most guild leaders/raid leaders/officers just suck at/dont bother with putting in the effort to build an actual team of players that want to keep playing with each other. I started a Mythic raid team almost 2 years ago (of 30 players, where a handful knew each other from beforehand). We still have 15 of those same players, and none of the players that have left have done so because they didnt want to stay (except the 5-6 we've cut due to performance). Better guilds have tried poaching our players, but they don't want to leave because they enjoy playing in our team. We've put a lot of effort into vetting people before recruiting, setting clear expectations in terms of both gameplay and social aspects, as well as talking to our players and incentivizing players to socialize and have fun outside of raid as well. I realize that part of this is luck too - we've been able to find a lot of solid players that are also good people. But we've put a lot of effort into ensuring this would happen, because we want to avoid the roster carousel - and it works.

[@Kim-tr5op]

mythic raiding not also competes about other things in wow, but also other entertainment activities, other games, other hobbies, sport activities etc. This is in a world where most people value their time

[@PifnPaf]

Going into heroic splits on week 12 is some degen shit

[@Neomagam]

I guess this is somewhat related to few guilds participating in Mythic raid, but my guild is struggling with the fact that our world rank keeps going up, but the number of bosses we kill is going down. We went from progressing razageth in 10.0 to barely killing Smolderon in 10.3 and our world rank went up by over 200. The level of difficulty creep in raid is completely untenable. Its not an easy one-to-one comparison, but I think it is a fair comparison to make that Ovinax is more mechanically complex than Nzoth or Denathrius. I was more accepting of raid getting harder when the bosses were getting more fun/cool/interesting, but lately it has felt like bosses are just getting harder and more frustrating. I know it would be an unwelcome change for the highest end players who are able to achieve their goals every season, but I feel strongly that WoW needs to consider lowering the difficulty across the board. It used to be that people played WoW like a part-time job because they enjoyed it. Now it feels like you HAVE to play WoW like a part-time job just to keep up.

[@voodoo1069]

My average M+ experience this season as a Tank is pretty well summed up in what happen last night to me. I join a +9 NW we are blasting I have solid if not perfect trash control we get to the 2nd boss with 2 deaths (same guy getting 1 shot on the breath from first boss) and over 20 mins left on the time. Now we wipe 3 times in a row without getting the boss to 40% once, group breaks up. I log off to play some POE for an hour to destress. Log back in join another +9 NW same experience I got the route on lock and have great control we get to the last boss with 8 mins 1 death and then wipe 7 or more times before the group breaks up. I'm now over 2 hours of logged in time and have basically completeld nothing tonight. Normally I have a group I play with and we getting to the 22-23 range (in the old scaling) and have a ton of fun. I've also raided in top 100 a few times. So I'm a pretty solid tank that has a lot of experience adjusting to the skill of my group and quickly learn how to pull a key in away that cuts as many deaths from trash as possible because I know I need to be able to control whatever I pull. It feels pretty horrible logging in and not even being able to just turn on some music and crank out some weekly vault progression without not wanting to log out after 1 key. Started working nights so have no current friends that play any times I do now. Hurts a lot like you all said wow is most fun with friends.

[@CyrilFrantzen]

@@voodoo1069 i feel ya bro, its rough out there.

[@MRPC5]

They turned m+ into an anxiety simulator and it's just not fun.

[@sunderwire]

Yeah my friends dont even want to run m+ any more after running 100s of keys in the last couple seasons. Blizzard made dungeons too punishing for pugs. I dont even look forward to running my weekly vault key anymore like i did in DF

[@nolabets3130]

Your experience is very universal bro

[@Nyxolie]

I think one of the things you guys are definitely missing in the perspective is the time aspect, a lot of more casual players have their raids nights and then maybe 1 more night to do keys so if you get your key pushed up to a 10 and someone bricks it that may just be the end of the vault slot for you, there's a lot more riding on some of these keys for the more casual players. The same time aspect comes into play for raiding mythic, having a consistent 20 man roster for a casual guild is super punishing because you can't just have your benched people pug a few bosses and then still hop in when needed so nobody wants to be benched. You also can't expect your raiders with families and other commitments to always be there. Re: PvP mounts, I think people accept that if PvP isn't their thing theyre not getting that mount but if there's a PvE mount available they'd like an option to get one. So maybe adding a mount to M+ and Delves (other forms of PvE) would fix some of the FOMO.

[@Trick_OS]

for growls series he should def use Naesam's original rules it makes the zero to hero experience incredibly fun to watch and engage with

[@ScarletHawk]

I'm glad Growl is testing out the pug scene, especially on a resto druid :) and I'm excited to see his experiences and how he manages groups' mistakes. I'm especially interested to see his experience with the stop changes in a pug environment as well as any build tweaks he might make.

[@Painchiller]

I find it funny that people expect him so melt down or something. He did this several times and has a good mental besides beeing a good player. He will do this with ez and everybody will stay mad 😂

[@Richardawolfe83]

I do not want to run that stupid cave candle whatever the hell it's name is dungeon in m+ I feel like it would be a dumpsterfire

[@zuror9148]

Agree. The problem is, flavor wise the design of the dungeon is awesome. But for m+ the design is just awefull. Blizzard has to find a way to redesign it for m+ like lesser darkness or just remove it.

[@Richardawolfe83]

Agree

[@Kevmoeman]

Remove mythic raid lockout, add 10 man mythic, boom tons of content added into the game for the aotc ksh players.

[@wgcdrelliot8989]

ngl 10 is a bit of a stretch. 15 would be perfect imo

[@Calypsode1]

​@@wgcdrelliot8989why is it a stretch

[@derangedhermit7981]

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing an entire episode with several players ranging from a 1k, 2k, 2.5k io etc and just having a conversation about what they are struggling with and what they think the issues are. Don't get me wrong its neat to watch growl do his challenge but the one thing he can't replicate is mediocre skill. Hes just not capable of playing where the vast majority of the bell curve lies and so his opinions are colored by that to some extent. That and playing as a healer you are missing perhaps one of the most frustrating parts of the pug scene which is just getting denied to +7-8's for an hour straight between each run.

[@danielschultz96]

You'd get some amazing answers, I was spamming some 8s on my recent alt and had a run with a tank alt warrior. Run was pretty rough and tank died several times during the run. As a warrior tank main I looked at his buff uptime and saw shield block at like 30%, so just sent him a polite message saying "yo shield block is probably your most important ability on prot war, make sure youre spamming that" or something like that. Dude straight up raged and just kept calling me bad bc his main was higher io than my 4th alt. And this is someone who is doing 10s and mythic raid on their main. I can only imagine 99% of people struggling in 7s/8s either think its purely a gear thing or their teammates fault.

[@michaelc5833]

He could play mage, definitely mediocre skill there.

[@MFobes]

This^

[@GrandMaster-Broda]

Basically it would come down to why the game should be designed around pugs and not organized play. Toxicity exists because the game is overly meta driven to the point of some classes being unplayable and the cost of bricking a key being too high incentivizing it . These did not happen in a vacuum, it is mainly because of game design features like key depletion, numerical imbalances, inaccessibility to swap class because of gear, overdesign of dungeons in combination with frontal bugs and affixes like challenger's peril. These things only make sense in an MDI setting and actually may even make it more exciting, but not for pugs, they simply breed blame and toxicity. The unwillingness of high end players to criticize the game design and call for community behavioural changes is just delusional to me. The are too ingrained and invested in the game to have a birds eye view of what needs to change by being unable to walk away if it doesn't

[@Bashera46]

@@GrandMaster-Broda On the logic then tanks should just have 0 defensives to manage and just be unkillable by default. Not fair to require good defensive usage when retarded timmy doesnt press them

[@Torswan]

Mr. Squishei with the food delivery. What a nice dad.

[@ArawnTheCelt-st1bw]

Growls 0-hero Shadow lands series got me into doing ksm and aotc, it pushed me further than I think I would have ever got it if he didn't release it. Best thing I learned from that series was to use cooldowns because I always used to try and hold them too much and ended up using them a third as much as I could have. Tanked aotc this season as a druid and the last Bosses were miserable but glad I did it 😁 growl is the goat 🐐

[@itsKyyyle]

Loved growl’s zero to KSM from Shadowlands. Shit was pure entertainment. I remember some guy saying he was shit healer lmaooo

[@keithmccall2902]

MDI has super fun to watch this season specifically because of the varied comps. It gives the casters much more interesting things to talk about and prevents it from getting stale. The timing so close to the raid may be bad, but right after a big balance patch is great (for viewers). Would limiting access to the tournament realm to a set amount of time per person improve the burnout players feel? They would have to practice on live keys which would not as closely simulate the environment potentially allowing for more theorycrafting without testing and thus more varied strategies and comps.

[@AmanitaMuscarias]

Agree 💯. All healers get kicks/interrupts OR no healers get interrupts.

[@midkraft7279]

i think it is a fantastic idea with that pug challenge, but the true pain lies in DPS pugging since it is so saturated and far into the expansion, so i think it could be cool if you wanted too take that on as a challenge after, could also be a cool difference too talk about if you wanna :)

[@chaoticpotato6404]

Squishy- lpeople need defensivas in delves" Growl- moan/groan I was dying! 🤣🤣🤣

[@AmanitaMuscarias]

Agree 💯! Druid general tree is a dumpster fire!

[@Otherside7000]

I'd love to see more high-end WoW streamers have the same pug journey Growl is going on, especially as a DPS. See the game through the eyes of us plebs!

[@AmanitaMuscarias]

Yas! Growl resto druid zero to hero. I would love to watch your feedback!

[@TheKalazar]

On the whole mythic raid is dying thing: getting 20 people to set apart 6-9 hours a week, for 50 days, is hard af. Give me 10 man mythic.

[@enigmabis.]

So WoW Direct is basically this years blizzcon

[@BinaryV1s1on]

Growl throwin himself into the trenches, I approve of this motion.

[@branyawn]

I haven't pushed myself passed the 12+ wall for score. As a healer at

[@MNTrailHiker]

Regarding the mount prestige and earning rewards again after the FOMO period has ended, I've never understood why there isn't the PVE equivalent of the PVP Saddle system. For example once AoTC/CE mounts are earned in the current season, you get a bar that you can fill up by doing that activity to earn progress towards a Saddle you can use to purchase previous AoTC/CE mounts. It would keep people engaged with raid which is a needed thing over the season in many case. You could have a very similar system for M+.

[@Artesin]

I love how they speculate the "special announcement" as some hype thing, even mentioning wow 2. in reality it will be shit like "People with wow subscription can now use Office 365 for free" or "here's Mike Morhaime with special message for blizzard fans". Probably best thing that could be announced on that is maybe some animated series considering how popular Arcane is.

[@shaydwyrm]

Mike Morhaime rejoining Blizzard would be relatively big news tbh

[@arakken9081]

it could be interesting to hear the takes of an average player such as someone who struggles in 7-8s and has never done a 10 (or the equivalent in previous seasons they've played). The problem with the conversation is I don't think anything will be learned that isn't already known. If the problem is the other players in the group then the answer is to try and make friends or enter that pug grindset, if the problem is that individual players skill then they have likely hit the extent of their capability and would just be annoyed that the number is smaller than in previous seasons. This could be a pretty difficult season to try and stretch you wings so to speak and get better at the game so I can understand that frustration as well. The unfortunate answer in a game like this with scaling difficulty is it's hard and players never particularly enjoy hitting their skill ceiling when the experience isn't enjoyable, which we all can attest that pugging sucks. To solve this problem for myself I ended up making some friends that are all near my skill level and we just mess around doing keys having fun inside of our skill range.

[@bobblack2081]

I've had some godlike Resto Druid healers in my pug keys in the past week or so, I'm really hoping one of those was Growl!

[@DudeimQes]

Yoooooo im so hyped for growl's 0-ksh ive been waiting for another series. I still watch the shaman one every now and then cause i didnt play in SL. Would love to see you do 12s too but either way cant wait fr bro

[@chrissalvador8169]

Being able to push the first four on mythic is incredible. 40 gilded crests, multiple catalyst pieces, 2 actual tier drops, 2 very rares available. It’s awesome you can get those done each week to offset running 8 10s You can fill out your gilded crests with a heroic full clear and first four on mythic.

[@SatchaDahmi]

Special announcement speculation was pretty spot on they named new classic servers, new hardcore, mop classic. Legion remix is even hinted at with the legion green color at the end of roadmap line. For real though Player housing hype! And super fast ground speed car is ith drifting potential.

[@nikexd]

Make MDI have the same format as TGP. Teams can start their day doing more conservative runs to get some times on the board. Then they are start trying crazier and crazier pulls to improve their timers. MDI is boring when you watch a group go in and wipe to the first pull when the other team does not and the map is basically over within 30 seconds.

[@livvw]

I empathize with prowl's guild struggles, the biggest problem with mythic raiding is the roster boss. We ran into huge problems this raid with a revolving door of healers, dps having to switch roles or specs. It becomes very exhausting and the vibes in the raid can be affected negatively. Unlike dragonflight we actually have quite good loot throughout the raid which does motivate players. The weakaura and addon requirement for broodtwister is a huge turnoff for most people who are hoping to complete the raid on mythic. PLEASE rework priest, they are in desperate need of more agency in dungeons, it feels so bad to play when you are relying on your group for EVERYTHING, the problem existed in dragonflight but to a lesser extent. Also with the stops change you virtually don't have an aoe stop, psychic scream is SO horrible, give us a knockup or stun. I honestly think we are getting a Warcraft series announcement at Warcraft Direct, likely animated. Video game adaptations or stories have seen some success recently with Arcane and Fallout, whether that is the "special announcement" or not we will find out.

[@eona2978]

Bit random but something ive noticed is people rarely if ever use their stuns/stops anymore in the 4-8 range(the only keys I'm don't this tier) except for the xalatath orbs

[@brandonmease1303]

For the Growl pug adventure, I'm really curious what it looks like from a total keys done standpoint. I consider myself a pretty "normal" player. I raid two nights a week with an AOTC guild, and then 4-8 keys a week. That's all I have time for. So if you do this in 40 keys, that's AT BEST 5 weeks for me, more likely closer to 7 weeks.

[@linaori]

I suspect the clones being hit in mists depends on where you stand, not the line. One run 2 of our group were standing inside a clone and it hit, and I've seen the summon get hit as well. I suspect this also happens when the add runs towards where you stood when the arrows appeared.

[@jakeflynn9135]

Regarding bringing on a 2500 io player section... I agree with growl, I dont know that bringing someone on would add much. You all have a pretty good pulse on the issues in that bracket. Something I would like to hear though, is how to find good players to push with, casually. I'm currently 2800 io healer, working on my 12's mainly pugging (not by choice). No plans on pushing super high. But I like pushing up to what feels like a solid challenge. Issue I run into is most of my friends and guildies I play the game with are weekly 10 and done. Or 10's are their limit mechanically. So my question would be, what resources would you advocate for regarding finding people in similar situations that want to what I call "push casually". Meaning 13 maybe 14. Time constraints are also a big issue I face. Dad of 2, work full time, have other hobbies. It's just hard to network and find people in a similar boat.

[@CapucineAbadie]

I'm in a similar boat, with the complication that like 80% of my friends list that are decent players are also healers. Running scuffed 10s with 4 healer mains is funny, but not super helpful if you want to push 'a bit', like you said.

[@KaptenSeptum]

Hot take: Due to everyone speculating about the Goblin raid in 11.1 I'm 99.9% certain that The Motherload dungeon will be in the Season 2 rotation. More hot take: I think they will add these as well: Vault of the Warden Plaguefall 4th is up in the air due to the trend of Blizzard always taking an older instance into the pool... maybe The stonecore?

[@varoonb6593]

Question for the bench: What are y'alls thoughts on getting rid of the confusing adventurer/heroic/mythic track for different peices of gear (but keeping the crest system)? The new players that I interact with are always very confused by "I have to go get the same gear again but with a different word under the name" thing. I think the s4 1-12 track thing that was from the vendors was simpler and easier to understand. Also would it help with the "whole don't waste guilded crests on heroic track gear" problem? And by extention help people that are at the 8-10 wall slowly out gear it?

[@zeitz4473]

I made a new characters 2 weeks ago. Prot paladin and my friend made a resto shaman. (Our mains are 2700 score ish) We got 2500 score the 2nd week. First week we had 500 score. So basically just 1 week of doing m+. We went from 590 and 605 ilvl to 615ilvl within that week. And it was pretty easy. DPS are so huge right now it's really easy to pug dps. I think our experience had been drastically different if we both played dps. Point being: I think growl can finish his Challenge in less than a week

[@harioas-jm3rk]

Tettles: *hasn’t pulled the boss* actually web blades is a great mechanic

[@stanleywow]

? 100% he has killed it on heroic multiple times. Web blades is a great mechanic, its the overlaps on mythic that makes it not fun. It will 100% make a return just like blazes from Fyrakk did this tier.

[@kampa7671]

@@stanleywow And it's not like the mechanic itself changes on mythic. It's simple, deadly and looks pretty cool. Definitely worth reusing - the "spider web" theme might be hard to fit on most bosses, but slightly reworking the graphic should do the trick.

[@nickv3085]

I think 10s are honestly still very brute force able. Whenever I give up on trying to time 12s and run a few 10s for weekly vault, they feel soooo easy on heals. I’m talking about playing with randoms as well, not a set group.

[@MrGame99ice]

I said this last time and I will say it again growl please get Azeroth one you have made videos on his content. You’ve even made videos on the data that he creates. If you want to talk about anyone understanding about pugs it’s him and that would be a fantastic. Awesome video.

[@rksworld4405]

as somebody who sits on 300m gold but cant time a 10 this episode was entertaining to watch

[@Patrins]

@2:00 growl talking about "the problem" with his guild being all kinds of things except the thing thats the actual problem (starts with D, ends in rohgoh)

[@Whiskeyjack_OCE]

Whiskey's weekly update. I now have 4x keys timed at a 12 The rest are 2 chested 11s (and have been for weeks). I still have to spend approximately 2-3.5hrs in queue getting declined. Last night i was in queue from 5pm until 9:15pm with a 45 minute break for dinner and wasn't accepted to a single +12 group as a 2.8k survival hunter. I want to grind it out, I want to get better and learn but I'm just not sure how when I still can't find a consistent group to play with.

[@SuffragePriest]

When asked Blizz specifically stated "We don't think every healer needs an interupt" and then made only priests as the healer without one. In fairness I guess that means two healer specs don't have kicks? Of course then they nerfed the other tools priest had that might have been compensation for that decision.

[@zenith_journey]

I love having lots of utility and defensives. To me, wow is more fun managing these other dimensions than just doing a dps rotation. Making the game simpler means that m+ competition is decided by mostly dps. Since rotations are pretty simple, this just means it’s decided by playing the class that does biggest number and ilvl… And of course being able to pull efficiently (but this is sometimes irrelevant in certain dungeons, grim batol xd). These things are quite true even now, but would be exacerbated. I think an overlooked thing with difficulty being in mechanics, coupled with the homogeneity of utility/defensives, is that it creates more balance. Because more classes have answers to the difficulty checks of dungeons. Complexity of mechanics helps even out numerical dps disadvantages with mechanical skill. I’d personally rather differentiate myself than others because I can master all aspects of the game, not just do damage.

[@fkkekejeb]

comment on the talent trees not offering diversity: There actually is good diversity for some classes, specifically FDK and ProtPala i play has some good choice you can pick for a different playstyle. DK can go for some active or passive abilities with the same throughput but different damage patterns and playstyles. Protpala can go with more consec help or shorter consec with some other buttons,

[@thesmokajoka]

No blizzcon, but you get a 45 minute stream is crazy.

[@Septemberl4d]

22:40 The issue is a lot of the slightly taxing mechanics from heroic are just one shots in Mythic raid. And this raid tier is more punishing on having even ONE person die let alone 2 in a fight than any other raid with exception on a few bosses in older raids. Just take heroic Queen. Another boss which had a crazy difficult first phase is Sark, sark P1 was a massive heal check along with a lot of one shot mechanics which could either wipe a good chunk of the raid or individual people. But queen the second you loose one or two you feel you need to reset otherwise you are getting no where with phases after it. If you have 2 dps dead on first intermission good luck breaking the shield without getting third pull, i raid with a team which all the dps pull over a million each and we just beat the third pull. But every other group i raid with who have most their dps around 900K with 3 doing over a million we always get the third pull and will always loose one or two in that pull. The boss just seems more tuned, and this goes for every boss past 4th boss, more tuned towards the highest end players, like the 0.1% playerbase. Not that these smaller less skilled groups or raid teams can't get queen done but it is a 100 pull affair even for HEROIC. Not even talking about Mythic raid, just heroic. So if the people making raid are looking to force players out of raiding they are doing an amazing job at it. You guys act like mythic raid is being hurt the most but you need to look at the source of the issue and it is people not enjoying the heroic raid enough to even want to experience an even harder version. Healers burn out getting AOTC, tanks who get slapped hard by Queen fear Mythic raid bosses thinking they will get one shot. Dps.. well dps are just zug zug brain anyway they probably expect bigger numbers in Mythic raid or more one shot mechanics that leave them floor POV and the joke of the raid group. There are just too many one shot mechanics in these bosses, too many "must have everyone alive or else" mechanics in the raids too.

[@TopicxWoW]

Few things that would improve mythic raiding would be to decrease the land/area size of raids and reduce trash. Especially in NP I feel like the trash was out of hand and it took a while to get to bosses. It’s such a waste of time and decreasing these would reduce the amount of time it takes to clear raid and maybe would make it available to people with tighter schedules. We want to go in there and slam bosses, not kill trash..

[@darkcloudreborn]

Probably going to be one from Maldraxxus/Revendreth each considering we got one from Bastion/Ardenweald this rotation.

[@Sepheio]

I would much much rather watch a "hotline" episode where you guys (very briefly) interview a few different people about PUGing than a longer interview with 1 person.

[@t.z.1798]

Looking forward to more resto druid content❤️ as a no meta class there is not much youtube content and talk about the class. I think the class is getting better and better with gear and the last skilltree updates.

[@AbrahamLincoln_]

Every time I try new spec since talent rework, first thing I do is go to spec guide copy talents, paste, done. Never have I looked at them to think hmm take this or this. I think many could relate. "New" talents look great because they're closer to nostalgia wotlk talents etc. but there's equal or even less choice than with previous talents imo .

[@JokerFrog]

The big surprise is another new brutosaur but it has transmog, repair, ah, mail, and a bank and it's going to be the low low price of $200.

[@Kazjra]

MDI is in a truly strange place this time. I have been so much more excited to watch this round as opposed to others for a few reasons: Challengers Peril at 15 sec death timer genuinely makes for a more interesting competition IMO. Not a fan of it in live keys and would not be a fan in a format like TGP but it genuinely felt like teams had to consider riskier plays vs playing it safe more than ever this MDI and I think it lead to some pretty sick moments as well as a little bit more of a capability for another team to catch a throw. With Echo being out of the event this time around I was excited to see what teams were going to make a return and see if any new blood was going to be competitive so there was definitely some excitement from that. It felt like there was a ton of class diversity, especially in the A group which made the group more exciting, I assume as the "meta settles" it will feel less so. That being said the biggest issues I see with MDI this time around was the keystone level. I feel like the point was to "showcase the affixes" but in retrospect the keystones felt lower than they usually are and not having a single dungeon in the 12 range speaks more to the Xalataths Guile being super punishing for the speedrun aspect of MDI versus actually wanting to show case the base affixes. Since MDI is a thing we do every season I almost feel like Blizz should... invest more or at least give more publication or something. One of the biggest complaints I heard from people on the internet was like "the teams are a bunch of randoms" or something to that extent. People don't have a ton of name recognition with some of the newer teams so maybe so like teasers to get posted straight to wowhead leading up to the tournament would give viewers some more interest or get more excited to tune in and root for a team.

[@nitomurray6137]

The health pots are healing a %. On your DK, go to blood, check the value, then go dps and check.

[@shaydwyrm]

I just tried this as bear vs caster form, and in resto vs guardian spec. There was almost no difference in the potion heal. I don't think they are healing a %.

[@nitomurray6137]

@@shaydwyrm May not be factoring in bear mastery so it's under healing

[@varoonb6593]

1:24:00 hard agree tettles, many man of the people points!

[@baseboned]

no one thought of player housing lmao, you guessed "rethinking mythic raids" LMAO

[@geoffreybentley5619]

Growl should try to play dps warrior or monk to feel the real stuggle.

[@Imorteus]

they could introduce "pure" damage and or % based damage to fix healing/damage scaling. but ofcourse thats alot of work so...

[@phaton89]

I work in tech and I have seen weak auras more complex for some fights than most servers run on. I’m also terrified that my work life has somehow now intermingled with my gaming life and I’m coding in the middle of raids because I want a WeakAura that does some small QoL thing for me or my raid.

[@olaf5911]

Just timed all 10s with my 609-12 MW monk this week (started 4 days ago with 570), was pretty fun healing with dogshit gear and random pugs

[@Smurfy259]

Thats crazy, Growls group and Tettles push group BOTH got One-guyed on a Tettles video! lmao!

[@duckwings4927]

Making stuff less complicated seems fun at first, but I think it'll gets boring quick. M+ would turn into heroic+ instead. Maybe they should add that lvl with a seperate reward system and maybe even possible queue able.

[@durmiun]

To Tettles' comment about not being sure if the listeners are interested in an average IO guest episode but being surprised by the number of people in his DMs about it: Are there a large number of people in your DMs saying that they want to be that guest, thinking that they have some unique take and have something to say, and are also looking for some inkling of a shot at this being their flash of fame, or are these people in your DMs expressing interest in that content in general? My intuition leads me to think it's the former and it is just a lot of people "shooting their shot", so to speak. Unfortunately, a lot of people wanting to sell you that content does not predicate a large desire to consume that content.

[@RemoMargiotta]

This dungeon squish they implemented might be the worst thing they've done for M+ pugging. The amount of, not wanting to be too harsh, morons that A - Bought boosted +10's and are now deciding to try play the game on their own B - Have been carried up to their score C - Got lucky and managed to climb score without knowing how dungeons actually work Has drastically increased this season and its just not fun, no matter whether it be 11/12/13 or 14 too many people die to the most random stuff ever, not kicking, not pressing defensive, not cc'ing and i think its because 10's are too easy, 15's are too hard to pug without coms ( for most people ), so everyone is just bunched up in a cesspool and its not even 50/50 whether to find a good group, its more like 20/80. The good thing about when dungeons we're scaled to where the highest keys in world were 30-35 back in DF was that the morons would be sat in their purgatory doing 1-10's, the some what competent people would do 10-15's, the people who knew their class would do 15-20, the people who knew their class and knew how to use their toolkit would do 20-25, and the people who knew everything previous and were dedicated to learning the dungeon intricacies would do 25-30 and where the top end top key pushers would be doing 30-35. People had their place, where their skill put them into and everyone was happy with what they could achieve, but now its just a slot machine, who's gonna brick the key this time.

[@varoonb6593]

1:35:00 preach, I have been saying that sense they launched the "new" talent trees.

[@Sepheio]

You should know the mechanics, but how should they be taught? If a mechanic can be ignored and then suddenly is a one shot, could there be a better design that perhaps forces the players to learn the mechanics at lower keys? They don’t need to make lower keys harder, there could for example be a clear ingame visual when mechanics are failed combined with a dps increase for successfully completing it.

[@baseboned]

Once again tettles with the "my 630 friends think the mythic bosses are too easy"

[@DrunkenBobDole]

I think the real question for Growl’s series, will he do it with an agi staff equipped?

[@lostfluke]

Tempered potion shares cd with delvers. BUT you should be using them!

[@jeffmaxsbestfriend]

I think that there should be an option for players, similar to hard mode, where they could opt to fight unnerfed versions of bosses.

[@bencehodi8119]

When you spend an entire raid day just to set up weakaura for that specific boss. And the next day you still wipe because the weakaura still doesn't work properly for some player, but without weakaura it's impossible to kill the boss.

[@bravepotatoe7513]

They need to pull the band-aid and remove addons but it's probably too late and will never happen

[@rokman5000]

My take on talent trees is they should not have abilities in the trees. There should only be talents that augment your character and abilities. All your abilities should be baseline. The talent trees should allow you to specialize. You don't have to put every ability in your spell book on your action bars.

[@TheQwaser13]

Its Legion remix you guys..... Illidan is the char they used for the tease

[@ethannumber1]

Bring on LBninja9. He pugs multiple healers to ksm every season. He knows the pug world.

[@andrewflick8013]

I predict that we are getting all the specs from sod in retail. So tank rogue, tank shaman, healer mage, and tank warlock... This is totally accurate and not a cope cause I want tank shaman in retail.

[@prithwishroy1984]

What? No more git gud for casuals? Not so much fun when you reach your skill ceiling eh?

[@imustbesweet]

I love that I knew it was IAttack before he even showed growls chat

[@anthonytgameaddict]

My guild spend two days setting up weak auras for brood twister. We dont have 2 dks to tank so it just feels impossible. We are close to just waiting until the raid buff stacks fully then trying. This is just stupid design and such a steep difficulty curve. 10 man raiding would be a god send. We dont have the same people 3 raid nights in a row. We have to run a 35 man roster just to be able to raid mythic 3 nights a week.

[@brave1988brave]

About the gold comments. If there wouldn´t be the RMT then there would not be this kind of insane inflation and then the runs wouldn´t cost 50m.

[@zizthesin]

Mythic raiding is hard for a casual skilled raider to get into. First you need to schedule around 20 ppl. Unlike heroic guilds its hard to maintain the roster through egos. Giant pull counts and high precision pressure do not mesh well i think with the average player. I love mythic raiding but it feels really hard to break into a ce guild or build your own around your own schedule. But for me my days off also dont line up. Its way easier to get 3 or 4 buddies slam some mid-high keys for a couple hours and still prog hard content

[@thesmokajoka]

Special announcement. “Don’t you guys have phones”

[@dewcodered88]

Regarding the Mythic raid commentary. The roster boss is OP AF. Also raids being tuned for the less than 1% of players that play this game is what is killing this game. It doesn't feel good to play 4 different versions of the same raid. You get release mythic, little bit nerfed, little bit more nerfed, and knee capped all in the same tier and that just feels bad. I dont understand why they went back on the "we aren't gonna get in an arms race with the RTWF guilds" when they clearly are.

[@GooseComics]

The problem with Growl mentioning hardcore, is because he's a streamer and he's joining Onlyfangs. Us non-streamers can't join Onlyfangs so hardcore is not as fun.

[@hueycantsurf5533]

Why does no one like pvping I think it’s fun asf hella skill gap I pay ele sham nothing more satisfying then ripping someone’s face off with ascendence

[@jamminkeys]

I really REALLY hope they rework Darkflame Cleft before S2

[@chemchick25]

I started TWW with a remix toon and did not transfer any gold. I made a decent amount herbing/mining at the start of xpac and built a little nest egg. But I’m just hemorrhaging gold now and soon will get to a point where I’ll have to transfer some or swipe the cc. Did repairs always cost this much?

[@scottobrien4599]

Honestly please give me algethar academy, I miss that dungeon

[@croxey2378]

Hello, sorry for bad English, but from a fairly new player to wow, im going to tell you about my experience with the new expansion. I play tank In the war within, the first two weeks of mythic plus i got pretty high rio, but i thought cieling of 10 was a bit of a struggle, but its not fun after that, It isnt fun playing tank if i rely on healing, or the feeling of ”if i die i wipe the group” now, that feeling is alright if ”I” singelhandedly controll my own hp and deffensives to survive a pull or boss mechanic, a heaöers deffensives should be a filler for anyone in the group so if we are gonna make a big pull yeah its nice to get healer deffensives and play around it in that type of way, but it is not okay to have that feeling if its not even in my hands, it’s not a fun feeling knowing like ”okay i have nothing else, cant get my hp back up because of less self healing, so its up to the healer to heal me orelse i die, or i hope the healer heals me now bcs i cant get hp back upp before a tank buster etc” and its too much of that. And the feeling of doing a perfect rotation 2.4m hps pull did everything correct and survived, looking down at the damge meter ”2.8m dps” no one in the group notices what happend or how hard the pull is, dps failed 5 kicks and healer just healed and im there sweating while dps pressing 5 buttons not kicking and doing 10-25m dps, its not fair at all, the difference between a good tank/healer should be the damage they do not if they ”survive” the dungeon, that should be the baseline. So for example. I played 11s today with 1 dps that had 900k dps overall and the second with 1.1m overall and the third had 1.9m. I as tank had 800k overall, we timed the key but those dps was not even good, i belive i should have been over their dps because of how much the difference in skill was between us, it just not fair. Tank damage should be like 80% of dps damage. In that way a bad dps gets checked automaticly by just checking overall damage if they are under tank they are under performing. And healer dps should be around 50% of dps damage imo. To make it fun to play healer and tank i think its important that if its a really bad dps it shows for everyone, same with tank and same with healer, it needs to be visable in the dungeon and or after, clearly, who did good, and who did bad, especially for tank and healer. Now its just ”yeah tank didnt die and healer was ok, its like baseline to be able to complete a dungeon so its expected” i mean its clear with dps ”he did 2.5m overall-good player. But for tank? Tank survived all dungeon-good player? No one knows and it doesnt matter tank or healer damage untill super high keys, for as much responsebility and how much the team relies on tank and healers, they should have a bigger impact on the dungeon than they currently do. So it feels justifingly to play the roll, now it doesnt feel right when a 2800dps knows half the things i know in the dungeon, have it 90% less stressfull in the dungeon and if he dies its just a br away and its like nothing happend. Times 12s with the same person dying 7 times bcs he doesnt know when to press deffensives yet hes 2m overall damage and key is timed, if i had his knowlage and skill i couldnt even tank +8 keys lol… conclusion im doing 13s rn but it doesnt feel good to tank, im not having fun pugging while playing tank, if i pug and play dps its okay cuz i couldnt care about the tank or healer any less, just nice to join a 12 as dps, pressing 3 buttons and doing 2.2m overall or 20m dps in a pull…, instant feedback if you do good rotation and bad on singletarget etc, bad rotation =700k dps, good rotation= 1.4mdps, but while playing tank its no fun bcs a good rotation is 600k single target a bad one is 500k, its a fcking joke no difference untill you really need 100k dps more on a bossfight. I belive they should make tanks get back their self healing and do more damage that would make if more fun for me, and instead of adding ”difficulty” to dungeons being tank busters and poisions, or healing absorb.. or multiply chaincasters in 1 pack… why not add damage checks instead so the reson you brick a key isnt always the healer couldnt heal or we got unlucky with debuffs or mechanics stacked on healer, or tank died. why cant the reason we cant complete a dungeon be dps checks, less kicks and more dps checks would make the dungeons more pug friendly aswell. Especially with the dungeon difficulty scaling in todays keys, and i think the squish makes the game less fun over a longer period of time, like oh we completed a 26 we could probl do a 27 now” and smaller steps make the rio grind longer aswell so its fun to play for a longer period of a time, instead of yeah i can do 11s but 12s is just like walking into a brick wall. In conclousion: tank is not fun unless you have full premade stack, but still, not fun anyway bcs you do garbage dps anyways so it doesnt relly matter if you have 700k overall or 800k overall. Healer balance should be better and they should do more dmg, so if your group can substain themselves you can do damage rotation as healer and it actually have a noticable effect, and if you gonna have these kickheavy meta, all classes should have a kick and one aoe cc if theres gonna be any pug cenario with all the classes and not the meta only to get invite, or take away so you can cc lock packs instead of next stun only half the duration etc. Or you just let us do as big of a pulls we can and not spam every pack with 10 casters so you can time keys depending on how big pulls and how much damage ypu can fit in a dungeon instead of how many interrupts you can fit in… im quitting tank for now untill i see changes, gonna be like everyone else and play dps, sit in que for 2 hours untill i find good people, a tank who suffers but still playing tank, and a healer. Not feeling much drag to play the game at this moment with the class balancing and dungeon tuning. Backstory:( I started playing wow in dragonflight season 1. Leveled up one warlock to 70 and one rouge to 70. I actually enjoyed the progression and leveling, questing was awesome, old areas was the coolest. gearing and quest rewards was sometimes questionable but all in all an okay experience that i enjoyed. I took rouge as a main and started my Journey in mythic plus. After a couple of weeks i got 2k rio, had a friend who helped me with addons aswell so i could do higher keys and understand alot more in the dungeons. After some i hit 2k i had to change jobs etc so i couldnt play anymore, season 2 came and i could only play the last 2 months of the season, i thought dps was too easy and looked at something more complex, like tank, got into tanking last 7 weeks of the expansion and loved it, played blood dk and hit 3k rio and i was hooked. Tried guardian druid aswell hit 3k with that first 3 weeks of playing it, so i knew i could hit 3k with every tank, ended up doing 26/27 keys, got 3k as balance druid aswell in 3 weeks(yes everything with low ilvl, my alts was probl 20ilvls lower than max hero gear). Season 3 came and i couldnt play much bcs of life and same with season 4, peoblem was trying to set up friends etc to have a push group but our curcomstances and raids etc made it never happen… but atleast i hade pugging, i enjoy pugging in season 2 of dragonflight, it felt good, season 3 was less fun, and season 4 i couldnt play bcs of work. Now to the the present. The war within releases. I change job so now im free every evening and on the weekend. I was gonna grind hard, tank. Justwanted to try a tank i’ve never played so i started vdh(bad choise i know))

[@croxey2378]

And it should be more damage over time, both for tank and for the group damage, spiky damage and insta dots etc is not fun, and that is what’s full this season, they made tanking feel worse and healing i would say…

[@croxey2378]

There is less strategies and routes in the dungeons now, which makes it less fun, the talents sucks because now its less of an option, would like the old trees back, and the dungeons is too kick heavy, some of us cant get a swuad to play with, because of work, available time to play, familys, its not as simple as just joining and playing together, some of us needs the pugging and i think most people doing keys +3-10s are the people who pug mostly, get rid of the chaincasts, its not fun and the difficulty it adds is less fun only, and destroying pugging.

[@CyrilFrantzen]

Logged on to my 624 ilvl 2,4k IO AOTC retri pala, tried to queue for keys for 35-40 minutes, got bored and listed my own key.... about half way through the key (+8 mists) a dps dies and blames the healer, the healer leaves and the key is bricked. 1.5 hours wasted and nothing to show for it, and it wasnt even that fun, felt more like a chore. I think I'm done with this season. I wish there was a registry with people who leave live keys as the 1st person to leave, so if someone applied for a key and they've left like 20 keys, I can see it and get someone else in. Gatekeeping and leavers are the biggest issue for me as a pug player. Solo queue M+ would be a much better system.

[@kahlan1amnell]

They have repeatedly provided you the answer for this issue. You add the random people you play with to your friends list when they are nice and/or good players and you ask them to play together. Since I've started doing this a couple of weeks ago I've added 5 people that I'll invite to keys if they have time. This makes it so that I generally play with at least 1 person I played with before in every key. M+ suddenly becomes 10x more fun and a lot more consistent. If you don't want to play with other people for some arcane reason you should just always play your own key. If it depletes you deal with it and if it goes up you try that. That way of playing is kind of like a solo queue. Also, I refuse to believe that people gatekeep 624, 2.4k rio dps players from doing 8's.

[@CyrilFrantzen]

Well, it did happen. And then imagine how bad gatekeeping is if you are anything less. It a horrendous system. I totally agree that it’s a whole lot more fun when you know the people in your group, but that wasn’t an option in this particular situation. “Change the parameters of your situation through behavoir or just learn to deal with it”. Sure. Fair explanation I get it. But, what would really make me happy is if the system was changed to accommodate pugging and to somehow punish toxic behavior.

[@gpm135]

Appreciate your new content Growl about "pugging" but.... pugging now is different than it was in the beginning and pugging dps is different than pugging heals. Either way, I appreciate the effort.

[@_Travey]

I would play MoP classic because I stopped playing when that expansion came out and missed a bunch of expansion after that. Would love to prog through the raids that i missed! And ill def do fresh hardcore again. Was doing it on private servers before it got popular xD xD

[@biokey]

Not growl just monologging for like 20 minutes straight