Tombstone's weapon bars

[@MrBlindfury85]

I would love to see a series Tombstone VS: where you run the robot into stuff like food, bricks, cars, Ballistic Gel, etc. This would drive traffic, sponsors, and create another avenue of revenue on KZbin. Also great for short form videos for shorts. All the Robot fighters should do this. Use the old weapon bars and spare parts you cant use on the show.

[@ray9368]

We have that all planned out really, but need to sort some funding and do some work to make it happen safely. You may get your wish some day!

[@Leatherface123.]

@@ray9368don’t do bricks, there’s a reason (bricks have a pretty price in some collections)

[@Leatherface123.]

I collect bricks and it pains me whenever I think of a brick getting destroyed

[@BotvacProductions469]

@@ray9368 you did tombstone vs pumpkins

[@paulie2burgers976]

That would be awesome. The dangers involved however are extreme. I compete at 30 lbs and I had test hit an old chassis out in the middle of nowhere and it ripped a bolt head off and went straight through a 1/2 inch peice of plywood 25 yards away. Now just imagine tombstone removing a 20lb chunk of steel and sending it at the same speed. The forces involved are beyond normal human comprehension and trying to contain that is expensive and a challenge!

[@michaelberna987]

Ray, thanks for always being such a good mentor and contributer to the robotics community.

[@BotvacProductions469]

your not tyler

[@harrymattson1]

Thank you for the insight you provide in your streams. I'm fascinated by the variety and, therefore, the pro's and con's that go into your decision making. I also appreciate that you speak at a level that's simple enough for the likes of myself but at an informative level for fellow roboteers as well.

[@PyroBear1776]

As a Tombstone superfan, this is absolute gold. Think my favorite bar is the big red one.

[@panhead537]

As soon as I saw this thing in 2015, I was hooked! I was like "Oh, this thing's gonna kick some ass!"

[@PyroBear1776]

Oh yeah. 🦇

[@BotvacProductions469]

My favorite one is the biggest one that they used against endgame. It's kind of sad that they didn't even get five hits before being tossed out of the arena like a piece of bread into a toaster

[@dave6501]

Thank-you Ray. It's interesting to hear your thoughts on the weapon bar. 🤔🤓

[@Goodzikc]

Cant wait to watch this! Your videos are always super informative and help me alot with my bot building! Edit: I also love how simplistic and iconic your designs look, yet its clear there's been lots of thought put into the designs and forces involved, its awesome!

[@BattleBotsFanGame]

Ray breaking down the science of Tombstone's weapon bars is like a masterclass in BattleBots strategy.

[@astarrobotics]

Have you ever considered using AR600 instead of S7 steel? If you have, what caused you to avoid the material.

[@BellyLover06]

Ray doesn't need a Banana for Scale when he has the entire robot.

[@tobilikebacon]

these are super interesting if you don't know a lot about the building process (like me) keep up the good work!

[@Server0750]

To hit even harder you can shorten one side + some extra wight to stabilize it, so you get 1 hit per revolutie, faster recovery speed up of the blade and deeper cuts.

[@vac-dude9190]

The giant red and black bar with the largest spin circle looks the collest out of all of them. No wonder it delivers the biggest hit! 👹

[@BotvacProductions469]

thats what i said

[@OrangeDoseOverJuice]

Hi Ray, firstly - really glad your injury looks to be healing well :) Secondly, is there a way you could mount sharpened S7 steel teeth to the silver bar or is the likelihood of them shearing just too high?

[@ray9368]

I have tried S7 on weapon teeth before, and they have always cracked. After playing with a few alloys I’ve sort of stuck with 4140 for teeth. But I have to admit there are other options to try still. 4340 or H13 would be worth trying eventually

[@OrangeDoseOverJuice]

@@ray9368 That’s fair enough - I assume you’d have tried at some point. Best of luck with the results if you try out the other options though :)

[@andrewjeffries8721]

Thanks for the explanation, Ray! As always you are the King of Kinetic!

[@cheese.161]

And now we need a video showing all the tilbstones and all the little upgrades and what the upgrades did

[@knowntalker135]

I want to see you win again

[@ray9368]

I would like to see that too!

[@jpncompany6275]

just found your channel. I love watching tombstone destroy opponents! Thanks for the video. Of course it got me thinking, have you tried a bar that's tapered from center out to the tip?

[@BotvacProductions469]

will u use tombstone again in the future? if so, im looking forward to it!

[@panhead537]

I don't think Tombstone is ever going away. It's 2 much of a fan favorite. And U know how pissed off some fans get when things change.

[@BotvacProductions469]

@@panhead537 yeah. battlebots doesnt seem like all that much without tombstone. you heard how trhe crowd reacted when rickt willams wwas questioned by chris rose if hen was retiring mammoth

[@sertandoom4693]

Wow, I hadn't realized just how large the blades were.

[@ray9368]

65-80 pounds, depending on which one I pick. 80 is the maximum allowed.

[@BotvacProductions469]

@@ray9368 "ITS A SEVENDY POUND BLADE! ITS ACTING LIKE ITS A HUNDRED AND SEVENDY!" remember that quote?

[@Alhussainba]

Hi Ray Didn't the AR bar in got bent Last Rites? If I recall correctly that bar has the same thickness as these bars, if that bar got bent at 120lbs, wouldn't the same thickness with a longer bar make it more susceptible to bend? Also, it will be going against weapons with a higher KE (250lb)... Bar bending in big horizontals is a very common failure in smaller weight classes, maybe the KE in heavyweights have reached a point where it can achieve the same failure mode...

[@ray9368]

I've never ran an AR bar on Last Rites. I have on other bots though, like Mortician and Perfect Phoenix. And the fact that it will bend rather than snap is really a strength for it rather than a weakness. The only one that I have seen bent to any real degree was on Perfect Phoenix, but in that case it was kind of a perfect storm to make it happen. We'll continue to pursue various alloys and hardening recipes to come up with options that can work.

[@Alhussainba]

@@ray9368 My bad, I meant Mortician. When it fought in robogames couple of months ago the bar bent till it hit the frame, right? It's the same in smaller weight classes.

[@ray9368]

The bar never bent, and we still used it later at that event and again at BattleBots for proving grounds fights against Doom. In fact, I will still use those bars again on Mortician next year whenever I rebuild it. The frame however did take some damage, which allowed the weapon to not be correctly aligned through the frame while spinning. This btw is fairly common with the offset spinner design, since all of that framing does flex quite a bit in fights. Also, the weapons for Mortician are significantly thinner than the ones used for Tombstone. Everything is scaled up between the two weight classes.

[@BotvacProductions469]

the massive red and black bar i mentioned before has been repainted, right? just the teeth used to be black, but now theres a black stripe across both ends. is that to make the opponents underestimate how wide the bar is actally spinning?

[@AcidVFR400R]

The modified ME0708 that you use to power the weapon on Tombstone do you feel in todays world of brushless motors it still has a place ?

[@ray9368]

Obviously the power level is more than adequate for my needs, and the reliability of the motors has been really good. They are heavy though, and also just physically large, which dictates how large the frame has to be to accommodate it. Is there still a place for it? Absolutely. Will I always continue to use it? Great question, that I simply don't have an answer for right now. I do plan on continuing brushless development going forward, so if the day comes that I think it will be a better choice I have no qualms about switching.

[@richardzheng231]

Hey Ray. Have you ever considered having spinners of different shapes? I know some horizontal spinners have triangular weapons to have more mass further out from the middle.

[@ray9368]

There are certainly ideas that could be explored. Fusion’s triangle weapon design is well done, and a bigger version of that could work well. But it is a lot more design and machining involved and I don’t know I see the benefit of that extra work honestly. Tombstone still delivers a big enough hit 😁

[@richardzheng231]

@@ray9368 I hope to see tombstone again in battlebots. It was always a bot that would cause a lot of havoc and damage

[@RossPeters]

Hi Ray, I enjoy watching your work. I’ve often wondered if you’ve considered using indexable inserts and tool holders at the ends of one of your weapons. I’m referring to the ones used in large shell mills that are found on very large milling machines. I would think these would be only usable on certain type of opponents where you may need to cut into harder armors. I know these things aren’t cheap, but you may be able to find some that are in the recycling bin of a machine shop at a lower cost.

[@ray9368]

You would think that using equipment that is designed for cutting metal would be ideal, but the reason machining works is due to specific feeds and speeds, and a great deal of math (and trial and error) goes into making sure you get those feeds/speeds correct. Pushing beyond those limits can crash the machine, sometimes catastrophically. And well, in combat we are basically crashing the machine over and over :) Long story short, the inserts you refer to simply shatter at these sorts of forces. It's not a bad idea, and at various times in our sport history people have tried larger machining equipment, and it pretty much always fails.

[@captainsmartass3368]

I love this video. What bar would you use against Hyder?

[@ray9368]

Hydra would need a sharp edge to dig in, since I know they'd be adding lots of forward armor for me :) So probably an S7 one

[@TheInvertedFollicle507]

Hello Ray great video have you thought about having a son of whyachi style bar where you've got the tooth covering more than just a small fraction or the tooth and bolted vertically? It will cost you dole hitting power but I've never seen their s7 spinning hammers fail.

[@roboman2444]

Do you think adding a rubber "bushing" between the sprocket and the hub would help reduce impact forces into the weapon drivetrain? Motorcycles use them between the chain sprocket and the rear wheel.

[@ray9368]

I can see for a motorcycle going many thousands of miles that it could help longevity. For combat though, it's kind of a problem that doesn't need fixing honestly. The biggest shock to the weapon power system is when the weapon motor is at full speed, and the weapon comes to an instant stop. The armature inside the motor has enough momentum that it wants to continue to spin even though mechanically everything has stopped, and you get some nasty forces on the motor shaft in the process. A torque limiter on the sprocket there gives enough slip to keep that from being an issue.

[@roboman2444]

@ray9368 That makes sense. I didn't know you had a mechanism to slip the motor.

[@53rdcards]

Out of curiosity, on the bars that have the teeth, it has always appeared that the milling work on them slots vertically and bolts hold the teeth in place. could you instead mill a slot in the tooth and one in the bar that makes the tooth slot in horizontally, so that the bolts are no longer the sole item taking the hit when it might shear off, but instead its the bar and tooth that are helping?

[@JohnWick-zl5oc]

what about titanium bar do u have any of those? to expensive to use these days?

[@ray9368]

The weapon bar used against capt. shred is titanium. It’s a unique material certainly but it’s advantages don’t really justify the costs for a weapon bar on a heavyweight. I use titanium a lot for armor panels but probably wouldn’t buy another one for a weapon.

[@MarkJacksonGaming]

-- Okay, Ray. Gripe, but a kind constructive one. Would have liked to know the weight of each bar, the length, and most importantly the differences in 'spin-up' time. And also, how much KE is delivered back to Tombstone with each bar. Always been a fan, and been here a bit, so you know I'm saying that constructive. Thumbs up.

[@ray9368]

A more in depth look is certainly possible. And probably worth doing at some point.

[@MarkJacksonGaming]

-- Thank you, Ray. Looking forward (if it happens) to seeing you on BB next time around. You've got a good number of the old guard there, but it is not you. @@ray9368

[@Gatrests14]

Can tombstone use one of morticians blades even though it's smaller

[@ray9368]

The shaft and mount setup is much smaller for Mortician, so short of machining up some odd custom adapters, it's pretty much a no. Interestingly though, I did make a custom hub at one point to use an older heavyweight bar on Mortician, and that did work fairly well. It was easier to machine down a bigger bar for a smaller bot than the other way around :)

[@mikedski9698]

Ray Billings, How Many Weapon Bars That Tombstone Has?

[@ray9368]

Quite a few 😁 I have a lot more than these but this was how many fit on my welding table!

[@mikedski9698]

​@@ray9368Awesome!

[@BotvacProductions469]

@@ray9368 oh my god you have a bar for every single opponent

[@SM-gv9nf]

The real question is, what the eye thing supposed to do?

[@cheese.161]

Selfrigt

[@ray9368]

That was the eye on ‘Stink Eye’ - a heavyweight I took to Robogames last year.

[@SM-gv9nf]

@@ray9368wow thanks for replying! I saw robogames thats why i was wondering, it seemed to be decorative but i wasnt sure.

[@Aaron-n2x2v]

Hi Ray I do t see why you can't have a hybrid approach to the blade? Ar500 for the main blade for it's toughness and s7 caps?

[@SkeptiSquid]

Is it feasible to have differential hardening of a single piece of steel so that the edge is harder while the core is tougher?

[@ruvimsemenyuk8224]

What if you sharpened the edge of a ar500 bar ?

[@ray9368]

If you are hitting aluminum that works great! But if you are hitting the same alloy (which is pretty common now) it just give a weaker edge to bend when it hits. My next idea there is to add some hard facing to the edge and see how well that holds up. Probably make a new video on that whenever I get around to it!

[@Kurse_of_Kall]

@@ray9368 Being able to cut *through* big armored wedges does feel like a necessity these days. Good luck, hope you find the perfect combo for a blade!

[@Xempt_One]

The size of those bars in relation to those sprockets and chain amazes me. Have you ever felt the need to go to a double wide chain and sprocket for extra strength?

[@ray9368]

The chain is 50 heavy industrial chain. Unless it gets directly hit it has held up really well over the years.

[@ManusiaBiasa_17]

My favorit bot.. When tombstone coming back in battlebot world champion ?

[@ray9368]

Next time they film we plan to be there!

[@starry53]

Every weapon bars has a purpose depends on the opponents.

[@panhead537]

If I ever come 2 Battlebots, I'm getting a pit pass so I can C the bot up close!

[@ray9368]

They usually arrange pit tours between filming sessions and you’ll get the chance to see some bots then

[@GiGA-BOB]

2:00 So what happened in the WC IV Bite Force fight? I remember Bite Force hitting the weapon bar and taking about a third of it off, conveniently sending it directly into Tombstone's wheel hub and knocking the wheel out. Was the weapon bar pre-cracked like we saw when Riptide's drum exploded in their fight with Copperhead?

[@panhead537]

Yes. He mentioned it on Twitter. There was a micro crack in the bar that caused it 2 shear off like that.

[@chefboiarby304]

@@panhead537 I believe that sheer was most likely caused by the previous Gruff fight and it was almost a perfectly straight line across the bottom when you see the image.

[@msmith5080]

love these break downs, always find weapon choices interesting, out of interest would you ever consider running an asymetric weapon?

[@ray9368]

The benefit of an asymmetric design is increased bite. So for small diameter weapons, spinning at high rpms, the benefits are absolutely worth the effort. As the weapons get longer and bigger, the advantages start to go away. For Tombstone I routinely see strike marks several inches up the edge of the weapon bars, so I'm getting enough bite. I do admit you can make some unique designs that look cool though. And it is a TV show, so looking cool is a valuable trait. I seriously doubt that *I* will ever run them on a heavyweight, but I can see why others do.

[@msmith5080]

@@ray9368 thanks that makes allot of sense

[@subsnovideos-ur4cn]

​@@ray9368make a single tooth bar to avoid uppercuts from vertical spinners. One less impactor way out means less material for it to grab into. Verts typically have small reach compared to horizontals so not as much risk for the counterweight getting hit.

[@BotvacProductions469]

is asymmetric mean like malice or uppercuts weapon

[@subsnovideos-ur4cn]

@@BotvacProductions469 asymmetric means it's not the same on both sides. Look at endgame, copperhead and witch doctor for examples.

[@tigerrocks503chase8]

Remember that green bar you had for the 2018 but never used because the paint did not hold up? Is that s7 like the blue bar? And what ever happened to that green bar that went unused? Will Tombstone ever use a green bar at some point because a different color would look cool.

[@ray9368]

It's not only "like the blue bar" it is the blue bar :) Literally the same weapon bar, just with different paint on it. As for other colors in the future, I suppose that is possible. Just depends on how the mood strikes me when I decide to paint them!

[@stonefish98]

Some robots take on mocking versions of their opponents appearance. Ribbot with Shades, Ripperoni with plastic forks, etc. Next time Tombstone fights Rotator, it could go with gold paint. Or Hijinx and "Pinkest Pink". Or Overhaul/Skorpios and Miku Blue.

[@maxsteamengine5986]

Will Tombstone be back in BB?

[@MGFDLR]

I heard a rumour/iceberg detail a while ago that Tombstone had a secret unused green blade? Can you confirm or deny such a blade exists? 👀

[@ray9368]

I did have one of the bars painted green one year, and no it didn't get used. But there wasn't anything secret about it - it just got painted a more normal red or blue color and got used the next year.

[@BotvacProductions469]

Are you planning to use that massive black and red bar that you used against endgame again soon? Or does it depend on the match, or are you refraining from using it So that it doesn't end up like the titanium bar?

[@ray9368]

It will always depend on the specific match and what we think matches up against any particular opponent. So yes, it remains an option going forward.

[@BotvacProductions469]

@@ray9368 i thought you said it was an experimental bar

[@ray9368]

This is combat robotics - everything is experimental :)

[@ruvimsemenyuk8224]

What happened to the aluminum bar?

[@ray9368]

The one in the middle that is painted red with black tips is aluminum. There is also an unpainted aluminum bar on the display version of Tombstone that sits in the lobby of the BattleBots Destructathon show in Vegas.

[@ruvimsemenyuk8224]

@@ray9368 ohh ok, thnx for the reply

[@BotvacProductions469]

@@ray9368 is that the same one or did you slightly edit it?

[@icer4925]

I know it would be very brittle, hard to engineer, and Incredibly expensive but other than that is there any reason not to use tungsten as a possible weapon tooth?

[@ray9368]

Tungsten is very hard and dense, but as you have mentioned is on the brittle side and hard to work with. I could see it as viable in certain circumstances though, where its high density might come into play - like as a counter weight on a single tooth weapon system. Tungsten is almost 2.5 times the weight per volume compared to steel!

[@icer4925]

@@ray9368 I didn't think about that. That leads into another question though. Why haven't you guys made a single tooth weapon bar design? Uppercut has more than proved they are incredibly effective. That bot hits like a truck.

[@icer4925]

@@ray9368 For a counterweight lead would probably be a much better alternative. It's much cheaper but it's not quite as dense. Is it even allowed to use lead in a battlebot or is it against the rules

[@ray9368]

Lead is allowed. The only metal I remember being specifically mentioned as illegal is depleted uranium.

[@ray9368]

The single tooth design makes a lot of sense with smaller spin circles, needing higher rpm to achieve a sufficient amount of KE. But it really comes down to how much engagement you can get, and I haven't had a problem with that honestly. If I were to design a shorter spin circle weapon, it would make more sense.

[@BotvacProductions469]

fun fact: youve never lost with the blue blade