The Hobbit is Not Very Good: An Unexpected Analysis - Part 1: An Unexpected Journey

[@davwalsr]

As a note: the contract that Bilbo has to sign is essentially a contract of employment; it is saying that Bilbo is entitled to payment as a result of a successful completion of the mission.

[@LadyDoomsinger]

If nothing else, it serves as a written agreement between the two parties, ensuring that everyone is on the same page and understands both their part of the job and payment to be expected. It avoids potential misunderstandings later, or someone claiming they've been paid less than they deserve for their work.

[@shaunsocha421]

​@@LadyDoomsinger sooooo, a contract of employment? 😅

[@LadyDoomsinger]

@@shaunsocha421 You, sir, are a mind reader!

[@thinkwithurdipstick]

Precisely, there doesn’t always need to be some governmental or legal body to enforce a contract, especially in a pre modern society such as the setting of LotR. A contract is simply physical evidence of an agreement between two bodies, makes sure things stay fair

[@danguillou713]

It's both a sign that the dwarves are a legalistic culture wherein written contracts is the done thing. And a humorous anachronism of the kind that Tolkien often includes when Bilbo is narrating. Or when he's translating Bilbo to english or something.

[@sixthugger]

I had always thought that the Hobbits "racial bonus" is to be magically uninteresting. If someone were to walk into a room, the Hobbit will the last person noticed despite not trying to hide. This would be an very useful attribute for a burglar. This kind of explains the goblins just leaving him behind, Gollum not seeing Bilbo next to the fallen goblin, Gandalf not noticing Bilbo missing until the dwarves were safe, and finally Bilbo running towards the orcs to save Thorin at the end.

[@easternlights3155]

I thought this was canon

[@josiahstreetman8806]

Me too. And that's why the one ring makes them invisible. The one ring isn't actually a ring of invisibility, it heightens what you already are. An elf would become even more supernaturally quick, A dwarf would be even more hardy, tanking impossible blows, Sauron or Gandalf, or any other of the powerful beings become godly powerful. Because the hobbits' bonus is natural stealth, it makes them invisible. And because that's the least dangerous option, that's why Frodo had to take the ring.

[@nicnicvis]

@@josiahstreetman8806 The one ring makes anyone who isn't sufficiently powerful invisible. Isildur, a Man, would become invisible when he wore it as well. Not just hobbits.

[@JPG.01]

In the lord of the rings book, hobbits are described as smaller than even dwarves and more capable of walking silently than even elves. They are naturally inconspicuous. One could call that magically uninteresting.

[@soronume7826]

Canonically they are in the books. BUT, that has not been set up in the movies, so it being a thing in the books, mostly explained in the prologue 'about hobbits', does not help this scene much. It's not like they were short on time in this movie, they could have set it up.

[@Mightydoggo]

My personal headcanon is that "Rings of Power" was just a fever dream from one of the Orks at Minas Tirith, before he got flatened by a giant stone.

[@BadAtGaming3484]

That's how I felt about this whole trilogy, tripping on acid certainly didn't help.

[@TheRuddster95]

Fabulous 🙏🏼

[@JustAnArrogantAlien]

And after the utter cruelty and evil of the “Harfoots” flashed before his eyes, that Orc gained a new respect for the comparative peace, civility and camaraderie of Mordor.

[@yougood809]

@@JustAnArrogantAlienAnd realized thereafter that they must go north to besiege harfoot settlements. Easier a task to manage and nobler a task to sacrifice for.

[@VeryPeeved]

Wow. That's pretty cruel and unusual. His last moments before death was misery and pain.

[@dirtyjack6300]

One thing I really hated about these movies is the amount of times the company equips themselves in various cool armor, only to immediately discard them for the actual fight.

[@arensarzuelo4]

They were under leveled or their main stat doesn't match the gear they rolled for.

[@Vaguer_Weevil]

Since they're dwarves they naturally have a lower carry rate, it's easier to unequip the armour for difficult fights otherwise they'll be fat rolling during boss fights

[@RevanMartinez]

@@Vaguer_Weevil fat rolling 🤣😅 Thorin had a Strength and Vigor build

[@simonesalvatore9345]

The funniest thing about the “guarding the ponies” nonsense is that it’s entirely a fault of the screenwriters. In the book, the ponies were never stolen. The dwarves saw a campfire in the distance (not knowing it to be the trolls) and sent Bilbo to investigate on the off chance they might have food and booze they were willing to share. Meaning that the filmmakers actively went out of their to make the sense more nonsensical.

[@user-sr5vu5lz8k]

Lukewarm defence of the Elrond offering to let Bilbo stay scene: the reason this scene is not only different but necessary is that Bilbo’s fundamental arc is learning to appreciate the adventure and bonding with the Dwarves. Gandalf initially attempts to lure Bilbo on the basis that he was a young boy who wandered the woods looking for signs of ELVES. Elrond’s offer is exactly what Bilbo has always wanted, to get out of the Shire and meet the Elves but without the danger and potential death awaiting him at the mountain. Bilbo’s choosing to carry on is him turning his back on his original desire because he has bonded with dwarves and respects their quest as something honourable that he would sacrifice his own wants. Each chance to turn back offers him something different and each choice to carry on reaffirms the direction of his arc.

[@henrikaugustsson4041]

I only saw it as a “and he did come to stay there, many years later, in LotR..”

[@troo_6656]

@@henrikaugustsson4041 That could be viewed as poetic ending. Residing in Imladris but not because he wouldn't want to go on, but because he couldn't anymore.

[@cmcapps1963]

​@@troo_6656I agree! My favorite moment in the book Council scene is Bilbo offering to take the ring and how the strong and wise are impressed. I wish that made it into the extended version.

[@LordSluggo]

The problem with Thorin finally gaining respect for Bilbo after the pine tree incident is a problem because that's what the whole Mirkwood spider ordeal is supposed to be

[@WreckItRolfe]

That's the problem with it being 3 films and adding arcs

[@lukeroberson2115]

The funny thing is they could have had the pine tree scene be where he gets respect from the others, but Thorin is still hard on him. Meanwhile the spider scene could be when Thorin warms up to Bilbo.

[@alejandrojuarez5640]

Also that Bilbo didn't have much of a character arc after that. He learned to be more courageous in the first movie. Now what's he supposed to do in the next two?

[@f8-ucmdr358]

it's an oak tree...an acorn seed.

[@beyondthecamera333]

I disagree strongly with this, and feel it is a mischaracterization of Bilbo. In the novel, yeah it's fairly cool that Bilbo defeats the spiders. But Thorin doesn't really give a fuck about that, nor do the rest of the dwarves. They barely process that Bilbo has rescued them, before getting captured by the elves. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly, Thorin doesn't even know BIlbo saved them, as Bilbo was invisible. I might be confusing this with the Rankin Bass film however, but still supports my point, as the arc works there without the spider stuff. The saving from the dungeon is in fact where Thorin begins to respect Bilbo. This being because Thorin's arc with Bilbo isn't him realising "huh, I guess Bilbo can fight. He's just like us." No, that's not it at all. Bilbo is not a fighter, he's a Rogue in Dnd terms. Him slipping in and out undetected makes Thorin realise that maybe Bilbo isn't like them, but that's okay. There's room in the group for someone with a different skillset. That's what's so beautiful about the book. Thorin doesn't really understand nor respect Bilbo, but comes to eventually. If Bilbo was just good at fighting like in the movie, it would ruins a very important theme from the book.

[@Tsicky]

The thing about the inconsistent writing is that Peter jackson was writing the script on set. I put the blame on the studios rushing the heck out of the hobbit and I imagine this is the best Jackson could’ve done in the situation.

[@hugotheimpecileone]

Thats largely why Lotr was so good since the whole thing took like 8 years to plan and edit and film it all.

[@catcherinthesky]

Fyi - the script was written by Fran Walsh, Philippa Boyens - and Peter Jackson.

[@KleinKore]

Yes and you can watch as long as it takes it just crumbles that way into nothing. I am not used to critizise films but when it comes to video game sequences i detect them and when at last it comes to the third film I have problems watching it to the end. It is just as everyone on the set really did not know what they did in the end. And no one was watching what they did. Like someone who did not sleep for days. What a pity

[@oldschoolben1471]

The studios relied far too heavily on the success of the LotR trilogy, a film series not made under the same constraints. The Hobbit is yet another example of a beloved story soiled by studio meddling. Peter Jackson is a professional and saw that the project made it to completion but you can tell his heart wasn't in it like the original trilogy, which had proper planning and at the very least a script before filming began. The Hobbit feels like a cash grab because it is. I still love the story. I'm hoping some day we get a better adaptation. The animated Hobbit is still leagues better than all three films combined and I'll stand by that.

[@TheStonedZone]

There is an actual answer to all of this. Peter Jackson has stated in interviews that the only reason he did the trilogy is that they were going to do prequels to his Lord of the Rings trilogy and did not trust the Hobbit movies with other directors. And the studio was rushing into production on it already. Maybe he should have.

[@dannylopez5976]

Literally every word out of Ori just makes Thorin's line about taking these Dwarves over an army funnier and funnier.

[@BennysGamingAttic]

Gandalf is worried about the dragon joining Mordor... Fuck that, if I was the big baddie, I would recruit the living mountains to my side.

[@Avatar1977]

If you are this critical of Frodo being shoehorned into the story I can't wait to see your take on Legolas later on :D

[@callisto8413]

Oh god...I had almost been able to forget that....🤔

[@WoobertAIO]

I mean, he *is* the son of Thranduil, so it's kinda justifiable to have him around this time to see how the spawn of such a massive asshole came to be so uncharacteristically open minded so quickly in The Lord of the Rings.

[@tsemayekekema2918]

I had thought Legolas seemed very much more justified than Frodo, considering the dwarves get to the kingdom of his own father where Legolas should ideally be.

[@zeroattentiongaming820]

@@tsemayekekema2918 I don't think Legolas having a cameo in Mirkwood was a bad idea, but what these movies actually did with him was

[@tsemayekekema2918]

@@zeroattentiongaming820 yh, I think it was more of a Tauriel problem than a Legolas problem (and then that scene of Legolas walking in the air😂}

[@Kernwadi]

Out of the three movies, the first one is probably my favourite, mainly because it feels kinda smaller scale and personal at many moments.

[@Kernwadi]

Doesn't mean that any of them are particularly good, but this one is the best.

[@hachikuji_mayoi]

Well it's also the most faithful to the book and it's tone. I actually enjoy this one and if the rest of the movies were as good as the first, I feel like this series could have been as good as the lotr adaptation (I have a lot of issues with those too)

[@ageoflove1980]

Yes the first one is closest to the book and much more a magical children's tale rather than a (pseudo) high fantasy epic.

[@blahblahgdp]

I also liked the first one, it felt really nice to chill with. Honestly when I found out there were 2 more movies, I thought i was getting trolled at first

[@GeraltofRivia22]

Yeah, the first one is the only one that somewhat maintains the spirit of the book.

[@moonkiitty]

One small thing I found disappointing in this movie is that none of the dwarves have colored cloaks. They were color-coded in the book. :( That was one more thing that made Thorin special, if I recall. He didn't have a color partner.

[@brady6736]

If I recall correctly, it was a light blue hood that he wore!

[@griflet1]

if you pay close attention, you'll see that the dwarf costumes actually match those colors mentioned in the book.

[@Minicheche250]

should have been more vibrant@@griflet1

[@andrewmeyer3599]

I do believe he had either a blue hood or a purple one. Can't remember which

[@anthonyt1t5]

That would help alot to distinguish between the dwarves lol

[@ARC--5973]

I would like to point out a very small detail that I liked about these films that I picked up on my most recent viewing of them. Gloin, who we know to be Gimli's father, uses an axe that is identical to one of the axes his son uses in LOTR. There is no dialogue about this, and it's never drawn any attention to by the films, but it's a detail that I think at least at some level shows that the people making these films genuinely were trying.

[@user-jt1js5mr3f]

100% they were trying, in the midst of studio demands and a lack of prep.

[@user-jt1js5mr3f]

@@limlaith if I recall he had a helmet nearly identical too at one point

[@luckyspurs]

The prologue to the Lord of the Rings wasn't trying to be epic. It was trying to be mysterious and engaging. And it was absolutely masterful.

[@OneDapperFrog]

It also just so happened to be epic.

[@johngoudelock3740]

Well the battle of the 5 armies is epic but short only taking a chaper or 2

[@harveywallbanger3123]

The Hobbit was written as a children's book, along the same vein of Tolkien's earlier work (which he had invented largely to amuse his own children at bedtime). It is much simpler than the LotR series and VASTLY simpler than the addenda (Silmarilion, etc). Funny characters with funny names and funny dialog, highly simplified narratives, a much more "classic" quest without larger complications, etc. The movie adequately represented this with lots of really stupid and goofy CGI, fit to entertain 7-12 year olds. No, most of the people who enjoyed LotR were not thrilled with The Hobbit. It was going from prime rib to a Happy Meal. Even Jackson admitted it.

[@williamcase426]

@@harveywallbanger3123 I love the mcrib tho

[@Jarl_Thidrandi]

@@harveywallbanger3123 That's not the real issue though. It's not that the substance was intended for a younger audience, it's that they felt the need to make a 10 hour trilogy out of a book that was half the length of Fellowship alone.

[@First-name.Last-name]

i love how the one common denominator in all these hobbit reviews is how great of a choice martin freeman is. if i starred in a movie series that was generally disliked but everyone unanimously agreed i was one of if not the best parts of it i would get such a god complex i wouldn't know how to act

[@donaldjgumpofficial5754]

I remember Critical Drinker not liking Martin Freeman in his Hobbit video.

[@Sleepy-qr9il]

@@donaldjgumpofficial5754 Common Critical Drinker L

[@curtthegamer934]

The goblins of the Misty Mountains technically are a different race of goblins from the goblins encountered in Moria in LOTR. According to Tolkien, "orc" and "goblin" are synonyms. They are used interchangably. So we see multiple races of orcs in the books/films. There are the Moria orcs, and the Misty Mountain orcs, the Dol Guldur orcs, and the Gundabad orcs, all of which are distinct from each other. I do not blame you for misunderstanding this one, because it is a common mistake made by even the most hardcore fans of Tolkien's works (and the movies especially make it confusing by only using the term "goblin" when referring to Moria and Misty Mountain orcs). But that's the explanation. There actually are many different species of orcs, and thays why they have different lifestyles.

[@flydye45]

(Puts on Pedant Hat) ACKSHUALLY... IIRC, Bilbo was sneaking through a tunnel he thought 'too small for goblins' (which puts Goblins at larger than Hobbits). Tolkien mentions that Bilbo was very wrong and that even orcs of somewhere, which one presumes were larger than goblins, could have run through the tunnel on their knees or some such. (I don't have the book handy but am 98% certain of this)

[@curtthegamer934]

@@flydye45 Tolkien says in the prologue to The Hobbit that Orcs and Goblins are synonyms. By "the Orcs of the mountains" explanation in Chapter 5, I take this as not meaning that large Goblins are called Orcs, but rather that large Goblins/Orcs are the Orcs of the mountains. Similar with Gandalf's comment in Chapter 7 about encountering "Goblins, Hobgoblins, and Orcs of the worst kind." You could interpret this one of two ways: One being that he's differentiating Orcs from Goblins and Hobgoblins, or the other being that he's differentiating Orcs of the worst kind from the two other types of Orcs that he mentions. Since Tolkien explicitly says that Orcs and Goblins are the same in the prologue, the latter interpretation is the correct one.

[@flydye45]

@@curtthegamer934 As I don't recall the prologue, I really can't dispute it except to say that it seemed that Orcs meant in Chap 5, was a different beast by some discernable metric, at least size. But certainly arguable. But Gandalf is precise. Perhaps he is speaking of O, G and H as tribes as per 'Masai, Hutus and Tutsi' or perhaps, Gandalf genuinely thinks of them as 'lions and tigers and bears'. (Of course Tolkien is correct, but even Gandalf could nod on occasion)

[@curtthegamer934]

@@flydye45 Also, in The Hobbit, Gandalf refers to Azog as "Azog the Goblin." But in the appendices to LOTR, Tolkien calls Azog an Orc.

[@flydye45]

@@curtthegamer934 I'm sold

[@noahvadertheberserkerpacki6604]

Since Thror was carrying a ring of power, he was addled with the effects of gold sickness. He was not corrupted into a wraith because Aule the smith made dwarves resistant to evil inherently. This is probably why the bloodline was hinted to be prone to corruption. Although this doesn't explain Thorin later. Nor is it firmly established. Just an outside interesting lore tidbit.

[@noahvadertheberserkerpacki6604]

Also if this does get read, if you wish, please make an analysis on the original series, we get so many negative long form essays. A long form positive one on the original LOTR trilogy would be such a refresher. And we all know that the original LOTR trilogy deserves it.

[@sethkeown5965]

​@@noahvadertheberserkerpacki6604 here here. I do love learning from trash movies and shows, but appreciation for the beautiful is juat as, if not, more valuable.

[@TheLordboki]

Was wondering about the dwarven rings. What happened to the rings anyway?

[@noahvadertheberserkerpacki6604]

@@TheLordboki Many were destroyed by dragon fire, some were reclaimed by Sauron.

[@noahvadertheberserkerpacki6604]

@@TheLordboki Gandalf has the elven ring of fire, (No I am not joking.) Elrond has the ring of air, and Galadriel has water. I think. They're not corrupted by the three elven rings because those rings were not corrupted by Sauron.

[@EatTheMarxists]

Watching this again because it’s just fun. Someone’s probably already mentioned this, but Dwarves are kinda cursed by their love of gold. Lady Galadriel’s blessing to Gimli, son of Gloin, was that his hands will overflow with gold but that gold will never control his mind and heart.

[@andrewmeyer3599]

Just gonna say: Orcs *could* walk in the Sunlight and did multiple times in the LOTR novels. The BIG difference though? Orcs were terrified of the Sun, it made them physically uncomfortable, and I don't think their eyes were well adjusted to brightness so they also didn't perform very well. This is why Sauron began using Orodruin (Mount Doom) to spew forth smoke, so *his* army (which was still primarily just Orcs and not many Uruk-Hai) could still do as was needed, hence why the siege of Minas Tirith was far longer in the books: The Orcs marched out and encamped, waiting for more smoke to blot out the sky and make the siege a lot easier on themselves

[@vaiyt]

It's also good to remember that back when morgoth invented orcs and trolls the sun didn't exist yet 😅

[@DIEGhostfish]

There are also the original Black Uruks too, from Mordor and similarly massive though perhaps less daylight adjusted than Uruk-hai. But yeah prior to mass production of Uruk-hai only the most mighty and disciplined of Orcs could bear the sun without needing threats and violence to motivate them.

[@DIEGhostfish]

Black Uruks are also basically not a thing in the Movies though.

[@kazekamiha]

"The Hobbit is Not Very Good" Compared to Rings of Power it's a masterpiece.

[@MrRenanHappy]

No, Rings of Power is shit and the The Hobbit movie is shit. As a matter of fact, with how simple and straight forward this story is and how much simpler of an adaptation is, considering they had all the rights necessary to it, The Hobbit is a more baffling fuck up, while Rings of Power is an expected fuck up. The Hobbit is still more enjoyable because the first movie of The Hobbit movie with Bilbo's scenes is still great.

[@hashkangaroo]

Just you watch. People are going to hate ROP so much the Hobbit movies will get a boost like the Star Wars Prequels.

[@thesupreme8062]

​@@hashkangarooprequels are much bettwr then the hobbit

[@starwarsfan729]

@@thesupreme8062 I think they are on the same level. I think hobbit started better, but the prequels ended better. And the middle is about the same for both.

[@thesupreme8062]

@@starwarsfan729 good take

[@Grymbaldknight]

Regarding Ori, it's shown in The Lord of the Rings that he was the dwarven scribe who followed Balin to retake Moria. He also chronicled much of the quest to retake Erebor. It's possible that, in the absence of any other defining character traits, Ori was stamped as the "nerd" of the group, complete with neckbeard and probable autism.

[@CodenameBolts]

He's also the youngest out of Ori Dori and Nori as well as all 13 Dwarves which is why his older brother Dori takes care of him

[@jeffreyhejny]

You missed something, during the scene with the trolls, Thorin tells Gandalf that Bilbo didn't help them with the trolls, despite him being the first of the dwarves to realize that Bilbo is stalling for time.

[@chamorvenigo]

As I have commented before, these are a bunch of suicidal drawfs on a mission with no hope of success or living. They have this "whatever" relationship with Superman Gandalf that goes like this: 1. The council had decided not to kill the dragon. Here's 13 of us YOLOs. 2. We are desperate for any kind of help. Wow, a great wizard (there were a lot of stories of these supermen) took interest into YOLO trip. 3. The wizard insisted on hiring a professional buglar. Whatever, YOLO. 4. The burglar is not even a proper buglar. Well, whatever, at least his pantry is proper. 5. The burglar can't even fight? At least we have superman here. Then again, superman didn't fight the trolls either. 6. The hobbit really do have magical sneaking skills. He has proven himself. …Gandalf leaves the party. 7. Hmmm, should we take a longer and safer path or go thru Mirkwood? Whatever, we are still going to die at the destination. Why the need to postpone our death?

[@koreancowboy42]

@@chamorvenigo I mean... if you don't like it. Don't watch it lol simple as thst

[@benrex7775]

@@koreancowboy42 I prefer having good movies over just telling everybody that they should stop complaining and not watching them.

[@shaunsocha421]

​@@chamorvenigo the typo of "drawfs" is actually kinda accurate tbh Made me giggle tho 💛

[@sixscratch8852]

@@chamorvenigo It was either going across a mountain range filled with goblins without Gandalf, going with Gandalf to Sauron’s home, or going through a place that requires you to ration.

[@callumdrage5889]

OMG you’re right about the Unexpected Party scene. If they removed the opening prologue, it really would have been an unexpected party for the audience as well! I can’t believe they didn’t think of that!

[@yig_501]

its a dang shame

[@DoddyIshamel]

Its wild that Elrond is so casual about the sword his great grandfather fought Balrogs with that had been lost 7000 years ago in lands now under the sea turning up at his door.

[@KopKing11]

It literally took me reading this comment to remember that the sword was Turgons, why was he so casual about it?

[@danielnowacki2020]

This also could have been a great moment between him and Thorin. Elrond could hesitate because of how important the sword is but ultimately give it back to Thorin, to bring him luck on his quest and as a peace offering, slowly improving Thorin's opinion on elves

[@christophermedlin5889]

@@danielnowacki2020 Glamdring was Turgon's sword not Orcrist

[@esindirik4447]

He's been alive forever. There are few things that can surprise him. He is a god damn elf, not a fantasy fiction fanboy.

[@DoddyIshamel]

@esindirik4447 why would that matter? What a weird take... You think an ancient heirloom of his family lost millenia ago in lands now under the sea turn up every few centuries or something?

[@Tar-Elenion]

Just wanted to note that in the book, the Great Goblin (who is not some fat mutant with nutsacks hanging from his chin) does not sing. The 'Down to goblin town' song is sung by the goblins who take Bilbo and the Dwaves prisoner in the cave (which the goblins call the Front Porch, they dont fall down some hole), as they are being marched to the Great Goblin.

[@rosiehawtrey]

Ah yes, good old Bollockbeard IVth 😂

[@Annathroy]

NutsackBeard the almighty

[@jeremymott]

Chinstickle the Mighty

[@jakzine540]

I've always called him SCROTUM BEARD.

[@suenzhong7891]

What pisses me off the most about the Hobbit films is they could have been great if the studios execs didn't interfere.

[@silverscorpio24]

"Blunt the Knives" and "The Misty Mountains Cold" were the best things to come out of these movies.

[@huntclanhunt9697]

"The last goodbye" was pretty good too

[@jamesdeanseternaldreams2232]

Best things not best songs... If you did mean best things then I want to point out the riddles scene...

[@taddad2641]

@@jamesdeanseternaldreams2232 the smaug interactions were good too. though the silly chase scene was too much for my taste.

[@jamesdeanseternaldreams2232]

@@taddad2641 true, but smaug was kinda ruined for me by the whole covered in gold thing and the attack on lake town, I would much prefer it if he decided to attack laketown after a battle of wits with thorin, least then it would be to far of a strech out of charachter

[@MimeswithRhymes]

Honestly a 40lb oak log would probably absorb blows from a mace far better than any run-of-the-mill wooden shield.

[@franziskabeyer3188]

Hello, German person here. Burg does not mean house. Haus means house. Burg is the German word for a defence castle built during medieval times, so by far as sophisticated as Versailles and such, but more rough and able to withstand attacks. Mostly built on a hill to oversee the surrounding area.

[@awsome182]

As a German I appreciate your comment 😊

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

Not just castles but also fortified towns, hence Bürger. The English equvilient is burgh (from which we get Burgher and burgess, aswell as borough)

[@vaiyt]

The reason we associate burg with city now is because many towns ended up being named after nearby forts

[@jasonhenry8067]

I like that you mentioned the unreliable narrator aspect of the movie because it’s also touched on in-fiction that the account of the hobbit may not be entirely accurate so seeing that was a good acknowledgment

[@jonathankool1997]

This is a fantastic point. Even more so when its obvious that Tolkien even used that to his advantage with trying to say more or less that his stories are written in-universe by people. Helps prop up the lore and provide excuses for any errors in law (even though he was very particular on that!) And also provide reasoning for embelishment or exaggeration. Its super awesome actually and also lends to them feeling real! Just like we might judge Herodotus Histories for his biases and exaggeration we do the same with these books/films to a minor extent. Such a cool story telling device!

[@TheStonedZone]

I definitely think that helped to ease a bit of my annoyance with the movie (I still don't like it and hold firm that I have a lot of criticism to it). The unreliable narrator is a mechanic that really has to be dealt with very tactfully or it just comes off as bad and nonsensical. But when done right, really can be fantastic. I think it was done well enough with The Hobbit, but not good in a proper sense. It's similar with a movie like 300. With 300, the whole movie is a leader hyping his troops up for battle with a tale of "heroes" standing up to "evil monsters". And I think that was also done well enough, but also not tactfully done and so the movie came off as silly and stupid. The Hobbit definitely was more tactful though.

[@TheBelieveit1]

One thing that no one seems to show real appreciation for in the LotR trilogy is that while Aragorn, who is depicted as being the hero most and a bad ass, was in fact shown to not have ridiculous plot armor. In many of the fights I'm all three films we see him struggle. Yes, he is a great warrior but he was often backed until a corner. Watch the Fellowship, specifically in the Amon Hen sequence against the uruks. He's pretty much running away for most of the start while getting some kills until Legolas and Gimli show up. And there's even a bit where he's being choked by a random lowly uruk, struggling to get it off him until legolas saves him. This happens a lot in the films. Compare that to this trilogy where the obvious Aragorn replacement, Thorin, never struggles in these fights unless it's a boss fight and the plot demands it. Never once in just a fight against mobs is he (or any of the dwarves) ever shown to have difficulties outside a slap stick moment. This is important because while gimli and legolas were more comedic side kicks who seemed to struggle a bit less, having your hero character have to actually try this way gives the audience a sense of tension. It makes you forget that it's a movie for a moment and invites the idea that the character might die which makes you root for them more. When the only time that the protag struggles is during the boss fight, it only highlights that this is a movie because it's so predictable. Aragorn losing his footing and only barely liking the random uruk attacking him makes the stakes higher than Thorin cleaving at freaking trolls like it's a stage show and not breaking a sweat lowers the stakes to the point they might as well be on the other side of the planet. I mean seriously, watch all the fights in LotR and pay attention to Aragorn's bits. He gets his ass kicked quite a bit and barely gets by sometimes, and this is your action hero

[@Skarrier]

Also, the moments of Aragorn's struggles are often supported by the actor play: he actually shows fear when his character is in danger. In the Lurtz fight, for example, when Aragorn gets his neck pinned to the tree with an Uruk shield and sees Lurtz rushing to him in order to decapitate, there's a straight up fear for the life on his face. Torin, on the other hand, seems to have a straight face for all of his fights, *even* the final one with Azog.

[@erynlasgalen1949]

​@Skarrier Viggo Mortenson reports being genuinely alarmed during the Amon Hen scene. Peter Jackson had really worked the Orc extras up into a passion.

[@juliamavroidi8601]

​@@SkarrierI'd put that on thedirection rather thsn the actor, since noneof the dwarves emote as much during the fight scenes as the Fellowship did in LotR

[@notyourdaddude1957]

Not to mention the deleted scene fight between him and Sauron, where Sauron managed to defeat him with ease and if the ring wouldn't have been destroyed right on time then Aragorn would have been killed on the spot.

[@cheddarandsourcream]

Can’t wait for this one. Ian McKellen breaking down in tears on set for having to act infront of a green screen alongside nobody is unforgivable and for that this series deserves your dissecting of its bullshit

[@Godpk11]

Wtf? I've never heard about that. That's just so cruel.

[@JDoe-gf5oz]

@@Godpk11 A theatre actor crying because he has to act in front of nothing? I'm not buying it.

[@Godpk11]

@@JDoe-gf5oz I like the actor and I'll give this story a quick search later.

[@D123-f9k]

@@JDoe-gf5oz the video is out there. I don’t know any actors personally, but going from a great experience acting with real people you had the chance to bond with in real sets and locations the first time you played the character to being closed in by a bunch of green panels without the other actors there must be a big adjustment.

[@mischr13]

@@JDoe-gf5oz theater actors interact with other actors even if they don't have much of an audience. him being a theater actor just makes it more likely he would struggle acting alone without someone else's energy to bounce off of

[@raf952]

There is an even bigger flaw in the section "A Short Breather": besides Thorin assuming Bilbo took the chance to abandon the journey, it never occurred to him--or any of them--that Bilbo might have gotten lost, captured, or killed in all of the fighting, crashing down chasms, let alone other perils--LIKE GOLLUM! Notice there was not even a check "Is everyone OK?" No stakes... no risks...

[@fortissears5388]

As for the Goblin King, a throwaway line like "Azog has posted a price for your head, Thorin. I wonder if he'll pay more for all of you... and alive." would have sufficed to explain why he well, didn't kill them all.

[@connorcourtney3124]

It’s insane to me that this channel is still this small, some of the best reviews I’ve ever come across, very entertaining and I’ve even learnt quite a bit about writing

[@vadalia3860]

No matter how good the review, if he talks like an a-hole (which yes, he does), people aren't going to want to subscribe.

[@amandajenkins2267]

Might have something to do with the fact that it’s 2023 and this dude is still casually using the R word

[@-MrFozzy-]

@@amandajenkins2267 ………..BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAAA….Oh….oooooh that’s hilarious! For one thing casual swearing is infinitely more excepted today than it ever was before, and secondly….if you believe people won’t subscribe because of it…..you are HORRIFICALLY and HILARIOUSLY out of touch with…..most human people

[@gentlegirl9270]

@@amandajenkins2267 not just that, but a slur for little people and another slur for mentally ill people. its really no wonder why he isnt more popular lol

[@alcuantoterme8556]

His hate for left leaning stuff is so hamfisted and repetitive as the things he criticizes. However the points he rises when he manages to stay on topic are quite good.

[@Silversmith70]

Seeing the plain text of the script of Gandalf's part makes me more amazed at how incredible Ian McKellen is at acting.

[@Awecyan32]

My headcanon for gandalf stating he's afraid Smaug will side with Sauron is that he came up with a reason off the top of his head like when a teacher asks their student why they didn't do the homework and the student says their dog ate it. I think his real reason for helping Thorin is to get a boatload of money and buy some high quality hobbit weed. Saruman's reasoning for disputing all the evidence and not supporting the quest is simply that he knows Gandalf has been smoking too much lately and has a problem, but doesn't wanna embarrass him in front of elrond and galadriel. Also, obviously it should go without saying that he invited Bilbo on the adventure so he had a hobbit plug.

[@dudeguy8686]

Lord of the Smoke Rings

[@AndyCandyZeroSugar]

Reading this is cracking me up! This is perfect.

[@stanboyd1]

adding anything about Sauron is just pointless in this movie, if you look back at Fellowship, when Gandalf sees the ring he kind of recognizes it but isn't really sure and he has to ride away to the grand library and do some research. If gandalf knew sauron was returning already at this point, then in beginning of fellowship he would of known that ring instantly.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

@stanboyd1 not really, as gandalf says in the fellowship "there are many magic rings", sauron returning does not increase or decrease the chances of a a random magic ring being THE magic ring

[@stanboyd1]

@@matthiuskoenig3378 yes there are more than one magical ring, but if he already knew of saurons return, he would of already studied the ring, so he wouldn't have had to ride miles and miles away to look up details of the ring. He would of just chucked it into the fire right then and there to see if the script appeared.

[@symphonyofaria]

As an introvert the gandalf piling dwarfs in bilbo's home thing gave me an anxiety attack

[@ghostoflazlo]

Because extroverts LOVE having their home trashed by strangers....

[@TheKnoxvicious]

@@ghostoflazlo Yes, THEY DO.

[@arctic_dwella]

You people are so weird.

[@matijasostojic4288]

​@@TheKnoxvicious Not strangers I don't think.

[@UniTheAppl]

​@@arctic_dwella People have emotions, Steve

[@Marines_Memelevolent]

One way to fix the issue of Thorin charging Azog on the tree (though the rest of the scene is at issue still) would be to have Azog actively digging up or pushing the tree to make it fall faster. At lest then it could be seen at Thorin risking his own life to try and give his companions even just a few more seconds.

[@danielcossey9118]

I'd add another would be to simply get rid of the tree. It's sufficiently dangerous for the crew to be surrounded by fire on the edge of a crumbling cliff without hanging off of it on a tree. Have them there, cornered, when Thorin has a "he's here for me" self-sacrifice moment, throwing himself at Azog as a last ditch hope for his companions to be able to get away. Then the scene plays out as is with Bilbo rushing in to save him instead of leaving him. They wouldn't even need to have a feasible way to escape since it's last ditch in the hope Azog will focus on Thorin and let the others flee since he has his prey.

[@unimpartialobserver]

@@danielcossey9118 The tree is canon. The goblins even sing a mocking song about them being trapped up a tree.

[@waderoberts3701]

I thought the Shire stuff was the best stuff in the movie by far. I never wanted it to end.

[@noveltea9593]

But, I don't want to wait four days... Congrats on getting the claim denied btw! 👏

[@StupidBros]

What claim?

[@noveltea9593]

@@StupidBros copy right stuff

[@Jruderstam]

I really like how you aren’t only talking about what the movie does wrong but talk about what you like as well. Unfortunately I feel like a lot of reviewers/analysists don’t.

[@dannypalin9583]

It's funny. Whether it was Jackson or Warner Bros wanting to turn a children's book into an adult fantasy, it reminds me of the brief conundrum Tolkien himself went through. While he was writing The Lord of the Rings, he went back to The Hobbit to tweak certain aspects of the story so it fit in line with its sequel. One of these included an attempt to make The Hobbit a more serious and mature story. When he shared the manuscript with his peers, they loved it. But they all made the same observation: it's not The Hobbit anymore. That's the exact same problem The Hobbit Trilogy has.

[@merrylderrickson3147]

"Thorin appears to be frustrated with Bilbo because he keeps endangering himself and the company, seemingly forgetting that a goddang mountain they were climbing literally just came alive and started punching other mountains." 1:44:33 definitely my favorite line to this point...and there are a lot of really good ones. There's no better form of critique in terms of crappy art etc than to simplify the truth of the action in a humorous form. So top marks in that, lad

[@angamaitesangahyando685]

I only watch movies so that I could appreciate the dozens of hours of sublime KZbin reviews thereon. Your channel is delightful for that purpose. - Adûnâi

[@holz_name]

I stopped watching movies and watch only the reviews on KZbin, the reviews on KZbin are way more entertaining.

[@wintersdarkestlight3066]

@@holz_name True enough, besides, what's the last movie I watched and actually enjoyed? I think TLOTR is the only one I can bring myself to rewatch on a yearly basis (which I do).

[@Gstrangeman96]

@@wintersdarkestlight3066 Same. The last piece of TV/Film that I actually watched and enjoyed was The Expanse and that was a good... 3 years ago?

[@benrex7775]

@@wintersdarkestlight3066 I recently watched Ironman 1 again. I don't know if it is worth a yearly rewatch, but it is certainly better than anything else marvel releases nowadays.

[@BunkerFox]

"Movies make me want to be dead" - Mike Stoklasa, film critic

[@Scott_A]

The Frodo- dwarf helmet scene makes me think it is to show that Bilbo has not spoken much of his time with the Dwarves nor shown the contents of the chest which is why he writes such a detailed story of the expedition for Frodo

[@BWMagus]

But why does he write it in a letter when he literally just finished writing a book about it?

[@andrewmeyer3599]

@@BWMagus Cus in this version he is currently finishing the book, the whole Hobbit Trilogy is literally him recounting and writing it down

[@jeremygernhaelder8783]

Did anybody else notice that Random has selected a slightly more upbeat tone of the Misty Mountains Cold motif for his character notes...it is an elegant and subtle touch that makes me love this video even more ❤❤❤

[@Dogasupreme]

One wishes to know the exact name of the Cover, as it sounds quite soothing

[@TheXLink]

If you haven't found it yet, the name is "The Misty Mountains -Elevator version".

[@Dogasupreme]

@@TheXLink King

[@SiqueScarface]

43:57 I have to intervene here. From a Physics point of view, this totally makes sense. The tree branch weighs much more than the shield, and thus its inertia protects the arm. This is a known circus trick, where you lay some heavy stone on the breast of a guy lying on a nail board, and then blow the stone with an heavy hammer. Nothing will happen to the guy below the stone, as the stone is too inert to transfer much of an impulse from the blows.

[@ClementineC-c3z]

I love how Thorin yells « Kili! » when he believes half his company is dead due to the stone giant falling, when it’s Fili who was with Bilbo… Kili was just behind him, in the « safe » part of the mountain 😂

[@pyrrhusofepirus8491]

The Hobbit makes me depressed, once you know the backstory to the production and watch the behind the scenes videos in comparison to the LOTR behind the scenes videos, it makes me miserable. The fact that most of this was done in essence on the fly, makes me appreciate them despite their glaring flaws.

[@DIEGhostfish]

I can almost forgive the legolas wank because it seemed the only time anyone was having fun behind the scenes was when they made Orlando Bloom sing along with the meme.

[@JesterMann-j7o]

They're not just rabbits, they're *Puts on sunglasses*, Rhosgobel rabbits.

[@aznashwan]

50:52 this absolute gem of a way of putting things is why your commentaries are unmatched

[@sunilpermaul7876]

The "Good evening" thing with Balin is a callback to the "Good morning" interaction with Gandalf. When Gandalf questions as to what Bilbo means by "Good morning", one of the ways is implying the morning is good. So Balin is taking the "Good evening" as Bilbo saying the evening is a good one.

[@Case2_0]

One thing I think you missed was how long lived the dwarves are. The “mentally challenged” one is an equivalent to a human 13 year old. And that’s if he is 40 years old.

[@juliamavroidi8601]

Still doesn't explain why Thorin takes a literal child with him on this dangerozs mission

[@poissonsumac7922]

This is actually a first for me since I actually recall watching and liking the Hobbit trilogy (it WAS a few years ago though, so maybe my opinion will have changed) as opposed to seeing critiques of shows and movies I haven't seen before. It'll be interesting seeing the movie from a more critical point of view. And the whole breakdown OF the movie will essentially give me a Kronk movie full of hilarious hijinks and memes. Quite exciting!

[@30noir]

Compared to TLoTR, they're bad, compared to regular movies they're ok. Compared to regular modern movies, they're masterpieces.

[@poissonsumac7922]

@30noir After watching the analysis, I must in fact agree. Lots of random bullcrap luck and tonal inconsistency. Doesn't really damage my enjoyment of them, but I think I won't be nearly as immersed if I watch them again.

[@TheOrangeDuke01]

I hated the Hobbit movies when they came out, I can't imagine what I'd think of them if I watched them again!

[@SilverViper1000]

The first hobbit is not that bad, but the quality goes down the hill with the end credits if the first movie. The biggest problem with this trilogy is, it wants to be the mature lotr trilogy and at the same time a children's book.

[@sethkeown5965]

​@@poissonsumac7922 a very mature conclusion.

[@Wishdreamerx]

Just, wow. I wish I'd found your channel sooner! I'm a big fan of movie/series analyses, but most of those types of vids on YT are either just reaction videos that add nothing save for ''oh, that character looks hot'', incohesive ranting, or philosophical but just as incohesive praising. I LOVE the little notes you keep on the characters; it's such a nice way of objectively portraying both character continuity and inconsistencies. Please keep doing what you're doing; I'd love to see you tackle other movies and shows in a similar way!

[@BigCowProductions]

Maaan it feels so good to see that transition and you writing the notes you just went over.

[@Kevin-jb2pv]

The sad thing is that, IIRC, there's _a ton_ of written works by Tolkien (letters, notes, essays) that describe what a lot of the characters from LOTR were doing during the time when the events of The Hobbit take place, and if this movie's script had been allowed more time in the oven it could have been pretty long (maybe not as long as we got) and been a good, coherent story. The problem is that the notes about thus time period are largely scattered and not organized into a single coherent story, so it would have taken a lot of time and care to sit down with these notes, cross reference the different materials to avoid plot holes, and connect them together into a single epic story. Tolkien had not done this work for the studios in this case, so all the work of constructing a coherent story would fall on whoever attempted to do this, though. Instead, they just slapped shit together and pooped it out thinking that trailers with Ian McKellen barrating would put butts in seats and that any work beyond that would just be a waste of time and money. Honestly, though, going with a campier, lighter story on a shorter run time would have been perfectly fine for this story.

[@vaiyt]

It wouldnt be too hard, really. Plenty of tolkien nerds could do it, and studios pay people to keep track of this sorta thing as a job.

[@juliamavroidi8601]

There's alrwqdy plenty of people that did that work. Tolkien has a *very* dedicated fanbase. There's texts wriuten abozt that sort of stuff every year

[@DIEGhostfish]

They didn't have the rights to all those notes, ONLY to the parts already in the appendices of LotR and The Hobbit. Christopher would not let them have a single word more after seeing the initial movies.

[@nothingman7163]

@1:43:00 I really love how Gandalf is more concerned with a 3 story dragon's affect on the world as opposed to a 2,000 foot tall literal mountain that could probably yeet one rock at Gondor and wipe it out lol

[@the_primal_instinct]

The reason Fili and Kili expect Bilbo to deal with the trolls is because he signed the contract as a burgler. His supposed skillset and obligations give them justification for forcing him to do it, regardless of the risks involved.

[@silverscorpio24]

Except that flies in the face of what Fili and Kili know about Bilbo personally. They know he's scared shitless of Orcs and has never seen a troll in his life.

[@TheDraconicBard]

It's also Bilbo's first trial so we can see his first step in becoming the burgler It also makes sense to me that the dwarves were watching but didn't attack til Bilbo needed help. They considered the trolls to be a major threat, so if Bilbo could successfully slip in and out without a fight, it would be their best bet at no casualties, but when one of their party was in danger, the chance was nil so they came in to help

[@BulgyBoar]

It made my year when the notification for this arrived. Your slaughter of Rings of Power was first-class entertainment and I was confident that you'd be just as wickedly accurate with The Hobbit (which I actually really enjoy, though I fast-forward through the silly chase sequences). My only squeal of indignation was you referring to my No.1 hunk Thranduil as a douchebag - Thror had supposedly refused to give him back his own property, and as for tackling Smaug on behalf of the Dwarves who'd stolen his belongings (and thereby getting his own people slaughtered in droves for nothing), well, his refusal makes perfect sense to me! :D

[@rosiehawtrey]

Ah Tauriel aka Ladylas, and she's a carpeteer in real life... 😳🥺😍😋

[@YodaOnABender]

No matter what anyone says, I love these movies. They’re far from bad, unlike a more recent Tolkien “adaptation”

[@LadyDoomsinger]

I'd probably call it "mediocre". Not great, but not exactly awful either (certainly not by modern standards) - it's entertaining enough if you just turn your brain of and enjoy the spectacle. Though I suppose that could be said for practically anything.

[@JDM-is-my-name]

My dad really likes most of the Rings series (he also has some issues with Rings of Power because its just nothing, so much nothing). He also likes the Hobbit movies and I'm happy that he likes it. It might not be a good movie, but I agree that it's more mediocre than bad, but it's probably bad within the world of Tolkien. Ok movie, probably not the best adaptation

[@hakuryuvision4624]

Same. I still love the Hobbit movies, but can totally see why others don't like them, and i myself wouldn't call them 'masterpieces'. I agree with a lot that was said in this video, but i can't help but watch them from time to time. ...however, let's not talk about Rings of Power.

[@raifthemad]

To you they are far from bad. I could not watch half an hour of the first one before giving up in disgust.

[@YodaOnABender]

@@raifthemad you sound fun to hang out with

[@-MrFozzy-]

I’m quite surprised you didn’t mention the utterly INSANE hand eye coordination from the clean up scene. Everyone one of them PERFECTLY do everything perfectly. This amount of skill should say they are ……gods

[@emersonertz9144]

oh my god you people are so miserable 😭 suspend your disbelief!!! it’s a movie!!! about a fictional hobbit and dwarves from a fantasy book!!!

[@-MrFozzy-]

@@emersonertz9144oh…..you’re a happy clapper….

[@notyourdaddude1957]

@@emersonertz9144 Oh really? i thought they are real people, no way tell me more because i didn't knew that until now.

[@jakzine540]

@@emersonertz9144 XD That's certainly what the Studio, not the production team and actors, was hoping for.

[@salagayikes4016]

I think the worst thing about the hobbit films is the wasted potential in it. I love the book and it wouldve made a great singular movie but greed got in the way. Martin freeman as Bilbo is incredible and works so well for me but after the first film Bilbo just seems to disappear. Smaugs scenes are incredible so of course his short chat with Bilbo is arguably the best scene in the trilogy and one of the only scenes to rival the main trilogy alongside Bilbo and Gollums meeting in the first film.

[@mikecvanarts]

Fantastic video as always, sir. My one criticism would be: you are reviewing the extended cut. I haven't seen this cut so it's nice to be able to see something new, however every time you say, "this could've been cut" it makes me respond most of the time, "it was though in the theatrical release". Of course in this case you've said you are reviewing the extended cut so you're not wrong, but most extended cuts are bloated because they just shove most of the scenes on the cutting room floor back into the movie. So it's a little jarring for me , but still, great video. Looking forward to the rest of the series.

[@erenakker3962]

Yeah I thought the same thing. Reviewing the extended cut without reviewing the theatrical release first is weird especially if you are going to say multiple times how bloated the film is.

[@Janzer_]

There's another issue with saying things should be cut, which is, what is the actual intent by the director versus that of the studio. Studios will focus on what they focus on best, which is generating profit. To me, the first movie in the trilogy about the book, was actually the closest to the book of the subsequent movies. For fans, it's just about as close as you could get, without literally doing every scene exactly the same. Are there some changes? Of course, it's a different medium and to attempt to create video/audio from text exactly is an impossibility. The second and third films get progressively worse in regards to keeping to the original content of the books, which alone isn't the biggest sin, but interjecting new content that not only had nothing to do with the books, but had nothing to do with the lore or the universe created. That second part, is the biggest sin, when you start creating things outside of the rules laid down by the author of the material that do not work within the context of the created works. (Elves and hobbits having romance? Get out of here!) I have to add in addition one more thing, and that is creating changes in the story that have no basis to be changed. Swapping roles for example among men and elves in the last movie, makes literally no sense other than to portray elves as more hateful, which blows my mind. The elves hated goblins and orcs among everything else, and to watch them stand by while the dwarves died was literally the opposite of what happened. So many horrible things done to the story in the last movie, it's unforgiveable.

[@robertsmith-hp8tv]

@@erenakker3962 BOTH versions are bloated... just my take. Making movies out of "dense" books (and Tolkien is as dense as Tolstoy) requires condensing them down AND MOVING THE ACTION ALONG. Now, if one wishes to remain "true to the lore" (LOL) you're looking at a 12-15 hour snoozer.

[@tubetorpedo]

​@@robertsmith-hp8tv LotR while not perfect was good example of changing the medium from book to movie. While I personally e.g. like Tom Bombadil and Barrow-downs it was perfectly logical to cut them out from the movie version and things I bitch about are other changes bits like cave troll impaling Frodo and especially ghost cleaning up Minas Tirith and such scenes. Extended editions made LotR clearly better than theater version because books had some much material they simply had to cut much out to make movie manageable to average viewers, so those extra bits added more nice lore for those who like the source. Hobbit which I have only listened/glanced from second monitor while doing other things had bloated written all over it. Everything especially action scenes dragged way too long while also being way too cartoonish which might fit the source material which was younger kids book, but not the general LotR feel they were clearly aiming at trying to tie Hobbit to LorR movies. Harsh reality is Hobbit was never such epic story as LotR or Silmarillion is, so trying to force it to be one was almost impossible task from the start. Of course if one wanted to make actually more lore accurate version on screens it would mean TV series, but at current age I would not simply trust anyone to do it proper justice, but butcher it with current politics, values and simply amateurish writing like happened with Rings of Power.

[@DiggerPat]

I'm very curious about the amount of "It's in the book, just not spelled out" I'm going to run into during this series. I always thought the whole "Necromancer was unnecessary because it wasn't in the book" complaint was unfair because it *was* in the book - just happening offscreen - and I never had a problem with the films actually depicting it beyond it being mentioned a few times. I know you typically keep to the film/TV material itself so it might just be me giving it a few extra points because "It's book so at least they tried" even if the execution turned out to be a flop.

[@MrChickennugget360]

main problem is the poor hobbit is pushed aside in his own movie.

[@RamGuy459]

Nothing wrong with adding the Necromancer and Dol'Guldur. But the way they are doing it wasn't all that great. All the parts have great potential for being great, but it all feels rushed and poorly put together. Like the meeting with Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel and Sauroman for instance. A really cool scene and everyone in that scene are som stellar actors. But the writing, dialogue and communication isn't very good. It's also baffling how they stepped away from minatures and models with practical effects in the Lord of the Rings, to mostly CGI in The Hobbit. It might make sense from a cost-effective perspective, you save a lot of time by doing it this way. But why is the CGI so bad a lot of the time? The dwarves bathing in the fountain has to be some of the worst CGI I've seen in such a big budget movie for a very long time. And while the CGI on Azogh, the warges etc isn't bad, the fact that they went with this overempeshis on this being less realistic for whatever reason just makes all the CGI that more apparent as you suddenly end up with warges, goblins etc. That doesn't look like they fit within this universe. They could have avoided this issue by not having the world look exactly like the world in Lord of the Rings. Instead they make the world, and the already established characters such as Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel etc. Look the exact same as in the Lord of the Rings. While everything else like the wargs, orc chieftans, goblins etc does not. The Hobbit as a book comes off as a more fairytale like and childish book. Which works, as you as a reader can interperate it as such. The issue with the movies is how they fall flat in the middle. They try to embrace the more childish and cartoony details of the book, but insist on keeping the world and everything else identical to Lord of the Rings. Creating this strange disconnection where you suddenly have nonsensical things happening in a far more sensical world.

[@alextaunton3099]

I just dislike how they completely bungled the Dol Goldur scene. Sauron was not faced and "battled" with; he fled before the white council got there because Saruman (who, in the books, was already corrupted at that time) stalled the white council because he wanted to find the ring for himself and didn't want to rouse Sauron's attention too early. They made Saruman still "good", added schmaltz about Gandalf and Galadriel, put a confrontation with Sauron in there that was explicitly not canon, and yeah the whole point of LotR was that the free peoples could not defeat Sauron in an open confrontation, and that victory came from the actions of humble little hobbits. They could have done something good with Dol Goldur but they pretty much ruined it

[@DiggerPat]

@Alex Taunton I can check my books after work but I don't think that's accurate. After the Battle of Five Armies in the Hobbit Gandalf mentions the Council driving Sauron out of Dol Goldur, then in Fellowship elaborates that Sauron had expected the attack and "only feigned to flee" after preparing to do so beforehand. I always interpreted that as "OH noes, I am totally running away because I was attacked and defeated!" rather than "Let's book it before they get here." Saruman was still "good" at that point, as well. His scheming was still completely secret to anyone but himself and he did help the Council drive Sauron out because it suited his own ends.

[@DominionSorcerer]

@@RamGuy459 they had to wing it with CGI instead of practical sets, minatures and models (of which there is still a lot in the movie, like all of the Shire) because the studio gave them such a small timeframe to make the film(s) in.

[@KibblezanBitz]

I'm no expert on film, but I was absolutely taken out of it when I first saw it in the cinema and they played the Ringwraith theme for Thorin approaching Azog

[@vaiyt]

Tbf the ringwraith theme was conceptualized as a "sauron's top brass" theme.... and then got used basically exclusively for the Ringwraiths 😅

[@JMB_Knight]

Funny enough, the Ring Wraith theme actually has lyrics (which, quite obviously, don’t match Thorins character). Taking this into account, the use of it when Thorin approaches Azog makes even less sense.

[@KibblezanBitz]

@@JMB_Knight That's an excellent point. Baffling decision all around.

[@GeordieSwordsman]

@@JMB_Knight I figured it meant that they'd given Thror's ring to Thorin and were going to use that to explain his madness in the third film. Needless to say, I was left disappointed.

[@tjyearly6569]

The ringwraith theme is for azog, not thorin.

[@rodzwart6360]

A problem with the troll scene (even in the book) is that the time taken to cook and eat the dwarves would have taken them past dawn anyway, whether Gandalf split the rock or not. The trolls have lived their whole lives knowing they would turn to stone in daylight. They wouldn't start cooking outside the cave just before dawn.

[@floatyperson1979]

The out of pocket refugee diss 💀

[@benlewis1192]

You were right about Saruman, he was already corrupted by Sauron and deceiving Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel while actively searching for the One Ring.

[@DIEGhostfish]

I think at that point he still thought himself uncorrupted.

[@p.c8281]

Wow, you absolutely got my attention for more than two hours straight. This commentary was informative, entertaining and hilarious at the same time. Keep going, you’re content truly deserves to be recognized and i definitely look forward to the next two videos about The hobbit and the rest of content you’re planning to make.

[@jon_knee5]

I randomly woke up to this playing in the middle of the night, went back to the beginning, stuck around for the 13 hours of unpacking and analysis and enjoyed every minute

[@robw7676]

"I have a key" "Keys open doors" "I've got a map with a rune!" "There's another way in" "That's why we need a burgler" Painful.

[@veracyning5572]

I'm excited about this. I actually liked the Hobbit to an extent when it came out and just watched it again in preparation for your analysis. I'm interested to see where our criticisms line up. Incidentally I just watched the rings of power for the first time so prepare for another inundation of your comment sections on that with my own thoughts. 😎❤

[@AnimeSquirrel]

I love how, as rough as the Hobbit is, it's so drastically better than Rings of Power that it can be used to teach Rings of Power how to write scripts and shoot film.

[@BadWaterBouldering]

Plot driving the characters is the essence of The Hobbit book. One of the main themes of the book is luck, and Gandalf is Deus Ex Machina personified. Which is why when he dies in Moria in. Fellowship, it is that much more impactful because now the characters must make their own choices and be responsible for their own actions. Hot take: The Hobbit book is not a good fit for a movie adaptation. It is simple, has too many undefined characters, and the plot relies heavily on luck. It's a children's book. It might make for a good cartoon, maybe. But I feel a live-action adaptation, whether faithful to the source material or not, was doomed to fail.

[@mamba101]

Hobbits doing hobbit things in Hobbiton is always a welcome scene, regardless of its efficiency to the story.

[@christiancividino455]

I know it’s not mentioned in the film but the jewelry Thranduil wants were the white Gems of Lasgalen. They were his own gems of “pure starlight” he commissioned dwarves to make into jewelry for his wife who died. It’s a callback to the Nauglamir that Elu Thingol of Doriath commissioned of dwarves in the First age in Beleriand.

[@user-jy2sj4ed4i]

🥵

[@vaiyt]

Fun fact, Lasgalen is literally the plural form of Legolas 😂

[@12classics39]

It is said in the books that Bilbo’s Mithril shirt was originally made for a young Elf prince and that’s why it’s small enough to fit Bilbo and not a Dwarf. If Thranduil commissioned Erebor dwarves to make jewelry for his wife, it’s not much of a stretch to assume he also commissioned them to make a shirt for his son Legolas.

[@Twinrehz]

The eagles saving them from the orcs after the gang gets out of the mountain is - I kid you not - actually in the book. So if it is a cop-out (I wouldn't know, I'm one of those madmen who actually likes these movies), then that one is squarely on Tolkien. I think it's the reason Bilbo recognizes the eagles coming as a good thing during the third movie.

[@BWMagus]

It could have been done well, it's not inherently terrible.

[@richardduska1558]

43:55 I think that one is fine since the tree trunk is much thicker than a shield so it can absorbe more of the impact.

[@Dousch]

Excellent analysis. I have to say I was skeptical of cutting to this screen at first 09:30 but I grew to appreciate and even look forward to it as more and more notes were added to the list. This isn't something I've seen in an analysis before and it really helps keep track of the abysmal writing decisions. I don't see myself watching this trilogy again. I checked out one of the better fan edits recently and now I'm done and out. Emperor's New Groove however, now that's a yearly rewatch.

[@georgethompson913]

Actually massive amounts of gold do have a magic effect, Morgoth the Lord of evil put his essence in the world. But the most of it in gold, so gold has an innate evil in middle earth.

[@DIEGhostfish]

1:40:12 Christopher Lee was also not long for the world, and bringing back the only member of the cast to have ever actually met Tolkien seemed deeply important. As did letting him show a somewhat heroic side to Saruman, after all, had he not been too old and arthritic for the hiking scenes, *he would have been Gandalf.*

[@johnallen6254]

Honestly I am primarily watching this for the constant little shots at Rings of Power, they make me cackle with glee every time

[@aaron.ward.]

Nitpicking isn’t criticism. Yes, the dwarves all fell inside because it’s funny. There doesn’t need to be a backstory about why they’re leaning against the door. Gandalf putting the rune on the door is a five second shot that shows he had planned the event ahead of time. This style of sprawling eight hour reviews is so pedantic and self-congratulatory.

[@Baehellet]

Small nitpick, an actual branch of wood would likely be able to hold up better than a wooden shield. If a shield is well made it can protect against a great number of things, but as we've seen from Eowyn vs the Witch King, a giant bludgeoning weapon like a mace can splinter/shatter it with little effort because it's only a circular plank of wood that's roughly an inch to an inch and a half thick. The branch Thorin used was proportionally about as thick as a leg, as well as reportedly being oak which is a fairly dense, hard wood. It would provide a much better defense against a bludgeoning weapon than a wooden shield due to the increased mass. The thickness of the log would mean that most of the damage the mace deals would likely only be surface level. As long as the core of the wood isn't compromised, the branch would hold up, and it would take an incredible amount of force to break an oak branch of that thickness, you'd need machinery of some kind. That's why we settled on sawing and splitting as the tried and true method for shaping wood, not bashing it with a hammer until it breaks. Fantastic video apart from that one small misunderstanding. Wood is much stronger not just when it's thicker, but when it's still in it's log form as the strikes Thorin was blocking were landing across the grain which prevented it from splintering like it would if it was a shield.

[@Parasolhyena]

Excellent point, I'd also throw out there that dwarves are for sure much stronger then humans, they look like a sturdy race even if we just go off the hobbit movies and/or the lord of the rings movies. Heck Bifur even lived with an axe in his skull, thick bones as Gimli would say. Though for an outside source Tolkien does confirm it " the most resistant, stout and strongest of the races"

[@waynepurcell6058]

Consider this, real life Viking shields were generally around 1/2" thick at the center tapering to around 3/16ths at the edge. Usually using the VERY light Linden wood (Basswood) faced with some linen. They worked pretty well. Shields are more for deflecting, not necessarily absorbing blows. Any solid energy absorbed by that wood is going to be transferred to your skeletal structure. That's why war hammers/maces were popular when plate armor came about. You might not ever make it through the plate armor, but you could damn sure break the bones underneath with hard impacts.

[@derberndvonthueringen]

Thank you dear algorithm for coming back to those Hobbit videos over and over again for almost a year now. I can't help it, I just love those videos and I can't stop listening to them.

[@AWonderingTraveIer]

As someone who enjoyed all the hobbit movies this is a very good breakdown and critique just because something is enjoyable doesn’t mean it’s above criticism you made a lot of valid points and even changed my mind on a few things because you articulated it well keep up the good work bro

[@Forsman87]

I thought we would never see the new wave of internet critics get their claws in this one. I absolutly hated the hobbit and never felt people were on my side when i took a dump on it, i hope to make new friends today.

[@juicedgoose]

Could have done with someone who hated it around when I watched it. We were just deeply disappointed and a bit sad. Hatred would have spiced up a mournful viewing

[@elric5371]

I loved it.

[@ostatnifajek128]

I can actually believe that a dwarf would withstand a multiple mace attack on his arm - Dwarves are significantly tougher, stronger and more resilient than humans. Additionaly, they are immune to mind control, that's why they didn't turn into wraiths/servants when they were given rings of power by Sauron. However, rings of power increased their greed and desire for gold, finally resulting in diminishing of the dwarven race.

[@GeorgeMonet]

Nothing about anything in the Lord of the Rings trilogy implies either that rings use mind control or that the dwarves would be immune to it if it did, which it doesn't. You are looking at fan head canon which has no basis in what is actually written in the trilogy. No, the rings were implied to corrupt through evil magic. Which 100% did affect the dwarves which even you yourself admit did corrupt the dwarves. So the dwarves had ZERO resistance to the rings.

[@AkasukaNoMila]

​@@GeorgeMonet It is in the books, and the legendarium of Tolkien that dwarves were inmune to the rings influence. Thats why Sauron only got The nine.

[@unkreativeslauri5901]

​@@GeorgeMonet since the 9 rings of Men and the 7 Dwarven rings have the same powers (as far as we know), their different effects are entirely because of the differences between dwarves and men And the different effects are definitely no fan theories, there is an entire chapter in the Silmarillion ("Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age") and a mention in Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings describing it

[@Theyungcity23]

Yeah he says stuff to that effect multiple times like “how did they survive that!” They’re fantasy beings that are typically depicted as being incredibly durable. That’s how.

[@LadyDoomsinger]

It would have been such an easy fix (even in post production), to have Balin (or whoever) explain in a voiceover during the flashback, that blocking Azog's attacks with the branch broke Thorin's arms, which was why, though he was able to cut off Azog's arm (yada yada sturdiness of Dwarves) he was unable to finish him off, which was how Azog survived.

[@monkfishy6348]

There is a great 3 hour film in this trilogy. Some fantastic fan edits out there.

[@themuch21]

Where would one find such an edit?

[@deb-annivers-20]

@@themuch21 There's one called the Cardinal Cut. Haven't watched it myself yet, but supposedly they trimmed the film down to around 4 hours. --> kzbin.info/www/bejne/jnOZmWyreKaNo6s

[@benrex7775]

I think that sadly the bad stuff is also in crucial scenes, which inevitably makes fan cuts also not brilliant. So if you cut out all the bad stuff you are missing the story and if you leave only the plot relevant bad stuff in the fancut it is not as good of a movie as it could be if it was done good from the getgo.

[@bilbo_gamers6417]

btw, for anyone who is actually interested, Thrors gold sickness was really due to his ring. He wore the greatest of the seven Rings of the Dwarf Lords. And that made him very wealthy and filled his mind with avarice.

[@PoyoDesuka]

An Unexpected Journey is my favorite of the Hobbit Trilogy, and a big part of that is the story doesn't get as much opportunity to overraise the stakes. My favorite parts are the little things.

[@turbostrike1632]

I recently read all of the Hobbit so I'm interested to see how these movies "adapt" the book. Also about the rune being marked on Bilbo's door, in the book Gandalf didn't simply mark it so that the dwarves could find the house but the rune meant something like "Burglar for hire."

[@1stmorgoth289]

Little comparison to the book: I find it fascinating that compared to the book they kinda rush to evrything and always arrive at the perfect timing. Examples in this Film would be the Trolls, Rivendell and in some way the mountain giants, with more coming in future movies. The thing i find funny about it is that they have/had so much time to spare or use and stil always run towards things. Additionaly they chose to add alot more action into the respective scence compared to the book. Not to say that the scenes because the book did it differently, but only to show hwo certain sence can be approached differently. For comparison sake: Trolls: Movie: in this bilbo sneaks in gets catptured and the dwarfes rush into battle only to be captured themselves, infused with "comedy", and then be saved by gandalf. Book Bilbo sneaks in gets captured and due to the dwarfes not giving him a clear instruction, and there own stupidity, the get captured one by one, also showing the trolls not to be absoluty stupid. Then Gandalf saves them by staling for time. In the Movie it seems that at most halve an hour has passed from capture to sunlit, in the book its assumable that hours have passed. One of those has a much more believable behavior for creatures that die in sunlight. Rivendell: Movie: Grant nonsensical chase sequence with "battle" and Radagast. Book: Slow approach with singing Elfs. Moon-Runes: Movie: Lucky they got here at exactly the right time, chances 1:365. Book: Atleast they stayed for a couple of days if not weeks so better chances. The one thing i would say the movie did indeed made better "kinda" is the eagles. Not the scene in generel, but the fact that gandalf calls for them. As i recall in the book the eagles just happen to flight by and spott the orcs and wargs doing stuff. The Rest is still stupid given that in the Book the eagles even give kind of a reason for why they help and why they only carry them to were they are. In the Movies they are kinda reduced to a flighting Taxy, wich they are not based on the books. Thanks for reading and have a nice day. Ps: I realy like those Videos

[@robinanwaldt]

2:02:49 I find it interesting how the goblin king calls Glamdring "bright as daylight" when both the Hobbit and LOTR movies neglected to adapt Glamdring’s ability from the books to glow in the presence of orcs and goblins just like Sting. Orcrist also glows in the book. One could argue that since this film explains Sting’s glow as resulting from the elves who made it, that Orcrist and Glamdring not glowing is an inconsistency since they were forged by the same people. Also, in the book near the end of the escape from goblin town, there’s a brief but pretty epic moment where Gandalf and Thorin stay back, blocking the narrow pathway for the goblins who are still chasing them, draw their glowing swords in the darkness and fend them off. I have no idea why this potentially powerful visual couldn’t have been adapted instead of the large chunks of slapstick shenanigans.

[@DIEGhostfish]

Well, because LotR already ruined it for Glamdring Orcrst alone glowing wouldn't have the same effect.

[@bitesized4503]

My only gripe with this video/videos is the fact that it would appear you haven’t read the books. For example, “writing themselves into a corner” when the dwarves are hiding in the trees over the Wargs, this is exactly the events of the books and as is the flaming pine-cones. It’s essentially a “low point” part of the plot, happening more towards the middle of the book- my issue is that it happens in the end of the first film. This should not be the case, as it does not take place in the middle of the story/trilogy.

[@billjacobs521]

It's only one book, and he HAS read it; he says this right at the start of the video. He also said, at the start of the video, that he doesn't care what's in the book, he's judging the movie on it's own merits. How did you miss both of these things?

[@purplehaze2358]

The use of the Ring Wraith theme over Thorin choosing to fight Azog was kind of terrible for more reasons than just what was said in this video. It's like Peter Jackson just _forgot_ that song had actual lyrics, which simply do not match the contents of the scene.

[@Silvershadowfire]

I agree with you, the bones of a very good three hour movie were in this nine hour epic, but there is so much padding that it's hard to see it. The other major problem is that they had effectively thirteen more or less blank canvases to work with, and while that is a large cast, that didn't stop them from adding more superfluous characters later. So they should have taken the time to firmly characterize and utilize the dwarves that they had. Excellent analysis as always and I look forward to part 2.

[@Phillibetrus]

There are plenty of fan edits out there that trim the trilogy down to one movie. I would recommend looking up the M4 edit if you haven't already and feel like watching the Hobbit again.

[@GeorgeMonet]

There was no good movie here. It was all absolutely atrocious. The Hobbit is a simple story about simple characters. The only character who grew or was developed in the book was Bilbo.