The Hobbit Trilogy - Why It Sucks

[@CrabGamingTF2]

Its ironic that the overall message of The Hobbit was a warning about greed and the whole reason The Hobbit movies were made was because of greed.

[@parkersmith7736]

That is not true

[@WFUNews]

@@parkersmith7736 what was the message then?

[@DeathnoteBB]

@@WFUNews I think they’re disagreeing on why they were made

[@WFUNews]

@@DeathnoteBB I know, I wanna know what he’s arguing was the message instead lol

[@Green-cactus.]

@@yrantiquebrand the guy is busy, give him a few hours or days.

[@Achillez098]

There was a cut scene in Battle of the Five Armies, where Gandalf scolds Thranduil for prioritizing the shiny necklace over his son. The scene revealed that the necklace belonged to Thranduil's wife, who died fighting the forces of Anmar a long time ago, and the necklace was recovered by Dwarves later. That scene was like 20 seconds long, yet it revealed Thranduil's motivation for starting a war with the Dwarves. But nope, it got cut, because we needed more scenes with Alfred?

[@luciaalicea8186]

Yeah i wish more people knew the context of why Thranduil wanted the necklace so badly. I will never understand why that tiny clip was cut from the theatrical version. Also I thought Lee Pace was a stand out actor and one of the better aspects of these deeply flawed movies

[@athenajaxon2397]

@@luciaalicea8186 same! He's so great in it

[@darko1295]

@@luciaalicea8186 Lee Pace in these movies is how I found out I'm bisexual (and put into perspective a whole decade of confusing feelings I would get when Viggo was onscreen in the original LotR). It's the only positive thing I ever got out of these movies

[@filipvadas7602]

I always thought it was stupid how that scene was cut but none of the other meaningless filler. So stupid.

[@jeremy1392]

As much meaningless filler as there was, that would at least complete the arc between Thranduil "knowing dragon fire well," and fighting the battle, ect. It's not a good arc, but at least it'd complete it. On the one hand these films are such a missed opportunity, so many people talk about "the films that could have been" with Del Toro's whimsical folky vision, but I genuinely think there basically isn't a world where WB signs off on Del Toro's vision without asking for things I hope he'd never agree to.

[@triseuss]

What's sad is Richard Armitage, the guy who plays Thorin, was SO EXCITED to be a dwarf! He grew out a big bushy beard. He learned the dwarf language. He learned the entire history of the character... Then he showed up for filming and they shaved his beard and told him they wanted Thorin to be attractive and subdued and he was so disappointed 😢

[@jackcouch8322]

Ohhhhh god

[@rhetiq9989]

He felt out of place among the dwarves lol he was too handsome looking

[@alexanderadams9058]

This is honestly the most tragic event to come out of this trilogy. Armitage could've had the chance to be a true dwarf if the movies had the chance to be something great. Unfortunately, they were practically born to fail 😔

[@casualcowboy1196]

Pi

[@patrykmaksymowicz1502]

Ouch! It really did must hurt. You could really feel the commitment.

[@evilmurlock]

I also read the Hobbit. My favourite fun fact is that in the books, in the final battle, Bilbo just trips and hits his head on a rock with the ring on, sleeping throu the entire battle. I find that hilarious.

[@slippinndippin1421]

@ShaicedelicDawg why are you watching this video and reading the comments then? Go finish the book!

[@duncanramsay9262]

H

[@atom8248]

@Shaicedelic which obviously at least in part follow the plot of the book I don't complain about the lotr movies spoiling the books lmao

[@ErgoDog]

By the end of the trilogy it wasn't even the story of the hobbit anymore

[@jackrusso4700]

@Shaicedeliche’s arguing the obvious fact: it’s your fault for not expecting spoilers of an incredibly old book under a video about why the movie depiction of THE BOOK is bad

[@jermyg9180]

I still can’t wrap my mind around the fact they got Hugo Weaving, Cate Blanchett, Christopher Lee, and Ian McKellen into a green room together to pretend to hit ghosts with sticks and give one liners

[@Erasureeraser]

If Jackson was given more time to prepare, he might've done it on location or even gave the visual effect artist more time to finish the CGI

[@OwenTheLegend]

Christopher Lee couldn't fly so all of his scenes were done in London in front of a green screen

[@ThwipThwipBoom]

@@OwenTheLegend I remember crying when I read he died. I've seen most of the movies he was in. Mr. Lee was such a fantastic actor and wonderful human being. I hope he is at peace right now 🙏

[@ser_ryon_vine6392]

The power of 💰 💴 💵 💰

[@deanscordilis7280]

As mediocre as the trilogy is, I won’t lie, that scene had my lizard brain firing on all 2 cylinders. I turned into Caveman SpongeBob for a little.

[@xtuffcookiex]

Seeing Ian McKellen having a break down over just being in a green screen ( most likely hours / days of shooting) and feeling " distressed" over the movie is heart breaking. WB just wanted money so they hurt the actors, franchise and fan base for greed.

[@Icetea-2000]

In terms of time it was right though, they needed to make this movie rather sooner than later, especially because of the actors aging. Although Gandalf was old anyway and we know he wasn’t exactly close to dying and Christopher Lee didn’t really need to be in the movies even though it was great to see him again, but Saruman and most other characters from Lotr were pretty superfluous. You could argue it mattered with Elrond though, who did look visibly older and is a character from the book too.

[@ZeFourmis]

Seeing this made me so sad...

[@abrahampena1263]

Usually WB makes bad decisions like this snoooo I'm not surprised

[@wonderfred]

Spare me. Dude was getting paid millions to sit in a green room. I'd gladly switch jobs with him.

[@maxw565]

​@@wonderfred it's not always about money. You think Ian doesn't have enough money for 2 lifetimes? He broke down because if his love for the franchise and the hobbit movies shat all over it. Check the making of of the lotr trilogy and you'll see the difference

[@leonpaelinck]

"I feel thin, sort of stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread" -The Hobbit

[@mythichymn]

underrated

[@jadendobbs]

Just finished reading the hobbit and onto lotr now. This quote is exactly what i thought of too.

[@ilovenycsomuch]

Great comment my friend

[@lizzyholt]

you have done us all a favor

[@theghostnextdoor4948]

honestly, it wouldn't have been so bad with three movies if they weren't each three hours long, but nooOOOOoooo, WB just _had_ to try to make the hobbit into lotr 2

[@scottishjedi1522]

The Necromancer stuff was in the books- sort of. Gandalf mentions offhand that’s what he was doing. Tolkien later retconned the ‘Necromancer of Dol Guldur’ into being Sauron in hiding whilst writing LOTR and included it in the appendices. The scene where the White Council expel Sauron from Dol Guldur also happened (minus Gandalf being a prisoner). In fact the reason why Gandalf aided Thorin in reclaiming Erebor was because he was afraid Sauron- who he had long suspected was the true identity of the Necromancer- would try to recruit Smaug to join his forces. Where the movies veer off from the books is the scenes where the Nazgûl are seen to have broken out of their tombs in Angmar. In the books by this point the Witch King and at least some of the other Nazgûl were in Minas Morgul having reclaimed Mordor and captured the city from the Gondorians. They were never buried because they were already wraiths by the time the Witch King was ruling Angmar, and the Witch King fled from the fall of Angmar. Sauron also never sent the orc army to take Erebor. And besides, Sauron did not rule the Orcs of Moria. They were under the thumb of the Balrog. So Azog being under Sauron’s command makes no sense. Nor does sending an Orc to oversee a Northern invasion. Surely Sauron would’ve sent a Nazgûl.

[@inlonging]

Finally someone responds who has read Tolkien.

[@slizzysluzzer]

The Necromancer was always Sauron. It wasn't a retcon. It was a throwaway reference, like Gondolin. Sauron wasn't 'the Lord of the Rings' at this point. Sauron was a shapeshifter vampire necromancer that chilled on an island with werewolves and got owned by a dog. There were some loose ideas to connect the same character (from the Lay of Leithian) with his Atlantis story (which would become the Downfall of Númenor). Sauron's presence in the Hobbit is exactly 'throw a name in for the sake of having name' - brief handwaves to his worldbuilding project to give the narrative a sense of depth. 'Mr Baggins began as a comic tale among conventional and inconsistent Grimm's fairy-tale dwarves, and got drawn into the edge of it - so that even Sauron the terrible peeped over the edge.' - Dec. 1937 Everything else came *after* the Hobbit's publication. Sauron's role after Morgoth fell, the finalized version of his First Age actions, the Great Rings. There were no Nazgûl and there was no Moria and no grand idea of how the throwaway reference controlled anything because it was a throwaway reference. There was no sense of timescale, no First or Third Age because 'it happened a long time ago' was good enough for the narrative and no need to work out how or why these throwaway references fit with the published work. The Appendices were Lord of the Rings footnotes and they were best that way. There's a reason they were not written into a full tale, nor was the Hobbit rewritten to match LoTR (aside from Gollum's chapter).

[@WeirdSpaghettiking]

And the dragon-sickness isn’t made up too. This guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

[@reek4062]

It wasn't even a retcon. It's more like an expansion, or fleshing him out. When Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, the Necromancer already existed in the Legendarium; in LotR the magic ring Bilbo found was connected with him.

[@isaac.merback]

i can’t imagine what it’s like to work so hard on a video just to have it blocked by youtube for no reason im sorry marcus this video slaps

[@MisterzzYT]

Yeah, unfortunately it's almost possible to avoid and creators who wanna stay monetized and relatively mainstream are kept on a 2 inch leash with what they can and can't do now.

[@ggt47]

Us after Marcus gets the video unlocked. ARAGON:My friend,you bow to no one.

[@everettmoore638]

I would give anything to live in the universe where The Hobbit was one single 2 hour movie directed by Del Toro

[@Judefluff525]

let’s start a petition for a reboot

[@thingsicantfind9545]

As much as I like del toro, I really don't think his style would've worked at all I mightve been wrong no idea

[@renaigh]

and made in Stop Motion.

[@walmartpimp2]

Before LOTR, he directed The Frighteners which was a commercial and critical failure. I have no clue how he convinced anyone to invest a single dollar in adapting LOTR, a book many felt was unfilmable.

[@adamsinclair1959]

@@thingsicantfind9545 He would definitely have presented a different vision of Middle Earth from Jackson, but I don't think that would have been a bad thing. The Hobbit is so different from LOTR that it should have felt almost like it belonged in a different world.

[@chrispysthename]

I love that Evangeline Lilly was essentially promised there wouldn’t be a love triangle, only to find out that was the only reason her character was in the movie.

[@veeluong4047]

I've just realised Evangeline Lily is a discount Jessica Biel... Who is a discount Kate Beckinsale

[@retloclive9118]

I don't know if there were scenes deleted, but I'd hardly even call it a love-triangle. Say what you will about how awful the Kili/Tauriel romance was, but Legolas' part in it is really miniscule. There's like...one brief blink-and-you'll-miss-it sentence where he mentions that Tauriel has his heart, but that's about it. Sure, Legolas' line about Tauriel having his heart shouldn't have been there, but the thing is, Tauriel doesn't even acknowledge it. I swear, people act like the Hobbit films had a non-stop love-triangle fest going on like the Twilight films when such a love-triangle just doesn't exist.

[@chrispysthename]

@@retloclive9118 But that’s the thing. It WAS mentioned so even if it’s not developed much further throughout the movies, it’s still in the back of your head while watching the movie. Had it not been mentioned, then yes she would just be the love interest to the dwarf, which is still dumb to throw into the movie.

[@IaMaPh1991]

I feel so bad for her. I'm shocked her career continued after that disastrous boondoggle

[@SacredDaturaa]

@@IaMaPh1991 Don't feel bad for her. Her career is fine, and also she's an anti-vax loon.

[@viscera_atrocity]

"Bro, you're literally about to die, could you pretend to care?" To be fair, elves kind of get to go to Paradise, if they die, and sometimes even reincarnate back into a living body on the Middle Earth, so I'm not too surprised he's not too stressed out about it.

[@kieranb7747]

Yeah remember cosmonaut doesn't read a lot so his comments seem really pointless and nonsensical. Case in point, he didn't know what the two towers were in his trilogy review.

[@kidzeus2433]

I agree, he even states that he doesn't "read for nerds" ​@@kieranb7747

[@lucasimmons075]

​@@kieranb7747to be fair, not even Tolkien knew what the two towers were supposed to be. The movie just decided which ones they would be

[@tobyjack1238]

Laughing about the phrase “green prison” then becoming somber over seeing Ian McKellen break down is probably the biggest case of emotional whiplash I’ve experienced.

[@sun332s7]

Yeah same. That shit hurt

[@MisterCatMan]

Yes I felt that. Acting is really his passion, he loves people.

[@MrSqurk]

I read this as “green inferno” for some reason. That movie is wild and I spent 5 minutes thinking of some kind of crazy mashup before re-reading what you said

[@zors5188]

Same here, I've loved Ian since I was a kid for his role as Gandalf and just the guy himself and seeing him hurt like that just feels awful. At least the next day or smth he got a surprise from what I've read.

[@ngotemna8875]

Breaks my heart whenever i see it

[@OverlySarcasticProductions]

more like the battle of the five copyright claims amiright -R

[@ibeatthewitcher3777]

Osp! Best KZbin Channel!

[@erhanjpg1467]

hey red

[@greyghost2492]

The battle of the five armies of lawyers

[@jkili4070]

Ah! Two of my favorite KZbin channels! A blessed day.

[@erikjohnson7141]

It always brightens my day when I see channels I love commenting on each other

[@pancakeman22987]

The pictures and footage of Peter Jackson wandering around the sets with his head in his hands are pretty heartbreaking. It's too bad WB seemed intent on not only milking as much money as they could from it but also used it like a technical demo.

[@MrJordwalk]

The irony: The Hobbit is a cautionary tale of the ruinous effect of greed and Warner Bros greed ruined The Hobbit.

[@scoople6]

Seriously. Even beyond that it seems like they WANTED it to fail. Every decision they passed down only made things more miserable and challenging for the film.

[@Mythowars]

Watching Ian pretty much have a huge attack because he’s locked in a green screened room acting off no one… I couldn’t imagine being on the original trilogy and being around that magic and then having to do the hobbit. I bet those conversations between Ian and Peter were heartbreaking to try and get the film made.

[@Erasureeraser]

I'm glad Jackson is honest about the whole production of the movie. Had they gave him more time for preparing, it could've been great

[@jgw9990]

@@Erasureeraser I don't know. I think they still would've asked for an unnecessary trilogy

[@bintube5269]

You'd think they would give more screen time to Gimli's father.

[@ZaddyGohan]

I didn’t know that about Sir Ian McKellen and the green screen moment. That just breaks my heart. If anyone on this earth respects those original films more than anyone, it’s him

[@iamjackspyramidshapedhelmet]

God, imagine if Christopher Lee was still here. He probably would have just backed out.

[@Satellaview1889]

If it's any comfort they had a "Gandalf Appreciation Day" right after that where they filled his trailer with fun Gandalf nick-nacks, and had a small celebration where the cast and crew watched LotR with him. It doesn't make up for how they still made the films, but at the very least they actually took his emotions seriously and tried to comfort him.

[@christophervickers282]

Christopher Lee was in the hobbit movies@@iamjackspyramidshapedhelmet

[@Kwisatz_HaderachXIII]

@@iamjackspyramidshapedhelmetChristopher Lee was in the Hobbit movies. Did you not watch them?

[@_emory]

@@Satellaview1889 this makes it like 100x sadder lmao

[@wizardswine]

I feel so sorry for ian mckellen, imagine going through the frankly incredible journey of LotR triology and then having to do... this. Must have been damn depressing.

[@tenkenroo]

Ya I really hate cgi/green screen rooms

[@Dan-ts2lz]

Ian McKellan actually had a breakdown on set because he was mostly working with nothing.

[@Erasureeraser]

Peter Jackson was in a bad pressure when he directed McKellen too since the entire production was rushed. Imagine if LOTR trilogy prep time was 5 months like Hobbit under Jackson, this is what it would've look like for the most part

[@whodatninja439]

@@Dan-ts2lz theres another clip where he falls asleep on set. he couldnt care less about this cg nonsense.

[@NVNNN]

They don’t care. They get a lot of money for everything they do. If they’d be asked to stick a banana up their mouths and do chimpanzee noises throwing their own shit at each other, they wouldn’t even skip a beat

[@LindsayEllisVids]

So it's only out of a sense of pedantry and the fact that I don't see it in any of the top comments, although i'm guessing you've seen plenty by now - Sauron is in the Hobbit because it was one of Tolkien's many hasty retcons. He has stated that originally he added a "necromancer" because the plot needed Gandalf to go away, but in Fellowship during the great exposition chapter aka the Council of Elrond Gandalf explains that the "necromancer" was, in fact, Sauron All Along, which he suspected at the time but had confirmed later (right before Aragorn admits he waterboarded Gollum for a few months). I'm not sure how to eloquently include that in a film like this as it was a plot point with no payoff in the Hobbit, but that doesn't fall under "shit added by WB". Even Tolkien admitted it was a rather clumsy retcon.

[@davidhong1934]

Cool , it's the other channel that talked about these movies

[@Primaeva]

Ohmygosh! It's Lindsay! Missing your voice on YT and hope you're thriving in other endeavours :)

[@alexwillis7980]

Great to hear from you Lindsay! I lament your yt departure daily, but I'm happy and proud you prioritized yourself:) wishing you all the best! Forever a fan, Alex

[@g-alicenine]

I remember seeing your original video's about this topic and I'm so glad you commented here. You did an insane amount of research for it.

[@roguebantha7324]

@@g-alicenine those were the first videos I watched of hers years ago and I instantly subbed; they are indeed amazing.

[@samuelm.e8778]

I understand why people don’t like the hobbit franchise, it’s no nowhere near lotr. However, I still enjoyed the movies in overall. I don’t think they’re great or terrible, but they’re fun.

[@Noir_ODonnell]

Yeah you don’t always have to look at it from a critical aspect. If you enjoy the movie that’s what matters

[@billzzdimzz2990]

I love this trilogy too

[@ErgoDog]

They suck. By the end it isn't even about the titular character anymore

[@LorexDaGoat]

I had so much fun watching them i think they are great and i didnt watch the 3 lotr movies yet ill start watching next weekend

[@notaspeck6104]

I agree. The lotr movies were a bit before my time (I was born in 2005) so the hobbit was actually my introduction to middle earth. Having watched the original trilogy (easily some of my favourite movies of all time) I can see how in comparison, the hobbit movies are extremely disappointing. They probably should've been two movies, or tbh never have been made at all. But still, I have a soft spot for them.

[@KolMan2000]

Hearing Sir Ian McKellen break down and legitimately resent the process of how the movie is being made is sad.

[@iamcleaver6854]

If only he wasn't an open pervert...

[@druid-ae]

@@iamcleaver6854 Evidence?

[@B1gBoyPants]

@@druid-ae evidence: trust me, bro

[@ThisIsWideAngle]

@@iamcleaver6854 bit of an homophobe, aren´t you?

[@jonessii]

@@druid-ae homophobia

[@G-Zilla]

Love or hate this trilogy, I’m glad everyone can basically agree that Martin Freeman is like, THE perfect casting for Bilbo. Like one of the best casting choices in history if you ask me

[@rainingcomplete3018]

Felix Felton, Paul Daneman, John Le Mesurier were given to the BBC radio serialization; old, forgotten and auditory. Orson Bean, Norman Bird, and Bernard Cribbins to the animated adaptations, full of whimsy and charm. And Ian Holm to the original trilogy, who above the others played Frodo in the BBC broadcasts. For within these actors were bound the strength and the will to govern over each. But they were all of them deceived, for another actor was hired.

[@thenaiam]

Yet another example of WB wasting great casting on bad movies.

[@smbd1234]

He was charming and charismatic in the trilogy

[@YersiniaPestisNPO]

He was a shining bright diamond in a river of shit. God I wish del Toro hadn't pulled out

[@tyleradams9845]

I liked the Bilbo in the LotR series better. The Hobbit Bilbo was too artificially quirky.

[@pearperapare]

It's worth noting that The Necromancer was always meant to be Sauron, or rather, the idea of Sauron as a character came about through Tolkien's audience's interest in the Necromancer's origins. In the book, Gandalf actually does leave the group explicitly to deal with the threat the Necromancer represents, alongside "other white wizards." It's not really surprising that a film adaptation of the Hobbit would delve deeper into what actually happened during that time, though I do think that they ended up handling it poorly.

[@smartalec2001]

Sauron wasn't always the Necromancer; in the original version of the book, 'The Necromancer' was just some guy who Gandalf had to look into, a hint that there was always more going on elsewhere in the world, and a reason to have Gandalf absent for some of the story. Nothing more. And in that same original version, Gollum offered the Ring to Bilbo as a prize for their riddle-game, rather than showing the way out. He's lying, and intends to kill Bilbo anyway, but the Gollum we know now wouldn't even toy with the idea of giving the Ring to someone else. As the Lord of the Rings was developed, Tolkien revised the story of the Hobbit, so that Gollum became more aggressive with Bilbo and instead offers to show Bilbo the way out rather than his Ring; and when Bilbo leaves with the Ring, Gollum curses Bilbo for a thief, swearing to hate him forever. And, retroactively, 'The Necromancer' became Sauron. These changes are explained in story as the version in which Gollum offers the Ring being Bilbo's original version of the tale, in which Bilbo wanted to make it seem as if he'd earned the Ring and that it was definitely his now. The revised version was the real tale that Gandalf eventually got out of him.

[@Maehedrose]

That is not what 'The Hobbit' was about, though, and Tolkien would not have approved of how horribly this was mishandled.

[@whodatninja439]

and in the book 3 appendices he straight up says necro is sauron.

[@bebo2629]

@@whodatninja439 I think it is also said in the introduction ot fellowship.

[@bebo2629]

@@Maehedrose Tolkien would not like the LOTR movies either, tho. I do not like this argument. Also he did want to change what the Hobbit was about with making it darker and tying it to LOTR directly but I think his editor convinced him that it was a shit idea and he stopped but we got the info of the council fighting Sauron similiar to the Hobbit movies and Gandalf thinking Smaug will work with Sauron and that being his motivation for helping the dwarfs (the Bree scene in the movie is a short story that Tolkien wrote later to put the two together). The Hobbit movies are still a bad adaptation.

[@czzz16]

Gandalf 100% does pursue the Necromancer and he is indeed Sauron.

[@x0gucx]

Tbh, Bofur is my favorite dwarf in the movies. Because in subtle ways Bofur shows that he actually cares about Bilbo and the crew in the first movie especially. He's the first to notice Bilbo was missing on the rock giant mountain and one of the first to reach out, and he's the one that catches Bilbo trying to leave tells him that he has a right to be there but still concedes to Bilbo's choice. Even in the third movie when kili is dying, Bofur is the one that books it through the town looking for the plant to fix it.

[@SuctionCat]

I figure Bofur was chosen because of the joke because yeah, he's honestly one of the more memorable ones (and had one of the more well-known actors).

[@kshaur13]

Bofur DeezNuts

[@made-line7627]

Plus he's cute 🫦

[@kshaur13]

@made-line7627 sounds like you're interested in Bofur Dozenuts

[@DailyShit.]

Bofur, the 2 pretty ones, the fat one, and the grey one are the only ones I remember if you showed them to me.

[@Noah-ns3xc]

I think that the most impressive feat that the third film accomplished is getting a 90 year old Christopher Lee to do his own fight scenes.

[@Myleevirus]

Why ? He did all his own stunts in revenge of the sith

[@Noah-ns3xc]

@@Myleevirus it's still 90 years old.

[@DavidM-um2uk]

He was the most metal MFer to ever live.

[@Lonit-be]

@@Myleevirus lmao, he didn't.

[@johnaustin4197]

​@@Lonit-be Agreed. I believe they were stunt doubles. I remember hearing that while watching a commentary video (forgot the name of the video though; duh....).

[@R1ckDeckard]

The behind the scenes from both trilogies are fascinating. LOTR is filled with passion, top notch craftsmanship and common goal to make something special. The Hobbit is, sadly, a story of Peter Jackson having an extended mental breakdown. WB is truly a champion of totally destroying their own successful properties.

[@mesousagaby740]

As well as trying to remove Cartoon Network shows for shitty reasons as seen nowadays.

[@stonefox2546]

Peter Jackson having extended mental breakdown, and the studio screwing over every kiwi actor in the movie.

[@madderthanever]

I mean, Jackson never directed after this trilogy... 'nuff said.

[@wasbear]

@@madderthanever Beatles Get Back was terrific, even if he wasn't really a director

[@elastichedgehog6339]

Lindsay Ellis' videos go through the behind the scenes stuff in more detail that Marcus did. Heavily recommend watching them too.

[@topbackpodcast2615]

If Peter Jackson just split the films into 2 parts like he originally wanted and making each film 2 and half hours trimming all the fat and eliminating the dwarf love side plot, I think the Hobbit would’ve been more viewed favorably.

[@reek4062]

Jackson himself decided to split it into a trilogy, after he had shot too much footage.

[@tomatosoup1304]

Honestly the worst part is how perfect the cast is. They did so well with what they had, they all had great chemistry with each other and so likeable but the big guys in charge kept trying to control everything and screwing it up

[@mediumvillain]

Theres way more to that story with the actors who played the dwarves. And really everything with these films, their production was a disaster. But the studio treated them like trash, 7 of them werent invited or flown out to the premiere of the third film.

[@henriquerodrigues7795]

Idk if I can even say casting is that good, when 90% of the cast is dwarves and they look like absolut dogshit, they either 1: don't look like dwarves, just small humans or 2: are a caricature to such a degree that it makes it so it doesn't even feel like we are in the same universe as LOTR. Martin Freeman is an amazing bilbo, however, he did an amazing job.

[@Lightwish4K]

I dont care, the hot elf chick did it for me. She carried this shit big :D

[@MrValor]

@@henriquerodrigues7795 that is not a casting issue tho, more of a costume/makeup department issue

[@henriquerodrigues7795]

@@MrValor yeye i agree, it's just like. I can't tell if casting is good when everything looks completely out of place if you know what i mean. There's definetly good casting, Like Thranduil, Bard and obvs bilbo, but the dwarves look so out of place it's hard to even say. Like, i can't say Thorin was well cast as a dwarf, when he doesn't even look like a dwarf...

[@RiseOfTheKumquat67]

As much as Desolation Of Smaug annoyed me, the line "Papa, there are dwarves coming out of our toilet. Will they bring us luck?" absolutely killed me.

[@PhattyBolger]

To be fair, Tolkien later revealed that while Gandalf was away from the group, he was indeed tracking down the Necromancer who turned out to be Sauron in disguise. And the whole reason Gandalf was involved with the Dwarves in the first place was because he was worried Sauron might enlist Smaug into his army upon his return.

[@StonedWolf666]

True and also besides the name of "Dragon Sickness" Tolkien did talk about how treasure that has been hoarded by a dragon has a strong corrupting influence.

[@maxheilman5314]

@@StonedWolf666 just re-read the hobbit a couple days ago. Tolkien names “dragon sickness” as the undoing of the master of laketown. Basically he runs away with the treasure and is presumed dead of starvation in wilderland. This leads me to believe this was just a name Tolkien had for greed as a vice. Smaug himself seems to be the embodiment of the destruction that results from greed. This doesn’t really help the case of the Jackson movies, as taking the dragon sickness idea literally seems stupid with that in mind.

[@waddleburr8048]

@@maxheilman5314 when I watched the movies I interpreted it as metaphorical not literal.

[@johnschmidt1262]

Yeah the stuff they added bothered me less than the stuff they changed. I didn't want three movies but the additional gandalf content was at least plausible, if clumsily done.

[@lisboah]

@@StonedWolf666 But in the movies it made little sense. They talked how Thorin fell victim to dragon sickness like his grandfather did. Except that Thrór was already obsessed with gold way before Smaug came and took over Erebor. Dwarves in the Tolkien-universe were always known for their greed, it's just that Sauron's and Smaug's corruption made it even worse.

[@suejones5295]

It doesn't have anything to do with book. The book is a fun read, the movies were just made up stuff that had nothing to do with the movies.

[@whinemax]

As lindsay ellis pointed out in her in-depth review, Evangeline Lilly wanted to be in the movie on the one condition that she wasn't forced into a love-triangle. Which the studio promised they wouldn't do. And then did it anyways. Thanks WB. Also it's crazy to me that the movies are sitting on a 7.8~ on IMDB.

[@DiamondDogVenomSnake1984]

I watched those videos when they came out but had never seen Lost, but now after watching Billiam's unhinged lost videos I know the context of her being Kate. I can only imagine how infuriating it was for her to get to be in The Hobbit on the stipulation that she not be used for cheap relationship suspense the same way she was all throughout Lost, only to be shoved into it once again by men who love money far more than well-written women.

[@x52wolf12]

Yeah for movies which are considered bad by a lot of people, it has a pretty good rating on imdb. Not good as the lotr imdb rating but still good.

[@MusicoftheDamned]

In the original video before WB's continuous stupidity and greed got it taken down, what happened to Evangeline Lilly in this movie is what I told someone stuck out to me the most. Of all crappy forced romance subplots in media, that particular subplot still manages to be one of the worst, which is saying *a lot* given how annoyingly commonplace it is. This trilogy basically wasted the talents of everyone it in, but I feel like she got it the worst of basically anyone overall save for maybe Lee Pace.

[@robertgates5164]

IMDB's ratings are inflated by fake accounts and those in the industry. It doesn't matter how bad a movie is, everyone involved in the industry will pop in and give it glowing reviews.

[@Novacification]

Thor: Love and Thunder has a 6.3 and I wouldn't inflict that movie on anyone. While The Hobbit trilogy is a bit of a drawn out mess, they're not bad movies, they're just not very good. IMDB ratings are always slightly high but compared to other movies 7.8 os fairly accurate. The real crime is that 6.3

[@madeleinejohnson9408]

Okay, Im not really a regular commenter, but I can’t help but express the tragedy that Del Toro wasn’t able to direct the Hobbit. While officially he “left,” I can’t help but think Del Toro left because of creative differences. (If you watch any interviews where they ask him about it, it really seems like he was sad about leaving too) His care and devotion to children’s tales and the magic in them would have made a wonderful, iconic addition to a beloved series. I imagine that it would have balanced the nostalgia of LOTR while still being its own thing. Anyways I will always be sad about the lost potential of Del Toro and the Hobbit.

[@Erasureeraser]

Didn't Del Toro left because of MGM's bankruptcy that caused the movie to be delayed many times? It drove him nuts for that, he was ready to shoot the movie but MGM and WB hadn't gave him a greenlight because of MGM's problem. Del Toro can't wait for another year so he instead left

[@deadforever]

​@@Erasureeraser reading between the lines he probably took his out at that point knowing if and when it eventually made it was gonna be a cluster fuck

[@susanr809]

I still remember watching the dwarves sing in the first one and got so excited for what was to come. It was such a cool way to kick it off and I wish they kept that connection between all the dwarves more centered throughout.

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

The fact we never got the full song was a crime. I still love that first trailer

[@steakdriven]

I knew this Trilogy would be garbage the moment I saw that Thorin didn't have a big white beard, a blue hood, and a silver tassel.

[@robbobstone]

15:46 you didn't have to caption the laugh but you did and it gets me every time ha ha ha

[@anandboss7034]

Happy to see you were able to get this re-uploaded, I was worried it would stay blocked

[@PanthalassaRo]

Why it was blocked???

[@Barbecuebaconburgers]

@@PanthalassaRo he made a community post about what happened

[@killcounter1587]

In four minutes you've got 43 likes. Sure you're not s bot??

[@depressedbreakfast2614]

@@PanthalassaRo bullshit copyright claim. KZbin allows people and companies to file copyright claims against videos and even if the video is clearly fair use KZbin will still take the video down.

[@shadowmilk3742]

I was so upset when it was taken down cause I got about half way then stopped cause I had to do other things and was depressed I didn't finish it Glad to see it up

[@ivanbobanovic]

The fact that they got Hugo Weaving, Cate Blanchett, Christopher Lee, and Ian McKellen into a green room together to pretend to hit ghosts with sticks is still mind numingly dumb.

[@CalicoJackal]

To be fair to Christopher Lee, he wasn't in the same room as the rest of them. He stayed back in London due to his age.

[@CoRxx9]

If they wanted a subplot about an elf and a dwarf mending the historic rift between the two peoples and learning to love one another… well they could have just properly adapted Legolas and Gimli’s relationship in the first trilogy

[@inactive_ina]

sTOOOP THE WAY I CACKLED 💀💀💀💀💀

[@yurifairy2969]

they did a pretty good job despite all the stuff they left out

[@KingOfHarlots86]

Yeah they definitely left out the crucially important and dare I say most enthralling moments of the elf on dwarf,hot, hot steamy butt action that is in the original lore😢. I was devastated 😭

[@CoRxx9]

@@KingOfHarlots86 who knows what they got up to in Entwood after the books end

[@rebbeccahoneycutt7941]

I felt they kinda did not romantically sure but to steal a line from Jay and Silent Bob "we are h3t3ros3xual life partners" (yes the 3's are on purpose....)

[@InfiniteBeak]

They really missed an opportunity to make a duology, the Hobbit: There and the Hobbit: Back Again

[@kyle857]

Right? It's so obvious.

[@WhoAmIWill]

As a little note, in hobbit book, Gandalf was actually dealing with the necromancer. You just don’t find that out until the end of the book and he just kinda mentions it. Then he mentions it once more when telling Frodo about the ring in fellowship.

[@micahqgecko]

Yah, I did not mind that he was included because he was actually part of the events of the time

[@toddmartin7030]

Glad someone else caught that. When he shit on the idea of the necromancer in the movie I was just thinking, "the necromancer is in the book, mentioned as causing some evil behind the scenes passively, but later on in LOTR it is confirmed that the necromancer is Sauron."

[@jimbobsenpai8494]

⁠@@toddmartin7030not only that but the necromancer plot is VITAL to saurons plan post war of the ring

[@kadebrockhausen]

I could've sworn there was a mention of the necromancer earlier in the book. But I do remember reading the Hobbit and going "wtf is this necromancer stuff" before my dad told me "that's Sauron" "oh ok"

[@TerenceGrimstone]

​@@kadebrockhausen The Necromancer was mentioned in the first chapter as having killed Thorin's father. He is also mentioned when Gandalf tells the group to not go near the south of Mirkwood because that's where his lair is.

[@ThatsABitPersonal]

29:45 my favorite part is how in this scene they put the Kili/Tauriel love confession immediately after a bunch of shots of Laketown citizens running around screaming and dying and weeping while searching for their lost or dead loved ones. And then during the love confession you can still hear screams of terror in the background

[@Lishadra]

In a good movie that kind of juxtaposition would have meaning. In this movie all it means is a cry for help

[@ThatsABitPersonal]

@@Lishadra exactly lol

[@derekmann8239]

That’s what love sounds like. Screaming and then silence.

[@renatoramos8834]

You can almost feel the romance in the air.

[@asverith]

I mean, that could work. A love confession after being in a dire situation is a well established trope, it's fine. It just doesn't work for that particular pairing because it's on a fucking speed run. It's like the 3rd time they've met, so a love confession feels... empty? Unearned? There's no emotional response to it.

[@stitchdoctor6411]

That final clip of the actors was so sweet it was beautiful

[@theoriginalemim]

I had the biggest smile on my face during that part. Love that cast

[@MajorJack92]

It unironically made my week :,)

[@CloudAerisSephiroth]

'That's a good name for Orlando - ezboy recliner' their banter was as funny as anything Marcus did in this excellent video. I need to seek it out and watch it in full

[@audreylavey8000]

Does anyone know what it's from? I'd love to watch it.

[@on3trackmind]

Delivery of this was great. Nicely done

[@Isvoor]

The thing I hate the most about the Five Armies is how all the dwarves suited up in cool armour, but then they swap to their old outfits for no reason when they are CHARGING FIRST to battle!

[@janTun3]

The line of eisenfoot was pushed back and the company of Thorin did clearly not think that thorins gonna change his mind so they puttet it off with no hope but I’m the last minute thorin decided to be Party of the battle and they didn’t have enough time to put on the armour as the orcs were chasing

[@MasterIceyy]

don't forgot the elves jumping over the perfectly solid dwarven phalanx to their own deaths, for no god damn reason

[@lapizza7175]

hahaha! I had the same tought when I first watched the movie

[@Erasureeraser]

It's a shame that Warner Bros and MGM gave Peter Jackson very short time for preparation after Guillermo Del Toro left the production. It's the main reason why The Hobbit trilogy didn't do well. He had a 2 and a half year of prep for LOTR and then 5 months prep for Hobbit, I can imagine how stressful that was for him. But honestly, I still respect Jackson for doing his best in that short prep time and made the movie that's atleast watchable enough

[@unclejackluminous1470]

I love Peter Jackson trilogy and I love the artistic LIBERTY he took in EMBELLISHING THE FUGGIN STORY. He is a FUGGIN GENIUS 🐸 ⚔️

[@KitKat-sv9qp]

I'm sorry, FIVE MONTHS? hats off to him for even creating something that wasn't as bad as it could have been, that amount of time is outrageous 😭😭😭😭😭

[@theprojectofgamers]

@@KitKat-sv9qp the average pre-production time is typically 8-9 months for ONE film it's absolutely insane that and a testament to his talent that there's any good moments in these films

[@Erasureeraser]

@@KitKat-sv9qp Yes, May 2010 was when Del Toro left, from June to October, WB was in talks with Jackson to take over, on October he signed on to direct not one but three Hobbit films. He and his team began shooting in March 2011, WB couldn't afford to delay the movie for more time because the money has been spent on the previous production that Del Toro was involved

[@noobbotgaming2173]

@@KitKat-sv9qp During filming of what became The Battle of the Five Armies Peter Jackson recalls, "I got no storyboards. I don't know what the hell I'm doing." Basically no preparation. He also revealed that the scripts were never satisfactory because he needed to create something in less than a year before filming. It also explains the increased, LoTR also had blue/green screen work too, usage of composites in The Hobbit trilogy. Because production was rushed most of the work needed to be done in post.

[@serafimb2319]

The world needed Martin Freeman as Bilbo. The world needed the Bilbo-Gollum scene. The world needed the Bilbo-Smaug scene. The world really didn't need the ~6 additional hours around these things.

[@_creighton]

WAAAAAmbulance.

[@You-vv1xv]

smaug was the only good part imo

[@deedsofdecapitation7477]

Kinda feels excessive to me, all these people complaining about the Hobbit movies. I recently rewatched them, and they're not half as bad as everyone claim. I'd rather sit through all of them than watch generic Superhero movie #85.

[@magnusgranskau7487]

@deedsofdecapitation7477 me too, i like the two first, but i never rewatch the last one though

[@e.l.b6435]

The first movie was my introduction in the tolkien verse and I'm liking it still today@@magnusgranskau7487

[@powwowken2760]

The best scenes in each Hobbit movie: 1- Bilbo talking to Gollum 2- Bilbo talking to Smaug 3- Bilbo talking to... Dwarf guy?... Thorin (thanks google) Kind of goes to show how all the pointless noise and key jingling in the world doesn't mean all that much compared to a well written character moment.

[@jessieBird96]

Fun fact, in the Lord of the Rings trilogy, Orlando Bloom rarely knew what was going on in any given scene, that's why he so often looks goofy and/or lost lol my favorite is actually the scene you make fun of when they're about to fight in front of the Black Gates, he just looks so curious, like "death means nothing, what is Mordor like???" It just screams "immortal being who couldn't give less f*cks if you paid him" 😂

[@davidca96]

and the colored contac's bothered him so much he wouldnt wear them at one point, its why you see some scenes where his eyes are different.

[@rednaskela4830]

I kind of always liked his relaxed nature as it gives his Helm's Deep scene more meaning when he was no longer able to hide his emotions. It's also made his scene at the black gates better as Aragorn was right and they survived a hopeless situation, he was probably content dying with his company similarly to how Aragorn would die for his people. Never understood why people would want a 3000 year old being to behave with human emotions to begin with, even though elves mature differently a 50 year old human has to be the equivalent to a elven child emotionally.

[@idiot_city5444]

He's just a shitty actor

[@rykehuss3435]

Immortal, not invincible. There's a difference. Elves can and did die from violence and extreme despair. Many died during the first age in the war against Morgoth

[@waynepurcell6058]

@@rykehuss3435 Yeah but death doesn't mean as much when you know you are going to the Halls of Mandos to eventually be reembodied and live in Valinor.

[@cerulean_1415]

My biggest gripe with the story in this trilogy is the orcs. In the book, Gandalf kills the Goblin King, which causes them to show up multiple times later, including the battle of five armies, to avenge their murdered king. *That makes sense.* Their exclusion from the third movie has always bothered me.

[@j.calvert3361]

Not to mention the sand worms from Arakis! Aaargh!

[@Orangeinawall]

But goblins did show up in the battle of the five armies ahead of bolg

[@DanielPlainsight]

I think that what did not help the trilogy is the fact that they did not have a diverse cast of different ethnicity. They should've had black, Asian and Hispanic dwarfs. Bilbo should've had a side story of him struggling with his homosexuality. What really would have improved tolkiens story is if they added a deeper layer of allegory that reflected modern political issues we face today.

[@alejandromaldonado6159]

​@@DanielPlainsight lol

[@Prawnsly]

@@DanielPlainsight tolkien would have LOVED this idea!

[@Fusilier7]

It was heartbreaking seeing Ian Mckellen breakdown, it must have been hard for an ensemble actor, being isolated from the cast cooped up in that green screen chamber. Remember, what made LotRs work was the cast, not the individual movie star hamming it up, the banter and line exchanges spoken by the characters made those films enjoyable. Sadly, WB got too comfortable filming marketable movie stars, they forgot how to cast an ensemble, where actors and actresses could work as a team, and carry the story from beginning to conclusion, it's the cast that connects with the audience, not the studio. Ironically, WB has become Smaug, a greedy villain holding onto its loot, and boasting about its power, yet someday will be struck down by a black arrow.

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

The fact there aren't any meaningful stories in the behind the scenes for these movies shows how lifeless the production was

[@topwomble]

They won't be struck down by a black arrow, they'll just merge into whatever media monopoly we eventually end up with

[@gassedup8046]

Usually I watch critical reviews on movies I like to gain perspective, see what I missed, or to change my opinion on a subjectively good movie that turns out was poorly written and/or preformed. This is the first time in a LONG time I gotta stick to my guns, I’m 20 now and watched these movies for the first time at 17 (LOTR at like 13 maybe?) and every criticism you bring up I’m like yeah sure I get that but then immediately I switch to fanboying the hell out of this movies seeing the scenes and remembering my first experience in The Hobbit. Personally this remains a 8/10 trilogy for me.

[@SaveMeMoon]

I have to thank you for being the only person in this comment section who knows your opinion is your own. Every comment around yours who like these films are insulting Marcus and stating that these are good films as a fact, so it's very nice to see a comment that can respectfully disagree and calmly say that you're just stating your personal opinion.

[@kyle857]

I mean, we were all pretty stupid when we were kids I guess.

[@gassedup8046]

@@kyle857 hell yeah we were XD

[@kvngn]

That whole tower sequence with Legolas inspired a sense of wonder. As in, "I wonder how anyone could have thought this nonsense belongs in a major motion picture."

[@cosmonautvarietyhour...]

Thanks for watching and commenting text me I have something special for you 🎁🎁

[@JOVONO]

I have never understood why Azog was the villain of these films because in the books he’s dead So if they had to have a more definitive villain beyond Smaug I’m not sure why they didn’t just have Bolg (Azog’s son) be the main villain because coming after the Dwarves to avenge your father is more compelling than Azog seeking revenge for having his arm cut off

[@pink_alligator]

He probably didn't sound as cool? that's a really shit reason and an even worse excuse to not follow and deviate from the source material but that is very much on par with the level of rationale that seems to have been used in the making of most of these movies

[@rivendelldaughter]

I always thought that too. It's been a whole since I read The Hobbit but I believe Bolg is in the book. Azog is in the appendices for LOTR. They changed a lot. Bilbo is like 60 in the book. Thorin is even older. And Bilbo is degraded to sidekick in the movies. I do think a lot of this was studio interference but PJ didn't want to do this either. His heart wasn't in it.

[@mallios13]

@@rivendelldaughter He wanted to do it, but a producer at New Line had beef with him, so said producer wanted to make these movies without PJ at the helm. That's why they got GDT. When GDT backed out because production was taking too long, no other competent director cared to do it except PJ, so New Line had to go with him. Which is probably why he wasn't afforded more time.

[@daegnaxqelil2733]

thery just should have gave another name to the orc leader

[@rivendelldaughter]

@Motsognir I know all of this actually. He didn't want to do it. But he had to. His heart wasn't in it. And I'm not convinced that's why GDT backed out. The way he was about the project and his passion. I think this was just the Hollywood answer.

[@ryanc5572]

Galadriel's smile before she helps pull Frodo up was one of the most beautiful moments of the movie. She didn't have much screen time at all, but her character was so memorable and powerful. That was incredible storytelling.

[@EmlynBoyle]

That is a very brief, but beautiful moment in the LOTR. It really shows Galadriel was with Frodo, in his darkest hour.

[@dirtnbloodnotherkids]

And then rings of power happened...

[@Arander92]

@@dirtnbloodnotherkids Well that show has nothing to do with the PJ movies so it doesn't really ruin THIS Galadriel

[@theseel2718]

Cateblanchett4life

[@petersteres9441]

Thank you for pronouncing Smaug’s name correctly. It’s a small thing, but it fed my nerdy soul

[@adamfreddo5703]

You could literally depict the battle of the five armies for 3-5 mins from Bilbo's perspective and it being like a horrific ww1 through the trenches "don't know what the hell is going on" sequence. Would have made it different from LOTR at least and would have Biblo as our perspective character (you know, the title character).

[@Dudeman23rd]

It's almost as if the battle is a metaphor for WW1 and a commentary on how pointless the horrors of war can be, and was portrayed in the source material as such intentionally by a guy who had seen it in person. OH WAIT

[@kalreynolds5829]

Which was also basically what happened in the book, then he gets knocked out.

[@PhattyBolger]

I highly recommend the M4 fan edit. It's brilliant. Cuts it down to 4 hours by removing all the filler and making it as true to the book as possible. Really enjoyed it.

[@evgeniya_elle]

wow, thanks for the recommendation!! I just watched it and it's fantastic!

[@e33d90]

nah ill pass

[@dionysus2006]

Thanks !

[@somewhatreallycoolguy7439]

just watched it, and it's honestly really good. thanks for the rec

[@chriswarburtonbrown1566]

Great recommendation, thanks. I watched these films again the other day and realised there was a decent film ( or 2) in there if they just cut out all the bloat.

[@nathandrake5544]

Warner Bros could have easily split the Hobbit into two movies, with the first movie ending after they are rescued by the eagles, or, alternatively, after they arrive in Erebor, if you want to devote a lot of time to the Battle of Five Armies. Splitting it three just unnecessarily drags the story out. I like Lindsay Ellis's comparison to Bilbo's analogy of feeling like butter stretched too thin over a slice of bread.

[@Henez89]

It was scripted as a 2 parter, part one ending with the barrel sequence. Jackson wanted the extra film, according to him. While he claimed it worked better that way, I think the truth is that he was so far behind schedule that an extra film and an extra year was desperately needed to finish at all.

[@qzilla5102]

@@Henez89 no, Jackson never wanted a third film. He always wanted a Duology, Warner Bros forced him to make a trilogy in an attempt to replicate the success of Lord of the Rings. In fact, the ending of Desolation of Smaug had to rewritten hastily due to this coming late into production, iirc.

[@Henez89]

@@qzilla5102 Jackson claimed to want a 3rd film when it was announced (by him) and never suggested otherwise. I've never seen anyone say it was a studio decision in the years since. Looking at the production it is clear they were never going to get things done in time. A 3rd film gave them an extra year to finish.

[@garrick3727]

When the media were first talking about The Hobbit, it was 2 movies. There was this whole thing in this time period of making the last installment two movies. We saw it with this, The Hunger Games, Twilight, Harry Potter. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find they are all Warner Bros, but I can't be bothered to look it up. I think Harry Potter started it, and then all these series decided to do the same because it was profitable. I even think they had made most of the first Hobbit movie when it changed from 2 to 3, and you can tell because the first movie just mostly follows the book, even keeping in scenes that would normally be reduced just because they had time to cover it. The second and third movie just have very long action scenes, and some of it is pure CGI (the actors do very little) because it was pasted in to pad out the runtime from 1 movie to 2. You can also tell by how some characters, like Bard, barely interact with the main cast, and instead have their own plot with side characters that the main cast never interact with: all that was added in after the main cast was mostly done.

[@Henez89]

@@garrick3727 Jackson had to film without any prep time. As the films progress he's basically winging it more and more. The battle stuff wasn't even done in the main shoot. This is why I suspect that Jackson added another part just to play catch-up. I'm sure the studio were more than happy to sell another movie. Unexpected Journey was originally going to end with the barrel sequence in the 2-film plan, so it no doubt would have been very different. A lot would have been cut to fit all that in.

[@removedmotivechannel]

17:04 lookmaxxed Legolas knows no fear

[@CHGIV]

Lindsay Ellis did a really good deep dive on why these movies ended up the way they did. I’d recommend watching that after this for even more context.

[@admiralfrancis8424]

God, I miss her.

[@Kicksncoffee1983]

@@admiralfrancis8424 She’s on Nebula now. She recently talked about E.T

[@ariellelyons]

@@Kicksncoffee1983 the best part is you don't even need a nebula subscription, you just need to be on her patreon for $2 a month, which is something even a broke college student like me can afford. i can't thank her enough for that.

[@admiralfrancis8424]

@@Kicksncoffee1983 Thanks, I didn't know she was on Nebula.

[@boredphilosopher4254]

@@ariellelyonsnebula subscription is like a dollar a month. It is cheaper and definitely worth it

[@bennh3181]

To be fair regarding the necromancer and Dul Guldur, Tolkein later wrote that all of that IS what Gandalf was doing when he kept disappearing. Yes, the Hobbit book was not a prequel, but the Hobbit movies are, so since according to Tolkein Sauron was active in Don Guldur and all the stuff with Gandalf was happening at that time, it makes sense to put it in the prequel films. Besides, where we might not question in a book where the weird old powerful wizard keeps f*ing off too, in a movie we certainly are going to wonder what the hell Gandalf is doing, and it would create massive plot hole to just not explain it.

[@michaelmccall1566]

Honestly it's one of the few additions I actually like because it gives us an explanation for gandalfs disappearances, sets up sauron's return to middle earth, and it just lets us see the white council in action.

[@goeiecool9999]

In the Two Towers Gandalf also goes away to find Éomer and his small army which help out at Helm's deep. I don't think they actually mention where he goes. He just says: "My search will not be in vain". Though I guess it's different since you do eventually find out what he was doing.

[@spifffffff]

Didn’t Gandalf at the end of the hobbit talk talk about dealing with the necromancer in murkwood

[@robertbuckley8550]

​@@spifffffffI think that's an edition from a later reprint of the book. I just recently finished listening to the Andy Serkis version on audible and it contained quite a few references to the bigger goings on in the world that I didn't remember from the version I'd read years ago.

[@bennettkeel5075]

I just loved that we were getting more Silmarillion content. I didn’t finish it until after I’d watched these movies but the realization that all of that was actually happening was mind blowing to me. Also seeing the White Council makes me really happy.

[@PhattyBolger]

I feel really bad for Peter Jackson. He and Fran Walsh did such a magnificent job on LotR and made it as true to Tolkien as possible while still making brilliant films. But with The Hobbit, when del Toro dropped out, Peter felt obligated to pick it up, otherwise the films would be moved out of New Zealand. He did the best he could- it was alright. I felt like a lot of the bullshit in it was studio mandated like the inclusion of Tauriel, or her god-awful love story with Kili, as well as the unnecessary inclusion of Legolas just as clear nostalgia-bait. There are fan edits of the films- one makes it into one 4 hour film which works a hell of a lot better, especially for a story from 1 book.

[@EmperorPylades]

You can see it written all over his face and body language in most of the BTS footage: PJ is absolutely miserable the whole time they're making this. They're literally rewriting scenes the morning they're due to shoot, have no storyboards, props are arriving between takes, everyone is exhausted and they're having to green screen ensembles because the ridiculous deadline the FIVE studios involved have demanded means that half the cast isn't available for chunks of their allotted shooting time. And did I mention THERE WERE NO STORYBOARDS? I don't think Raptor Jesus working alongside Stanley Kubrick himself could have made a watchable movie in those circumstances.

[@IshtarNike]

@@EmperorPylades Capitalism ruins art confirmed. No serious art work can have 5 massive money hungry and controlling entities pulling it back and forth trying to make sure it gives them top dollar.

[@goldenpony822]

@@EmperorPylades thanks guy, I was about to say the Tauriel + Legolas nonsense and Thorin's actor beard are a bit of a shame but it's the overall production in general that's missing the beat IMO.

[@bagofnails6692]

If he had integrity then he would have refused to make the film.

[@Mintylight]

Actually, if you look into how Jackson turned his back on New Zealanders actors who wanted to have proper conditions under a union, you may realize it's more complex than what it seems. I think he is a superb director with unique visions when he is given the freedom to, and I'm sure he has his own reasons for all the decisions that he makes, we're all humans after all, but in order to keep the LoTR franchise in NZ sacrifices was made.

[@whatisthislogic]

The mere thought of Ian McKellen having a breakdown is truly soul crushing.

[@Toogzoog]

That brief bit at the end with the actors just chilling in a video call brought me more joy than all 3 of these movies combined.

[@TheEljefe20]

💯

[@yeanisch]

Gandalf the gay

[@petloverspy]

I wasn’t expecting that and have just been sitting here grinning like an idiot, silently laughing

[@minilopgamer1950]

As a child I asked my mom, who is a die hard Tolkien fan to name all 13 dwarfs. She couldn’t even get to 10. To clarify this is a woman who read the Silmarillion multiple times. Like if she couldn’t remember than how is most of the audience? Edit: okay I asked her again recently and she got to 11

[@x0gucx]

The only reason I remembered Bofur is because I liked the actor in bbc's Jekyll and out of all the dwarves he had the most face time and lines interacting with the rest, he even started the "Bilbo baggins hates" song. After reading the book for school (8th Grade?), we had to draw portraits of a dwarf and no one in the class remembered who they got and in what part of the story they were described 😂

[@brooksboy78]

Because the dwarves are meant to be comical background noise, not real characters (outside of Thorin). The Hobbit is a lighthearted children's story with a bunch of silly dwarves with rhyming names. It's not LotR or the Silm, with its complex characters and genealogies. The audience and readers aren't supposed to remember all their names because they aren't important to the story.

[@JRAndrach]

I only remember their names because of how they are introduced in the animated version. "Thorin and company, at your service. Balin, Dwalin, Fili, Kili, Dori, Nori, and Ori. Oin-sir and Gloin-sir. Call him Bifur and him Bofur." "And Bombur, at your service."

[@willowwisp4307]

I remembered Dwalin (the bald one) since he's played by Graham McTavish 💀

[@frankcastello9320]

Wow, I've read the hobbit dozens of times and now that you mention it I tried to recall their names and the most I can remember is 10. Fili, Kili, Oin, Gloin, Bifur, Bofur, Bombur, Dwalin, Balin, and Thorin. So there are 3 I'm missing. I get the distinct impression they all have rhyming names but I can't recall them. Only a few actually matter to be fair.

[@deadshot0908]

The cast reunion is so great, shows how much they all care for those movies and they where just the right choice.

[@ChrisValera]

The frickin gopro footage in the barrel scene threw me off. I was like whoa, where’s the dwarf wearing the gopro on his head

[@strixin79]

It's totally mind blowing that it takes LESS time to read the book than watch the trilogy.

[@sercravenmohead3631]

Is that a bad thing?

[@edthegoomba]

@@sercravenmohead3631 ye sorta, it never takes longer to watch a movie adaptation of a book, just shows how much they milked the f**k outta these movies

[@ZenMonkeyGod]

Yeah especially since I've read the book multiple times since these were all released, and not once am I like "man, I wish we could see what Alfred's up to during this, I wanna see more unibrow guy"

[@roffe8751]

@@sercravenmohead3631obviously, yes.

[@TheCozyGameress]

It takes the average person much much much longer to read a book than to watch any of these movies. 🤦🏾‍♀️ Think.

[@Lasherluke]

Legolas being in the hobbit isn't the issue given the fact that they are in elven land and the king of the elf's is his father so it does make sense for him to be there, the issue is that he hogs screentime from characters who really deserve it.

[@imnackeredsirnackered948]

Fucken aye man. There could of been more time developing the dwarfs more but instead they went down the nostalgia shit. Legolas was one of my favorite characters as a kid who I dressed up for Halloween 5 times and always thought he was an absolute badass but in the hobbit, it just felt like they were forcing Legolas in too many scenes to show everyone "hey!! Legolas is back".

[@sercravenmohead3631]

Why Legolas is cool, never really felt like characters were robbed of screen time.

[@NCC1371]

They probably thought they could do more justice to his character by giving him the screentime he missed in lotr. But Legolas is a block of wood.

[@matthewnathe2049]

No it doesn't make sense since Legolas was never in the Hobbit, he is only in the movie to sell tickets and move merchandise.

[@NCC1371]

@matthewnathe2049 he is thranduils son. He could have been in the background and just not get mentioned. I don't have an issue with him being in the movie but he didn't need a whole part. Be glad they didn't give us a young aragorn.

[@cavecchibruno9426]

It's weird that you chose Dwalin as your first example of poor characterization... as I feel he is easily the best characterized dwarf. Dwalin is the first dwarf to arrive at Bilbo's house and serves as the first example to the audience of the culture-clash between Bilbo and the dwarves. Dwalin is shown to be kurt, tough, and assertive. Like most dwarves, he is very direct and "to-the-point." Having been told that there would be food waiting for him by Gandalf, he immediately helps himself to Bilbo's dinner. He is demonstrated as fiercely loyal to Thorin, but values honor and integrity even above said loyalty. It is Dwalin's speech to Thorin in the third film that triggers Thorin to realize he has gone mad with dragon sickness.

[@uncharted_bread]

Classic cosmonaut not watching the movie and complaining

[@sercravenmohead3631]

I agree and the hobbit movies aren’t bad, just like Lotr Peter Jackson made the better version over Tolkien. People were never gonna like the original hobbit over Lotr anyways, which out of the two books was more popular? I think they did a better version in both cases because the hobbit was for kids.

[@grahamhill676]

​@sercravenmohead3631 Nah sorry the hobbit movies are quite bad. I couldn't make it through any of them, despite loving LOTR. The tonal confusion, the cartoony CGI movements and visuals, the flat characters, pacing....Like it has a coupe good things about it out of ten things that make a good movie. That said, Cosmonaut is a dumbass "edgy film critic youtuber".

[@MikeAAAAA95]

Did you steal this quote from Random Film Talk's video? Lol

[@Miss_New_Booty]

If over the course of 3 movies, him eating Bilbo's dinner is all that separates him from a cardboard cut out of Gimli's character before they enter Moria, he's not a strong character

[@lunag4151]

Does anyone know where the full version of the remix at 8:35 is?

[@pleasentable]

Yes i need to know that too

[@noahpatherolofsson3054]

Ive been looking forever I need it

[@omgyoyoyoooooooo1249]

I’ll be here next year to see if yall find it

[@ducksouls3397]

Still waiting for it

[@Souten66]

I think if the studio was desperate for another trilogy, they should’ve gone with the plan of splitting the hobbit in two and have a third movie that tied the Hobbit to Lotr. Also, everyone say thank you to Viggo Mortenson for refusing to reprsise the role of Aragorn for these movies because as he said “Aragorn isn’t in the Hobbit.” Also, I think the character would have been like, 2 at the time

[@johnrambo5795]

He would have been like 20 or 30 actually ahah

[@evgeniya_elle]

@@johnrambo5795 If we take the book's timeline, he must have been 10 at the time of The Hobbit

[@dragoness777]

I agree. The third Hobbit movie felt like fanfiction of the Hobbit. Good on the actor for standing his ground.

[@e33d90]

no, you and your mindcanon imagination can go far far away

[@mattgohlke8216]

He would be 17 , he's 87 in The Two Towers

[@thevoidlookspretty7079]

What I find interesting about this trilogy is that, in the lore, all the crap with the battle before the movie where Thorin’s dad died did happen, and the Necromancer did turn out to be Sauron. In the world that the books take place in, to every character but Bilbo, this is a big important quest that removes two major threats from the north: Smaug and Sauron, as well as puts a major military and economic stronghold in the north to fend of the evil things. And to Thorin and the dwarves, they are homeless and going to go take back their home or their hoard so they’ll finally have a home again (and it’s probably a suicide mission). But that’s the thing: it’s like that to everybody *but* Bilbo. To Bilbo, it’s a fun quest where he grows as a person and has fun and comes home with a small fortune. And the tone of the story only works from Bilbo’s perspective. This movie would’ve failed even if they didn’t OC everything.

[@chilliinsanity6898]

Well said.

[@daegnaxqelil2733]

i prefer the movie to the book storytelling to some extents

[@viniciusvyller9458]

The problem was making Bilbo stand up to save Thorin on his own in the first movie, completing his character arc, then they continued using his sillier POV of the adventure together with the serious tone of the Tolkien rewriting of The Hobbit. If Bilbo continue to act like a silly guy but everyone else is serious, it may have worked, but Bilbo get serious in the second movie, all the while having his more silly shenanigans from the book. The root of the problem is tone, not the events of the movie, the events are all correct.

[@DanielPlainsight]

I honestly believe that if they had more black actors in these movies (maby a few black dwarfs) it would've saved the trilogy by being more inclusive. Bilbo should've had a side story of him struggling with his homosexuality and they could've included some allegory regarding current political issues we face today to give it a modern feel.

[@benc77]

@@DanielPlainsight Rings of power lmao

[@lawrencegodin4830]

I’m sorry for all the pain and suffering you had to go through to get this posted. You are a true hero Marcus.

[@alexrusselldev]

Orlando Bloom doing blue steel in the face of death has gotta be the funniest thing I've never noticed in LOTR.

[@sophieamandaleitontoomey9343]

Seeing Ian McKellan break down and say he thought that he didn't want to even do the film is so heartbreaking. The Hobbit truly was the chilling beginning of Hollywood choosing rushing of creators and money over legacy. The reason the original films are still loved to this day is because of the care, time and effort put into them from everyone on board. These movies are not that at all.

[@One.Zero.One101]

Yeah it was also the time when about 4 YA novels split their books into multiple movies. Business decision pushing over creative decision really expanded in this era.

[@rigelb9025]

@@One.Zero.One101 What is it that caused such a sharp turn from creative decision-making to the more studio/business-oriented approach?

[@hades392able]

@@rigelb9025 I have no evidence, but I'm blaming Obama

[@Simboiss]

@@rigelb9025 Those are the natural consequences of capitalism...

[@c_p1858]

The Hobbit the beginning? No I respectfully disagree. 1920’s Tinseltown was just a bad if not way worse and that was a century ago! Greed in film making has always existed, we just tend to remember more fondly the past then it was

[@vi8799]

While the dwarves weren't individually developed, I really liked the overall look, tone, and humor around them. My main complaint is the digital visuals, which were too much, especially in the villains. The picture is too overexposed, blurry and glowing.

[@NNoitraa]

Also i dont like that he picked as example of low characterization Dwalin and Bofur. Dwalin is the main warrior of the company, the big strong dwarf, Bofur is the most kind and friendly, and is the first one to get close with Bilbo. Also Balin, the old and sage dwarf, was simply amazing. The big L was the playboy dwarf Kili. And yes, Thorin needed more beard.

[@jonathan13co]

The dwarves weren't developped in the book, either. Only a handful like balin and bombur had actual lines, some like kili and fili were noted for their deeds, but really the rest were pretty much non-existent. The story revolved almost explicitly around Bilbo.

[@sheikhshit]

The CGI for me looks ok not really bad but just ok. They did great with Smaug and Gollum tho

[@Midgar88]

everyone complaining clearly hasn't even read the book LUL!

[@vi8799]

@@Midgar88 I read LoTR only, but I don`t care how accurate it is if it`s good.

[@purplehaze2358]

These films are part of the reason why I earnestly believe that financial incentive and artistic expression are, on a fundamental level, at odds with one another.

[@DesertStrom16]

But then there are cases where the financial incentive is only possible because of your artistic expression. I see what you mean though. This trilogy is definitely not the latter.

[@optillian4182]

Louder, comrade!

[@BourdeoixEterno]

Fans complain either way

[@ltb1345]

Not necessarily.

[@velaphinosdumo]

Movies like these show the kind of disrespect large studios have for their audiences. If we're able to appreciate the original for all its glory. Why would the glaring failures of this trilogy be lost to us?

[@BilboSwaggeens]

As a massive fan of all 6 movies, I agree with pretty much all of your points, and I actively noticed all of these things on my first watch in theaters. However, just being in the world is enough for me honestly. With real life being as stressful as it is, there's something about being in Middle-Earth that just puts my mind at ease, so the Hobbit movies are some of my favorites of all time. Mad respect for putting your thoughts out there though, Tolkien fans can be brutal

[@DestinySpider]

Glad it's back Your one quick mention of the Merlin TV show's terrible CGI now really makes me want to see you do a video on it. I've never seen anyone talk about that show

[@tortoiseoflegends4466]

Merlin honestly still holds up (besides low budget effects.) it's wizard Doctor Who and a ton of fun IMO.

[@winniethepooh1504]

That makes two of us Marcus is the perfect man to make a video on merlin

[@MaddogSamurEye]

I think Merlin was my first TV drama type show that I watched religiously that wasn't on cartoonnetwork. At some point I just dropped out for no reason I can explain, but looking back now, I think the show is just fine the way it is. It doesn't try to do anything and it embraces the wild nature of the Arthur tale in TV format.

[@rsotuyo15]

I saw it with my mom

[@cameronweaver2013]

I just love Merlin's characters.

[@tenkenroo]

Okay after hear sir Ian say “yes that is what they used to call me Gandalf the gay” made me laugh so hard. I hope that man lives another 100 years cause he is a gift

[@Missxdeadpool]

They say the trick wasn't getting Benedict into character, it was getting him to stop being a dragon.

[@stealthy1498]

The Sauron arc in the Hobbit actually does have a purpose. At the time of the hobbit, Sauron in the form of the Necromancer was taking refuge at Dol Guldur. Gandalf leaves the dawarves and Bilbo to implore the white council to take measures in expelling Sauron from Dol Guldur, which they do, after which Sauron flees back into Mordor. The account isn’t in the Hobbit but it is in the history of what happened when Gandalf left the protagonists in the Hobbit. So while yeah, it doesn’t really fit the technical story of the Hobbit, I really do see why they would put it in the movie. It’s LOTR history.

[@jacobchandler7642]

So many things went wrong in the production of these movies that I'm kinda surprised they turned out as decent as they did. The saddest part is, I can see the little moments where the original LOTR Peter Jackson magic shines through, like Bilbo's conversations with Bofur in the first and third movies, or Biblo's speech to the Company after they fled Goblin-Town. Those scenes are original additions that align with the personalities and motivations of the characters while meaningfully advancing their relationships, all while being friendly to a movie format. Those writing sensibilities are what made Jackson's LOTR movies good adaptations, and they were badly missed in the Hobbit trilogy.

[@piratenerdz1602]

Agreed

[@blllklbn4055]

Decent? Only first one is decent. Battle of Five armies is a joke as a whole (still it has nice scenes in first half)

[@felman87]

I'm amazed at how after spending almost 9 hours with these dwarves, we hardly know them. I get that the dwarves already know each other, so it's not like the fellowship who they each learn a bit more about each other. But Bilbo doesn't know them. So, as the dwarves introduce themselves to Bilbo throughout the journey, that would also introduce them to the audience. But they never do.

[@Sivert912]

The most frustrating thing is that if you watch the "making of" material, at TON of thought went into each dwarf; their costumes, their backstories, their personalities, their relationships to each other, etc. If any of that was put on screen, they would have become beloved characters. These are very flawed movies, but watching how they crafted these films under a crushing deadline, it makes me appreciate them much more than just a single watch through could. We're actually lucky they're as good as they are, but that credit goes to the teams at WETA. You would think that after LOTR and making WB a billion dollars, they'd have given Jackson the benefit of the doubt and allowed him to make the movie with all of the preproduction and care it required, instead of demanding a trilogy on a predetermined release date and bloating it into an unmanageable beast.

[@pattheplanter]

We don't even know which are male and which are female.

[@Jean-LucPicard85]

The dwarves aren't really all that developed in the book either. They just kinda exist. The Hobbit is a really short book.

[@AmandaabnamA]

Did you actually read the books? The Dwarves, including Thorin basically do nothing but bumble after Bilbo. They could've had more songs, but anyone would be lying if they said there was more characterization in the book

[@OsSas3]

@@AmandaabnamA The point he's trying to make is: Now that you're streching the material, at least develop the characters better than the book did. But they didn't.

[@cheesuschrist42069]

The funniest thing about these movies is how they actually impacted and changed New Zealand labor unions. No seriously, these movies genuinely affected the unions because of their production.

[@carphucker2973]

Lindsay Ellis does a great series of videos about this.

[@TheWinjin]

Can I have a very quick note on which way did it go? WHat exactly happened?

[@haiderzaidi5551]

@@TheWinjin he had most to all his scenes isolated in green screen and he felt really sad since he wanted to interact with human beings. Like. Seriously, they made him deprived of human interaction, next day they thre a Gandalf appreciation day tho with old props from LOTR and other stuff to make him feel better tho

[@evilwillhunting]

The Hobbit is a very short story that has a hard time filling just 90 minutes. The only saving grace of this DISgrace was Martin Freeman. He nailed Bilbo's character so perfectly. Another thing I hated is how they made Bombur, one of the most distinctive dwarves (not necessarily because he was fat, but because he was complaining the whole way, showing even the party of dwarves had a few members not cut out for this kind of thing)... and just turned him into a continuous, silent fat joke.

[@joemolnar3]

29:57 I remember when I first saw this movie I swore that rock just said "Yikes" on it and that's the best gift you could ever give someone you just confessed your love to

[@leargamma4912]

It does, holy sh^t!!

[@wilsonjonah]

Dude, I can't unsee it now 😂😂

[@fatsamurai869]

I remember when the third one came out. The AMC by me was playing all 3 of them in a marathon so my friends and I went, we were so excited We spent 10+ hours in that theater just watching the movies get progressively worse. I’ll never forget leaving that theater and the entire audience feeling completely drained and disappointed

[@rhenia4855]

I know you don't know a lot of Tolkien lore so it's fine that you said it, but I will point out to you that Gandalf tracking down "The Necromancer" at Dol Guldur and it being revealed that it's actually Sauron is a real thing that really did happen, albeit before the events of The Hobbit. It really did happen, not how it's shown in the movies, but it isn't made up just to fill out the movies, it really is something they actually took from the books.

[@EndlessKurtis]

Thank god someone said it 🙏

[@EndlessKurtis]

@UC8658W1hFN5LP0B45KjlBlg fair enough, but Tolkien did at some point make it explicitly clear that the necromancer was indeed Sauron. That wasn’t just made up for the hobbit Movies like cosmonaut seems to think.

[@evilemperordude]

The Council’s attack on Dol Guldur actually does happen at the same time in the book as in the movies. I’m sure at the time of writing, it was merely a device to separate Gandalf from Bilbo and the Dwarves, so they could go and get into trouble in Mirkwood.

[@ValerieSolanas420]

I mean, they did include things from the Legendarium that wasn't in The Hobbit. It's not really "made up". I liked the addition of the necromancer to allude to what is to come later in the third age. The Hobbit had revisions and was written independently from, what would later become, The Silmarilon. So you could do a lot with a Hobbit film AND include things from the Legendarium that happened in the third age but pre-LOTR. That's not why this trilogy was bad. I don't even think the inclusion of legolas is /that/ bad. Now, Tauriel is completely made up and a terrible character who doesn't feel anything like a Tolkien character. War of the Rohirrim has a female oc and goes off canon, but i really enjoyed it. These films just lack the magic of the Legendarium. And the goblins being a different species from the orcs in the film is something I personally hated as a tolkien nerd, but I get that that wouldn't bother audiences who haven't read any of the books or just The Hobbit. Here's to hoping The Search for Gollum is good. It seems like Peter Jackson has a lot more control over it.

[@robbaxter1497]

Fun fact. Tauriels actor specifically stated she would work on the hobbit only if not involved in a love triangle. That went well

[@cron1807]

28:40 Gold in Middle Earth is a metal that was heavily affected by Morgoth, who put some corruptive potential into everything, as stated in the Similarion. Different places and materials were affected differently, such as the Undying Lands, which were barely affected (still affected, that should not be forgotten) and gold, which was very heavily affected, allowing it to easily corrupt otherwise good people. Morgoth was basically the big baddie before Sauron, and infinitely more powerful than him. Sauron knew how to do the ring magic stuff because Morgoth invented the magic with the spell that "Made all of Middle Earth his ring"

[@SynsityGW]

"dragon sickness" may be able to be rationalized through the oodles of source material throughout the silmarillion and appendices and such, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a stupid fucking idea. thorin's greed was just that - greed. he was an imperfect character whose flaws in the book led to death and war. it was the nature of man (in this case a dwarf) that led to the mayhem that ensues. that was tolkien's point and to chalk it all up to "dragon sickness" not only neutered a central theme of the book, but also started/continued the trend of "he's a main character and has to be likable and heroic, therefore he can't have such a major flaw". the idea was never that thorin was some evil horrible guy. just that this is who people are and how they act, and this is what it leads to. on his deathbed he realized the folly of his greed, but it was too late and he died along with many others. tolkien's writing was incredible and the idea of a "dragon sickness" being the spark that led to this war leaves the entire thing absent a meaningful theme. it has "hollywood" written all over it and it's a symptom, but not the root cause of why these movies sucked.

[@petervanschepen8809]

@@SynsityGW Amen. It's not like he wasn't intermittently an asshole all the way through the story, just let him be an organically flawed character. Even if you simply must couch it in fantasy metaphysics come up with a better bloody name for it. Dumbest unnecessary exposition since Lucas shat out midichlorians.

[@ND-nr6mx]

​@@SynsityGWKinda like the conflict between kingdoms in LotR. "Oh phew, our people are safe thanks to outsiders' help! ... but why should we help others when *they wronged us in the past?*" It's just human nature showing its selfishness, doesn't have to be magical influence.

[@SynsityGW]

@@ND-nr6mx at some point hollywood stopped believing that the average movie/tv show viewer could sympathize with a character who had any major flaws. complete idiocy.

[@mattmcgrath4253]

Honestly, watching The Rings Of Power series made me appreciate The Hobbit trilogy more. This at least still felt like Lord Of The Rings to me.

[@tevildo45]

Star Wars tried to do this as well to convince themselves the prequel trilogy was good. The hobbit trilogy is hands down the worst live action adaption of Tolkien

[@rachel-8636]

I agree. I liked parts of rings of power but the characters didn't work for me. The lore changes didn't either as I never felt like they improved on it. Hopefully season 2 is better but not looking good

[@corbinwilson660]

@@tevildo45 rings of power?

[@gamersinger5118]

Matt McGrath I actually preferred the Hobbit trilogy over The Lord of The Rings. Probably because it does have some very moving and emotional moments in it that are on a completely different level than LOTR. I just didn't care for the romance between the dwarf and the elf. That was just too displaced and did not make a lot of sense. Also I love the last Goodbye. Best song in the film franchise for me.

[@Likerholicz]

@@tevildo45 I recently watched both the hobbit trilogy and the LotR trilogy for the first time. I enjoyed the hobbit one WAY more. Frodo was super annoying and the acting subpar compared to bilbo being adorable and Martin freeman who can really act. The hobbit was also much more light hearted and fun, which I liked more.

[@mrmacura3421]

You should really read the Lord of the Rings and Unifinished Tales. Most of your criticism is valid, but you are wrong about this having nothing to do with Sauron. The only reason Gandalf convinced Thorin to try to get rid of Smaug in the first place is that he feared Smaug would ally himself with Sauron. He also explains that visiting Dol Guldur was the very thing he left the dwarves for. It might have taken up an unnecessary amount of screentime but it certainly did not go against the story.

[@MikeAAAAA95]

Fun fact for anyone who's unaware: Richard Taylor was the head of Weta Workshop during filming for LOTR. They were in charge of the fabrication and on set use of the armor, weapons, props and miniatures. He is arguably the 2nd most important person on the set next to Peter Jackson as far as "making" LOTR. The amout of love and care they have for Tolkien....The fact that both men returned and we ended up with the hobbit trilogy we got.....you all know its Warners Bros fault and not Peter Jackson. Edit: I make one comment. A nice comment. And it brings out the biggest cry baby bitches for no reason.

[@phlog_dog7336]

It's so great they made the LOTR "appendices" documentaries almost as in-depth as the films themselves, so that the fans appreciate all the people like Richard Taylor dedicating their lives to their craft. It really put in perspective all the thousands of moving parts needed to make a blockbuster film trilogy, let alone a great one.

[@cdeford2]

I don't think you can completely absolve Jackson. He managed to screw up one of the most important scenes in the first film, by leaving out most of Gandalf's dialogue with the trolls, despite having all that time. And it must have been him who came up with the awful fight scenes and the ludicrous love story. Going so far off script.

[@kennyg1358]

​@@cdeford2Jackson fell in love with CGI. Also Fran Walsh deserves more credit for the quality of the original.

[@sercravenmohead3631]

Hobbit films weren’t bad and I’d argue are better than the book itself because it was made for kids, you’re just book nerds. Peter Jackson made and improved Tolkien’s books. How’s that for a hot take, if Tolkien made his own movies they’d be a convoluted mess. His characters sucked in comparison to Jackson’s version.

[@MikeAAAAA95]

@sercravenmohead3631 this has to be the worst take of all time. In any subject. I'd be amazed if a single person on earth agreed with you

[@jackgeorge9478]

“Bro you are literally about to die can you pretend to care” That sums elves up pretty well actually

[@madness9651]

Yeah this guy doesn't get that Elves cannot die. They go to Mandos' Hall, stay there for a while and then are released back into Valinor, where they are supposed to go anyways. Death means just skipping the boat ride. That's why Legolas is so detached. For him it's just an adventure.

[@FallicIdol]

The first 20 minutes of the first Hobbit movie had me smiling like a child. Right up until they start their journey, the movie is great. Then it gradually falls off the rails.

[@FallicIdol]

I forgot about the 15 minutes of exposition. I mean after that when they're still in the Shire.

[@jamesharvey3993]

I remember going in and being pleasantly surprised by the first bit of the film...only to gradually lose my sanity as to the point of breaking when they had a goblin rollercoaster ride. By the time it was three hours in and we hadn't even gotten to Beorn's house, I knew it was over. Couldn't even bring myself to watch the other two films. What a waste.

[@Thecrazym0nkey2.0-fp2nn]

I love the beginning and the part where the bilbo and gullum meet and a lil bit of the middle but the movie was a 9/10

[@Jarvis466]

You summed up my exact feelings!

[@katsasgeorge]

There is a version where the whole fat of the trilogy is cut and the good parts are pressed into a 4 hr movie. MUCH better and I've watched it about 3 times.

[@mischr13]

25:38 EVEN THE HORSE IS CG??? it looks sooo BAAAAD 😭