Reacting to Reddit's WORST DM Advice (Part 2) - Tabletop Tavern Tips

[@oliviabean8264]

A way I've seen nat 20's handled that I like is to simply treat a 20 as always giving the best POSSIBLE result. For example someone trying to persuade a king to give up their throne to them still wont succeed, but they might instead make the king laugh really hard and endear themselves to him.

[@lisliaer7999]

I usually use the nat 20 always succeeds rule, with a caveat. If I think the task is impossible, a nat 20 the task fails successfully. Level one character wants to jump a 30foot gap even after advise not to. Rolls a nat 20, they trip and foot gets caught keeping them suspended from the edge.

[@rosascreativeworks5403]

LOL, thats great! Love it.

[@AnubisXKanto]

As a Newbie DM, I always try to prepare a good amount of content that gives my session a solid outline and note down, which NPCs are essential for the plot. Once I've done that and prepared the statblocks for encounters or the answer for riddles I wanna use, I essentially let my players have free reign and see, how I can bend my story ideas for the session to fit how my players tackle the situations they are thrown in. A quick example: In a One-shot, I had them stuck in a tavern that had a sealed door. The Insignia to unseal the door was in a closed off room upstairs. One of the open rooms in the upstairs area hat a hint that they had to barter for the key to the closed room with a patron of the inn. One player found the hint, but forgot about it. Earlier on, they also found out that, when they destroyed walls, the walls would quickly reform again. Now, the player who found the note forgot to mention it to the party and the party was looking to open the closed door with Thieves' tools. Bad rolls. The fighter of the group than decided to break the door down so I decided, that once the door broke down for a second, a NPC that should've just being asleep in the room, was awake running towards the door trying to throw the party something. But the door reformed to quickly. But that's when the player with the hint remembered: "Hey, there was something about that patron downstairs someone said we have to barter with. It was a hell off a session with a bunch of Eldritch Horror elements mixed into it.

[@hayhay509]

the "the dm isn't allowed to have fun" and "always say yes" 100% contributed to my first game as a DM failing. It was the advise i got/found. i'm glad that there are more people pushing for saying no and the DM's fun.

[@Leshantra]

"the dm isn't allowed to have fun" That is BY FAR the most stupid advise I have heard or read. If you aren't allowed to have fun, why "play" in the first place?

[@TheZMage]

I wanna say it was Drake that had my favorite response to the natural 20 ruling: a natural 20 persuasion check on “yo, king, give me your crown and step down” is the king takes it as a joke and doesn’t have you executed on the spot

[@davidspring4003]

Worst DM advice I ever heard: "it's the DM's job to make the character want to join the party. Otherwise, it's railroading!"

[@CooperAATE]

"Shower your players with magic items so they stay interested in the game."

[@rosascreativeworks5403]

Yep, that'd be bad advice.... I don't like the monty-haul campaigns.

[@tsifirakiehl4250]

My policy on in-game consequences is that they can work, but only as a logical progression of the events that precede them. If a PC, say, murders an NPC, then it makes sense that the victim’s loved ones will be hostile toward that PC. Of course, if the player makes a habit of murderhoboing in a story-focused game, or kills an NPC the party’s goal is to protect, or something like that, then of course you should talk to them out of game and deal with the problem, but if the players do a thing in-game, the game world should respond to that.

[@damienhailey118]

I kinda wanna push back on that too. The first response to bad in-character activity should also be in-game because it's an act of good faith when you do it as *natural consequences.* If/when that fails should be when you pull them aside and try to talk it out.

[@cheesedemon88]

I always mean “the players will fuck up your game” as more of an endearment of my players and their creativity, but I guess I can see why people might find that frightening if they don’t have the full context

[@gavinbarnes4701]

If your party is about to die send in an overpowered dmpc to kill all the bad guys.

[@rosascreativeworks5403]

I had a DM that did that (too often) and there was nothing more underwhelming than having to be rescued by the DM other than a TPK. Frankly, it sucked. The only better idea I think might be to have the party captured instead and imprisoned... then that can lead to a whole new adventure trying to escape. But even that's hard to do. Dunno. It is a good question though, what to do when you're on the brink of a TPK. Dunno.

[@spoonyluv19]

You know it's a serious video when Chrispy shows his actual face.

[@eloidasarmi6815]

Or it's AD xd

[@Mordaedil]

My stipulation on the nat 20 rule is that rolling a natural 20 gives them the best possible result that they could reasonably expect, which isn't always a success and I usually ask them a follow-up question similar to Matt Mercers "how do you wanna do this" I ask "how do you want to go about this?" and then I tell them how it plays out for them. If they had no hope of succeeding, it will never kill them, but it could end up with the fates intervening to allow them the best outcome, which means if they were trying an impossible jump, they trip and fall prone and then get to see why that would be a bad idea as a dragon flies by and they realize they'd be eaten or something like that. Albeit for most cases I will say to the player after they state their desire "you conclude that this endevour is beyond you, but you may attempt it anyway" and "are you sure?" And if they still say yes, "I have given you your warning, your life depends on the roll of your dice. Go ahead." The last bit is of course an exaggeration, but I have had some suicidal players trying their luck here.

[@rosascreativeworks5403]

Yep, exactly.

[@curtisfranzen986]

Winging it. I would like to point out the perfect example of when the DM was winging it correctly. The tale of everyone's favorite crafty smith, Uughie.

[@TaoScribble]

I want an Uughie plushie to put on my desk. I'll make him an anvil and everything.

[@curtisfranzen986]

@@TaoScribble Unfortunately, I can only "like" your comment once. And I agree about the plushie! LOL!

[@viperblitz11]

My opinion on the natural 20 rule is one I share with the DM. If the success someone wants isn't possible, flavor it as an unexpected victory that still contributes to the goal. For example, last session my party was interrogating a grunt for information on one of the BBEGs (a disgraced paladin who was once a PC), and he died from a curse after spitting out half his first name ("Ty"). Because everyone at the table knew who it was OOC, I couldn't help but ask if I can roll to remember seeing or hearing a name like that on wanted posters or guild bounties, and sure enough I rolled a 20. But instead of making up a lore dump about me seeing a bounty some years ago with the guy's name and face, the DM instead tells me, "You remember talking to plenty of people with a name like that. A half-orc drinking buddy named Tynak. A lizardman named Tynakith that you once shared a carriage with. A human cleric named Tynor, who wore a holy symbol that looked much like the tattoo on this grunt's body - though this one is bloody and profane." We didn't get a name, but we did manage to deduce that our villain must have a personal vendetta with one of the gods if he's willing to tattoo a defiled holy symbol on his lackeys. The act of using the 20 to slightly unravel the mystery for our characters was more engaging than a lore dump confirming what we already knew.

[@AmonDevilman]

This hits close to home. My campaign crashed and burned for a lot of in and out of game issues, but one of them was the reason why I set up a rule to not use manuals that came out after the campaign started for a while. I had this power player that started to use Tasha's stuff despite it being brand new and I hadn't read all of it and tried to convince everyone in the party to use it and acted passive-aggressive and sometimes just dickish when he was told that. Mostly stuff like "we wouldn't have this problem if we used Tasha, just saying."

[@cthulhupolar60]

Artificier + Hollow Warforged = Mecha Pilot

[@indiagale7918]

Always glad to be here!

[@dentistdamsel1345]

Crispy's face puts me in granny mode. I want to give him candy and tell him what a handsome young man he is

[@lanir9543]

Consequences - I watched a DM try to "fix" a problem player. While the player was being a nuisance and whining about wanting stronger magic items, the DM had a shopkeeper sell the PC an amazing sword but it took all their gold to do it. Later that day, the sword disappeared: it was an illusion. Let's just say this didn't solve the problem. nat 20 autosuccess - Dice are there to help the DM describe what is possible in the game. This is why I tell people they can't roll for everything. Otherwise you may as well skip the small potatoes and roll for your chance to be a greater deity in the campaign. DM's aren't supposed to have fun - This sort of player wants a computer RPG then. Have fun with that, they're sometimes a blast but don't expect me to put up with that attitude plus run a game for you. :)

[@andrewburgess9578]

a lot of sense packed in here, will be back for more

[@kcollier2192]

Hmm- I imagine the worst advice would be along the lines of 'Maybe this game isn't for you- try something else.'

[@dragonking184]

The last two pieces of advice suffer from people who are experienced at it, not actually knowing or realizing what makes those pieces of advice work. Nat 20s always succeed: This rule comes with a caveat that you don't allow just any roll to be made. Hell, one of my house rules is that you don't roll until I give the okay. And man, it's just way more respectful to everyone's time if you just say no (either above or in game) than have the player go through the motions thinking they'll be able to succeed only to crush their dreams. Plus...you as the DM have easy access to all of your PCs character sheets, meaning that you KNOW without a doubt whether or not they have a chance of succeeding. Now I've heard some tables that say somethings can only be done through magical assistance (by this I assume they mean guidance and/or bardic inspiration or just magic in general) and that's fine. Just let your players know before that roll happens that this is something that is gonna require magical aid. Just wing it: What people don't understand is that ironically, the more you prepare correctly** the better you'll be able to wing it. It takes a LOT of charisma to truly pull off an off the cuff no prep session. And even then, typically it's because that DM knows their world so much that they can quite literally draw an adventure from thin air and place it anywhere and it works. **there are right and wrong ways to prepare for a session, it all depends on the type of campaign you want to run. More lively or open world campaigns require more general prep, as in knowing the feel of a town rather than its individuals. Whereas a more bottleneck or linear campaign allow for more detailed preparation such as

[@Zomburai45]

I always talk about the fact that the DM is god as a warning against DM power tripping rather than an enabling of it. Oh, you railroaded your players? TPK'd the party? Who cares, you're God, where's the challenge in that? Whoopdie shit, you did the easy thing.

[@gregorhodson3741]

Honestly, the typical Abrahamic framing of God as a benevolent figure who allows the existence of evil and injustice as a consequence of free will and as a test isn't a bad attitude for a DM. Like God, the DM is theoretically omnipotent but avoids using excessive power, as while they may have created the world, they created it to be inhabited by others with agency of their own. If you're power tripping as the DM, you'd make a very bad god.

[@roycemitchell1692]

“When you’re bored with the game. Its time for a TPK”. Had a DM do this to me my third game ever. He was bored with what the group was doing so he made us fight a Homebrew Kraken. I still didn’t even understand what my character could do and he was dead because the DM got bored with his own campaign. This is part if a much bigger and annoying story that I may tell one day.

[@HEZAKIAL]

I tell my players that it is my job to try to say yes to what they want to do, and it's their job to try to make me say no. I've got good players though, so this makes them think outside the box a bit more. Your mileage may vary.

[@sophiescott143]

8:31 Word. Matt Colville FTW

[@facedman8699]

Sometimes when I run a game, people will just roll for something without asking. Most of the time that's fine (they say they want to sneak and they immediately roll stealth) but sometimes times they'll just roll when something is impossible (rolling to stealth when someone is looking right at them) and after they roll high I gotta explain that it's impossible or it doesn't work that way and sometimes they just get upset. An example is when I was running cyberpunk RED and someone tried to convince a cyberpsycho (someone who has gone completely insane from installing too many cybernetics) to release them from captivity because of an agreement they didn't even agree too. After rolling when I didn't say they could roll, they got above 25 and I had to explain him that saying "come on dude just let us go" wasn't going to cut it. Instead of trying some other way of getting out of captivity, he decided to complain in and out of game for 10-15 minutes while we were trying to play. Now I must admit that the example was from the worst player i've had the pleasure of dealing with (not like they worst ever, just the worst i've encountered), but you get the point.

[@roadwarrior6530]

I always just listened to these videos at work. Never thought Crispy was Asian 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@jingo4754]

If this is part 2, can we get a link to part 1? I can't find it well on my mobile @.@

[@NotMyRealName6]

A nat 20 should be as _realistic_ a success as possible in the situation. That means it's possible to still fail to do something your character isn't capable of doing or that makes no logical sense. For instance, a nat 20 on persuasion that the player is the true king and there's an impostor on the throne would in my campaign result in the king being amused, but nothing else. And a nat 1 I'd say would be the most realistic failure possible in the situation, with whether or not it's comical depending on the mood of the campaign.

[@shawnwolf5961]

On rolling for tasks that are impossible, I let them. But I also use that roll as a sliding scale for how terribly they fail. A nat 20 on an impossible roll is essentially saying you don't get the worst possible result, which could potentially be death depending on what the player is trying to do. Or it may guage just how badly that dragon the bard is trying to seduce, reacts to the attempt.

[@DungeonDragon18]

My thought on natural 20s is that it's the best possible result in the situation. If the task is impossible, let them roll, and then if they roll a nat 20 reward them in a different way. For example the classic example of asking the king to give the party his kingdom. The king's never going to do that, but maybe on a natural 20 he takes it as a very funny joke, and warms up to the party and has a lower DC for subsequent reasonable requests.

[@coda821]

In game consequences that resemble IRL consequences, seem to make sense to me. Discussion would probably be effective too.

[@MathewPatrick]

I honestly can't think of any bad DM advice that didn't come up in the video, but in game consequences for behavior is probably the worst. Communicate with your friends. I won't say it's not hard because sometimes it is, but no relationship can survive without it. Oh, and "its the DM's job to kill the party. It's meant to be hard." I haven't herd it as advice but it's a common trend in horror story's.

[@HoplooWare]

Honestly though as much as just winging a game is inadvisable, spending as much if not more time preparing for a game than you do playing said game (Unless it includes things like painting minis, making handouts, craft stuff, etc) can be very bad if not worse, as it can lead to burnout, frustration that the game didn't go your way, or just flat out not being able to make prep due to life responsibilities. All you need to run a game are one or two pages of notes, and just a list of things you can drop on the players.

[@Rurumeto]

My goal is to see myself in one of these

[@stepgamerdad]

The worst DM advice I've ever heard spoken is a variation on the IG consequences for OOG problems, but imo much more malicious: "The best way for new players to learn the game mechanics and their character's abilities is to punish them for not knowing them by heart. It helps them remember what they did wrong and how to avoid it in the future."

[@rosascreativeworks5403]

Yeah, that sounds terrible.

[@zionich]

DM = Games Operation Director or GOD

[@overdrivexelerate]

I know an Autumn Orange fan when I hear one 👀

[@wyld3r]

Regarding in game consequences, i believe in a balance of consequences that make sense and talking it out out of game. At that point, its no ones fault but the player themself if they arn't having fun. Gee i wonder why O.o. Making the items randomly cursed, does not make sense. But guards wanting to arrest a murderhobo stealing player, DOES make sense. From personal experience, Making the problem player "do it to themselves" is the best lol They cant blame ANYONE BUT themselves. Watching them realize what they've done is hilarious to behold.

[@pepekovallin]

Saying a GM's fun isn't as important as the player's fun is like saying a game developer shouldn't work only on projects that they like

[@LondrieGirl]

"Never start in a tavern."

[@Meanlucario]

No idea why I decided to make this comment over two weeks after this video was uploaded, a video I already watched. I blame the sleep depravity. In-game consequences for out-of-game decisions: 99% of the time trying to solve the problem indirectly only makes a bad situation worst. People can't fix a problem they are unaware of, and actual problem players will use this to justify their actions, claiming they are being the victim of an abusive DM. They aren't entirely wrong... I think people are looking at the catharsis of "beating" the player and not the consequences of such actions. Funny how that works Screw over your players: If your players are actively trying to "screw you over," than they aren't good players. Might also be some DM railroading if all the players are doing in going to places the DM didn't plan or use their tools to open door or cross paths they are meant to access later. The DM and players are part of the same group, and both parties need to work together for everyone's fun. You are God: I have power tripped as a DM in my middle/high school days, but that's with family and a friend, and there was never a session 2 when I DM'ed. Even then I never said I was God or anything of the kind. While technically true, most good DMs know that playing God is a short buzz at best, one that leaves with the players. Allow all characters: Other than needing more books and tabs to keep track of, some things the DM will have a hard time handling, especially newer DMs. Keeping things simple helps and most players understand that. The DM should be willing to expand after awhile, but restrictions still help, like no homebrew they didn't approve of or no evil characters/characters who work against the party. The DM needs to be comfortable with your characters just as much as you are. Ignore the DMG: That one is one of the dumbest things. I think these people don't understand the the rules aren't ironclad and can be ignored or changed for the group's enjoyment. The book itself even says that the rules serve the group, not the other way around. The ones acting like the solutions they are proposing aren't copied from the DMG I think just want to steal the advice to look smarter than they actually are. Always say yes: The problem player enabler advice. No other way to put this, but say no when needed. If a player is trying to disrupt the game and/or ruin the enjoyment of others, stop them. Matt Mercer doesn't need to do that because his group are professionals and mature adults. Most DMs and players don't get that luxury, and have to understand that not all players (or DMs) have the enjoyment of everyone involved on their priority list. DMs shouldn't have fun: And people wonder why no one wants to DM. The DM is also part of the group, and should have fun just as much as everyone else there. It should be the whole point of playing D&D. I love the joke CritCrab and Drake made about the player who is so angry and hateful that their DM was enjoying the session as well. Nat 20: Outside of the rules saying this only applies to combat, it's something that is often abused by players. The classic "I am the king now with a nat 20" is a great example of that. Such players also hate the nat 1 meaning auto failure, because they only want the good element of random chance. Personally, I rather the nat 1 and 20 be combat only, since I've been screwed over by nat 1s all too often. Just wing it: Never go in without a plan. Players rarely go through with it (like most plans people aren't in on), but you need to have a good idea about the options your players have, and what can/will happen depending on their actions. Otherwise it becomes a mess very quickly.

[@kassandrapatrick9064]

Can you drop a Part 1 link in the description? Even if it's not the exact same thing, I would love to watch part 1, or rewatch part 1, if I've already seen it.

[@eloidasarmi6815]

I absolutely in for this "don't allow to roll for something impossible" but with a caveat for your caveat. If my player tries to convince the king to give up his crown - I will ask a few times if they're certain in their decision. If they are still on board with their idea of doing something impossible they can face consequences. Like tell me, do you think the king will not be offended with such a "joke" xd

[@macro3751]

just real quick i think the whole "DM is god" thing can be kinda true but in the sense of a someone like the watcher from Marvel, like yeah you're a god, but you're not really in full control of the story, if anything, you have more fun when you don't interfere too much you're more a story teller deity than you are a "do as i say or face the consequences" deity well, if you're a good DM that is

[@Wolfen5207]

I know one of my players is going to be a problem player because he thinks that just because I was there when he discussed his backstory with another person, he doesn’t need to write it down in a place that I can see it. When I told him he needs to get his backstory in righting, he copy and pasted the first chapter of the Communist Manifesto. He also doesn’t take a lot of things seriously. I just don’t want to kick him before the actual campaign starts because he’s a good friend and has been involved in me making my home brew setting from very early on.

[@luisspragg1546]

For me nat 20s succeed to a point for example in combat if the ac is higher than 20 it isn't an auto success and the same with later game checks as i want the players to feel a sense of challenge

[@ZedMazaus480]

Top 10 things not to discipline problem players with: 10] thrown hot french pastries 9] Wearing of maid outfits [this often back fires] 8] Give dameaning nicknames 7[ forcing them to use waited dice that almost always roll 1s 6] making them eat super spicy foods [also tends to fails on occation] 5] woopie cushions [gets old] 4] exploding woopie cushions [ less funny than you think] 3] exploding dice [why did you think this was any better than number 4] 2] Mace [pepper spray or midevil weapon] 1] Nuclear weapons [ FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS NERDY WHY??!!!]

[@cobaltcouatl1476]

If you have a bit of idea block as a DM, why not just wipe the slate clean and do a TPK?

[@masterninjamt6497]

damn i got here REALLY early

[@neckermangames5872]

Same

[@hydeme]

That is a nice shirt

[@Felzorful]

Crispy is right if you allow a roll there suide be chance at succes. If there is none there suide be no rolls

[@carsonsugden9807]

Hot take, don't play dnd with tiny kids in the room. They need their parents and 3 hours, even with breaks, will not be enough for the kids. I've tried for years to dm for people with kids in the room and it just doesn't work. No fun. Go focus on your kids, be a good parent.

[@rosascreativeworks5403]

Yeah, that sounds like a disaster. 😬

[@Jacob_Lovelace]

Yo where's part 1?

[@gailburnette]

Good bad tips

[@JacobL228]

Camera angle is a little low here; it cuts off the top of your head.

[@nukerwolf7788]

But I am a god in my world. And my players will have to save me