Are Christian Denominations Serving Up Word Salad?

[@sarahm5559]

A lot of people seem to equate “gotta think about this for a few minutes” with “word salad”

[@Guru4hire]

Dense technical language is not the same as a word salad. I don't think dense technical language is meant for the lay person. This isn't limited to religious doctrines.

[@nunagoras]

Absolutely agree... Average people with no Theological or Philosophical education are not prepared enough to understand that deep religious technical language involved on such statements. Similarity between most of those statements and things they've listened to their pastors Sunday after Sunday makes them to, mostly, respond positively rather than negatively, even though, the more complex the statement comes, the more dubious it will resound to the average listener, hence the "word salad" crowd grows as much as the subjects do become more complex. Deep doctrinal ones are obviously the ones more risky. But now; let me just to make another observation: For quite a while I have observed a growing number of pure trolls roaming here round Joshua's videos. Not that pleasant. And pretty much all of them leaning to the "word salad" side of the pond, even if when they feel they're very knowledgeable of the subjects they're not... Certainly the current strong political polarization in our west societies is contributing to this in such a big way, but it doesn't explain its all. Theology is a very complex subject not to be taken in consideration that lightly. It requires time and real effort. Joshua is magnificent on what he does, but sadly a declining number of individuals are able to understand him, and my best bet is that most of us do live in the big cities. Real contact with rural areas like the ones the Bible people lived out is now scarce, hence people tend to have some difficulties understanding those Bible stories... And that is not being addressed by any denomination at all. One or 2 good preachers here and there doing their best... Nothing more of substance. Sadly in some 10 years, not only will the "word salad" brigade to grow, but the number of those ignorant trolls will explode largely.

[@DamePiglet]

I agree. "Word salad" is when people try to use big words incorrectly to sound smarter than they are. Unfortunately, when some people see words they don't know, it's easier to say "word salad" than to define the terms and contemplate whether or not they agree.

[@Saratogan]

Find me "lay person" in the Bible. Luke's observation is that being a "Berean" is "more noble" and that it is open to all believers.

[@professorquarter]

@@Saratogan This is the best comment here. While highly technical language has its place in anything, you ought to consider if you are missing the plot even engaging in it.

[@levigoodwin3522]

​@@professorquarter Dense technical language is helpful shorthand to increase the efficiency of conversation between individuals who know what the specialized terms mean. It's not for "experts" only, but experts should be conscientious of whether or not the specialized language needs to be taught for context while conversing in a mixed audience. Some experts will do this because they are gifted in teaching, and others will not because it will not realize that they need to. The only time when using this language becomes a problem is when it is used to intentionally exclude others less-educated from the conversation without making an attempt to enrich their understanding, or worse yet, lord one's supposed learning over them.

[@RestingJudge]

As my Dad always said, "Words mean things so choose yours carefully" so I applaud any group who tries to articulate their position as thoroughly as possible even if it goes above most peoples' heads.

[@theonlylolking]

Most people cannot handle words greater than two syllables and sentences longer than fifteen words. Those people also have just as much say in a democracy as those who can construct and understand proper conversation.

[@RonJohn63]

@@theonlylolking the Founding Fathers new this. It's why they didn't create a democracy.

[@FortuneZer0]

​@@RonJohn63Yet people dont understand a simple "shall not be infringed".

[@RonJohn63]

@@FortuneZer0 people also don't understand that: - there are more than four words in the 2A, - no right is absolute, - no matter what the Declaration of Independence says, rights are *taken from others by force,* not endowed by the Creator, or granted by mere existence.

[@ВикторЦай-л7я]

Your dad is by no means a regular dad. Most people around me throwing words careless as rocks in a garden

[@inwyrdn3691]

Two things to think about: 1. I, and other non-Christians I know that enjoy your videos, generally click "NS/JSR" since otherwise we'd be disagreeing with everything. I generally understand what they mean but since I am an outsider, I don't feel like I should influence the results. 2. I always appreciate ANY group that crafts, and stands by, a structured and formalized statement of belief. It makes discussing any theology topic so much easier. It's the "maybe" and "possibly" and "you can't DISprove" that drive me nuts. Take your stand, I'll take mine, and we'll each accept the burden of proof for what we believe.

[@Michael-bk5nz]

That is what makes catechisms and creeds useful. Even if you end up disagreeing you have to respect something like the 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church or the Lutheran Book of Concord which clearly articulates where they stand

[@Fernando-ek8jp]

Basically. A statement could be as simple as "Jesus was crucified and resurrected after three days" and I'd still answer "Disagree Strongly" because I'm a non believer. I think giving the "Not a Christian" option would have helped with the results

[@Michael-bk5nz]

@@Fernando-ek8jp KZbin will only let you provide 5 answers

[@Fernando-ek8jp]

@@Michael-bk5nz that makes a lot of sense, thank you

[@Fernando-ek8jp]

@@stereomachine there's like 3 people interacting. Give it time

[@williamnathanael412]

You are doing God's work, bringing diverse theological convictions from various traditions within Christendom to the laypeople in easy-to-understand ways yet not watered down. Keep it up!

[@crw662]

These are not word Salad, they just require context and knowledge of the doctrine being discussed.

[@nunagoras]

And that is mostly not for lay people.

[@crw662]

@@nunagoras I would say that it isn’t most lay people, but I definitely wouldn’t say it’s not for lay people.

[@billcox6791]

You have to know what it means to know what it means

[@crw662]

@@billcox6791 Yea, I guess that is true.

[@genius11433]

Agreeing with OP here. And in my opinion, that is a strike against these groups. Statements of Faith should be in plain English so that those who are not of your tradition-not to mention those who are not of the faith at all-can understand what it is you are saying and can make a decision from there whether they would want to join your faith tradition. Such unintelligible terminology betrays either an archaic date of composition (such as the just-war position from the first quote) or deliberate obfuscation. ... Wait a second. It looks like I fell into a similar trap. Let me translate that last sentence into plainer English: if the sentence uses words that are unfamiliar to modern ears, either the sentence was written a long time ago, or the people who wrote it are trying to hide something.

[@Wild_Flower1997]

I'm excited for part 2. I love your poll questions. I've learned a lot from them. Thank You so much for posting them and for sharing this video.

[@bretryder8401]

That was fun. There will always be a struggle between precision and clarity when dealing with complex subjects.

[@Thoreseus_]

I've been expecting and looking forward to this episode. I tried to answer all the polls as they came out and forcing myself to not choose "just show results." It was fun trying to think through what each statement was trying to convey and take a position on the statement as written.

[@aldntn]

I really appreciate this channel.

[@chedelirio6984]

So, on first glance we could say it sounds like there's some people who just call "word salad" anything that is not a direct 15-second soundbite at a 6th grade reading level, and that has a lot of ideas or even just *words* they don't recognize. However, on the OTHER hand, as pointed out sometimes the authors DO try to be so exact and precise it *is* hard to follow or parse if you're not trained in that particular theology. But that does not make it "word salad", just that it takes a lot of effort breaking it down.

[@collinbanke6996]

I think the common grace statement is very indicative of one of the challenges of these polls. So often I find myself trying to decide how to respond to a statement where I agree with one half but disagree with the other.

[@adamkotter6174]

It's especially difficult when it seems that a worldview I disagree with is baked into the choice of words but I otherwise agree with the statement.

[@danajackson5951]

Would you consider doing a video on all the MAIN theological (and maybe the top practical) issues that have divided protestant denominations?

[@Wild_Flower1997]

This channel is as close to perfection as any channel can get. I love it.

[@Sami_Sue]

It's all VERY interesting. I have really enjoyed these polls and always looked forward to them. I have to say, it takes some real thinking for me to answer some of these polls. I tried not to go for the just show results choice, but there were indeed a couple of times when I finally had to give up and do just that. I am glad to know what church/denominations these came from, so thanks for sharing the results.

[@neiliusflavius]

I think often the issue is that they are trying to condense complex issues down to a few sentences. The result is meaningful as a summary if you know what they are saying but difficult to understand if you don't know where they are coming from.

[@jisooc1042]

Really interesting video, and glad to see the sources for some of the more complex or unfamiliar quotes from the polls. I think the fact that in most of these polls, the Agree options generally get a higher percentage of the votes than the Disagree options shows that denominations are relatively successful in making their statements of belief appeal to a general Christian audience, or at least not alienating people right away by signaling their affiliations too obviously.

[@DamonNomad82]

I think what puts a lot of people off and draws many of the "word salad" comments is the fact that a lot of these groups' statements are worded in a highly technical way, which tends to leave the average person both bored and confused by it. Another complicating factor is that some groups' confessions or positions are centuries old, which means that in those cases they're also using a form of English that is centuries removed from 21st Century English.

[@monicaganderson9431]

Yes, and also there's some selection bias here, we ready to harvest viewers are theology nerds who watch these in our free time, I think if you polled Christians in pews on Sunday you'd get more not sures!

[@Pandaemoni]

I enjoyed this video greatly. It was interesting to see you revisit the results of these polls and highlight a few people's comments and thoughts on it. I think I would enjoy this as a semi-regular feature, whether or not the poll question was said to be word salad, as the comment sections of the polls are often interesting to read. That said, I did not think any of those statements were "word salad" though there were a few times I thought it was unclear what they meant with particular words and phrases (like, as you highlighted, who is included in "the elect"), to me "word salad" is a statement that has some internal, logical incoherence (as in a logical inconsistency) after you unpack it. Something that might be meaningful if its terms were more clearly defined, I'd say is just "unclear" rather than incoherent in that sense.

[@revmarkwillems9312]

When ECO a Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians was first forming, they allowed input on their Essential Tenets. It was sort of a giant exercise in crowdsourcing. I provided the following phrase, "Recognize and honor the image of God in every human being from conception to natural death." The last time I checked their website, it was still there.

[@robcue4543]

Ready to Harvest Rocks!

[@zedlyfe]

Just make sure to pay a living wage to your workers😉

[@ravissary79]

Do you have to get ready to harvest rocks?

[@FourOf92000]

that's usually called mining but now I'm hairsplitting

[@paullavoie5542]

You have to remember that most people who choose an option have no education in theological stances. The reason I found some word salad was that I'm not used to hearing things said in such ways.

[@BethGrantDeRoos]

Am a simple Christian, who believes salvation is open to anyone. Why else would the New Testament tell us that Christ our Lord died for everyone? As such I believe when I accepted Christ as my personal savior, my life changed and old ways were put away and I became a new person who wanted to have the Lord as #1, which entails allowing him to daily change the way I live, choices I make. Dietrich Bonhoeffer the German Lutheran pastor, theologian and anti-Nazi dissident who was executed by the Nazi's has been someone I have so admired since I was first exposed to his writings decades ago. In his 1937 book The Cost of Discipleship he notes that when we as Christians come to Christ we are to die to self. That following Christ and striving as Paul writes in the New Testament to be imitators of Christ in how we speak, and act means we no longer put ourselves first. We ONLY put the teachings and actions of Christ first.

[@Montresor64]

I do enjoy your polls and quizzes. To be honest, sometimes I get a little lost reading and I just choose “not sure/ show results.” I find that there’s usually a specific word that I get hung up on or I overlook. In these instances, context would help, but I’m content with the not sure button for the time being.

[@User_Happy35]

I appreciate your channel so much! The quote from "rule and reign of God being a present reality to be embraced and experienced today" piqued my interest in eschatology. It's not taught during Sunday service at my church. I just remember once the pastor said in passing he didn't know which position was right.

[@Michael-bk5nz]

I generally only say “no opinion” when I am not sure what the statement is really trying to say

[@MasticinaAkicta]

I am a writer, I write stories, I know the value and power of words. And what some people are writing and saying is... just insane. This is why certain movements are a big joke. Take for a moment a few steps back and ... WTF are they saying?

[@crw662]

The last one is not an example of word salad, but an example of most people not understanding the doctrine being discussed.

[@nathanguillaume1247]

Agreed. As someone who has grown up in the UMC and now GMC, the last statement is clear to me. I expect that, as stated in the video, people are just unfamiliar with what the doctrine of prevenient grace is.

[@Crich_Leslie]

You shouldnʼt need prior understanding of the doctrine to grasp the statement if itʼs worded clearly enough. I think the word “prevenient” just threw a lot of people off and kept them from processing the rest of the statement.

[@crw662]

@@Crich_Leslie Doctrinal statements that are precise are often confusing at first. To word it another way often results in it being taken in a heretical way. We have had this problem all the way back to the earliest creeds.

[@crw662]

@@nathanguillaume1247 This also shows why it’s important to study other doctrines outside of your own. Edit: this is a general you and not directed at you personally.

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

@@Crich_Lesliethat’s ridiculous. Oftentimes, the more precise and clearly defined your language, the more technical it becomes, and therefore the harder it is for a layman to understand without being educated on the terms. The same thing happens in science and philosophy. The average person does not know what a homousian is, but a historian of late antiquity will. The average person won’t know what an electron transport chain is, but a botanist will. The average person won’t know what the Melkizedekian priesthood is, but a Christian theologian will. The average person won’t know what a wicked problem is, but an urban planner will. The average person won’t know what haecceity is, but a scotist philosopher will.

[@DanSme1]

Since Joshua ends the video with a discussion on grace and salvation, here are quotes I've discovered of what lies at the CORE of denominational differences. In his thesis response (The Bondage of the Will) to Erasmus by Martin Luther, he said, "You have not wearied me with those extraneous issues about the Papacy, purgatory, indulgences and such like--trifles, rather than issues--in respect of which almost all to date have sought my blood (though without success); you, and you alone, have seen the hinge on which all turns, and aimed for the vital spot." The "hinge" was the nature and degree of damage from the Fall (Genesis 3). Another theologian put it this way. "There is a justification for the fact that the two great doctrines--sin and redemption--go hand in hand. It is sin that has drawn out redemption from the heart of God, and redemption is the only cure for sin. These two realities, in turn, become measurements of each other. Where sin is minimized, redemption is automatically impoverished since its necessity is by so much decreased. The worthy approach to the doctrine of sin is to discover all that is revealed about the sinfulness of sin and then to recognize that God's provided Savior is equal to every demand which sin imposes. It is one of Satan's most effective methods of attack upon the saving work of Christ to soften the voice which is set to proclaim the evil character and effect of sin. Apparently not all who are known as teachers of God's truth are awake to this satanic strategy. It is too often assumed that it is wiser to leave this loathsome monster called sin to lurk in the dark, and to dwell on the more attractive virtues of human life. Sin is what God says it is, and here human opinion and philosophy must bend to the testimony of the Word of God in which He declares the true nature of sin. Opinions of self-flattering men are of little value in a matter which can be determined only by revelation." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology, Vol. 2, p. 224.

[@BramptonAnglican]

Thank you for the great video. I enjoy reading church statements.

[@JeeWeeD]

Some of the statements are not word salad, strictly speaking, but formulated in such a way it needs multiple reads to be grasped. Personally as a non-American, I just react to the statement as presented, because it is almost impossible to recognise what churches are presented when you are not surrounded by them; therefore, I might misinterpret what the church from which the statement is taken wants to say. Well, too bad! 😛 (And yes, the last two mentioned needed more than two reads: I still do not get them...)

[@RandyJGJ]

I like that you’ve created a video to break these down. I try to participate in every poll, as a minister. Will you do these breakdowns periodically?

[@DutchMcGinnis]

Would love to see a bi-weekly or monthly video like this. Great video Josh.

[@majafleur9646]

I LOVE your quizzes! Thank you for your ministry.... Faithful and good servant.

[@melvilleseagren4935]

I've always seen you polls and enjoyed answering them. I look forward to seeing more videos disussing your poll findings. Great research!

[@djungellars]

My favorite church statment is: "Church of England, established according to the laws of this realm under the King's Majesty, belongs to the true and apostolic Church of Christ; and, as our duty to the said Church of England requires, we do constitute and ordain that no member thereof shall be at liberty to maintain or hold the contrary."

[@garanceadrosehn9691]

Just a note: When I select the "Don't know/Just show results", it's usually because I think the statement is "clear", but that the exact meaning of that statement depends on the definition of some words in the statement. An example of this was (I think) in the second example in this video which was talking about "politics" vs "the Kingdom of God". The statement is clear enough, but the meaning depends on what exactly the denomination believes for "kingdom of God", and some other aspects of the statement. I've never left a comment saying something is "word salad", but have been quizzes where that has been my thought. In my case I'd use that if I think the statement is a bit too vague and "beating about the bush". When I see something like that, I expect it is the result of some group of leaders getting together to write down their beliefs, only to find out that they don't have *exactly* the same view of some topic. So they come up with some kind of compromise statement which everyone is willing to sign off on, but which isn't as clear as most the people in that group would liked to have had. I've been in groups like that...

[@Anastas1786]

Some of these feel like the "word salad" commenter either legitimately struggles with reading comprehension, or they thought "Well, that's a lot of words and/or 'High Church-y' theology to say something I think I'm pretty sure I might disagree with, so I'll just declare the whole thing utterly incomprehensible and spare myself the effort of articulating my objections".

[@SeanWinters]

It's usually people who either: 1. Can't comprehend and feel duped, and rather than admit they feel stupid, they accuse the writer of being sophistic 2. People who totally understand what is being said, and feel like the point is intentionally made in a needlessly complicated way, in order to dupe others.

[@HalTuberman]

These denominations are (more often than not) taking care to be very precise and accurate with their words. There's a word for that. It's called honesty. I guess if you UNDERSTAND someone's honesty, you click "strongly agree." But if you DON'T understand someone's honesty, you go to the comments and type "word salad." Technical terms can be difficult and confusing to navigate sometimes, sure. But I'll take honesty and precision over sloppiness and vaguary any day of the week.

[@slamdancer1720]

or you can understand their honesty and very much disagree.

[@greatstoneplanet]

When people use the same words and concepts but have different definitions for them, an out of context statement is bound to be confusing.

[@captainsunshine918]

Humans! We think we're so smart because we have oral language! Do words help us clarify truth? Or obfuscate it? I think more often than not, the latter. Word Salad. Great video!

[@franz-georgleopold-pagel3018]

Thank you for the explanations.

[@stephaniegaughan2886]

I enjoyed this video. Background and results of the questions. There should be more like it.

[@terrytoolin3285]

It was a pleasure watching this video. You were visibly relaxed and so informative. I subscribed some time ago, and more recently, it seemed like the video titles were drifting toward "Learn about (some complex subject) in (something like 7 minutes)". I guess I started paying less attention about then. On the phrase 'word salad', okay . . . I agreed with some, and didn't with others. I totally enjoyed the way it was presented.

[@jeffjarboe3634]

The problem is the lack of common language to describe a lot of these religious technical points.

[@djhk15]

I would love to know who is answering these questions! I know it would be impossible to do cross tabs on every question, but I would love to see the breakdown of the denominations of the voting population. I am also interested in how many are not Christians, and what religion or lack thereof they belong to.

[@fluffysheap]

The respondents are representative of the channel overall. Mostly Christians, but with some other religions and atheists mixed in. I don't know how the viewer base compares to other religious channels because the focus is so different. The extreme neutral point of view (even Religion for Breakfast is less neutral) might be more welcoming but at the same time the focus is narrower.

[@cataphracts123]

Often times yes, but there's also a gulf between word salad and "words Christians use which aren't naturally defined". There's definitely a lot of jargon and lingo, but most of it does have a meaning. I think only the last two quotes could be considered word salad. A lot of statements lack a "so therefore we do this..." followup which would cause people to be more stridently for or against the statement.

[@Honeycomb-fj3kr]

Hello, I was wondering if you ever thought about covering CAC (Christ Apostolic Church) in a future video? I think it would be a interesting denomination to cover, because it was formed in Nigeria. Thank you for the all videos you create, God bless you and your work.

[@MJS-PS144]

This could absolutely be a game show. "Name that Denomination!"

[@Susie_Legion_DBD]

It really feels like most of the people complaining of word salad are just unfamiliar with theological terminology more than anything.

[@RealGalaxyGamers]

I feel like we’ve dumbed down people so much that “word salad” means “something I can’t readily understand immediately”. I understand most of those polls. There are some where you may have to reread - and I admit they sometimes ARE confusing. 🫤 but has he pointed out, these are a lot of people coming together to agree on something, hence the vagueness.

[@glstka5710]

23:58 Some of the terms give away what it is taking about, but sometimes technical language can be unclear because people not involved in the controversy don't know what the terms mean. 'Word salad' as I understand it would try using a lot of words to avoid alerting readers to the real controversy.

[@alisonk3148]

Many of these statements make a lot more sense with context. When they’re presented alone, it’s understandable that someone not fluent in theologian-ese would think they’re word salads.

[@ZipplyZane]

So, I think the problem is that these statements are by professional theologians who are being very intentional in what they are saying. There's a lot of jargon, and a lot of assumptions going on. There isn't a big push to explain things in common, everyday language. Throw in the complete lack of context that might help someone understand it, and it's even worse. And that's why it gets labeled "word salad." My suggestion to you: Try not using direct quotes. Explain what things mean in common, every day language, and get results on that. And then compare that with the official version, and see how different the responses are. Also, try giving full context, and see how different the responses are from when you don't.

[@RobertGrif]

I actually disagree with your suggestion and like the way he's doing things currently. I think it's revealing an important aspect of the Church in the 21st century: the severe disconnect between the ordinary laity and the theologians.

[@nicholasstephens1349]

Fun video sir! I enjoyed it. Thank you!

[@debbiebalnaves4842]

I find your articles to be very interesting. You share viewpoints by other religious organizations 😊 Keep up the good work. Enjoying

[@ikemeitz5287]

For the "The believer's security is conditional" upon "ongoing trusting, living faith in Christ," I have a hard time saying "not at all" to that, even though I believe in eternal security of the saints. "Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ," but "those who endure to the end will be saved." Our salvation is secure in Christ and revealed by our ongoing faith. A "faith" that ends reveals that the salvation wasn't there in the first place, so in a sense, it does depend upon our staying true till the end.

[@WooperSlim]

I remember thinking some of your questions were beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and being surprised by like, 10% agree, and thinking, "I had no idea so many other Latter-day Saints watch this channel!" I think those of other denominations commented similar things, but I remember when you did something more obvious, mentioning Joseph Smith, the percents were more what I was expecting. Maybe one of your future videos will talk about things like that. Anyway, thanks for all your great videos, I enjoy them!

[@javonfair]

I’m curious whether Latter-Day Saints can fit at all into the culture of this channel. For all the people saying Catholics aren’t Christian, Protestants aren’t Christian, etc., I don’t think they’d consider Mormons welcome!

[@Meop79]

I think people are confusing word salad with I don't understand what they're saying in some cases, in other cases it is word salad to obscure the plain words of what they are trying to say.

[@pinkroses135]

Yes word salads intent is manipulation imo. Not using 2 dollar words correctly.

[@oldblackstock2499]

The one about eternal security was refreshing to see that most people agreed with the statement since we often hear "unconditional" eternal security ".

[@CYTBlitz]

I wish there was some way to say which denomination has made the statement the poll is about, but only after a person answers the question. It could be quite a revelation for the denominational devotee who accidentally disagrees with her own denomination, or the zealous critic of a denomination to learn that he actually agrees with that denomination about something.

[@glstka5710]

6:33 A little clearer than the first but the two sentences seem to be talking about different issues. If the rule and reign of God is a present reality, why would any Christian NOT want embrace and experience it? But what does that have to do with earthly politics?

[@jerryczarski5991]

I was wondering what you were attempting with these polls. Congratulations on experiment. Language is what separated Babel, and it is still a problem today. I say the same thing with scripture. Translation is an art. I acquiesce to 2 Peter 1:20-21.

[@nathanaelnewitt3961]

I think lots of the statements have multiple affirmations in which require individual treatment or qualification, so I find I can't answer many for different reasons

[@Thundawich]

Just with regards to the first statement you show, 3:41, it isn't putting boundaries on war. 'aggressive' is a matter of perspective, so in essence they are taking no firm stance on the matter. That is the beauty of ambiguity, they get to say something noncommittal and everyone gets to read their own perspectives into it which gives it broad agreement. That might be why some people are calling it word salad.

[@pj_ytmt-123]

@27:02 Interesting question on the influence of grace in a person's conversion. Was grace at work among the "spectators" when Jesus made the lame walk, or gave sight to the blind? Most gathered around Him initially out of curiosity, because word abounded that their Messiah had come. Nicodemus is another interesting case. He like the rest of the Pharisee elders had much to lose to this new upstart "cult", yet he was drawn to Jesus and secretly went to see Him at night (that was when he received the _born again_ parable). The inter-play between grace, free-will, and God's foreknowledge will occupy theologians for all ages. 😄

[@Ciran87]

This video has enlightened me on the fact that most people don't actually understand what "word salad" means.

[@mamamia5130]

I love this channel.

[@professorquarter]

Matthew's comment definitely was thought provoking. I was raised in Methodism and understood that final comment immediately. I was trying to sniff out what people were unsure of and it wasn't prevenient grace. I looked back at Catholic theology to see if it helped me understand what they are getting at. It originally looked to me while that it would seem to be a Pelagian statement, so I strongly disagreed, but it seems it might accord with Catholic theology. Can any Catholics confirm?

[@tomlorenz4344]

I noticed those were denominational statements, and was wondering why. Clever!

[@daveh893]

Great presentation.

[@timb.4838]

I dont think not understanding the question/statement should be in the same response category as agree or disagree. All of the questions seem perfectly understandable, but dont deserve a simple yes or no answer. These are complicated issues. Nuance matters

[@thomasmaughan4798]

27:55 Somewhat similar to Mormon view that the holy ghost must visit a person and assists in making a choice of where to turn; the light or the dark. There must be *something to choose* or a choice must exist; God versus the devil, and both must be visible or sensed in order to make the choice and *everyone* must be presented with this choice. Mormon's generally do not use "grace" and I'm not even sure what it is; but there IS a spirit or light or force that emanates from God and fills the universe; a person can be attracted to this light, or find it terrifying, or more commonly just ignore it since it is everywhere all the time and thus not usually consciously perceived.

[@dmacnet]

Some of those statements use sophisticated sentence structure, vocabulary or concepts, but none of them are word salad. The closest to word salad is the Polish one, because of its category errors pointed out by the quoted commenter. But even that one has a discernable meaning, albeit a confusing (or confused) one.

[@jamesbarksdale978]

Yes, lack of context does make commenting on the statements a bit of a challenge at times.

[@MisterDevel]

Thank you for the polls!

[@saintjacques8137]

Thank you for this. Not sure at all it's the right niche but there's a seriously interesting content made by Schwerpunkt on salvation and the Traditional doctrine of grace in religious historical perspective that I strongly recommend. Keep up with the amazing work and God bless! Love, Jacques

[@Aftersun371]

The thing I am most impressed with at Ready to Harvest is how neutral you are. I would happily do a Luther and nail a list of world salad chefs onto a church door. After which I’d nail a second thesis on the other door explaining why Calvin’s doctrine of once saved, always saved is deeply unchristian. So anyway. Glad we have you to stay neutral and just present things as-is!

[@JasonAWilliams-IS]

Context matters. without context, many of these statements are hard to understand.

[@hitomukawakami7124]

It’s only word salad if you ask them to elaborate on it and they can’t do it.

[@Bobbychildree]

Your explanations are usually more clear than the doctrinal statements. The doctrinal statements use language from the times they were written. Even common words can change their meanings over time. In Shakespeare’s day lewd meant uneducated and a nice person was to be avoided. In trying to be exact some of these doctrinal points become just mystifying. I believe that’s the reason many churches have catechisms - to insure a basic understanding of at least their vocabulary. Sad how many people go through the catechism just fine but do not know if they are saved or not.

[@Crich_Leslie]

“in trying to be exact some of these doctrinal points become just mystifying” Iʼve found that several of these doctrinal statements are fine points that bounce around in many denominations, and are believed by some members and not others, but are not mentioned in their statements of beliefs.

[@chrisray9653]

One of the best pieces of data is where a denomination lies in average income level. Jews and Hindus are on top in the United States, followed by Episcopalians and Presbyterians. Catholics and Baptists are slightly below average, but in large subsets of a population ,the subset will approach the general population average. Interestingly enough JWs are the poorest.

[@chrisray9653]

@@Aftersun371 Do you attribute those results to something essential to those religions themselves, or other historical and cultural factors?

[@EcclesiastesLiker-py5ts]

Calling Germany or UK Protestant is a bit of a stretch.

[@jacobjensen7704]

@@Aftersun371I would tread very carefully with what you’re saying. Whenever people have done something you just did but with race, it would lead to many racist (and turns out, inaccurate) conclusions. You don’t want to do the same with religious tradition.

[@jacobjensen7704]

@@Aftersun371 you weren’t disrespectful, I was just warning at the direction you were going. I wasn’t saying race and religion are intertwined, I was saying that the type of comparisons you were making have been used to discriminate. Not saying you were discriminating, I was warning that following that line of thought any further could easily lead to discriminatory thinking.

[@keeperofthedomus7654]

JWs don't believe in higher education and they require their members volunteer many hours of work for their church each week, so that makes sense.

[@heberfarnsworth]

Great video! I'm glad you are collecting this data to do this kind of analysis.

[@SuperTommox]

I think this is an interesting experiment, the only problem is that it's hard to understand a theological statement without its full context.

[@wayneinnc5379]

Don’t know if you will see this question but will send it anyway. If I missed a video on this subject, please tell me where it is. Reference the SBC and the Law Amendment, could you do an in depth analysis of it?? What are your thoughts on it, one way or another? What will happen if it does pass? As a Southern Baptist all my life , I hope it does pass. The current church we attend is already in the sights of the SBC as “not in friendly cooperation” with the SBC. They are obsessed with the CBF. It is my biggest fear that if the law amendment does not pass, the SBC will go the Methodist path and become a homosexual led entity. We are in limbo as trying to find a good church. We are of the belief that the CBF is already a homosexual led group that no longer is a Bible believing group. Thank you kind sir.

[@cooperkern4112]

I don't consider myself a Christian so I almost always click to just show results. I wonder if an increase in "don't know" clicks are really more about not caring about a small detail

[@JesusisKing134]

I think it would make sense to split up the not sure and just show results categories to get some better info.

[@ReadyToHarvest]

Wish I could, but only 5 options allowed on polls.

[@ravissary79]

Are you gathering data for a PHD thesis?

[@paullavoie5542]

I believe God saves people who come to him and the people who don't come to him, he doesn't save. What do you think about this statement.

[@scarletibis4458]

Holy crap I just came to comment on the thumbnail because the fact that people agreed with that is insane. That's beyond prevenient Grace to allow man to say yes to the offer of salvation, which is still entirely God's work (which I believe in), this is straight up bonkers

[@lilacsandroses51]

For a lot of these posts, I'm feeling like I'm jumping into the middle of a thought, not being able to understand the context of the statement. And, on occasion, feeling quite stupid for not understanding.

[@Gingerbreadley]

It’s quite strange that Christians are having problems with these. I’ve definitely seen Christian word salad from preachers or scam artists but these were all definitely coherent. Like I understand these while being an atheist so there isn’t an excuse.

[@javierpowell4705]

i think in the quest to be thorough, word salad is created. Things and specifics are defined in Comma separated messes. For example the relatively straight forward common grace quote you put up does not come off that way due to the first clause. The word salad is separated via asterisks; "In a addition to the saving grace of God***,shown only to those who are elected to eternal life,***..." This way of phrasing may come off as word salad because the commas and structure make it an addition to something you already read without flowing into a consistent idea. a better phrasing could be; "God's saving grace is shown only to those elected to eternal life." breaking the idea off into it's own sentence. The rest can work like this; "God shows another favor or grace to his creatures in general." The previous multi-comma separated phrase is long and wordy. By streamlining and cracking it into two halfs, you can get a much more readable result. I can't speak for all writers but my experience in print journalism, has taught me to write in short sentences without overbearing the reader. Writing like those featured in the video for doctrines are designed by committee and with theology first. Through such a process complications to satisfy the group are to be expected. Forgive me if I made the same mistakes in my own explanation, it's getting late where I'm at.

[@stevewagner7507]

Global Methodists need to define "prevenient" or preventing grace. It does not mean prevent in the typical sense. (prevent a fire or prevent defense). But the theological term comes from "pre" before and "ven" means come (to salvation). So, prevenient grace comes from God before salvation.

[@HolyKhaaaaan]

The word salady ones at the end make sense considering English may have been a second language for the people who wrote these statements (the Polish of the PNCC and some members of the GMC respectively).

[@longstreet2740]

At one time denominational differences, good and bad, meant more. Speaking for myself, I Affirm that I got Saved UPON Onetime Event ( Not Process ) of Believing ON JESUS CHRIST as Saviour from my Sins, Based Solely on HIS Perfect Compleat work of the Cross as Payment. Had a Full sense of ETERNAL SECURITY, Immediate upon belief on CHRIST.This was almost 50 years ago this summer, 1974, at Lutheran Camp. Was led to Fundamentalist Baptist in 1976 where I got Baptized with the understanding a 1st step in Chrisitan Growth ( NOT Salvation ) but got subsequently confused by Calvinists, Catholics, and Charismatics, and Cultists and had Crisis of Assurance. There are always a few brethren who try to convince me that I lost Salvation (Charismatics ) or never had it to begin with ( LOADSHIP, Calvinists ) or Faith pus Works ( Church of Christ, United Pentecostal, 7th Day.... )

[@michaelkaminski1166]

Ah, so that’s what all those questions were for!

[@jcr3500]

Most, maybe all, were challenging because it is concise, technical language without context...not word salad.

[@Bonifatus]

I think when people complain about “word salad” with respect to these they’re more talking about the ambiguity you talk about here. It’s often hard to speak definitively agreeing on an issue without understanding the context of what a group means when they use certain words. The statements themselves are coherent and clear, but the way the words are stitched together opens the door to people with entirely divergent beliefs to agree with the statement if they interpret a few of the words in a specific way.

[@slipstream4572]

it's "word salad" when it's non-biblical, it's not because it's well thought and using language you are not used to, it's because it's non-biblical language in persuasive well articulated heresies

[@byrondickens]

Yep. You're one of those people that talking about who doesn't know what word salad means.

[@slipstream4572]

@@byrondickens a "confused or unintelligible mixture of seemingly random words and phrases" (sometimes a medical condition, eg "schizophasia" speech) However, a term also used, (and in regards to this "ready to harvest" channel)... it's "word salad" when statements of faith are reworked and reworked... this channel is full of denominational pet doctrines, that are not quite biblical, and so continually reworked in statements of faith that church leaders can agree on. The end result often "heresy"! (or they would simply quote scripture)