Real Biologist on the Difference Between Gender & Sex| Atheist Experience 26.46

Joshua from NC believes that gender and sex are the same for biological reasons.
The Atheist Experience 26.46 for November 13, 2022 with Forrest Valkai and Jim Barrows
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[@MTtheDoodleKing]

It makes me happy to have a caller that doesn’t claim that Atheist are evil or whatever. This conversation is very informative.

[@kevinsundelin8639]

As a transgender person, I will not be watching this for my mental stability, but I do want to say thank you for tackling this topic and thank you to the caller for taking the initiative to investigate.

[@Angelum_Band]

So what sex are you?

[@xangelmoonx]

It's always good to take a break now and then!

[@kevinsundelin8639]

@@xangelmoonx It is!

[@Angelum_Band]

@@kevinsundelin8639 What sex are you?

[@kevinsundelin8639]

@@Angelum_Band Why do you ask?

[@anotherhuman8173]

As a student in biology this was delightful to listen to, Forrest is great

[@blackpilleddadli]

@@cajunking5987 You're just mad the science destroys YOUR shit politics. Cope

[@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2]

@@cajunking5987 "what science[?]"... from the PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL "Neuropharmacology": Nguyen, Hillary B., et al. *"What has sex got to do with it? The role of hormones in the transgender brain."* Neuropsychopharmacology 44.1 (2019): 22-37. *The brain as a gender mosaic* _To understand the status of neuroimaging research in transgender samples, it is important to appreciate the origins of sex differences in the brain across development in cisgender individuals. The presence of the androgen testosterone and its aromatization to estradiol in utero cause the fetal brain of the male to organize in such a manner to result in a more masculine phenotype across the lifespan [15, 21]. The absence of androgen production by the female fetus and estrogen-binding activity of alpha-fetoprotein in the female fetus lead to a more feminine brain phenotype [22]. However, the distinction between the female and male brain is not always clear-cut, as brain regions may be more or less programmed by androgens and estrogens leading to greater or lesser masculinization of various brain regions during prenatal development. _*_This “mosaic” of maleness and femaleness occurs even among cisgender individuals [23]._* _One compelling hypothesis for the development of transgender experiences is a disconnect between an individual’s brain “sex/gender” and the sex associated with their reproductive organs due to the relative maturation of these organs across gestation, with _*_genital development completed in first trimester and brain development continuing throughout pregnancy [24, 25]._*_ A genetic component may also be involved, as siblings of transgender individuals are more likely to be transgender compared with the general population [26]._

[@blackpilleddadli]

@@cajunking5987 The fact that sex and gender are two different things and the fact that biological sex is bimodal. Maybe you should actually watch/rewatch the video - this time without being triggered because your deeply ingrained assumptions are being contested - and maybe you might learn something.

[@ajclements4627]

@@cajunking5987 You say it doesn’t exist, prove it.

[@Sinless_Stone_Caster]

@@cajunking5987 Yeah prove it.

[@SaturnSnapple]

My Mom is a hardcore fundamentalist, and Ive pretty much not been able to change her mind on almost anything regarding her hard beliefs, at least that she's willing to admit. But surprisingly, I HAVE been able to move her wayyyy over on this topic and it wasn't that difficult. Forrest's videos definitely helped in that regards so thanks!

[@timsmith530]

She is just trying not to argue with you . That's all. If she is solid she won't budge

[@elijahmalachi45-6dieker8]

I am Elijah of Malachi 4 5-6 so any discrepancies in the Bible are decided by me. God made them male or female, determined by gender located in the brain. Matthew 19:12 says that God prefers at same-sex relationships. Matthew 19:12 Eunuchs that are born that way are transgender. Eunuchs made that way by others were abused. Those that choose to live like Eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of heaven are bisexual people that choose partners of the same sex but opposite in regards to gender. Anybody saying that same-sex marriage is a sin is now blacked out from the holy Spirit and a part of the Great Tribulation that started September 1st

[@owersmenblortsmon4731]

Like all atheists, Forrect is lost & clueless and has no answers. NO ATHEIST has a RATIONAL/POSSIBLE, step-by-step athest explanation for reality. That’s because there isn’t one. That fact should be a very large “RED FLAG” that the religious cult of atheism = delusion. Atheists hate truth and the idea of having to answer to G0D for their lives. They’re basically a sect of arrogant, lost & clueless, selfish rebels that are undone, dying and going to hell. They have less-than-nothing and you want to follow that idiocy? It’s PAST TIME to investigate the truth (God, Creation, The Bible). I’ll help you. Let me know if you have any questions.

[@acfkelly6291]

My parents are fundamentalists, but claim science backs them. Any science that doesn't, is "liberal propaganda "

[@dickbuttbuttdick901]

@@elijahmalachi45-6dieker8 Numbers 31:17-18 King James Version 17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. bible quotes are fun!

[@diedrichbuck6975]

I adore Forrest and watched this episode live. My family is currently adjusting to something this particular subject touched on and I showed this segment to my wife, who has been struggling to grasp the difference between gender and sex. After watching it she had her 'A-Ha' moment. I'm not saying any of us are completely clear of the hurdles we are approaching, but it's nice that something like this can bring clarity to at least some aspects of it.

[@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2]

@@cajunking5987 when did you get your PhD in psychology or paediatrics or neuroscience?

[@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2]

Good luck with your journey Diedrich. My understanding is that there will be some rough days, particularly due to people like our Dunning-Kruger "expert" here in this thread. Having supportive, understanding parents who _listen_ will go a long way to arriving, eventually, at a happy, healthy adult, whatever that final image looks like. 👍

[@ajclements4627]

@@cajunking5987 Nice deflection.

[@Sinless_Stone_Caster]

@@cajunking5987 👈 *Smells like hot cheese.*

[@Gambit0590]

@@cajunking5987 cry more bigot

[@fandomanimator1074]

I love this video. Im a trans woman and I just love watching these types of videos. The caller seemed very nice.cant wait to watch more videos like these from you guys

[@seanalexandre5299]

If you haven't seen it yet, I recommend a video Forrest did on his channel called "Sex And Sensibility". A friend of mine sent it to me about a year go and I've been addicted to Forrest ever since. I wish I could post the link but if you just do a search for "Forrest Valkai Sex and Sensibility" it should be the first video. It's about 30 mins and he does an AMAZING job at breaking down the differences and broad spectrum's between sex and gender. Cheers! Be wonderful and live your True self.

[@ajclements4627]

@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature 🤦‍♂️

[@Gambit0590]

@@cajunking5987 found the idiotic science denyer

[@Gankstomper]

@@cajunking5987 You're not going to elaborate on that claim, are you?

[@Gankstomper]

@@cajunking5987 It's a claim that there is a video where he horribly fails at what he's basically spent his whole life studying. You don't just throw that out without evidence. More likely you just disagreed with him, I seriously doubt he ever "horribly failed" at defining anything on this subject.

[@Thanos88888]

It's so funny that people call this stuff "new". I was taught the differences between sex and gender over 20 years ago in a Catholic High School. It really isn't a difficult concept.

[@vladtheemailer3223]

The idea is about 70 years old and didn't start become widespread until 50 years ago. So, it comes down to how "new" is defined.

[@ZeljkoMikulec]

@@ookeekthelibrarian >Strange how some theists schools do teach real science that's not science, that's opinion. science ends where opinion begins

[@ZeljkoMikulec]

@@ookeekthelibrarian you are referring to some christian schools DO teach REAL science. Thats not science. its opinion and politics. Doesnt matter who is teaching it . its not science. Doktor RER is also not doctor as we understand it (rer from rerum) Telling that: Gender is not the same as sex but somewhat other expression for the 'personality' is not less worse than telling people that the world is created by god. both are opinions to certain degree. you have to believe it. both are not science

[@ZeljkoMikulec]

@@ookeekthelibrarian that's not argument and you are repeating yourself. You could tell the same story without calling (raising to the level of science) this science. but you are not. You are so convict in true of your saying that you aren't capable of taking slow approach that this is probably only opinion. in few years there is no gender term any more but only money-syndrom (from john money who broath it up) well that would be also 'only an opinion'

[@amtlpaul]

@@ZeljkoMikulec What?

[@shrews12001]

leaving people the fuck alone about their gender/sex/identity/absolutely anything else is also an option

[@47f0]

@@cajunking5987 - I leave people to believe in all sorts of delusional things. As long as those beliefs do not translate into public policy.

[@shrews12001]

@@cajunking5987 that's a bullshit analogy and you know it

[@t800fantasm2]

@@cajunking5987 "Do you leave Christians to their beliefs? " I would as soon as they stop pushing religion onto society, laws, education etc...

[@t800fantasm2]

@@cajunking5987 "so you don’t leave those who believe in gender identity to their beliefs?" I simply don't give a rat's ass as nothing to do with gender identity affects me... Whereas religion affects me by forcing me to pay higher taxes to compensate for the fact that churches and religious organizations pay little to no taxes...

[@jquest99]

@@shrews12001 He doesn't know it. He thinks it's valid. Of course that doesn't change the fact that it's BS. 😅

[@joshsheridan9511]

Jebus but the threads read like the anti-gay bs of the 70s

[@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2]

Yep, like the guy who described promptness as "cringe", rather than saying what he really thought (I got it out of him later) and proving that he's a transphobe in EXACTLY the way you describe

[@bradsmith4875]

Probably one of the most well thought out and succinct explanations of the differences between sex and gender that I've ever heard. Thank you for this.

[@WilliamBTCWallace]

Next to we discuss how a car being called a truck tries to tow a trailer but oddly fails.

[@arnoldfossman1701]

Jim, you mentioned avian rodent posteriors, I've been lately experiencing a supply shortage of rodent posteriors. Is this shortage caused by some increase in the incidence of the avian form? If so where can I order the avian form so I can relieve my shortage problem?

[@nollattacykel]

What a wonderful and informative breakdown! Thank you Forrest!

[@JohnJhones]

What do you think about endocrine disruptors such as bisphenol A, dioxins, atrazine, phthalates, perchlorate etc.

[@benjaminfranklin8412]

Informative?

[@nollattacykel]

@@benjaminfranklin8412 Synonyms educational educative enlightening illuminating informational informatory instructional instructive

[@nollattacykel]

@@JohnJhones What do you expect me to answer?

[@nollattacykel]

@nickg6314 In my car, I would just pray like this: "Hey Google, play..." and whatever song I feel like at the moment. Works every time and feels like teen spirit ;-) That's my Stairway to heaven, no deity required

[@saveusmilkboy]

"...or maybe I don't understand something." Joshua, I have heard nothing else of this conversation, but I appreciate that statement more than you can know.

[@Rolandais]

Having conversations about how what Gender means from culture to culture, is always great, information and education on this matter, seems more and more important in a world that is so heavily influenced by the horrific ideas of the Abrahamic religions and cultures they've created. Understanding that there have been cultures, and are cultures that don't have a concept of gender, or ones that have more than two, and have been throughout history, and the reason we globally today have this misunderstanding is almost entirely down to a handful of religions that all have the same absolutely terrible foundation, is pretty bad to realize for some, I expect. (Especially, if you spend time looking in the book, which *at worst* is neutral on the notions of gender and sex, and at best says, there are no set genders, and people should behave and dress as the gender they conform to does, in the one place it is mentioned in the old testament.)

[@facelessdrone]

This video made me so happy, thanks guys!!! Forest info dumping is always a treat!! 😁

[@jquest99]

Ugh. Wonder how many trolls are going to make ignorant comment about how they are too stupid to understand gender and sex.😮‍💨

[@robmanning6006]

Too stupid or maybe they just refuse play your ridiculous game

[@blzebub2]

@@cajunking5987 Did you watch the show?

[@blzebub2]

@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature What's a god regardless creature?

[@amtlpaul]

@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature I have three God regardless creatures. What of it, troll creature?

[@AlcornAthena]

@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature blessings of Arkay upon you.

[@Seethi_C]

If gender is independent of sex, then you should be able to describe and talk about gender without appealing to sex

[@elsen3066]

They think the cake they want to eat is independent of the cake they get to keep.

[@pirko101]

What is your point? Yes because of cultural, societal and legal needs we do get assigned gender at birth,.often because of biological apperance...and it still doesn't mean biological sex will set your gemder to be written in the stone.

[@apostatereacts]

I want to learn more about the findings that trans people have neural architecture that aligns with their gender identity, not their genitals. I knew this already and have raised it in discussions, but still don't feel fully armed to defend the idea that there may be a neurological basis for what used to be termed "gender dysphoria". This strikes me as a bombshell discovery that somehow hasn't exploded yet! If anyone could help me learn more, that would be appreciated.

[@SamuelBastable]

Love this………..great explanations of how biology is nowhere near as simple as people want to believe and the true complexities of the reality. It’s great that it wasn’t from an ‘attack’ perspective too, and remained educational, respectful and informative. I’ve saved it to my favourite videos and subscribed to the channel to follow future conversations and will definitely be sharing this with other people in the hopes that some will begin to understand the subject better and support trans people and people with DSDs in achieving the equity in society that should be a given for everyone.

[@crispyblack8779]

Forrest is a national treasure. ❤️❤️❤️

[@Angelum_Band]

Here I see 11 likes.

[@nicciswainhi]

My 74 yr old mother was kicked off the school bus as a kid for wearing pants

[@ginsu85]

I'm going to miss Matt being on the AEX, but if Forrest is on more that makes me happy as well because Matt and Forrest are both amazing!

[@Tablespoonmischief]

Except we know that gender is at least in part influenced by biology for example fetuses being exposed to prenatal testosterone tend to be more masculine as children and adults. And if gender is not tied to biology, then why would anyone need to get a sex change?

[@MegaFrog]

If your gender isn't tied to your hair length, why do you cut it?

[@MegaFrog]

No one is arguing that gender has nothing to do with biology. All states of mind are tied to biology, because the brain operates biologically. The argument is that biological SEX has very little bearing on GENDER.

[@Tablespoonmischief]

@@MegaFrog You cut your hair because of biology not because of gender. But there are both rooted in biology.

[@Tablespoonmischief]

@@MegaFrog Except science doesn’t agree with that. Gender is rooted in biological sex. What the trans activists are calling “gender” are more accurately described as aspect of someone’s personality and temperament, which do exist on a spectrum. But this cannot accurately be called gender because an effeminate man is not a woman. A masculine woman is not a man. So to have a cogent argument, you have to define your terms. Can you define what a woman is without reference to the word woman. If you can’t then you can’t then you are just playing semantic word games in order to push a political agenda.

[@John-nv5zy]

​@@MegaFrog That's not an argument. Almost everyone who has hair is required to cut it because it never stops growing. It's not practical for most people to have hair that's 6 foot long. Your second comment is absurd. If that's true, why are people presenting aa the opposite sex? Why are people removing and altering sexual organs? Why are they giving children puberty blockers which stops sexual development?

[@bobbybecker3572]

"yeah, but, I wasn't actually listening to anything you just said, and due to a genetic defect I can't actually understand complicated subjects, and I have to do more research but unfortunately I'm a cockroach so I can't actually read" Nine out of ten callers on this show

[@mike309saa]

I really want to talk to Forest about this topic as I've looked so much into it but I don't get it. Firstly I have no issues with homosexuals, trans men/women etc but the non-binary thing confuses me. If there are more than two genders then how does transgender work? Don't transwomen undergo surgery and have hormone blockers etc to look like a stereotypical woman that apparently doesn't make someone a woman and the same for transmen? Could I present my appearance as a male but identify as a woman? I feel like it's a game of labelling things that don't need labelling. What is wrong with a man or woman doing things that aren't stereotypical with those genders according to society? If a man wants to wear a dress and wear makeup then why do we need to create a new label for it? Doesn't creating a new label just affirm that we live in a society with gender norms? If I, a cismale, decide to wear a dress but I identify as a man then am I expected by non-binary people to identify as non-binary instead because a man shouldn't be wearing a dress according to social norms? We all know what a chair is. It doesn't if it has 4 legs or even 6 legs then it's still classed as a chair. If we place objects on the chair as if it were a table then we don't suddenly start calling the chair a table, it's still a chair. So why do we change labels for genders because someone decides they want to do things outside of the social norm of that gender? It seems like non-binary just affirms the gender norms that non-binary people are against. If a self-identified man wants to do a womanly thing then is that not allowed without changing their gender to some other gender? I hope I've not offended anyone just want to understand the non-binary side of things as it's the only thing I don't understand.

[@Quartz512_]

Cismen, ciswomen, transmen, transwomen, and non-binary people can all do stereotypically feminene things, gender identity isn't expected, it's self-identitied

[@RuggerboyUK]

Brilliant video. So informative. Great work.

[@nickrobbins7704]

Only people that are virtue signaling (which this guy was doing hardcore) would spit out so much incorrect science. It's worse when people try to play it off like you wouldn't get it because "you" aren't advanced enough to get it use your reason and they are full of sh%$

[@justinkarels6028]

Where was he Virtue signaling? What was the incorrect science? I just learned today that shrimp start off male then become female.

[@Vic2point0]

@nickrobbins7704 Generally I agree. But it wasn't so much that it was *incorrect* science, but that his whole approach is unscientific. People are x because they think they're x? Because their brains are structurally different? That's true of many people with mental conditions we'd all agree are problematic. We don't say that their brains being different confirms their beliefs; at best, we might say that this explains why they *hold* such beliefs.

[@nickrobbins7704]

Oh ok yes thank you that's a better more concise way to explain it that's refreshing to hear from a KZbin comment

[@justinkarels6028]

@@Vic2point0 His whole approach is unscientific? You are the one assuming being transgender is a mental disorder, just as people once assumed being gay was a mental disorder but changed over time as scientists started looking into it more and more evidence presented itself, which he explains in the video. He isn't just saying people are x because they believe they're x, he says there is obviously more to it. Did you even listen to what he said, or just assumed it was all propaganda nonsense?

[@Ethentent]

@@justinkarels6028 Are you a shrimp?

[@Sydney_With_A_Why]

What a great call! The end gave me big fuzzy feels, yay AXP! They're FREE!

[@BlackHat-v4j]

If I remember gender and sex were thought as same thing socially But it changed with the trans movement Which isn’t bad but for a while it was categorised same

[@Orochi_001]

In my journey to educate myself regarding this topic, I’ve found conflicting reports of what percentage of people are classed as intersex. For example, is it true that a woman who loses an ovary early in life would fall under this classification? The numbers cited seem to vary quite a bit, from 0.018% to 1.7% of the population. Thanks!

[@IronFreee]

What a bunch of nonsense... Being male or female is like being tall or small. Yes those are social constructs and they vary depending of time periods and societies. But they are based on a reality (relative to the rest of the population). What a Pigmies would consider a tall person is not the same as what I would consider a tall person. That doesn't mean that I can decide if I'm tall or not unless I do something about my physical condition. I can pretend I'm tall, but that doesn't mean it's a reality or that other people have to agree with me. You can call me "genius" from now on, because intelligence is also a social construct...

[@amtlpaul]

Categories are based on real things, but what real things? At what precise does a person get to be 'tall'? Six foot? Taller? And the concept of height is pretty unambiguous. Try to make the same claim for your idea of gender without begging the question.

[@amtlpaul]

Intelligence is a social construct. As a society, we value some skills and knowledge over others. That's a fact. When we talk about intelligence, we are referring to a construct that does refer to objective facts but that doesn't make it independent of human feelings, desires, biases. For example, an intelligence test measures real things, but who decides what real things to measure and how much they count towards an assessment of a person's intelligence?

[@IronFreee]

@@amtlpaul "At what precise does a person get to be 'tall'? Six foot? Taller?" It works the same way as everything else, we compare people height to the other people. So if you live in a place where the average people size is very short, you will be tall at a lower eight than if you live among taller people. You can evaluate people height by reference to an average size. People genders, like for the other animals, is mainly determined by the chromosomes. You can make a spectrum and most people will have attributes (reproductive organs) that will put them on one side or the other.

[@amtlpaul]

@@IronFreeeSo there is no fixed category of 'tall people". Sounds pretty 'fluid' to me.

[@IronFreee]

@@amtlpaul "who decides what real things to measure and how much they count towards an assessment of a person's intelligence?" As with gender, or morality, no matter how you define it, if you can't get other people to agree with you. Then you have to fulfill the requirements or you will probably be considered an idiot.

[@kirklarson4536]

I think a lot of people (particularly men) worry if they are attracted to someone they meet who does not match the gender they assume, doe that make them gay? Dude, get over it. If you are really attracted to the person (and they back), you'll work it out. If you can't deal, move on. Don't be a jerk.

[@moreausylvain]

Best explanation ever. Super interesting.

[@Alex-nx2bj]

"When you're talking about humans - which are not shrimp" god what a quote lmao

[@pirko101]

For anyone more interested about this topic of biological sex and gender, Forest made entire video and I think it can be found on his YT channel.

[@scotthastings8569]

You guys need to go on a national tour or write a book to educate people! This was great!

[@tylertyler8782]

Hey everyone just a reminder, no your not crazy they’re are two sexes/genders. Any biological/gene makeup out of the XY/XX categories is known as a genetic anomaly, compared to the two standard human genetic categories He basically explains in a million different ways someone can be intersex. The part he leaves out is they make up at most according to google up to 1.5% of the total population. You can get educated on the topic of genders and how they are impact by a person sex, by reading about human Biodiversity & its various research, books, articles.

[@Quartz512_]

well yeah, if you ignore 120 million people, there are only two sexes! Also there's obviously more than two genders. Forrest is a man, a friend of mine is a woman, and I am non-binary.

[@47f0]

"Girls will be boys, and boys will be girls It's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world... Except for Lola"

[@MrMarcusIndia]

"Girls who want boys Who like boys to be girls Who do boys like they're girls Who do girls like they're boys Always should be someone you really love" - Girls & Boys, Blur

[@quincyjones5676]

Are you high?

[@kirklarson4536]

People freaking out about trans when they grew up on Lola, Boy George, Prince, and a whole host of gender bending stars. They scream and shout like it's something new.

[@47f0]

@@quincyjones5676 - No. Are you? When you see those quotes, typically it's something you can look up. The musical irony of claiming your YT handle isn't lost... the real QJ would have instantly recognized the lyric.

[@MrMarcusIndia]

@@kirklarson4536 One of my best friends listened to "Walk on the Wild Side" for years and still managed to miss what the song was actually about :). I think people often fail to actually listen to the lyrics.

[@dragonvliss2426]

The difference between biological identity -- which, as this video stresses is not truly binary -- and gender, is so important for those of us in the LGBTQ community. I identify as cisgender female physically, but I am bisexual, with a cisgender female partner for 43 years. We BOTH always play as men in any roleplay situation, either between ourselves, or in a social group such as roleplaying personae in the Society for Creative Anachronism or online. I've have known trans people, and know I am not trans, but I am not completely "a woman " either. So, I agree it is so important just to treat people with empathy, and as fellow human beings. As an animal rights activist, it is also vital not to see species as absolute either; we share so much with other species as well.

[@somersetcace1]

This brought a certain amount of clarity to an old man with old fashioned understandings, but I do have a question, though I'm having trouble articulating it in my mind, so I'll have to go with an example. Take clothing for example, which was mentioned here. I can certainly understand that a piece of clothing does not define your gender or sex. A skirt, for example, is just a skirt. However, a jockstrap has a specific biological purpose right? A bra, serves a certain biological purpose, to support enlarged breasts. So, regardless of how you identify, why would you wear either of those things if you don't have male genitalia or enlarged breasts? If the answer is "To make me feel more feminine or masculine," then isn't that tying the biology to the gender? If we're going to separate them it seems inconsistent. To take it a step further, if you are a biological male and you identify as a woman, why would you `transition` at all? If biology is irrelevant, then why change your biology? If you identify as a woman or man and those are merely social constructs, then what difference does it make? Why go through all that if not to make yourself appear more `male` or `female` in a biological sense? Again, it just seems inconsistent.

[@halosaft]

It would be inconsistent if you were to say that biology is irrelevant, but Forrest has never said that. In fact he has in this and multiple other videos argued that there is a biological aspect to being trans, hence why he's brought up having a "female brain in a male body". It's also why he's arguing it as a biologist, because biology is very much a part of it. But what Forrest is saying is that the biology isn't binary as so many people want it to be. It's bimodal. Which is why we have so many different males and females. Females that are more masculine and males that are more feminine and all kinds of different combinations with all the sexual characteristics. Gender on the other hand is a different thing. It's just your expression on how you present yourself in society, and therefore it's socially constructed. It changes from culture to culture and from time to time. Skirts can be feminine once and later it can be masculine. It has nothing to do with biology. But that does make trans people want to fit in with the socially constructed gender norms of their society. So a trans woman would probably want to wear feminine clothing, whatever those clothings now would be in the society they live in.

[@somersetcace1]

@@halosaft No, he didn't say "biology is irrelevant." He said it's not the same thing, which `I` said makes it irrelevant. However I get what you're saying and it makes a certain amount of sense. However, it still begs a question. If Gender is a social construct, then it's subjective. Which means for someone to say "Gender is inexorably tied to biology," would be their socially constructed opinion. What makes that opinion any less valid than any other opinion, given it's subjective? furthermore, how would anyone justify demanding others adopt a specific opinion on it?

[@halosaft]

@@somersetcace1 I don't really understand what you mean when you ask how a subjective opinion is any more valid than another. Aren't all opinions subjective? Hence why they're opinions. Language itself is a social construct, we make up words, we don't discover them. If someone wants to call a cat "water", what makes their opinion over what it's called any more valid than any other persons opinion? It doesn't. But if they talk to me about water I'm probably going to be very confused because we're talking about very different things. And just like if someone has the opinion that "gender is inexorably tied to biology" or maybe "the earth is flat" then they can have that. But they're going against the scientific consensus and will probably confuse a lot of people when they talk. Just like the person referring to a cat when they say water.

[@somersetcace1]

@@halosaft No, not the same thing. The Earth is objectively a sphere. That's a false parallel. In this case, `Gender` is subjective by definition. It's a social construct. So, how can "science," even weigh in on it. You can't have it both ways. You can't say it's subjective and then claim Science says otherwise. What scientific consensus defines gender as objective. True, independent of a subject? How would they even test it? Also, while it's true that language is a `social construct` of sorts, words DO change meaning. All the time. In fact, that's basically what this debate is about. The meaning of a specific word. That being `Gender.` In this very video Forrest says it changes culture to culture and even person to person. You're right, going around changing the meaning of words arbitrarily can and does cause confusion, but colloquialisms exist and no one denies it. Truth is, up until about 5 years ago, the socially accepted definition of `Gender` in our culture was exorable tied to sex. That's the whole point.

[@johnpatrickmadrigal477]

I'm not a fan of gender politics or you are what you think you are but Forrest gave me a new perspective on it because I thought there's only XX and XY chromosome. So, I suggest do not view this as only an "opinion" of Forrest, some of what he said are good arguments backed by Science. Do not politicize everything, look at the arguments and verify it.

[@countryinnmotel9824]

When you say gender politics, are you referring to the right wing effort to ride a wave of hatred for trans people into office?

[@blackpilleddadli]

The only people "politicizing" trans people are the people seeking to have them ostracized, denied health care, and forced into the closet.

[@johnny10grasp3]

Kids born in the gray area still choose male or female and stay with it. I feel like this is a cover up for people now a days can be a male in the morning and female by night. I doesn't work like that.

[@jquest99]

@@johnny10grasp3 NO one honestly claims they are male in the morning and female in the evening. Fundamentalists create strawman to scare people against trans. But transitioning is not some trivial exercise by people who are bored. This kind of strawman demeans the struggles that trans people go through in this society.

[@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2]

There are lots of really detailed, meticulous science that demonstrate that gender is a mental construct, with fMRI scams showing that the brains of transpeople resemble the brains of cisgendered individuals of their identified gender, rather than of their gender as assigned at birth. 👈 This is _physiological_ not a "meΠtal ¡||ne§§".

[@mikefarnsworth772]

I'm unclear on how animal gametes are not binary. Whenever animals engage in sexual reproduction, successful reproduction requires one individual to act as the female, and one to act as the male. Of course, either of the two individuals might have a mixture of male and female traits, as long as they can fulfill the role they are playing in reproduction. If they are hermaphroditic, they will likely act as both male and female for different fertilization events. However, each event of fertilization depends on a binary union of ovum and sperm. I can certainly appreciate that there is more to human sex than reproduction, but you talk about the sexual binary as if it doesn't exist at all, when in fact all eukaryotic life is based on a cycle of 1N cells joining to form 2N cells, which then split to make 1N cells. Eukaryotic sex is deeply binary. Again, sex can be more than just binary, but that fact that human sexual anatomy is 99% binary should not be a surprise. It seems likely to me that being technologically and socially advanced makes non-binary sexuality possible, since we don't have emphasize reproductive success just to survive.

[@gatorboymike]

Christofascists be like, "We can't allow people to be what they want! They might be something that I don't like!"

[@Angelum_Band]

Yet gender identification has all the characteristics of religion.

[@amtlpaul]

@@Angelum_Band You are one of the people I see here making sweeping dogmatic pronouncements.

[@roguedogx]

5:52 I forgive you jim.

[@roguedogx]

6:26 wait..... what? how did I not know this earlier!?!?!

[@roguedogx]

11:57 time crystals are my new favorite.... and no not just because they sound like something out of a sci-fi movie. that's only like 40% of it.

[@Tylerrl1664]

Love this

[@benjaminfranklin8412]

In the end, the hosts speak of empathy. One should be empathetic towards Christians. That doesn't mean one has to affirm what Christians believe....or support public policy or legislation drafted on those Christian beliefs. Same with certain beliefs about an individual's gender. Empathy is great. But what about public policy? How do we respond to beliefs about Chistianity or gender? That is why we should create policies using proveable facts such as biological sex (with respect for deviations from standard sexual development) That makes more sense than basing public policy on one's non-verifiable feelings about one's gender.

[@amtlpaul]

"Proveable facts such as biological sex." Biological sexes are categories. The criteria we use to slot people into them are probable facts. So people should be subjected to physical inspections to determine 'what they really are' as a matter of public policy? This is the way of empathy?

[@benjaminfranklin8412]

@@amtlpaul seems like requiring babies visit a doctor to have a general physical exam at some point would be good public policy. The doctor would observe and document the child's sex with 99.9 percent accuracy. If an adult wants to prove per biological sex was misidentified, per has another physical exam. How is that onerous or lacking empathy?

[@amtlpaul]

@@benjaminfranklin8412 Thank you for that irrelevant response. Tell me, Benjamin, are you a man?

[@benjaminfranklin8412]

@@amtlpaul If that was an irrelevant response, then your previous statement was not clear. You spoke of physical inspections and I addressed physical inspections. Could you clarify your point? Also, my biological sex is not relevant to this conversation; why are you asking?

[@benjaminfranklin8412]

@@amtlpaul The criteria we use to slot babies into categories are usually their genitalia. Far more than 99 percent of the time, the doctor can make an accurate observation of the biological sex. That is far more than a probable observation. However, of course, a tiny percent of babies are misdiagnosed....and guess what, the parents can take the child to the doctor for follow-up observations in response to indicators of deviations from standard sexual development. Scientific, humane, respectful, ethical. What is your concern?

[@larrydicus7822]

Sad that even biologist will lie about sex and gender

[@jonathansoles8926]

bro imagine being this dense lmao. just accept what he's saying is true

[@Blackbelt7497]

What lies?

[@gloriaf6971]

I am glad I listened to this explanation of sex and gender. Thanks, Forrest!!

[@jquest99]

It's amazing when people are actually open to learning things. And it's cool seeing people like Forrest who take joy in teaching. Science doesn't have the answers to everything, but it has a WAY better model of the real world than ANY religious texts.

[@rbwinn3]

I am a real welder and farm worker. I have been pointing out some mathematical discrepancies that appear in Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity in the comment sections of these atheist evangelism videos that atheists keep sending to my computer. What seems strange to me is that there are none of these educated people who can answer what I said. I have been posting my results with regard to relativity for about a year now, and atheists are strangely silent. So what are we to conclude? Atheists are very verbose and loquacious with regard to anything except relativity? I will keep conducting this experiment until something happens. Here are the equations Einstein used. x' = (x-vt)/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) y' = y z' = z t' = (t - vx/c^2)/sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2) Here are the correct equations. x' = x - vt Y' = y z' = z t' = t

[@adrianmargean3402]

Can I ask what this has to do with a belief in a god? Why is this a debate on the atheist experience? And why is this show losing credibility every day?

[@somethingeasy333]

1: Not much, but it's a call in show, the caller wanted to discuss it and the hosts were polite enough to entertain the caller, since both of the hosts have at least some experience and interest engaging on the topic. 2: Because some people link religion to right/left debates, and since trans acceptance is more common on the left, some people do see it as a part of religious debates, especially when their rejection of trans people is built on religious grounds. That being said, yeah, this particular conversation certainly doesn't belong here. Though the show is run by the hosts, so I won't tell them what to do or not do. To paraphrase what Matt Dillahunty might say to a caller being annoyed by the host interrupting them when they themselves aren't allowed to interrupt, if you don't like how they do things you're free to call in yourself, call in to another show or set up your own call in show. 3: I don't know. Why do you think it's losing credibility every day? I certainly don't think it is.

[@adrianmargean3402]

@@somethingeasy333 to me it started loosing credibility when it went woke. It use to be a show where people would call in to discuss the existence of a god, hence the name, the atheist experience. Then some people quit the show because they didn't agree with Matt Dillahunty on having a guest host that had made a video pointing out the fact that trans women have an advantage when competing against cis women in sports. A fact that is demonstrated and backed by scientific research. Shortly after, Dillahunty was accused of transphobia and left the show after a long time or arguing with the rest of the crew, and despite the fact that he is wholeheartedly subscribed to the woke ideology, especially when it comes to the transgender debate, one might say irrationally so, possibly due to the fact that he is actually dating a transgender woman. The show has gone so woke to the point where the host claims in this video that there is no such thing as basic biology. Imagine arguing with a theist and out of nowhere he sais there is no such thing as basic physics so god is totally real, because I identify as a person who believes in God. To be clear, I do not care about the trans debate or the alphabet club, but it does annoy me that somehow logic and reason is allowed when applied to religion but not sexuality or gender, or even biology according to the host. The show I use to like has been hijacked.

[@somethingeasy333]

@@adrianmargean3402 While I wouldn't say that dating a trans woman is definitive proof that someone is not transphobic, I do agree that saying Dillahunty is transphobic makes no sense. That being said, I think you may have misunderstood what Forrest is saying. He's not saying that basic biology doesn't exist, he's saying that what we are taught in basic biology is an oversimplification of the vastly complex processes that happen in the body, and to claim an understanding on the basis of "basic biology" is similar to claiming to understand the proof of 1 + 1 = 2 on the basis of "basic math". We are taught assertions that we learn to question later on. So when Forrest questions "basic biology", all he's saying is that at an advanced level, thing are much more complicated than these assertions we are taught. Not sure if its in this video or not, but he does bring up the fact that in basic physics we are often taught that there are three states of matter, when there is at least four. When I was initially taught about ionic vs covalent bonding, the understanding I had was that ionic bonds are strong while covalent bonds are weak. But after I advanced a little in my education, I learnt that in covalent bonds, the forces of attraction between molecules is weak, but the bond between the atoms within the molecule itself are very strong. So what I might consider to be "basic physics" is an incomplete understanding, which is required to get to and simultaneously replaced by a more complete understanding. The same goes for the biological aspect of sex, as well as gender, which consists of facts about how people feel in relation to their social and cultural context.

[@adrianmargean3402]

@@somethingeasy333 @somethingeasy333 well that makes more sense and thank you for clearing that up, however, I don't think I misunderstood his point, that is how he made his point, he stated "there is no basic biology". Having said that, biology has very little to do with the issue, I believe. The real debate is about psychology. I think that from a biological point of view, sexual preference or sexual identity is completely irrelevant. For example, my dog is a female. I don't know what it identifies as, but I know it's a female. Same for a human being, what someone identifies as has nothing to do with their biology. Or I should say that the only thing it has to do with biology is that thinking and consciousness is a result of a biological function. Nevertheless, I support everyone's right to identify as whatever they want to, even when it doesn't make sense to me, like "clown/clownself" . There are actually people that ask for these pronouns, I am not even joking.

[@Seethi_C]

Forrest admits that the fundamental definition of sex is gamete size. So please, mr science man, tell us about wide range of gamete types that humans can produce.

[@dannyd1098]

Apparently we're not allowed to disagree, question, or call out people who have a biology degree -- no matter how much they abuse that degree.

[@f.e.groenwold2073]

Some people don't produce gametes at all.

[@mindeyethemasterscreen2712]

​@@f.e.groenwold2073And zero adds how much to a binary of strict 1s and 2s?

[@f.e.groenwold2073]

@@mindeyethemasterscreen2712 There is no "binary". Some people deliver large gametes, some people deliver small gametes, and some people don't deliver gametes at all. There is no way you can tell to which of these groups a newborn belongs.

[@mindeyethemasterscreen2712]

@@f.e.groenwold2073 Once again sex itself is binary our classifications are not.

[@benjaminfranklin8412]

If we always talk about exceptions, meaningful dialogue would disintegrate. The hosts are disingenuous when responding to the caller, pretending they don't know what he means.

[@amtlpaul]

If we refuse to acknowledge exceptions, we are in denial of reality.

[@benjaminfranklin8412]

@@amtlpaul That is fair but if acknowledging the exception is used to mislead and imply that the rare occurrence is common, that is destructive.

[@serenaislinn4912]

@@benjaminfranklin8412 intersex conditions are as common as red hair, What's your point aside yet again asserting your transphobia

[@firstaidsack]

@@serenaislinn4912 Calling everyone who disagrees on this point "transphobic" is counterproductive. Sure, there are many transphobes but there are also many who just think that they're being factual without any moral evaluation of trans people.

[@serenaislinn4912]

@@benjaminfranklin8412 we have many studies giving string approximations for the number of intersex people. And similarly for the number of redheads. But yeah keep erasing intersex and trans people.

[@jaw065]

Great conversation. explained it in a way I understood. I actually had a lightbulb moment.

[@Mysterychannel12]

Gender and sex are synonyms when it comes to human beings ,sex is binary and therefore gender is binary ,redefining gender as a social behavior is silly and you need to argue for it. Forrest is not even a biologist ,you need balls to claim sex is not binary😂😂

[@monicadaniels784]

What is it about someone that they are so desperate to disregard all the facts and say, "No, no, no, I learned this in high school and no one can tell me different." Science changes based on new information. If one cannot adjust, they are not scientific in their approach. He is a biologist.

[@Mysterychannel12]

@@monicadaniels784 no he is not,he is a social anthropologist ,of course science changes but exclusively by demonstration of the scientific method,if you do not have it ,“science “ remains the same,science is just the method not an authority and the biology that you learned in(people are still learning ) high school ,does not change when you go to college😂😂

[@Mysterychannel12]

@@monicadaniels784 what scientific approach can you use to determine someones gender? Im tired of this stupidity,you are becoming worst than theists

[@monicadaniels784]

@@Mysterychannel12 It seems you have a fondness for excluding things that don't fit in neat little boxes. The science backs up the things he is talking about. The variations, they are real people and are not to be tossed from the conversation for the sake of your need for simplicity. Perhaps you might want to read up on some information that is a little more recent than your high school years.

[@Mysterychannel12]

@@monicadaniels784 “the science backs up what he is talking about”😂😂bro im really tired of stupidity,science is a method ,is not an authority,they are still teaching the same things in biology ,forrest is a sociologist,he is not different from theologists 😂😂there is no such a thing as “science says this” or “science backs it up” only stupid ppl use these phrases

[@vatsmith8759]

Animals have sexes, foreign languages have genders.

[@joshsheridan9511]

All languages are foreign to someone.

[@vatsmith8759]

@@joshsheridan9511 But we're speaking English.

[@joshsheridan9511]

@@vatsmith8759 What country are you from? Because my colonial cousins might speak English but we often don't speak the same language. By the way my op was a bit of a joke

[@amtlpaul]

Is this the 'a word can only have one meaning' theory of language?

[@vatsmith8759]

@@amtlpaul Not really, it's just that up until five minutes ago the word 'gender' was not used as a stand-in for 'sex' and most people only came across it when learning languages. (Of course, I accept that languages evolve.)

[@dannyd1098]

Forrest is hurting the credibility to this show

[@Twirly_Sticks]

How?

[@TheSurrealist.]

He’s really not.

[@mitchellkatz9906]

gender and sex are the same

[@Vic2point0]

Yep!

[@samburton9961]

so did you not even listen to the video??

[@kinglyzard]

6:20 No, not all shrimp are sequentially hermaphroditic. The shrimp we eat is, but Caridina and Neocaridina genera are dioaceous.

[@somethingeasy333]

@@markshepperson3603 First, hate to be that guy (what am I saying, of course I love being that guy) but it's citing, not siting. Second, no one is saying that the natural state of things should be the way we do things. You're misrepresenting what Forrest is doing. This "kink in the animal kind" (which seems to also use some religious terminology here, but that might just be me overreading) is merely pointing out that the biological dichotomies we have been taught since we were young aren't quite as ironclad as they may have been represented to us when we learnt them. He's not saying "Hey, because some shrimp species are hermaphroditic, therefore all children who have the slightest inkling that they are not the gender they were assigned at birth should medically transition." He's just saying "Hey, this exists in the natural world, so biological sex isn't so clear cut, and we should not treat it as if it were." If I'm misunderstanding or misrepresenting your point, please do correct me. Now, "human children looking on [TikTok] and wanting to cut their cock off after a 5 minute self assessment test on bodily dysphoria" is less a case of trans creators actively encouraging children to transition (these individuals do exist, but I think you're vastly overestimating their impact on their audience), and more of a society that rigidly defines what a gendered child is allowed look like and do. If societies start telling children that their gender and sex does not determine how their bodies should look like and how they should behave, I think even the idea of medically transitioning would become less central in these discussions, although transitions will obviously still happen because y'know, many people would prefer to have bodies that reflect who they actually are. So increased understanding of gender and sex will likely decrease instances of your at best extremely rare, at worst close to non-existent hypothetical, rather than encourage it.

[@somethingeasy333]

@@markshepperson3603 Forrest is unbearably...what? Or are you just saying he's unbearable, in which case why? I've already mentioned earlier why your previous comment may have misrepresented his point, and you didn't correct me so I presume I managed to convey my thoughts accurately, so what exactly is he unbearable about? Again, the craze is not because there are trans content creators that are encouraging surgical intervention, at least that's not the main reason. The main reason is because we live in a society that says "if you have a penis, you must do this or you will be bullied/ostracised", or "if you have a vagina, you must do that or you are wrong in some fundamental way". Then people who have one type of genitalia but experience emotions/enjoy activities that "don't correspond" to their presentation see content that says "hey, some people have had surgical interventions and they have become more comfortable with who they are." It's not the content thats causing the craze, it's that people feel rejected for who they are and feeling like the only way for them to be accepted is if they "look the part". It's when you feel like your physical traits defines what emotional/mental states/behaviours that you're allowed to experience/engage in that people feel like they need to change their physical traits. If our societies couldn't give less of a shit who had what genitalia and just accepted people for who they are, I doubt this craze would exist. And that's if the craze exists at all. Have you also considered that this "craze" exists not because there is a sudden jump in the number of people wanting to be transgender, but rather that society is only just getting to the point where transgender individuals can discuss their struggles without outright being told to suppress who they are because they're unnatural (it's still being done, but at least there now exists a community comprised of individuals who understand and are willing to support them)? It's similar to what happened when divorce became available and the numbers shot up. Divorce wasn't a craze or a fad, but it became available to those who have wanted/needed it for a long time but were told that they had to stay in the marriage for whatever reason, no matter how unhealthy it was. Now, there are those struggling with gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia, for whom surgical intervention will measurably improve their lives. Those individuals should have access to safe surgical intervention instead of feeling like they need to go to a back alley doctor. But no one is going to lop off their junk without putting serious thought into it. If you're going worry about the "craze", you should worry about why people, who you believe don't truly want to transition, feel like they need to.

[@zachrichardson5581]

@@markshepperson3603 become a craze? I think your letting the media influence your perception of reality. Hearing a handful of stories about kids asking their parents if they can have a sex change operation because they watched a tik tok doesn't make that a craze. It just makes it a handful of kids doing that. That's it. Telling the kids to stop focusing on it because in reality it doesn't matter is the correct way to go. They don't need to think about confining themselves in any way besides being a decent kid. You do that and you'll be pretty much golden.

[@alphagamma4582]

​@@markshepperson3603 if it's a craze, then let's remove all gender affirming care because of self harm. No more blue pills, testosterone shots, no growth hormones, no fitness supplements, no hair products, no razors for body or face, no breast implants, no make up. Those are all things that affirm a gender that one wants to exude.

[@maxrichards3881]

Clownfish are sequentially hermaphroditic too.

[@adrianmargean3402]

There is no such thing as basic biology? 🤔

[@JFrazer4303]

Yes, and it is very muddled and messy and nothing is simple.

[@adrianmargean3402]

@@JFrazer4303 that makes no sense. The opposite of simple is complex. But you can have basic understanding of a very complex subject. And what do you mean by biology is muddled and messy? I have studied biology and it doesn't look like that to me... Could you clarify please?

[@jurassicsmackdown6359]

There's basic explanations of Biology, but no. There's nothing simple about Biology, it's a complicated and intricate subject

[@adrianmargean3402]

@@jurassicsmackdown6359 could you explain what exactly you mean by that? You just repeated exactly what the first guy said.

[@ExsoLam]

​@@adrianmargean3402 The basic explanations are often not completely or literally true. Electrons as little balls orbiting the nucleus for example, or gravity as a fundamental force (it's a fictitious force and isn't a literal attraction between objects).

[@johnfitzgerald8879]

Caller asked a perfect question. There are a few combinations of details and usage that I find unclear. I'm confused about the point of "trans" woman or "trans" man. Man/woman/boy/girl being gender and we understand that is not strictly associated with male/female. So what is the point of the "trans" then? Is it to indicate the person's previous gender assigned at birth based on sex? And why? Why does that matter? It actually goes a step further than that when attraction is added. Current sex, current gender, and personal attraction of sex and of gender are independent categories. So, when I call my self a "man", am I presenting some preference of attraction? Why have names, not proper names, those are individual identification, but general nouns except that other's have a way of categorizing. I mean, I've never been asked if I am a man or woman. I have checked boxes on forms that, for some reason, someone wanted to know if I am male or female. I have really never wondered why except that I'm trained to answer questions on forms. The more this entire topic is brought up, the more I question what the whole point is except that, as we know, people get all excited about things when they associate sex to it.

[@TheSurrealist.]

The trans part is simply an adjective. Adjectives don’t negate the nouns they describe. The trans part doesn’t negate the woman part. The need for it is more so on a medical basis.

[@tracewallace23]

I figured it out!!!😳 It's been bothering me for a while😔 and I couldn't quite put my finger on just what it was🧐 Forrest has a very contagious mental disease😏 (some would say a disorder, but Not Me, I think it's a great step forward in our evolution)🤯 I hope that EVERYBODY catches it😁 Forrest's disease (sounds like a great name for it), presents itself with, a genuine happy enthusiasm and an empathetic understanding of issues related to emotions, knowledge, and science, and a Need to help others to better understand them all while also happily dispelling myths (religious or not) that are simply wrong. 🙂 If I ever see him, I'll buy him a meal, just to have a chat and see if I can "catch" his "disorder" 😁 LOL 😂🤣😂 I say "contagious" because even the hosts that he's around seem to be more empathetic and understanding than they are on other episodes🤔

[@GabeCoolwater]

This was presented so well. Facts, science and truth. Great job, Forrest! Too bad people in the comments still struggle with their brains to understand this... So sad.

[@Angelum_Band]

Fact is world population is 8 Billion people and that's too many. 3 the methods to stop that: War, family planification and/or homosexuality.

[@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2]

@@Angelum_Band so you also think that homosexuality is a leftist climate change policy?

[@Thronsohn]

why do you announce the pronouns of the callers? in 99% of the time that is totally clear

[@pmaspmas]

The sex of the person is generally clear. There are hundreds of genders. Have a look at the "gender wiki" (366 entries as of 2022-11-20).

[@Thronsohn]

@@pmaspmas that's nuts

[@Angelum_Band]

@@pmaspmas Religion should be a private thing. Gender identity is a religion.

[@jurassicsmackdown6359]

Why not?

[@TheSport78]

because they're woke

[@andrewsgaming8230]

I would mention to my dad about sex and gender being different and how intersex people exist and he would say “but that’s a birth defect”, like that dismisses sexual diversity

[@Satradelree360]

Be honest the Earth & Universe is of the feminine energy; be honest there is not such thing as male & female gene or chromosomes; be honest we all are females because we all have the X chromosome; the Y chromosome does not exist; a so-called Y is a mutated X chromosome; we are mammals; we have mammograms; the female and the so-called male who is a more muted female has tities as well; having more muted X chromosomes does not just deal with so-called gender or sexaul disires; the more MUTED X chromosomes that exist in the body has scientific finding that these muted X beings were serial killers & have severe mental disabilities and reptilian behavior.

[@pmaspmas]

There are only two gametes - that's what used to define sex. Using the words male and female when speaking of gender is somewhat analogous to the two uses of the word "theory" - the scientific one and the colloquial one. The colloquial one ends up being confusing in a number of discussions.

[@Angelum_Band]

Forrest parents were a female and a male. I wonder if he can dispute that.

[@Colorlightt]

My question is can a person even be shown to be wrong about their gender identity using scientific data? Or is it just a persons feelings and science can never demonstrate them to be quantifiably definitionally wrong?

[@joshsheridan9511]

My question is why such questions are being asked on an atheist site and not biology sites

[@CarissaNomadic]

There's so much information we take for granted as being true, but suddenly even if science says that a group exists, we can't accept their existence unless we have the capacity to finely scan for their sincerity? This reads as insincere double standard, and honestly if you have a substantial problem, you really ought to argue the data science is seeing rather than stoking unmerited hatred and fear of a group via branding them as suspect liars.

[@junetalon8796]

Yes in a clinical setting there is. The DSM-5 lists a bunch of differential diagnosis that would exclude a gender dysphoria diagnosis.

[@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2]

fMRI scans demonstrate that trans brains resemble those of their self-selected gender, rather then their gender assigned at birth. But also, do you ask that question about gay people?

[@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2]

Also, I think you mean "quantitatively" (or even better "empirically"), rather than "qualitatively", which in academia refers to a research methodology, that that originated in nursing, that interviews small numbers of subjects about their personal experience, then looks for common themes.

[@jamesmay1900]

The Wokethiest Wokesperience...

[@Vic2point0]

Sadly, yes, that's pretty much what it's become.

[@maxrichards3881]

Define Woke

[@jamesmay1900]

@@maxrichards3881 An overly enthusiastic, guilt ridden, compensating, virtue signaling, non ethnic social justice warrior who’s personal life is devoid of challenge, strife, racism, poverty etc and is in fact from wealth.

[@maxrichards3881]

@@gangstadrz9326 So you’d rather not know what people mean when they say words?

[@trisF1981]

No it's called Facts

[@kofiadosprempeh6965]

Black family man and atheist from Montgomery, Alabama, the buy bull belt 😊

[@donovanpierce6521]

Forrest I am very thankful for you and you're the greatest addition in the show. I do not understand how alot of the athiest experience debates with creationists on certain topics and make it very apparent they are not educated in that. It gives creationists the ability to say oh see the experts don't know anything it's a theory. Science, history, sociology, and religion are all readily available to be learned. I feel in order to make a valid debate you can't use the same garbage the other side is using. Alot of people I see on here do use that simplicity and it comes off from my perspective as being no different and having an agenda. Having you on is nice because you don't just make a biased argument. You make a valid argument. I've learned through experience it smashes debates and doesn't allow for much sensible retaliation. If I can say and show in history this didn't happen according to modern archeology then a claim is done. If I can show how evolution happens and show various forms of evidence it silences a claim against it. I guess long story short I wish the show would seek out more experts and less people mad at creationists but fail at backing up an argument.

[@guiseuppi]

And for the record I already miss you Matt

[@jquest99]

You miss his support of trans and the rest of lgbtq. That's very progressive of you! You can still hear him talk about trans rights on the channel The Line! Go subscribe. 😉

[@supertouring22]

Play a different record

[@quincyjones5676]

I don’t miss his shitty attitude lol he makes us atheist look like dicks

[@dandrechesterfield5411]

Sex is binary. Male and female. Gender is also binary there's just fluid scale of male and female archetypes and stereotypes that people fall onto. Some people nowdays would prefer to box you into a male female category if you're a little effeminate or if you are a male who likes males. They may say you're trans rather than just a gay guy who likes females stereotypes. It's odd that the far left has actually created more boundaries and labels for people rather than accepting someone the way they are.

[@amtlpaul]

Accepting someone the way they are- are you sure that's what you're doing when you're telling people how they are allowed to identify?

[@Vic2point0]

Agreed. And the proof is in the fact that, say, an extremely feminine gay man who likes all the things women are typically interested in, etc. yet identifies as a man will not be told by these people "You're a woman". Despite the modern definitions of "gender" confusing it with gender roles and norms, the truth is they'll favor circular reasoning (e.g., "A woman is someone who identifies as a woman") every time.

[@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2]

What sex is a person with XX chromosomes, but who was born and grew up looking and functioning as a male? What about someone with XXY chromosomes? Or someone whose sex cannot be determined by looking at their genitalia? Or someone who produces both sperm and ova? Or someone who is a mixture of cells that are XX and cells that are XY? ☝️ ALL of these exist in humans. If there are more than two possible options, an option that is neither A or B, then by DEFINITION it isn't "binary". There are a LOT more than 2 options for human sex, no matter how you look at it.

[@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2]

Also, trans ≠ gay. For example, transwoman (genetically/biologically male) can be entirely attracted to women, which you would describe as being "straight" (though she wouldn't). Further, she also doesn't have to be physically effeminate - this is not a requirement.

[@dandrechesterfield5411]

@@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2 well technically and literally those are people who have experienced a deformity. It’s so incredibly rare that most of those that you described are considered syndromes. So those people would be what they are… a rare person with XXY chromosomes is a person with Klinefelter syndrome. This is what I mean when I say people feel like they have to label that person outside of what they literally are. If they look like a girl they’ll be perceived as a girl. You can’t describe what it feels like to be a boy or a girl. It’s literally ineffable so leave it alone and let biology be biology.

[@mikefarnsworth772]

I don't see how the fact that sometimes women can't get pregnant means that pregnancy is not a characteristic of women. No organ or system is indestructible. Women have a capacity to become pregnant. That capacity could be operating anywhere from zero to high fertility. Likewise, a description of dragonflies would include that they have the ability to fly. There's no need to qualify this by saying that sometime dragonflies lose the ability to fly, since that can be assumed. I wouldn't draw the conclusion that we can't distinguish between flying and non-flying animals.

[@relic5752]

The point is that the definitions are not as solid as people think they are. Example: at what point is something a table? How many legs should it have? How long does it have to be? What do you use it for? What about things called tables that don't function for the previous question? Etc. You can not make pregnancy a universal quality for said definition if there are a vast amount of exemptions, the same way you can not define a table as a wood plank standing on four legs. That describes *a* table but not all tables. Similarly, a person who can get pregnant is biologically female and likely *a* woman, but that doesn't describe *all* women. Thus it ceases to be a useful quantifier. Also of note: essentially, you are implying that women who can't get pregnant are "broken," which, aside from being extremely callous, is a rather myopic way of viewing.

[@hiefia8568]

Why do you need a sex change if you are just as a woman/ man as a biological man or woman?

[@jamieoshea1681]

To help your gender dysphoria

[@scottelam3726]

While I agree that things are Non-Binary, the overwhelming distribution is probably higher that 45% - 45% - lots of smaller %... maybe even closer to 48-48-4.... As such, there would be normal and abnormal. and I think that's the term that is seen as offensive, but I don't see it that way. It's just a fact. What's would be better non-offensive name of the smaller percentage of folks? Maybe the real question is why do we need or want to name the category at all? Just seeking real answers that aren't offensive.

[@Angelum_Band]

You might be a father or maybe not.

[@chrisford7980]

As a life long atheist and long time supporter of this show; I have seen a huge change in the platform and identify less currently with the demographics.

[@countryinnmotel9824]

Not bigoted enough for you?

[@blackpilleddadli]

You're subscribed to Fresh and Fit, Ben Shapiro, Kevin Samuels... Yh with dogshit politics like yours I bet you do have a problem with facts

[@ajclements4627]

@@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature Still asserting your crappy claims without evidence I see.

[@gabriellavedier9650]

You could just say you got old. That's fewer words. Age is usually the best excuse lazy people have when another person wants respect and it scares them.

[@quincyjones5676]

Same. I’m not sure when gender and sexuality had anything to do with atheism 😂

[@Vic2point0]

Gender and sex are one and the same, and we've known this for a long time now. It's the very reason the roles we're expected to play based solely on our biological sex are called "gender roles" to begin with. And when you say "Gender is a social construct", what you're doing is confusing gender roles and norms with gender itself. So this is wrong-headed but perhaps more interestingly doesn't even work with transgenderism itself. After all, if someone adhered to all of the behavioral norms and socially constructed roles of a man but identified as a woman, which would they be? Furthermore, the notion of "feeling like" a particular sex/gender is incoherent because none of us have a basis for that comparison. We've all only been just the one gender, so we'd have no way of knowing the difference between "feeling like" a man vs. "feeling like" a woman, or indeed if there is such a difference at all. All of this is to highlight that transgenderism itself is incoherent. The continued failure on the part of trans advocates (including all of the "experts" and "scientists") to provide objective, workable definitions for terms like "man", "woman" and "gender" is a huge red flag.

[@GoodBrotherGrimm]

I can't imagine writing all this and being so, so wrong. It's embarrassing.

[@Vic2point0]

@@GoodBrotherGrimm What is it you disagree with and why?

[@GoodBrotherGrimm]

@@Vic2point0 Literally everything you spewed.

[@GoodBrotherGrimm]

@@Vic2point0 Christ, do you honestly think that "woman wear dress, man wear trousers" is genetic? Who gives a fuck what someone wears? I have enough actual issues to worry about before "That man feels more comfortable expressing themselves in a way that our stupid culture considered 'feminine', he must be stopped!" becomes a blip on my radar. The fact that you think that this is something worth arguing or defending just shows the privilege you have, and it's disgusting.

[@Vic2point0]

@@GoodBrotherGrimm Unfortunately, just making the claim doesn't make it so. If you can't present an argument for why you think you're right, no one has any reason to believe you are.

[@Kia044]

And to think this used to be an entertaining show that handled the religious and philosophical questions with brutal wit and candor. Shame it really went downhill since the original talent either left or were pushed out…

[@adamturowski3765]

It didn't go downhill, it just evolved. Hosts change and the show changes with them.

[@ajayrife]

@@adamturowski3765 you know what else evolved? Humans - a sexually dimorphic species.

[@xXdwebbXx]

@@adamturowski3765 You should know by now evolution isn't always positive.

[@timsmith530]

If it wasn't for the axp I wouldn't have understood atheism. Now I do. They don't have enough evidence to prove the existence of a God neither do they want it because they don't want a God

[@quincyjones5676]

@@timsmith530 so now let’s talk about pushing identity politics :D because that has everything to do with gods!

[@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2]

*Jason Ray ran away!* After claiming that he had an associate degree in biology, and declaring "sex is binary because gametes define sex", when pushed, it turned out that he didn't know what he was talking about, so he deleted his thread. That's ok, I have a copy! 🤣

[@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2]

*Final comment in thread:* @Jason Ray *You:* _"1. Biological sex is defined as gamete type"_ *You:* _"... there are only two gamete types and thus only two biological sexes"_ *You:* _"... 100% is binary, even people the are intersex only produce one type of gamete and not both"_ *You:* _"Biological sex isn't defined by chromosomes"_ *You:* _"except it's not more then [sic] that, _*_it's only gametes, nothing else"_* *You, now:* _"I never said that you must have gametes, I said said it's which gamete type you can produce AND in the case you can't produce gametes, it's falls to which gamete type system it's centered around, which one they would produce if they could"_ ☝️ Nope! There is no "and" WHATSOEVER, and further you were VERY VERY VERY clear: it's *_"only gametes, nothing else"._*

[@jurassicsmackdown6359]

OOF, GOTEM

[@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2]

@@jurassicsmackdown6359 yep. It wasn't close. What's hilarious is that this clown was claiming to have an associate degree in biology, but doesn't actually understand WHY gametes are looked at in determinations of sex, or HOW the information gleaned is subsequently used. He's also unaware the difference between species-wide sex phenotypical norms, and the specifics of an individual's sex expression.

[@RM-xr8lq]

gender is a social construct sex is sometimes binary depending on the definition, sometimes it is not. English words are neither static or singular unfortunately the lesser educated/abrahamics do not like these simple facts

[@ausnetting]

I get that gender, biological sex, and sexual attraction all exist on spectra. They also have a statistical distribution where most individuals can be divided into a set of categories. Humans like to abstract information into categories. Here’s my question. If my physical appearance causes many people to assume a social gender that I do not identify with, why would I want to physically change my appearance just to try to get other people to make a different assumption - especially if that change required surgery and hormone replacements that can have a permanent effect on fertility and come with significant health risks? If a person has body dysmorphia and believes they should be an amputee - we do not recommend they cut off a limb. But if they have gender dysphoria, we sometimes recommend they cut off their breasts or penis? I don’t understand that logic yet.

[@serenaislinn4912]

Nice use of an old transphobic argument. SMH At least you're recycling

[@quincyjones5676]

Biological sex does not exist on a spectrum. It’s binary so sayers scientists. The only ppl claiming it’s not are people without a science degree.

[@ausnetting]

@@serenaislinn4912 thanks for providing an actual answer to a serious question. Your response is why it’s so hard to have a discussion about sensitive topics. If you’re not 100% affirming, you must be phobic, therefore I can dismiss your question. Arguments that have convinced you may be insufficient to convince others. That doesn’t mean they can’t be convinced, it just means they have different standards for evidence.

[@ausnetting]

@@ookeekthelibrarian I will look at it. Sometimes podcasts are hard to get information from because they are either responding to a narrow question, or the episode topic isn’t well described. I’ll see what I can find.

[@junetalon8796]

Because there's overwhelming evidence that medical transition is beneficial for people who suffer from gender incongruence. That's why.

[@harmondraws]

When someone calls into talk, you don't turn it into an education segment, I'm 99% sure they put the caller on mute when they want to 'ramble'. It should be a back and fourth dialogue. It's damn near gaslighting to give a spewl on gender identity for 5 minutes and then go "have any questions? And then say they're wrong before they can finish talking.

[@quincyjones5676]

That’s how these young ppl do it now a days. Not here to educate but to be “right” and way a finger at anyone that disagrees.

[@joshsheridan9511]

@@quincyjones5676OK Boomer. And that's coming from another boomer

[@Sinless_Stone_Caster]

@@quincyjones5676 What's wrong with wanting to be right?

[@Sinless_Stone_Caster]

@@quincyjones5676 What's wrong with pointing your finger at anyone who disagrees with you? Let's get rid of the finger and use a green laser pointer.

[@harmondraws]

@@Sinless_Stone_Caster waving a finger at someone implies they're in the wrong, and it's condensending, it says I know more then you, without taking into consideration the depth of the other person's understanding

[@timsmith530]

Forrest doesn't know what a lie is

[@Mmmmilo]

You don’t know what truth is, buffoon.

[@Gambit0590]

You don't know what reality is

[@Angelum_Band]

@@Mmmmilo Your feelings are betraying you relax love.

[@Angelum_Band]

@@Gambit0590 Do you? And if you do how?

[@enigma1863]

So gender is more like a personality? Is it like saying you can only be an introvert or extrovert? Doesn’t society have to be on the same page when defining female vs woman?

[@TheSurrealist.]

More than personality. Expression, roles, self identity. Etc. Subjective sociological perception of sexual expression.

[@rammsteinrulz16]

I think biology is simple, I think the chemistry is what's complicated. That and humanity's tendency to overcomplicate things for any given interest.

[@DadeMurphie]

It's so weird to see an atheist show promote religious thinking.

[@GoodBrotherGrimm]

It's so weird that you think anything they said is religious thinking.

[@DadeMurphie]

@@GoodBrotherGrimm gender is the belief in a sexed soul. It's entirely religious. The hypocrisy here is off the charts. Show us the evidence this gender soul exists.

[@GoodBrotherGrimm]

@@DadeMurphie Gender soul? What the fuck is a gender soul? Recognizing that our ideas of masculinity and femininity is a societal concept rather than a natural one is not a religious view.

[@DadeMurphie]

@@GoodBrotherGrimm You tell me. That's the entire basis of the trans claim. They have a sexed soul detached from their physical body. It's mind body dualism no different from religion. Without that magical component the ideology breaks down to the reality we all know. They are simply pretending to be something they are not. In reality gender is nothing more than a synonym for sex. Having personality traits stereotypical to sex doesn't change your sex. A feminine man is still a man and vice versa. A skeptic can dismiss personal claims of being in the wrong body the exact same way one can dismiss a personal experience that a god exists. Neither claim can be validated by others or even the person claiming the experience. That is what is so ironic about atheists preaching this religious nonsense. They have to abandon all their previous lines of argument against theists because they have become them.

[@name-nam]

​@@DadeMurphiegender is not related to a soul, its related to the brain

[@dtrekcomms]

So what percentage of these variations make up humanity of our two gender norms 0.1% the best way to describe is we have two genders and within those two we have a wide variation, not a large variations of genders.

[@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2]

In what way are you using "gender" here? Do you include the gender identities of intersex people in your grouping that are outside the "norms"?

[@dtrekcomms]

@@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2 biological sex and or gender as this is a new term that only came about in 1955 and was originally used to describe a man women boy or girls and been expanded on as a definition. So yes I was referring to biological sex male, female and other - not dismissing other but only makes up 0.1% of humans born.

[@dtrekcomms]

@@ookeekthelibrarian the meaning don't change the context can and definitions expand ie meaning of marriage is a relivent example has expand to include same sex couples

[@quincyjones5676]

@@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2 even intersex ppl have one biological sex. They may have two genitalia but only one is functional and they still have chromosomes to show which sex they belong to. Human beings cannot be true hermaphrodites. We cannot have two fully functional genitalia that can reproduce with ourselves.

[@dtrekcomms]

@@ookeekthelibrarian you obviously didn't comprehend the words on the screen, if we can't have an honest discussion then there's no point continuing. God bless 😉 ⚛️

[@timsmith530]

So does our emotions deceive our eyes?

[@amtlpaul]

So outward appearance determines gender?

[@timsmith530]

@@amtlpaul So my emotions determine the opposite of my physical appearance?

[@amtlpaul]

@@timsmith530 First answer my question. If someone appears to be a man, that makes them a man, and if someone appears to be a woman, they are a woman? That's what you're saying?

[@Sinless_Stone_Caster]

@@timsmith530 You cannot use abductive reasoning in this kind of situation, you sinner!

[@timsmith530]

@@amtlpaul I asked first

[@cassandra.wladyslava]

I have to ask why Jim randomly brought up attraction and sexual orientation in a conversation about gender and sex. @_@

[@Angelum_Band]

I am not trying to extrapolate but aren't these in context?

[@JFrazer4303]

Because to the people who get bent out of shape about gays and trans, it is always all only about sexual behavior and preferences. Like the abortion & birth control debate, it is all always about sexuality and controlling how others behave.

[@cassandra.wladyslava]

@@JFrazer4303 I understand that. My confusion was in regards to when and how it got brought up in this particular conversation. I guess as someone who sees gender/sex/sexuality as separate things (save for the fact that one’s genitals are typically involved in at least 2 of those things) it came off as random. Especially since, unless I’m misremembering things, Jim was the first to bring it up. I hope I’m making some kind of sense. I’m terrible at explaining things some times.

[@ashleefelgate6969]

Thanks! Reading Evolution's Rainbow now!! 🌈

[@TheFunGun5]

Damn, the phobes are out in force. Full on damage control lol.

[@Angelum_Band]

Phobia = Fear Can you point to those who are experiencing fear?

[@TheFunGun5]

@@Angelum_Band "ItS nOt A feAr" We both know what your doing. Pretending to be an idiot to get away with bigotry just makes you a dumb bigot. And to help you out, since you seem to have trouble. Bigot: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices. (Merriam-Webster)

[@Angelum_Band]

@@TheFunGun5 You are rude.

[@TheFunGun5]

@@Angelum_Band Not an argument.

[@Angelum_Band]

@@TheFunGun5 Rest my case.

[@benjaminfranklin8412]

This clarifies why sports should be segregated by sex. Thanks!

[@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2]

Equestrian isn't. It doesn't even make use of hormone therapy.

[@viejolincanada]

I thought atheists would demand a more thorough explanation on why sex and gender are two separate aspects of a person. You are assuming something in the same way religious people claim that God exists: it's in the Bible. Gender is based on the "lived experience" in a female or male body. I know about living in a male body so let me talk about that. Because I've lived in a male body, my capacity for intimacy is restricted and sometimes censored because of the erection. Women, on the other hand, are free with their expressions of intimacy, including same-sex intimacy. Most women feel free to embrace other women without any fear, not because society says so, but because their body allows them. Men's bodies, with the erection, say no to same-sex intimacy. These gender differences in intimacy are not social but rooted in the body. Therefore biological sex and gender are tightly connected. Why do some people reject their bodies and claim to be the other gender? Probably shame about their body, like the case of a boy who wants his penis off because of the shame. Or girls who feel ashamed of being the objects of desire of men. I don't believe gender and sex are independent of each other. If anybody makes that claim, they better have a good proof. So far I don't see any proofs and anybody who doesn't believe in the supernatural power of changing genders is called a Transphobe. It's like me being called Godphobic because I don't believe in that wonderful loving God.

[@Ugg_Son_Of_Thogg]

People don't think with their body, they think using a special organ. The brain.

[@viejolincanada]

@@Ugg_Son_Of_Thogg Your point about shame is?

[@rainkidwell2467]

@@viejolincanada listen... You apparently converse with the likes of John Money, so just stick to your lane and try not to do anything creepy okay? You are... Something else, I don't even know what to say to you or where to start

[@viejolincanada]

@@Ugg_Son_Of_Thogg That's why I like Helen Joyce's views on the Gender issue. She is a Mathematician who wrote a best-seller book Trans (2021). She knows how think much better than anyone from any Gender Studies departments

[@viejolincanada]

@@rainkidwell2467 Oh, censoring of ideas....That's the only way the gender ideas can survive scrutiny.

[@vinesco5270]

🤦🏽‍♂️

[@Seethi_C]

How does a shrimp going from male to female prove there are more than two sexes? If anything, it reinforces that there are only two

[@RichardEnglander]

Gender is a euphemism for sex. Some feminists in the 60/70s decided to separate them because it suited their needs. At no point did that mean that sex and gender became something different to all of us. Those feminists don't control what we think or the definition of words. Sex and gender are the same thing.

[@benjaminfranklin8412]

Having more words expands accurate communication. Nothing wrong with that!

[@RichardEnglander]

@@benjaminfranklin8412 it isn't more words, it is appropriating and then redefining existing ones. Why do you twist?

[@amtlpaul]

So we can all decide what those words mean to us? Fine. In that case, for me, they mean different things and you can't say I'm wrong, and you can't say transgender people are wrong.

[@RichardEnglander]

@@amtlpaul what terrible logic. You just proved the point really, the feminists decided to redefine the term, you see how silly that is, yet you go along with it because it suits your biases. And so it goes So much for objective reason and all that

[@amtlpaul]

@@RichardEnglander Excuse me? I used YOUR logic: "you can't tell me what words ought to mean." That goes both ways, buddy.

[@Treerootz1]

LMAO

[@Lupinemancer87]

There is no difference between Gender and Sex. If you wanna have two seperate words, then Gender is whether you are male or female and Sex is the action to make to create more of you, that's it. In fact, in many languages there is only 1 word for gender, meaning they are the same.

[@TheDevilsDaughter47]

That last sentence makes absolutely no sense, because I could counter it by saying that in English and many other languages, we have two different words for those things which means they can’t be the same.

[@quincyjones5676]

@@TheDevilsDaughter47 idk we have different words for the same thing. Like fa@g and cigar, or pu$$y and vagina. They mean the same thing but can also be interchangeable.

[@TheDevilsDaughter47]

@@quincyjones5676 I’m pointing out the flimsy reasoning in the comment of the person I replied to.

[@quincyjones5676]

@@TheDevilsDaughter47 oh fuck…. This is what happens when I get high lmao my bad

[@mindeyethemasterscreen2712]

Sex and Gender are the same thing I'm sorry to burst peoples bubbles but the majority of English speakers throughout the world use the terms interchangeably this is how language works words have definitions and their defined by the majority unless the majority says otherwise and the majority hasn't said otherwise so people need to stop this narrative that sex and gender are 2 different things when their not.

[@Angelum_Band]

Well since these religion requires to make a distinction the proper thing is to ask for sex instead of gender. Now asking for sex identification... that is lol.

[@feffiescottage]

The addition of Forrest to the AE is a stellar thing. I think he really carries this show now. I still think AE needs to rethink their politics and beg Matt to come back. I think letting him leave was a big mistake. He might not please everyone, but he is a great balance for Forrest's science-backed arguments vs Matt's strengths in philosophy.