Random Goth Convergence

This month we speak to KZbin's Random Goth Couple about a range of topics! We consider whether or not goth's love of the 80's has caused it to stagnate, the role of goth aesthetic in popular culture, what the scene is like in Ireland, and even what our favorite Anime's are. We also hear from the bands Cemetery Siren and Allie Frost on All Goth Considered!
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Introduction 00:00
Getting Into Goth 1:32
Goth in Ireland 28:10
Random Goth Couple 44:55
Anime 55:45
The History of Goth Culture 1:01:15
Is Goth Dying 1:19:22
Is Goth just an Aesthetic 1:41:50
All Goth Considered 2:08:50
Post Show Musings 2:22:30

[@samuelpenn2973]

The Randoms are great! Their show, Cemetery Confessions and Angela Benedict are the vaccin for the madness of these times. I look forward to those 3. Great crossover episode. Big hugs to all of you. (Also: Virgin Prunes are feckin' great)

[@samuelpenn2973]

And dear sweet Dani, first of all: you do not need to elaborate or give excuses why there will not be a second show this month. I'll miss you, but I'll survive. Skipping an episode in this case is not failure. It is quality control. Secondly: no show is worth risking your (mental) health over. If you should burn out, we won't have any Cemetery Confessions at all. So please take care of yourself and the ones dear to you. We will hear from you when we hear from you. Hugs.

[@CemeteryConfessions]

@@samuelpenn2973 that's very sweet of you, I appreciate that deeply.

[@samuelpenn2973]

Oops, double negative, corrected. Sorry.

[@Lola-od7hn]

There are promotors like Selective Memory booking many goth-adjacent/goth bands in Dublin at the moment, hence the upsurge in gigs, plus at least four or five club promoteers. Red Party NYC DJs usually come over each year. The festival next weekend in Dublin is called Sacrosanct, a smaller version of the UK event :-)

[@jessiemeowser]

This was a fun one. When Goth worlds collide. Btw I’m pretty sure Vampire Hunter D or Akira was my first exposure to Japanamation in the 80s

[@Protectionarchives]

I would love to direct everyone to Fearing's new album Destroyer! The post-punk to goth pipeline cannot be denied lol

[@-RONNIE]

Thank you all for the good video I enjoyed it as always. I couldn't watch it until I got home I wanted to before I started getting ready to go out tonight. You all have a great weekend.

[@ademcanvaner2567]

I certainly agree that it would be nice to see more bands around like Virgin Prunes. The part just after 1:21:00 is very interesting. Throughout my years in the subculture, I have seen two sides to this argument. Some people believe that goth is a music-based subculture that revolves around specific genres (goth rock, deathrock, post-punk, cold wave, dark wave, ethereal [wave], and the realm of New German Death Art and neo-classical dark wave), and some people believe that it is a genre, in fact, and that those styles of music are its offshoots (subgenres). I am from the latter group, and I’ll explain why I argue that goth is a genre. Let’s take a few examples from a few different subgenres. Say, The Damned’s Phantasmagoria, Suspiria’s Drama, Christian Death’s Only Theatre of Pain, Lebanon Hanover’s Let Them Be Alien, Bauhaus’s In the Flat Fields, and the first couple of albums by Faith and the Muse. If you listen carefully, you’ll hear a pattern in the guitars and the vocals, which is exactly what evolution within a genre of music sounds like. Another example that I notice is that Xmal Deutschland’s songs remind me so much of The Scream by Siouxsie and the Banshees. Going over to the neo-classical dark wave side, Dead Can Dance started out as post-punk, and those elements are still clearly audible on their debut album. Meaning, that “subgenre” came out of post-punk, so it counts as goth in my mind, except for its other two sides that flirt too much with neo-folk and metal. As for cold wave, that has four definitions, and they keep changing throughout time. Cold Wave was the French way of describing the pioneering post-punk and new wave bands, so French bands with those sounds like Opéra De Nuit , Asylum Party, early Die Form, etc. were considered cold wave. There are two definitions in the modern sense. The first one is the slower, colder, and slightly electronic type of post-punk; the examples that I can think of are Lebanon Hanover, Molchat Doma, and Traitrs. The second one is when some goths describe colder-sounding dark wave bands like The Frozen Autumn as cold wave. (Some bands, like Hapax, can sit in between the two groups.) Lastly, over in the industrial genre, cold wave is a style of post-industrial that emerged in America during the ‘90s, and it is known for its metal-style guitars. I don’t know much about it, but the band that I am a fan of from that wave is Acumen Nation. What’s unique about goth is that it, in itself, is an offshoot of two other genres: punk and new wave. And, it’s possible for genres to break off into entire genres of their own, so I accept it as a genre because of its history and the patterns that I’ve described. Either way, whether one sees goth as a genre with its subculture, or a subculture that revolves around those specific genres, they both point in the same direction. Neither will argue that metal, witch house, industrial, pop-punk, grunge, new wave, or anything like that is goth. Connor’s point about acceptance is, also, interesting because goths don’t have to accept something that is forcefully insinuated into the genre and subculture when it has no roots in it. For example, Type O Negative. Yes, some goths like them, but they have no roots in the genre. I heard that Lycia was of influence, but their roots are mostly in metal. They started out cross-over thrash metal, then they stepped into the territory of doom metal and gothic metal. Goths don’t have to accept them if they don’t want to. I often feel similarly about this wave of “dark synth” bands, or whatever they’re calling it. I do like Boy Harsher and Minuit Machine, but I will never call them goth. I especially will never call bands like Patriarchy or Motionless in White goth, even if they quote some goth influences. Only because a goth band is of influence, doesn’t mean that that influence is heard in the musician’s work. Actually, Azy and I have discussed in the past how irksome it is when some metal bands describe their music as “deathrock”; there was a whole episode on that. What Connor is describing bout the acceptance of different styles of metal within the metal scene is due to those genres sticking to the root of the genre and having evolved from it, not due to being pushed upon metalheads, unlike what’s been happening to goths over the years. And, even over there metalheads do get hesitant; they’re usually fine with black, death, thrash, groove, folk, Viking, power, heavy, progressive, doom, and sludge metal, but not as much with nu, glam, symphonic, gothic, alternative, and industrial metal, or the “core” genres (like metalcore). It’s similar to how some rivetheads are adamant about their EBM, electro-industrial, noise, industrial rock, and ambient, but they hesitate when it comes to aggrotech. I can remember one specific rivethead here on KZbin who finds it strange that aggrotech is even considered industrial. Also, some rivetheads refuse to aknowledge Marilyn Manson and Nine Inch Nails regardless of their obvious sound. Every subculture has some level of favouritism like this, much like gatekeeping. Goth is no exception, and sometimes it’s necessary. Thanks a lot for this fun episode! I really enjoyed it! Cheers! xoxoxo

[@ThreadBomb]

The issue is that "goth" music doesn't come from one source. Metal can all be traced to one band (Black Sabbath) but the goth founders are all very different from each other. Siouxsie doesn't sound like Cure doesn't sound like Sisters, etc, etc. And many bands that were core to the formation of the scene in the early days are rejected now, for not fitting criteria that didn't exist at the time. (Also, Marilyn Manson is hard rock, and honestly closer to goth (obvious influence of Christian Death and Sisters of Mercy) than industrial.)

[@ademcanvaner2567]

​@@ThreadBombActually, the founders are very closely connected. Listen to their debut albums and you'll hear the similarities there because that was before they branched out into other directions. And, yes, that's what I said: Goth comes from punk and new wave. But, I do agree with your second sentence. That's because dark wave and ethereal didn't exist in the early days. The new wave of bands like The Normal and Depeche Mode was, basically, the "dark wave" of the time. Classifications can change as time goes on as people become more informed. Like I always say, goth in itself was in its baby-bat days, so it's logical that not many understood it due to how new it was back then. Regarding Manson, the first five albums were not hard rock. Those were purely industrial rock, a fusion of Nine Inch Nails, late-'eighties Ministry, and some Skinny Puppy. I wouldn't confidently talk about Marilyn Manson to a group of rivetheads, but the sound is there on those records. Hard rock is more like Kiss, for example, and bands on that wavelength, including glam metal. Even Scorpions bridge between heavy metal and hard rock (for the most part).

[@thepitsofdarkness]

Quick Comment to drop a name: Dark Shadows. Watched it as a kid when it was still new to TV. It would take several decades for me to complete my journey and find my place. Love you all. Thanks Dani.

[@dianegorton4956]

Love you both! I am a new subscriber and so curious how you liked Salem ma? I live near there.

[@Protectionarchives]

I am so grateful for the work that you do and the academic, thorough attention you give to the subculture and in turn share with us! Please prioritize your health; your audience will be here whenever your capacity grows to include the podcast.

[@CemeteryConfessions]

🖤🖤🖤🪦

[@isaiahrodriquezgothboy]

I love Lynn and Conner I am a knew Goth and They Inspire me to be a Goth and be me and not caring what other people think!!!!!🖤🖤🖤🖤🖤🖤🖤

[@amandapatrice157]

About the Converse, Doc Martens and nose rings: those things existed and were worn by people way before alternative fashion was even a thing. “Alternative” people adopted those as part of their uniforms. Chuck Taylors were worn as a basketball shoe and were worn on urban environments. Doc Martens aren’t exclusively a punk or alternative shoe. They’re literally work boots. Nose rings have been a thing in a variety of cultures for centuries. Remember that goth, alt, punk or whatever subcultural fashions are all just an amalgamation of various aesthetics and clothing items which existed and were worn before any of those subcultures existed. So you can’t have ire at people for wearing Docs, Converse or nose rings or WHATEVER because anyone can wear those, alternative or not. Just like vampires are not a goth thing. Neither are chokers, leather, etc.

[@CemeteryConfessions]

We're talking about this exact subject next episode 😊

[@sgr1888]

🖤🥲back when they had their 30k celebration i recommended them to you! So so happy to be able to bring us all together.

[@violetchristophe]

Thanks for the love and care put into the video. You've got a good point that you'd do well to turn some of that love and care towards yourself. Take your time, we'll all be here when you get back. I'm not sure about all the logistics of the show, but I wonder if you could lean on Trea or other friends to generate content ideas and make the connections for interviews? Though you may feel like that could be too much of a bother to them, or deviate from your vision, which would be understandable too. It was nice to see the collaboration of goth KZbinrs. Both of your channels are enjoyable to listen while at work. I was pleasantly surprised when Trea mentioned Witch Hunter Robin. It was one of my favourite shows in High School. I preferred it's serious and slow pace, compared to the shonen stuff my peers enjoyed. I wonder if you might do a reverse interview sometime, where an academic asks you all questions and have a discussion that way? I'm not sure how difficult it might be to track down someone working on a study, thesis, or other kind of paper, but it seems plausible that there's folks out there. My partner was briefly in contact one woman who interviewed us, to get our take on goth fashion, and inclusivity.

[@gentGTR]

🖤 Take care of yourself and thank you for doing what you do. I hope you can meet your own needs and keep the show alive. 🦇

[@jessiemeowser]

I remember liking Blood: The Last Vampire… the 2000 cartoon version if I recall. I don’t keep up with animae but back in the 80s I watched some and joined the Japanamation club in college in the mid-90s. But I quit pretty fast.

[@ThreadBomb]

Honestly, I think Elfen Lied is overrated. For that kind of extremity in anime, stuff like When They Cry and Gantz is better. For cool dark anime I'd recommend Boogiepop Phantom, Berserk, Gunslinger Girl, and Wolf's Rain. Dusk Maiden Of Amnesia and Hellsing are also good. Probably the most goth anime I've watched is Lunar Legend Tsukihime, not the greatest show but lots of atmosphere and great music.

[@NoirL.A.]

love the vids. let me know if you are currently seeking new interviewees.

[@Thomas_of_the_forest]

This is so fun! Lynn and Conor are two of my closest friends, and it has been amazing to see the growth of their channel and for them to get opportunities like this come up!

[@digitalmouse3314]

What I find funny is Within Temptation is Gothic Metal they classifiy themselves as goth so do magazines but many goths deny is but the lyrics, the astheatic and even tones are very gothic. Like if it uses musical style of 1700-1900s, but like you guys said it's like being into spooky things Halloween. I also agree with it being a vibe but like connor I love metal still but I also like my goth music or Alternative music whatever pop, rock, metal.

[@MaleTears]

probably the best episode in years

[@thepitsofdarkness]

Future topic idea: racism in Goth and our music. Sonsombre in particular is a recent example of a band that quickly fell out of favor and I don't know if the reasons were ever properly discussed. I live in KY surrounded by confederate flags that slap me in the face every day.

[@CemeteryConfessions]

If you check out our episode "Goth Praxis" we covered a lot of those topics specific to music. We've talked about racism extensively in the past as well but we call out some musicians and youtuber in that one specifically.

[@thepitsofdarkness]

@@CemeteryConfessions 🖤🥀 Thank you. And take care of yourself. We love you.