RD Vlogs: Ouroboros

[@EeveeFromAlmia]

The reason Frankie is a kitten in the flashback is because it’s from Kris’s perspective and like a sane person, all cats are kittens

[@morphman86]

That ending always gives me chills. He could've done anything, raised him as his own (well, he is), but he choose to give the baby up to the past, to give himself the life he had and regretted, just so humanity still have hope. As long as he keeps doing that every loop of the time, humanity will always survive, even if it's just in that time loop. A never-ending journey, a man forever giving himself life, like a snake biting its own tail.

[@TheAbstruseOne]

Just wanted to say hi and good job! Also, I agree. Kitten Frankie always bugged me too. The only remote rationalization I could come up with was unreliable narrator: Kochanski remembers Frankie as a kitten because she essentially threw away her career for a cat so, when she remembers it, she remembers the cat being far cuter than it was, a widdle baby kitten rather than a fully-grown, pregnant cat. I'd probably have tried to come up with something better, but Series VII and VIII required so much mental gymnastics already to make remotely work I got tired.

[@MagnusSkiptonLLC]

Aw, you missed the "it's an obscene phone call, sir. I think it's for you" bit when they're hauling Kochanski up. That's my favorite line this episode. Anyway, always glad to see a new RD vlog!

[@jaredohlstein7355]

Yeah that was a fantastic line

[@ShamrockParticle]

I forgot about that bit. I agree it was the funniest line in the episode, but the episode being such a mixed bag isn't having me tell people "skip to this one because they're doing a great gag with a mobile phone. Just take no-doz pills for the remaining 28 minutes!" :(

[@BugsMcCoy]

Ahh yes, This iteration of Kochanski! I errrm... 'Admired' her many, many times as a teenager.

[@joshuawilliams7734]

something about Lister talking to basically himself as a baby is both heartfelt and kind of terrifying because it brings to mind the episode of doctor who with Rose Tyler's father and the reapers of time, the idea that looking at or even holding the baby creates a rift in reality where the reapers are forced to come in clean up the mess what's made. Its such a mind-boggling idea I love it. like I said its also heartfelt and Craig Charles' actiing really got me teary-eyed great episode and great retrospective 👍

[@Sledg0matic]

If the different Kochanskis were a result of the Inquisitor, then Chloe Annette's character would be from after the changes that were made to the timeline were reverted, which would mean Clare Grogan was the substitute Kochanski. And it would make sense, because I could see Chloe's Kochanski believing that she's not living up to her own standards, and I could see Clare's Kochanski thinking she's exactly what she was meant to be.

[@EeveeFromAlmia]

That "Women have the agony of childbirth" Line from him always makes me laugh cause like, Lister you gave birth to twins.

[@Cyborcat]

I can't believe I didn't think of that.

[@humantornadah]

FYI part of the reason that they went with Chloe was because Doug had wanted to make the movie at that time and had been repeatedly told that having a sexy actress would help him get funding. I never liked Chloe's portrayal of the character but it was never her fault I think she did the best that she could with it but they just made her so fundamentally unlikable and uptight. Clare grogan's down-to-earth cool girl kochanski made so much more sense of someone that Lister would have been in love with.

[@MaxSpender]

So basically they sold out, but they still didn't get a movie deal. Serves them right. I believe Clare Grogan was available at the time, too. Big mistake & a real shame.

[@JLDReactions]

@humantornadah. Hate to break it to you, but Clare Grogan was a bad actress. I much prefer Chloe. I never found Clare believe in her random 10 second segments.

[@themysteriouscatperson9483]

JLD Reactions I love how you say “hate to break it to you” like that means your opinion is fact, some people can prefer different actors and actresses

[@DavidSmith-cx8dg]

I would have liked Claire Grogan back , she was a bit more compatible with Lister . Chloe grew on me over the series but never really fitted in .

[@fromthecheapseats7126]

They may not have been able to get Clare Grogan, but that doesn’t mean they had to write Kochanski as a harpy.

[@mollymcdade4031]

No offence to the actress, but the series definitely goes down when Rimmer leaves.

[@IllusivePrime]

Tilda Adade Totally agree with you. The only Rimmer left is nano-Rimmer. Our original is still out in the universe as Ace.

[@VonBlade]

When Rimmer leaves or when Rob Grant leaves? Funny how a certain portion of the fanbase pin the blame on Chloe rather than Doug having Moffat's ability to write for women.

[@daftfinstinct2295]

Am I the only person who thinks that a version of the first episode from Kochanski's point of view would be awesome

[@FarelForever]

Hey, when I said that Lister's birth surely involved inbreeding, this is not what I was implying!

[@TheTurnipKing]

I always thought that Ouroborus didn't really make a lot of sense as a concept. Reason being that it's a closed loop. It in no way prevents the human race from going exinct because it's quite specifically limited to one particular time, that of Lister's birth. So, basically, Lister is just talking smeg.

[@jonbilgutay2]

10:10 This is the second time this season that curry and pasta have butted heads. Is there some kind of rivalry between curry and pasta?

[@rodster6campingprepper]

How weird to think that the baby who played young Lister must be a 19 year old now!

[@Cyborcat]

Never got around to mentioning it, but i was totally thinking that while editing this XD

[@sofiamatos8297]

It just isn't the same without Rimmer. He's my favourite, so not having him in the show made it very hard to keep watching.

[@CantDraw-bq6pj]

I agree that Red Dwarf needed more female characters and I can see why they added her into the mix, but it would have been so much better if they'd done something more like Female Holly. She was amazing. Female characters should be characters first and female second, like male characters are characters first and male second. Not every girl has to be a feminist icon, and that's coming from a feminist

[@reloadpsi]

My mother would think you were awesome if she met you. She hates the use of gender as a gimmick or an excuse.

[@AndrewChapman]

12:58 I heard Clare Grogan had become a TV presenter by this time and wasn't doing much acting anymore. Also, I don't know if you've seen the KZbin channel, Red Dwarf Nerd, but there's a video suggesting a theory that Kochanski's change of appearance is to do with the Inquisitor.

[@crazybrit-nasafan]

Got to admit, this is one of my fave episodes. When Kochanski got hit by the crossbow bolt and said B(colourfulmetaphoee) D. I was laughing for about ten mins straight. An interesting factoid, The original actress, Claire Grogan was the lead singer in the 80's band Altered images.

[@shadowacadamy]

Was wondering where these went! Good to have these back after watching the finale of XII

[@shadowacadamy]

I used the On Demand, they provide one week early episodes

[@Awakeandalive1]

*le sigh* Clare Grogan was busy with her music career, that's why she didn't come back. But not only did they opt NOT to hire a Glaswegian. Not only did they opt NOT to hire a Scotswoman. But they didn't even bother to hire someone who resembled Clare Grogan, nor did they ask her to bother faking a Scottish accent.

[@scrunglenut6222]

Another A+ rd vlog! I too think kryten's whining in theory is very funny, but oh god, it's too screechy for me. I also find it funny that lister not only is his own dad, but also used the female equivalent to get himself pregnant, and thus made more exact copies of himself. He treally is singlehandedly keeping the human race alive!

[@Cyborcat]

I notice that a lot of people in the comments section were annoyed with Kryten in this season, so I'm glad I'm not alone there XD Good point about how funny this situation is next to the one in Parallel Universe. There's just so much weirdness around how Lister ends up procreating XD

[@Jayfive276]

9:21- Here's the thing - Kryten didn't kill the crew in the Series 2 episode. Or at very least it's not confirmed. The assumption is they died of their crash injuries or they simply died of old age just under 3 million years ago. HOWEVER in the RD books Kryten does cause the crash by...cleaning the navigation computers. As in with soap and water. This is an almighty retcon of the scale of giving Lister and Kochanski a relationship upgrade. I hope you cover the RD books somewhere along the line - there's so much good stuff in there and they are a LOT darker than the show. E.g. the 'Everybody's dead Dave' bit ends with Lister going mad with grief and loneliness and being on the verge of suicide before Holly brings Rimmer online.

[@avery9627]

The voice is a bit much and a few lines didn’t work but seeing how Lister encouraged Krytens free will his concern kinda makes sense.

[@dennett316]

Kryten becomes a major pain in the ass when Kochanski arrives. Next episode is really bad with him, he's insufferable in that episode.

[@jonharrison9222]

He’s supposed to be.

[@DigiRangerScott]

11:53 Ooh this part makes me think of Della Duck on DuckTales trying to get off the moon and having a similar miss

[@Carewolf]

If he is half Katchanski and has a kid with Katchanski, that kid would be 3/4 Katchanski. By induction and the geometric series, he should a male clone of Katchanski..

[@Myndir]

I think that the main problem is where the Y chromosome came from. Women don't have those handy...

[@Carewolf]

Well, that one has to be "his" own, from the induction starting condition, the first lister who had a different background.

[@ZipplyZane]

+Myndir A Y chromosome is basically an X that's lost its tail. The bigger question is how it happened in the other universe.

[@andrewdemetrius8090]

Katchansky was the Red Dwarf equivalent of Scrappy Doo in Scooby Doo!

[@morphman86]

About Chloe Annet as Kochanski... I think that was just to keep the tradition of Red Dwarf going. The only other character that started as a one-off side character for a single episode was Kryten, and the same thing happened there, actors got changed between the one-off and the permanent characters. I think that was why they referenced the episode Kryten in this episode, just to hammer that point in. Kind of like how Fresh Prince did it with Aunt Viv.

[@optimisticwhovian1726]

I don't think they wanted Clare Grogan back actually but I could be wrong, I recall Craig implying in those interviews though that they didn't get Claire back cos they felt she wasn't a good enough actress to be taking on the role full time since Clare was only a part time actress (She was originally a pop singer in the early 80s fronting a Scottish band called Altered Images) whereas Chloe Anette was a full time actress. Usually all the nerd boys don't like her cos they cant relate to her obviously which is why she causes controversy and she was essentially playing straight man to the guys being their usual idiotic selves but she isn't spose to be replacing Rimmer, considering Barrie still appears on and off in this series I duno why he left frankly he just came back again in series 8 anyway so the whole send off they gave him was undercut.

[@wambutu7679]

I saw a video that explained the difference between the actresses perfectly. The first one was the one who got a second chance when the first one failed after meeting The Inquisitor. When The Inquisitor died the original came back even though from the series perspective she was second. Got the guys came up with a pretty damn cool Theory Actually.

[@Torthrodhel]

Probably a daft notion, but I do wonder if maybe they used a kitten because of something mundane like not being able to take a full-sized cat out of an inside pocket.

[@Cyborcat]

That's a thought. He could have had the cat hidden in his luggage, tho.

[@TheVargr]

Cyborcat you forget that Frankenstein the Holy mother was the Virgin birth! Cat said so in season 1 :D But yea in all seriousness it was a little silly to use a kitten. There is two versions of this episode just like Tikka to Ride, but I felt the extended version was better in this episode with scenes being extended whilst not adding completely new scenes.

[@benmiller3252]

Red Dwarf was having a very difficult time during its seventh season. There were some Production problems, Rob Grant left after six series, Chris Barrie became burnt out and decided to focus on doing the seventh season of the Brittas empire and Craig Charles was facing accusations of sexual assault I believe.

[@jonharrison9222]

All of which happened prior to filming.

[@Wabajck]

Personally I feel this is when the show made its official push to be more of a drama

[@willadeefriesland5107]

No sweat on 'kitten' Frankenstein... remembering that it's a different actress playing Kochanski... this is a different dimension so Frankenstein could have her 'rendezvous' with the "black Tom on Titan' at six months old... the SECOND time Red Dwarf stops there. Cats DO wander...

[@TheITinFIT]

Ugh, Kochanski. This is the point in the series where I jump the gun to Season X. I’m sorry but if she were actually funny or at the very least a likable character, I wouldn’t have a problem. But she’s a cold snob who does nothing for me. I don’t blame the actress for this one bit though, she did her best with what she was given and tried to keep up with the cast’s already established rapport. I just wish having the writers bringing back Kochanski as a substitute for Rimmer wasn’t such a wasted opportunity. Also the gag with Kryten acting jealous was funny once, not so much all the other times until she’s gone.

[@Cyborcat]

I don't totally hate her--I think she has her moments--but you do hit on what I don't like about her.

[@franohmsford7548]

Changing Kochanski's character so much was really a bad idea but right from the off Chloe Annet was wrong for the role - She didn't look anything like Claire Grogan, Couldn't do the accent and was way too posh.

[@markwalsh2992]

TheITinFIT I agree. I thought that character was awful! Without Rob Grant. This series went really down!

[@dwibs93]

This episode begins a double whammy and is mostly why VII is my least favourite series. Ouroboros fails as drama and Duct Soup painfully fails as comedy.

[@VampireNewl]

I always felt like Kochanski fell a bit flat, it seems like they remade her into someone posh to contrast Lister but then never really seem to have much on an idea what to do with the character.

[@mrcritical6751]

Kotchanski the most controversial element of Red Dwarf

[@Cyborcat]

Sometimes, I'm not even sure how *I* feel about her, so I can believe that the fan base is very divided =P

[@mrcritical6751]

I like to think of her as a Inquisitor replacement that's how I get around the personality and actor differences

[@Arrinao]

Couldn't that feel stem from the fact that the actress is actually pretty sympathetic? That's the case for me. I like Chloe Annett but this was a terrible miscast. Kochanski for all intents and purposes should have never been made a part of the crew. The basic problem of the guys on the ship always stemmed from the absence of chicks.

[@jonharrison9222]

@@Cyborcat Kochanski is intelligent and capable and the boys…not so much. I don’t fault the character or the actress. But there’s a reason the knights don’t find the holy grail until the very end.

[@fromthecheapseats7126]

@@Cyborcat I think the problem with Kochanski is that she’s presented as the straight (wo)man, but is too bratty to live up to it, while also being nowhere near as funny as Rimmer. If they wanted a straight man, they should have gone with Captain Hollister, who had already functioned in that capacity in his past interactions with Rimmer & Lister. If they wanted a woman, the easiest way to do that would have been to bring back female Holly with a corporeal form, problem a hologram. Another option would be to make Yvonne McGruder a regular cast member. What we know of her (a boxing champion who had suffered concussions that left her seriously confused) would have provided a better baseline for comedy than Kochanski. Plus, it would be hilariously ironic if Rimmer’s old girlfriend returned after Rimmer left.

[@Shaunography]

I like your intro better than the actual show intros lol

[@mcdent139]

Re: Frankenstein being too young here: Frankenstein was adopted on Mimas, but Lister says the father was a big black Tom on Titan. He must have taken her with him on another shore leave.

[@MichaelBrookham]

I felt pretty much the same way you did about this. I did not like Kryten's whiny voice -- not in this one and not in the other ones. I find that this version of Kochanski is better because she is younger and cuter. I do find her, however, very snippy, arrogant, and a little less like Rimmer. In reference to Tim, her boyfriend, being a catering officer -- the first episode of Red Dwarf identified Olaf Peterson as catering officer. However, Kochanski says that Tim was a chef, so there is probably a difference. I was not thrilled with Ouroboros, but I did like a few parts. The parts that included Rimmer were nice but very short.

[@mrdoctorgilmore]

So if they were able to use the time drive to get back to earth in listers time, why didn't lister stay?

[@Cyborcat]

After "Tikka to Ride", they decided that going back in time was a bad idea. Obviously they made an exception here but that was to keep an already existing time loop running. If they stayed, they could have ended up breaking history again.

[@scottedwards2618]

Thanks Cyborcat :)

[@Mykalwane]

The whole kitty thing I always thought as alternate universe Kat comes about a different way with different universe rules

[@MsCreepyChan]

How can you find Krytens "Mother Hen" voice grating? It's one of the funniest things in season 7.

[@MatthewsStopMotions]

It’s bloody hilarious

[@georgeowain]

I was watching this episode with my uncle once, and as soon as the woman at 1:00 said "I wonder what will become of him? Something terrible no doubt." My uncle responded "Likely face accusations of rape,". We all now what he was referring too.

[@ShamrockParticle]

Series 7's first 2 episodes are decent but this is where the shark is jumped (or surfed on by Ace). On recent rewatch I liked it more than 24 years ago, back when I was helping design the antigrav system needed to build Stonehenge... Anyway, Oroborous and Lister's corny philosophical epic origin has a Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy vibe to it. A shame a couple episodes in later series refer to this episode because RD7-9 are by far the least effective of the show's entire run. :(But RD did rebound and that's worth it.)

[@Nige031077]

I do love the panties off of Cloe, but I can't say that I am lovin the hair style in the red outfit (even though it is my favourite colour) opposed to the blue outfit which is way better than the grey of the original RD of series one. ☺

[@shepherd8171]

Are we all going to ignore the fact that lister was keeping a kitten in his jacket

[@ShamrockParticle]

"Anyway, he's going to come up again" = pun? :)

[@Cyborcat]

Not intentionally XD

[@milannovotny2085]

Speaking of continuity, it also bothers me that they changed the story so that Lister and Kochanski were dating (also in the book). I prefer the earlier version where he never told her about his feelings.

[@MoreRubberyThanTurgid]

.... And here endeth Red Dwarf as a decent sitcom, barring little bits here and there, until Red Dwarf X. The removal of Rimmer and advent of Kochanski as a regular character changes the dynamic so significantly it's almost unwatchable in many places. Even when Rimmer returns in XIII, Kochanski is irritating and it was a mistake to bring back the entire crew and imprison the central cast on the refound/rebuilt Small Rouge One. Great job with these vlogs, very insightful.

[@OrijitKar]

Did you notice the dreadlocks on baby Lister in the box? 😂

[@Cyborcat]

Oh shit, I don't think I ever did XD

[@jackmehoffe9372]

Still loving this Parthinogenesis (sic) That's how the cat race began madam. I may have had a cider or 8

[@PartigradeCannon]

So... they can just go back in time to wherever and whenever they want? Why don't they just transport themselves back to Red Dwarf?

[@georgeowain]

If you want to see Actual British bad taste humour regarding a cat and a microwave. Check out The Hale and Pace sketch cat microwave.

[@Cyborcat]

I think I'll pass =P

[@georgeowain]

@@Cyborcat In that case I wont recommend the Tortoise sketch.

[@georgeowain]

@@Cyborcathow about The Hale and Pace sketch; The Guide Cat.

[@filmunion8194]

what does sundry mean?

[@Cyborcat]

Context?

[@liger-9990]

Maybe Lister snuggled Frankenstein on as a kitten and then she became pregnant at a later date on a different planet leave.

[@JamesPlaysGames95]

Kochanski. i felt the writers didnt know what to do with her. it's very unfortunate her role was just "token girl who has common sense".

[@baddrivers4932]

thumbsUP!

[@Nehelenia3000]

S7 is definitely the worst season of Red Dwarf and this is where it all starts to go seriously downhill. I don't hate kochanski but i don't care for her either, adding her really messed up the chemistry between the characters and Kryten's reaction to her is awful. Don't care for s8 as well for the same reasons. When I rewatch Red Dwarf I skip everything after the Ace episode and pick up with Back to Earth.

[@BathoryQueen]

Fun fact Doug hated the original actress so recast her since at this point Rob left and he had full creative, this is also why the continuity is all over the place.

[@fromthecheapseats7126]

That might also explain why he wrote Kochanski so differently.

[@The_Mighty_Fiction]

So we're just going to forget that Lister spends the rest of the series knowingly crushin' on his mother? You'd think that'd be enough to put him off her but nope. I mean....euurrgh. 🤢

[@dwibs93]

Oh god I didn’t realise that till just now

[@The_Mighty_Fiction]

@@dwibs93 A further thought occurs; if Alt-Lister died before Kochanski gave birth to him, then how is he... well, how is he?

[@alex-xz2dm]

the 1998 v

[@Cyborcat]

Stop abbreviating everything. I don't even know what you're trying to say in most of your comments.

[@fromthecheapseats7126]

They may not have been able to get Clare Grogan, but that’s no reason to change how they wrote Kochanski and make her into a harpy. It’s especially maddening since we could’ve had Olaf Peterson or Captain Hollister.

[@franohmsford7548]

A bit unfair to say that she had "more depth" when of course she had "more depth", That tends to happen when you have an entire episode dedicated to giving you that depth not to mention becoming a main character for the next two seasons as compared to having maybe 2 lines in episode 1 of the show then being brought back for one more scene in season 2. I could never take to Chloe Annett - She was just wrong for the role, I didn't like the new characterisation and I especially hate that she somehow lost her accent! Why they couldn't get another Scottish actress I have no idea!

[@Cyborcat]

It doesn't have to be fair. I was contrasting the two characters with each other and talking about their respective strengths and weaknesses. The weakness of the first is that they didn't do much with her so there isn't as much to go on. It's not a jab at the actress or anything.

[@fat1fared]

This episode, like all of the series including Kochanshi, suffered from the problem that the show was heavily influenced by men from a certain time period, who had no idea how to write women. You can tell they seemed to really want her to be a strong and more progressive character than most portals of women at the time, but it still feels extremely dated and at times very uncomfortable. This makes the whole series quite awkward, and not in a funny way.

[@famalam943]

Really didn’t like the recast of KK. Nothing against the actress herself but it’s the casting and it’s a purely British gripe about class. Lister is very working class, and the Original Grogan KK was more working class but high achiever stock, you could see them having a connection even if it was just simply flirty one from the begging. The new Annett KK is incredibly middle class. As in, born into middle class by middle class parents vibes. They just don’t seem compatible at all. This is a guy who feels like a traitor going to a wine bar, who went on an entire monologue about middle class banality when he thought KK got married to the other dude in season 2. Not saying these relationships don’t happen but not this portrayal at least, it doesn’t fit either of them. Another thought is it could simple just be the actors. There’s zero chemistry between Charles & Annett where as Grogan & Charles has more in their 10 seconds of screen time in the first episode. (Just going through your reviews again while watching random episodes of the show, you really have the monopoly of dwarf reviews on KZbin lol)

[@-MrFozzy-]

I truly….TRULY dislike Christine….casting, writing, accent, stories, jokes, acting, portrayal, clothes…..inclusion in the show It drives the whole tone and quality right off a cliff. It’s so awful I’m honestly surprised it wasn’t a show canceller/killer

[@AndrewChapman]

But to her defence, she did try, she really did try to fit in. She even tried learning what 'off-side' was lol

[@Hewylewis]

I hate series 7 for what they did to Kryton's character. SO unlikable!

[@TheGhostOfAGamer]

The reason why you think the jokes in this episode fall flat is you're American and British humour is so extremely dry and hard. Maybe I am wrong.

[@Cyborcat]

The "you don't get British humor" argument MIGHT make sense if I didn't like an entire series. But ONE episode of a series where I'm 6.5 seasons into it and this is the first time I've made that complaint?

[@TheGhostOfAGamer]

I didn't say anything about you not liking an entire series stuff, but there are still a lot of British humour that may float passed you that you may not get... I do suggest a show called Black Books, that you may like and would help with how Kryt's way of acting in this episode. :)

[@Cyborcat]

I know you didn't--I was saying that argument would make more sense if we were talking about an entire series instead of one episode. Oh well, fair point about Kryten, tho it's not so much the way he acts in general (in this episode anyway) but the voice he's doing. (and sorry if I came across a little defensive--I've had a couple of brits leave some pretty rude comments fairly recently and it's got my feckles up a little =P)

[@TheGhostOfAGamer]

No worries, just saying what I said, just encase. Like I said, Black Books is a way to understand how Kryt acts and speaks in the scene, though Black Books is so much more dry and hard to swallow, but once you dig your claws into it, the easier it is to grasp. Plus some of us Brits are so much so like how you Americans are with the 4th of July. :P

[@Torthrodhel]

I dunno, I'm British and I've never got the whole "Americans don't get British humour" thing, seems a bit of a non-reason to me. Would totally second your recommendation of Black Books, though.

[@Evemeister12]

Red dwarf went full woke. Everyone knows you never go full woke

[@MatthewsStopMotions]

Lol what? How tf did it go “full woke?!