Ranking the Toughest Shadow of the Erdtree Bosses with DATA 🦁👨‍❤️‍💋‍👨

[@Corrupt3X]

I can't even begin to imagine just how long it takes you to comply all this data and form them into graphs. Your hard work won't go unnoticed.

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Thank you! It's fine, enjoy doing it!

[@icearnie6740]

This channel has criminally few subs given how much effort goes into each video. You can clearly tell you love data. Love these videos, keep up the amazing work!

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Thanks very much! I will make these videos regardless :) just happy people like them!

[@albertoorsomariaiorio2823]

Impressive and awesome video! Watching and counting 5 people tasting R&M true compassion literally thousands of times takes a special kind of dedication. The metric of AF is very cool as well. Really great job!

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Thanks so much! I appreciate it!

[@melo7038]

I'm shocked on the death rates for Radahn being so much lower with NPC summons than solo. He becomes a raidboss on crack if you summon Ansbach and Thiollier. Summoning for him is a trap.

[@hoeraufist]

Agreed. It is way easier to fight him one on one. But I felt like I was doing something wrong not letting ansbach and thollier fight him with me.

[@melo7038]

@@hoeraufist Agreed. I had to finish him with my bros on this adventure, even if it took 3 days

[@TTarafdar]

Well, Ansbach and Mimic was the only way I managed to kill him. And they were both alive at the end. I tried a few times solo (as I was on a solo run until PCR) but the thought of losing a few hundred hours and my will to live didn't seem appealing.

[@fungitato9486]

I honestly can't believe you don't have more subscribers. Watched this right after the overall boss ranking and I now want to go back and play all the old souls games, up to this point I only played halfway though Sekiro and I am coming back to Elden Ring after taking a break! I am excited to see the content you're yet to produce. Keep up the good work Jaz!

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Thanks very much mate! It's not about the subs, just so long as whoever watches likes it and maybe people gain some insight from it, I am happy! I have to do that with Soulslikes. When I played Lies of P, I immediately had to detox with something else. Astrobot was my next pick up after Shadow of the Erdtree!

[@pickle5337]

This is very interesting to watch, great job compiling the stats

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Thanks so much! Glad you enjoyed it!

[@XPCatalog]

Zemalf is a wonderful creator. I'm glad he got a shout out :)

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Definitely one of the more enjoyable streamers to watch while I worked!

[@markopusic8258]

With the discussion about summons making Radahn harder than spirit ashes, now I'm wondering what the trend would be for Darkeater Midir. Because the fight practically requires you to fish for the head, the players not actively drawing aggro put themselves at high risk of getting hit for collateral damage while not contributing much. Coupled with the fact Midir 2-3 shots most builds, there's a decent probability that either the host will die early, or the summons will leave the host fighting more HP by themselves than if they had gone solo.

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Ah, as you wish! Darkeater Midir has an average of 24 deaths per solo run, then with summoned runs, there is an average of 4.6 Deaths per run. This means that the deaths for Darkeater Midir shrinks by around 81% if you summon. Looks like they took a long time to fight, but the movement patterns are fairly predictable. Though they were very deadly with about 5 hits per death. But 80.55% is below every boss I recoreded for Summoned and Non-Summoned Deaths, which would make them the most difficult boss to fight with a summon partner, due to that massive pool of HP and the damage output!

[@Ibruk595]

Personally, I found the scadutree avatar to be a joke, despite using a bleed weapon. However, I think this comes down to the fact that it's got an enormous weakness both to headshots and fire, meaning eleonoras poleblade and frenzied burst shred it. Meanwhile, the base if the tree is extremely resistent to damage, so anyone who doesn't realize they have to attack the head or use fire gets a much tougher experience. It's like a very mild gimmick fight.

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Me too. Shocked me the most. When it came back the first time but unchanged I didn't actually understand and thought I missed something. I use big bonk anyway, so wasn't tough for me to target the head.

[@Outmind01]

I beat Relana and the hand mom in one try, Midra in two, the large skeleton horseman guy in 4-5. The latter is laso the number of hours I spent on that effin sunflower! Second hardest boss after Radahn for me, took longger to beat than Malenia for Pete's sake! Feels weird being the outlier in such an unexpected way. And I was even using a str/fai setup with the huge-ass anvil & still had a lot of trouble. Finding out you can crit it between phases helped a lot in the end.

[@saxoman1]

Everything you said about Radahn is super on point! He is SO BEEFY when I am summoned with another player/npc to help the host fight him. Bleed is practically ERQUIRED in this instance (unless host lets you solo). His aggro switching is nutty too, can switch mid combo (even the teleporting ones). Madness!

[@simplynel5318]

Thanks for your hard work! There's so much discourse about ppl arguing who is the hardest boss or game and finally having solid data helps clear out biases

[@danield.1605]

Just an idea to improve the analysis (though it would be way more complicated): one could calculate the Damage per Attack and obtain the Average, then divide it by the Average Time Between Attacks you just calculated. This would give us the DPS of every boss. I think this not only considers the dangerousness of certain bosses that can one shot you but also correct the outliers like Radahn's meteorite attack or Miquella's hug. Just a wild idea though. Regardless, congrats for the analysis.

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

I did genuinely consider doing this. Not going to lie, but then after assessing the damage Ansbach receives and how it changes based on your armour and stats I said fuck it. If there was a datamine somewhere with the base attack and it could be scaled to the exact same player as the game goes on, then I could cleanly do it. Unfortunately... I didn't want to subject myself to that nightmare! Thanks though, I appreciate it :)

[@danield.1605]

@@OrangeJuiceJaz Totally agree. Also, I just gave it a second thought about the DPS metric. I think one could use cheat engine to give themselves 100,000 hp and see how much time the boss takes to deplete the bar and kill you for each phase (including 1.5 or 2.5 phases). I would do it without equipment in order to get the upper bound of DPS and keep a close distance.

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

@@danield.1605 Yep, would have to be no equipment, same level for every boss, just standing still. Or maybe approach first. Then you would get a decent result. It would obviously show that later bosses will output more damage, but would be interesting to see the difficulty curve this way. It always surprises me how much more interesting stuff you could learn about with the right tools in these games!

[@solaireofcatarina44]

Very underrated channel

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Thank you! Surprised people have interest in a data breakdown of video games as opposed to something like MatthewMatosis, Action Button, Joseph Anderson and the like!

[@solaireofcatarina44]

@@OrangeJuiceJaz just do more souls, I feel like it will do well

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

@@solaireofcatarina44 As much as I would like too, need good ideas for content first. And I love loads of other games as well. Just hope people don't hate me if I do analysis on Pikmin or Pokemon sometimes!

[@RCoolAli]

I love this video ty i can still clown my friends that i beat the hardest game fromsoft created

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Glad I can help! Now beat Battletoads on NES

[@Silverstar114]

I love the work you put into these data backed claims! Look forward to your future videos!

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Much appreciated! Working on the next one now! I am afraid I have made a rod for my own back by putting so much effort into gathering the data!

[@rjculliford]

Love the data analysis for these games.

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Much Appreciated my friend!

[@J1197-b7l]

Commenting for the algorithm. Nice video & effort

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Much appreciated mate!

[@Hiro-lf3gx]

u getting a like for that hard work mate

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Thank you King

[@JLchevz]

My dude, this is all amazing, but what about the Chalice dungeons? surely cursed amygdala or abhorrent beast have something to say about difficulty lmao

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

I'll be honest, there weren't enough people going out of their way to do all Chalice dungeons on a first playthrough while never playing any other souls games. I would have liked to include them, but I couldn't get any clean data. The most annoying part of the video was finding videos and playthoughs!

[@javadragon7475]

Now Elden Ring: Shadow of the Erdtree also has the hardest data analysis in gaming history. (hard as in goes hard)

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Hard as in there is a hard lump in my neck from being slouched over a keyboard all day :L

[@javadragon7475]

@@OrangeJuiceJaz Oof, yeah, I imagine

[@12darkside12]

Interesting seeing the Abyss Watchers up so high as far as difficulty. I never would have guessed them cracking the top 10 hardest bosses. Love that fight but never really saw it as particularly rough.

[@Hookborn]

Agree. Have never struggled against them, killed them way to fast for them to be a threat.

[@manuellamanna8776]

They killed me more times than midir and more times than gael and SoC together lmao. I think it's because i started with the worst class and i wanted to light roll so i was almost naked getting one shotted

[@raydark100]

That surprised me a little, being a veteran, I did that fight on the second try, the boss is easy to stun constantly.

[@LilSassy]

Aw yeah, I was waiting for this to come from you. Thank you for all your work!

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Thanks so much! Maybe now I can make a few videos that don't require months of work! Before I inevitably think of a project that will take months of work...

[@donotreadthis26]

I hit my head against the steel reinforced concrete wall that is promised consort radahn for hours without success. Then I decided "you know what let's do something else", made my way to the haligtree and kicked in malenia's face on 2nd try... without having changed anything about my build the entire time. And then I just stood there like "what just happened?" DLC Radahn is absolutely broken. I hate this boss not because he hits hard or has a lot of health bit because his absurd aggression combined with his health, his damage, his absurdly long combos and his delayed aoe on every attack are just annoying.

[@YourFriendBassist]

The thing is - Malenia isnt that hard, then you notice how easily she can be staggered. Also, all dls bosses are way harder by pure stats (hp, resist, dmg) then main game bosses Idk about Radahn (started dls a few days ago), but Rellana imho is Malenia which I cant stagger so easily), but even so - she's on of my favourite bosses so far

[@donotreadthis26]

@@YourFriendBassist agreed. malenia being easy to stagger is her big weakness. Also she doesen't actually do that much damage per hit. She just hits you a lot and that combined with her healing inflates her health pool. And she isn't constantly on top of you. She actually backs off and gives the player some breathing room. The dlc bosses hit a lot and a lot harder and stagger is just straight up not in their dictionary. You can hit them in the face with a giant axe and they just do not give a fuck. Plus the scadutree system makes them even harder if you don't take the time to go collect some tree bark first. Once you're at like scadutree blessing 15+ the dlc feels appropreately scaled for a player who has reached the mountaintop in the base game imo. But good luck getting to 15+ blessings before fighting rellana😅

[@YourFriendBassist]

@@donotreadthis26 actually, Im starting to like that how hard it is to stagger dls bosses (without parry), cause 1st phase Malenia I've learned how to endlessly stagger her (Guts build) with lion claw ash and freeze pots, and it can lead to not learning boss attacks With Rellana I'm tied to her feet if I want to attack her without trading, and its just an anime type battle on 2nd phase with those dances around for 8 secs...)

[@MalkuthSephira]

@@donotreadthis26 ...you're aware the DLC ISN'T meant for someone who just reached the mountaintops, it's meant for builds that are already pretty much capable of beating the game (Mohg is easily as hard as Radagon/Elden Beast). i know that might only be 10 to 20 levels and a few more useful items, but it's not nothing why would you need 15+ scadutree for rellana? i think either 12 or 14 is the blessing softcap beyond which you don't get much more anyway and you absolutely shouldn't need that much to survive her anyway, 8 or 9 should be way more than enough even if you're mediocre at her fight the dlc was explicitly designed to be harder than the base game, so why is everyone so shocked about that? if you're not doing enough damage, tweak your build, try new strategies if you're taking too much damage, tweak your build, try new strategies if you don't enjoy that kind of thing, play a genre of game that you actually like and understand

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

I cannot lie that I had such a hard time in the first form, when he gained AOE and longer combos in form 2 it really put the fear of god into me. I believe that the spirit projection parts of the combos aren't very strong, but christ it does make you nervous and want to roll away, which will just get you for a proper attack. He is just the final boss that Miyazaki wants everyone to deal with, surely they cannot make bosses harder than this going forward

[@RichardRichardman]

The amount of effort in these videos has been astounding and helps out the discussion around boss difficulty. I was surprised to see Rellana so high up, since I missed her until right before PCR as I was cleaning up loose ends. She felt like she would have been really difficult without a lot of fragments but I think I was outscaled enough that it didn't matter. Regarding aggression, the metric you use seems better than average attacks over the fight, but seems to reward long multi-stringed combos even if those combos have a lot of time between the combos themselves, like in Starscourge Radahn. Is there a way to measure the average downtime of a boss (e.g, they aren't in hitstun but aren't actively attacking) to narrow the results further? It seems that would clear up things like Isshin phase 3 being noticeably slower than the first two phases or Malenia losing aggression from aggressively walking.

[@ToadimusPrime]

It's interesting seeing these results and comparing it to my 1st playthrough. I found Rellana, Bayle and Divine Beast to be pretty fair. Rellana got destroyed 1st try, Bayle 2nd try and Divine Beast 4th. Yet somehow, Midra took me almost the same amount of time as Consort Radahn. So these results are pretty interesting.

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Fair enough! I struggled most with Rellana and Radahn, which does match up and didn't have a problem with Scadutree Avatar and Bayle. But maybe it is the build? Divine beast caused me some trouble but Midra didn't, It is always interesting seeing data from multiple different sources and seeing how varied some results can be when I take my own bias out of it!

[@ToadimusPrime]

@@OrangeJuiceJaz I notice from watching streams and videos that a lot of people don't adjust builds if they're struggling. Avatar and Bayle I got 2nd try because I switched to Fire and Lightning respectively. As for the stuff I 1st try kill, those are usually bosses that get staggered by BONK, which Rellana did, she's vulnerable to staggers.

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

@@ToadimusPrime Yeah, just focusing on 2 stats is good and all for one build, but some bosses specifically deal with some builds better than others, so you need to adjust.

[@mfspectacular]

the fromsoft cycle you bring up is fascinating to watch as someone who got into these games late. People got exactly what they wanted with their hyper fixation on the bosses with ds3 onwards, but i guess that really wasnt what some folk actually liked from these games 😂

[@lonelyshpee7873]

I started with DS3, so I'm happy

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

I've been playing since Dark Souls I, knowing of Demon's Souls. The online discourse started with it just being very hard and people comparing it to Kaizo Mario games and stuff. Then lore KZbinrs took off and really got people interested in it to play the game, word of mouth spread and more people wanted to play the games. But there is always a contingent of people who simply struggle with some bosses and don't progress, which leads to frustration, IE "well I am trying my hardest and I want to see more of the game, but it simply won't let me past, If I can't get past it lots of people can't, which is bad game design". Which leads to people lashing out, asking for an easy mode and all sorts. Then it seems people quietly beat the boss and after a few years you see the games they slagged off coming into Top10 lists or Game of the year discussions. Obviously the more people a fanbase has, the louder the discussion around it will be! And more likely new players to the series who don't understand the "joy of overcoming a large obstacle" that the series does so well! I personally have a friend who really wants to play them but has given up twice. He is used to playing Destiny and Borderlands, more enemy sponge games where there isn't difficulty, just patience.

[@FalseNomen]

@@OrangeJuiceJaz Interesting reply, and a great video, thanks. For me, the world/level design has always been the main draw, and From is a good as ever. However, I think the ashes were a mistake--they do allow players a way to get through hard bosses, but for me they feel like they trivialize the fight, and when the boss is attacking something else half the time, it doesn't feel very fun to win. Worse, it seems they balance the challenge of fights around the assumption that a player has an ash out. This results in fights feeling more frustrating done solo, and unsatisfying when using an ash. Here's to Bloodborne II!

[@raydark100]

@@FalseNomen I don't know if you've seen the video, but it concludes that in most cases it's easier to do combat when you summon NPCs/players than ashes, so it's not an option that ruins anything when summons have always existed since Demons Souls.

[@mfspectacular]

@@OrangeJuiceJaz from what i gather the whole thing of the games being ridiculously difficult was a marketing thing from the jump, fans just latched onto it, didnt start it. I dont see much of the easy mode thing youre talking, i see WAAAAAY too many people trying to be aded out challenge runners & so forth. To the point they refuse to engage with both pre existing, returning & new mechanics

[@dalaios2132]

I have a question regarding the data you collected: In the intro of the video you explained that you used 5 runs (no summons) to collect data. Now I am wondering how you arrive at the numbers you show at the end. You show Rellana with 627 deaths. Is this just the combined number of deaths of 5 runs? Does that mean the average number of deahts is 125? How does it compare to the data from the other games where you just used 3 runs as reference? Did you scale the 5 run total deaths to the 3 run total deaths? Could you give me an example how exactly you arrived at the numbers you show in the end?

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

@@dalaios2132 great question. Essentially in the previous video I only did 3 runs each, but there would be anomalies in the data for royal rat authority for example where you would have 2, 2 and 63 deaths for example. So for shadow of the Erdtree, I did 5 runs and scaled them for 3 runs similar to the first video, by getting the average and multiplying by 3, so we can compare to the base Elden Ring bosses. This was also just to compare the best vs worse runs and if there would be any runs with a vastly different number I could exclude and get a different average of the 4 other runs for example. Didn’t really need to in the end! Rellana had a total of 1546 deaths for example in 5 runs. /5 *3 is 627 (rounded) Overall if I had a team of people who could help me record 100s of people playing Elden ring for the first time it would be handy, but I work full time unfortunately!

[@dalaios2132]

@@OrangeJuiceJaz Thanks for the fast answer :) You did a great job all on your own, I respect that! Collecting all of this data is a huge time investment and it already gives a very good idea about the comparative difficulty of bosses. The only thing I would have done differently is comparing the bosses by average deaths instead of total deaths. This way a viewer can relate better to the average first time player. But it also works the way you did it. Thank you for your hard work and the explanation :)

[@kristoferprovencal3608]

Personally I really enjoyed every boss in the DLC, and I thought they were pretty fair... until I got to Radahn, the very last boss I fought in the entire game. I beat him legit once, and yesterday I discovered his cheese, I'll never bother to fight him again so long as that cheese exists.

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Fair enough, I have seen the sentiment that he is just that hard. People thought that about Malenia, mainly because of the Waterfowl dance... I personally do not like to have to look up how to dodge things.

[@kristoferprovencal3608]

@@OrangeJuiceJaz To me the big difference between Radahn and Malenia is that she has weaknesses and he doesn’t. Big weapons with stagger, the right casting setup or bleed will all turn her into a borderline joke, the godslayer’s greatsword specifically is the easiest time I’ve ever had with her, absolutely bullied her without even trying. Radahn doesn’t really have anything like that, unless you count the greatshield poke, but that’s not so much taking advantage of weaknesses as it is finding a way to ignore the fight mechanics, and at that point I might as well just use the bug. Imo having those weaknesses is crucial, because it allows hardcore players to engage in intense dodging matches while also allowing the rest of us to use our brains to exploit mechanics.

[@Ghorda9]

malenia actually has 12 individual attacks for waterfowl, as she flies overhead for the last part she does a swing mid air

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

oh?? Let me check this.... Maybe it is... Well if this is the case, it would reduce her AF by 0.07! Still not much of a change positional wise! My mistake!

[@Ghorda9]

@@OrangeJuiceJaz when i was figuring it out i discovered that when locked on from standing still you had to walk towards her as she flies overhead for third flurry otherwise she hits you and walking backwards puts you in range of the flurry.

[@mistrants2745]

Ill say i do find SOTE too hard, for my personal skill level. I beat it, but i felt myself 'forced' into using mimic tear even though i beat the entire base-game without summons. Its a personal thing. There is no one line. But where i didnt mind dying 100 times against Margit on my first playthrough because i saw what killed me and i could make an attempt at avoiding it the next try, i did not feel that way against for example Radahn. The aggression is key for me. It breaks my concentration and doesnt allow my brain enough time to actually properly register what i did wrong and what i should have done. I dont mind dying 200 times even, as long as i can see a form of progression. Radahn, for me, didnt have progression. I slammed my head against a brick wall to no effect, then switched to greatshield and blood poke and he died in one attempt.

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

There is no shame in that. So long as you are playing and enjoying the game, using the mechanics to give yourself the best experience thats all that matters. Earlier souls games certainly focus on that try again mentality and the joy of overcoming unlikely odds, but in more modern games they have cranked up the aggression. Art is enjoyed on a personal level!

[@mistrants2745]

@@OrangeJuiceJaz Ah but i feel like i kinda dont fit in with either. As your data shows quite clearly, and without normative judgement: summoning basically trivializes the encounter. I did a playthrough wíth mimic tear and i dont think i died once. I LIKE the challenge, and overcoming it. But i like it primarily when the game gives me enough room to breathe and think during a bossfight. Something that i feel was kinda lost in the DLC. Though indeed, this is a personal thing. Others might really enjoy the fast paced aggressive stuff (though ive heard my criticism shared quite a lot).

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

@@mistrants2745 Yeah it is definitely a problem. Similar maybe to Fighting games in that there is a skill floor. The best enjoyment in these games is going toe to toe with a boss that matches your skill level and JUST triumphing. Similar to matchmaking in Street Fighter. The only way to really get to that level is to through yourself headfirst at the wall until you improve enough, read boss movements and work with a build you enjoy enough to be able to overcome them. But some people just aren't wired to find the enjoyment in them as much. No shame, its just a weird balancing issue. Maybe try with a different spirit summon that isn't so good to ween off? Never worry about what others think, if you don't have fun then thats fair enough is what it is. Difficulty is so difficult to get right in games and affects a players enjoyment immensely!

[@manuellamanna8776]

What is the agression factor of the two gargoyle fight in elden ring?. I swear i don't have time to attack

[@manuellamanna8776]

And what is the agression factor of the ancient dragon?. It does an insane amount of damage but is slow

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Just ran this for you! For one gargoyle it is 3.35 AF, but with 2 on screen at once it is 3.06AF. The AI is much better in Elden Ring for multiple enemies, so they wait while one attacks a lot!

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

@@manuellamanna8776 I ALSO DID THIS. Nightmarish. an average of 12.87 AF. Disgustingly slow, has 4 different attack types and just deals loads of damage with a lot of HP to sponge up damage. Probably genuinely the worst Fromsoft Boss. I know Bed of Chaos gets a bad rap, but this is so so bad.

[@manuellamanna8776]

@@OrangeJuiceJaz thank you. Your videos are amazing

[@PepperoniPapaya]

I wonder if post nerf Radahn remains the hardest boss. Either way, appreciate the analysis.

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

I am genuinely curious about this as well... I suspect it isn't from the videos I have seen. Taking away the rushdown at the start is basically removing about 5 kills each itself.

[@Ghorda9]

the ghost flame and archdrake peak dragons are not reused from the base game, they have completely new move sets

[@Grijzeham]

I think the thing with Sekiro vs Elden ring difficulty is that Sekiro possibly trains the player better throughout. The fights all have a similar "theme" (Parry) whereas Elden ring bosses vary wildly in how the play out (compare spirit deer to Melania for a very extreme example). There's less variance with playstyles and boss aggression / attacks I'd actually be really curious to know if there's any Sekiro bosses that are unusually passive, from my limited experience they bosses just get more aggressive in sequence.

[@parsus7797]

Would be interesting to see how AF decreases with summoning if you only look at the host player.

[@shiroamakusa8075]

I would be interested in seeing a graph that compares using tools other than summons affecting boss difficulty. I for one one-shot Bayle unlike any other boss in the DLC because I stacked all the damage increasing items I could get and tore chunks out of Bayle's HP bar with every hit as a result (those being the Dragonslayer Great Katana and particularly its weapon art, Two-handed Sword Talisman, Shard of Alexander and Bloodsucking Crystal Tear). The Scadutree Avatar also goes down fast if you stack anything that increases fire damage (Taker's Flames on the head + Flameshrouding Cracked Tear + Fire Scorpion Charm for example). People often complain about summons draining all the fun out of boss battles but in truth I don't think those are the most broken help you can bring to boss fights.

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Yep, I mean I have seen a few videos recently on the "1 Shotting Radahn" and "Tanking Radahn". Which are incredibly interesting. Just shows what you really can do with buffs. I would like to see the difference but I bet it would be close to the level of summons for death reduction as people who have those builds know what they are doing. Maybe in the future!

[@electricitybomb]

Do you have an aggression factor list for all bosses?

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

I did start collecting it, but it wasn't yielding anything too interesting, But I may fill it out in future if people would be interested!

[@electricitybomb]

@@OrangeJuiceJaz Definitely interested. It surprised me how slow the elden beast was even compared to ds1 bosses

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

@@electricitybomb I was certain it was meant to be a field boss you fought with Torrent, which sort of got confirmed in the patch where you could then summon them. So I reckon that is the reason!

[@jesusojeda7850]

Consort Radahn is quite a jump in difficulty compared to the rest of the DLC- I was able to destroy Malenia first try using a staff of loss build up to new game +3 and first or send try using a dragon communion build up to new game +2, however I had to change builds to try new things against Radahn.

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Yep. Just good at dealing with anything really and I think a lot of people had to change builds when they realised how tough it was. Seems like a real, final final boss and that Fromsoft may move onto something else now. Another Soulslike of course though

[@rhythmmandal3377]

I don't understand how Rellana is considered harder and have stats to back up that she is harder than Divine beast. I fought the Divine beast for hours and gave up(2 frags) went to ensis beat Rellana(also 2 frags) came back still couldn't do shit, explored some more. came back at 10 frags wasted some more hours then finally beat the thing. That divine beast took me more time than Mesmer and Rellana combined.

[@tinminator8905]

I played the entire DLC fragmentless on my first playthrough and Divine Beast still was the boss that killed me the 2nd most. I think that strength and bleed builds are quite popular and they are strong against it so thats why it seems easier to some people. But purely from the moveset it is an insane boss that I still cannot beat consistently, even after hours upon hours of learning how to fight it. If it had the same HP and Damage Multiplier as Radahn it would easily be the strongest Fromsoft boss of all time IMO.

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

I found this as well. Personally I find enemies without obvious parry opportunities more difficult to read. Like I understand how a sword swing looks in terms of distance. But guess it just comes down to different playstyles!

[@xae8259]

I think it's because the divine beast is easy to kill with spiral shards or ancient dragon's lightning strike which most people opt to against big bosses since they're annoying to fight due to camera and stuff.

[@rhythmmandal3377]

@@tinminator8905 Man PCR is shit on completely different level. The kind that you think "did no one playtest this?" / "Did they even consider how this would be fun?".

[@rhythmmandal3377]

@@xae8259 probably. I did cheese the 2nd divine beast with ADLS, and it was glorious and funny.

[@vectormanforever]

I am continually shown how much of an outlier my DLC run was. Using a great shield and a rusted anchor with frost, not a single boss killed me more than five times, final boss included. But Bayle did, Bayle definitely did. He was the second boss I fought, only having 4 of the scadutree fragments at the time. He killed me for 3 days straight, each day was around 8 hours of attempts. And really it was the one move he did in his second phase where you flying up and does to big lasers that kept getting me. I am fairly certain my death toll to him was up to 500+ But whenever I watch literally anyone else, no one else struggled with Bayle like I did, and then I get to watch everyone struggle with a promised bitch that I slapped around for 3 attempts. When I do another run I doubt I will get the same numbers, but it was definitely an experience becoming real life igon.

[@chaincat33]

something about the Agression Factor as you've called it, in both Sekiro and Shadow of the Erdtree, this actualy is meant to be a source of easiness, not difficulty, for precisely the same reason as eachother. Sekiro and Shadow are both built around the defkecting mechanic. Rellana is a nightmare if you try to dodge roll her. But use the deflecting hardtear? Suddenly her massively long combos turn into a huge source of damage and you get near constant ripostes. This is true of all the bosses... Until Radahn's second phase. The light beams mean that you CANNOT deflect him. You're forced to engage with him head on. And it's an utter nightmare.

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

I think you're right. As you become more confident and get the timings down, you find yourself wanting certain attacks as you know you can benefit from them. Unfortunately for first time players which I used for the data, it's still more the unknown and fear factor that gets people. But yes... Radahn absolutely doesn't have that factor against them. Mental fight

[@FinnishArsonist]

I don't thnink ER is built around the deflecting mechanic, but the wider range of movement - you can jump attacks to get a punish, low profile with crouch, and strafe with running. but that does allow you to get more attacks in because good use of these allow you to get a lot more punishes that just rolling.

[@oskarszile4372]

Nothing embarrassing about using mimic tear on radahn :D

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

I know. Even some of my very staunch, "Fight everything solo" friends had to use guides and Mimic tear on Radahn which makes me laugh. I do want to beat him solo though one day.

[@oskarszile4372]

@@OrangeJuiceJaz I didnt watch any guides but i tried the moores shield and gaus lance and i think it makes the fight easy af but i rather kill him using milady and mimic tear than that

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

@@oskarszile4372 Ive never actually used the lance and shield combo, which alot of players use, which makes sense as loads of the sword swings can be blocked quite well.

[@danielrobinson7872]

Pre nerf Gaius was absurdly difficult. Only boss besides Radahn I died more than 5 times to.

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

I heard he got nerfed. The immediate rushdown being gone is a shame. But its the second time Radahn has been nerfed. Shame

[@PeterVogel-p8w]

HAHA suck it Malenia stans. Radahn is now officially the hardest boss ;)

[@OrangeJuiceJaz]

Until Fromsoft release their next game inevitably!