Real Lawyer Reacts to Star Trek TNG Measure of a Man (Picard Defends Data’s Humanity) // LegalEagle

[@LegalEagle]

Indochine suits > Data's yellow bodysuit: bit.ly/2IeeB8W

[@Kingdom007Hearts]

If you like this trial episode. I also recommend later trial episodes for both Warf and Picard.

[@JimCullen]

Objection. This is essentially a military court, and Data is military personnel. Surely wearing his military uniform is what you would expect, regardless of whether that would be considered acceptable under other circumstances? Perhaps he should have been in dress uniform though...

[@rashodjohnson1389]

Objection in the star trek universe all of those court proceedings would be recorded by Hologram not stenographer Therefore all physical motions and actions would be recorded and notable By hologram

[@Syndr1]

Objection.The guy who gave the thumbs down is a star wars fan.

[@frogsinpants]

Objection! Cultural imposition.

[@Khaleslie]

Objection: Data's "yellow jumpsuit" is his Starfleet uniform and his decorations in Starfleet are an important part of his counsel's case.

[@sarahschmidt2782]

*gavel bang* Sustained. Defendants military uniform is recognized as reasonable and respectable in court.

[@nathanhook8351]

He should have worn the formal dress uniform version rather than his everyday uniform.

[@ramdattaropemaker9009]

He just said that to plug his sponsor

[@wtf44mate]

To be technical that would be BDU or (Battle dress uniform) vs. Formal Class A's. However, everyone else was wearing BDU's as well.

[@garyseven710]

The only caveat I might add is that, given this formal legal proceedings, that perhaps he should've worn his dress uniform instead of his regular duty uniform

[@chcikety]

Objection! Data's jumpsuit is technically his military uniform, which is proper court attire.

[@StarkRG]

Not to mention literally everyone else in the room is wearing almost the same thing...

[@uknownada]

Plus this is 400 years in the future. Some elements about court and lawyering could stay more-or-less consistent and universal for a fair trial, but etiquette for clothing can easily change.

[@HellfireCignus]

Actually this is his day to day uniform and not his dress uniform which they wear to greet dignitaries and so forth. So he should have went with his other uniform. Or Indochino.

[@rocket396]

In the future we will wear are tighty space pajammies to Court lol

[@briandavion]

in fact wearing something other then the starfleet uniform everyone else was wearing would have made him stand out more and potentialy be seen as "not one of us" now they proably should have all been in dress uniforms, but the TNG dress uniform looks hidious anyway so I'm glad they skipped that

[@pelewads]

By giving him a command rank, and placing biological individuals beneath him, Star Fleet had already answered this question.

[@Crusader1089]

That is part of Picard's evidence, showing his achievements and medals and star fleet record.

[@aidanwotherspoon905]

He also (kind of) made that point early on in this video

[@peterpetrasko1083]

Sort of yes, sort of no. If we're using the context of the us military for Star Fleet, there is precedent for officers who are not "people," and even for those officers to have subordinates. Canines in the military are granted ranks as Non-Commissioned Officers, specifically a higher rank than their handler. So Data being an officer doesn't necessarily require him to be a person. However, the military rank would, if drawing on this precedent, still probably grant him a certain degree of rights and protection against battery and other abuse which would mean he probably couldn't be ordered to participate in Maddox experiment.

[@柴田あーち]

Absolutely. I love this episode but the man is third in command of the Enterprise. You can’t take that away from him. His position is evidence enough that Starfleet believed him to be a sentient being.

[@sampaiosamps9930]

But isn't the ship in a way in the same ballpark. It is trusted with the lives of the people in it and it can give certain commands that are followed under the discretion of the people. I still think a mechanical mind still should have rights under circumstances such as Datas. But his position as someone with authority can be perceived differently and as a tool for an end without humanity Not that that's the right think to do, as i said i think in that case he is independent, just not under those foundations

[@johntaggart979]

"Starfleet was founded to seek out new life. Well, there it sits!" Such a powerful line in one of ST:TNG's best speeches. While technically not a good legal tactic in a courtroom, this speech truly defines the question of what Starfleet means by "seeking out new life", and demonstrates Picard's commitment to that principle.

[@GueCalColombianTropicals]

I wish there was a love react here just for this comment. This is one of Picard's best lines. Absolutely one of his best monologues.

[@GueCalColombianTropicals]

Every time I come back to this thread, I reread your comment. Absolute gold!

[@lfrands]

@@GueCalColombianTropicalsmeeee toooo! ❤ I mean, I totally agree with you lol

[@CheyenneRandell]

this episode makes me cry, legit, every time

[@hanksimon1023]

Since this is a legal focus, one of the literary tropes is overlooked. If you go back to Isaac Asimov's "I, Robot" the title character wants to be declared as being human and having human rights [sound familiar? ;-) ]. Part of the story, the robot controls a major corporation, and over many years, the corporation makes legal challenges as to the humanity of people who have prosthetic fingers, hands, legs, eyes, organs, hearts, and maybe memories and brains [I don't recall the details. ;-) ] Star Trek doesn't have the time to develop this for Data, so they condense it into one Court case, then leverage the results in other episodes. I think this episode is a nod to Asimov [Not too big a leap from considering Asimov's Positronic brain! ] Now, allow me a big leap! I think that Apple Corporation, which has Trillions of dollars In resources, may be playing a similar game, not with robotics, but with standards and technologies, incrementally losing many small lawsuits that may appear to be against Apple, but could be part of a long term strategy towards technology standards that fit a need that Apple is about to reveal in the next 5 years. That used to be part of the marketing genius of Steve Jobs ... to create devices that we didn't realize that we needed: iPod, iPhone, iPad, and Vision Pro. They didn't 'invent' the initial devices, but they help to change the industry to make them easy to use, intuitive to use, and then indispensable...

[@drakesavory2019]

I always thought Picard should have objected and say, "I'll turn a human off too." and knock Riker unconcious.

[@fmailaender]

He has a phaser to do it. And with the technology of Star Trek he could have used the same phaser to cut off his Arm. They have the possibility to regrow limbs. Wonder if the judge would have allowed it if he would have asked for permission. 😈

[@skz5k2]

Spock used to "turn off" humans quite often

[@AzurezeroArt]

@@skz5k2 he also used to turn them on :3

[@spaceclaw1958]

Legal Episodes of Star Trek; Tribunal Rules of Engagement

[@theguy3500]

I literally said the same thing when I watched this episode

[@chloejessica7961]

i think when Picard objected to Data's hand being removed, it was out of sheer outrage for his friend being demeaned in such a way. then he realized that that wouldn't carry any legal weight and withdrew it.

[@GueCalColombianTropicals]

He had an argument if he had thought about it, but at that point his outrage clouded his reason. The argument is that assuming he is found to have the same rights as any other being, this would not be asked nor allowed without permission. The argument is very easy, & quite clear.

[@cd-zw2tt]

Since the hearing pertained to Data's right to choose, it would be prejudicial for the prosecution to be allowed to remove it without consent, as bodily autonomy is a given right to living beings, and that he would be presumed to have that right before it was challenged.

[@GueCalColombianTropicals]

@@cd-zw2tt This is exactly what I have been saying. You do not infringe on the rights you are establishing a being has in order to establish or challenge them. There have been others arguing that it wasn't an affront to the rights being discussed because Data won't be harmed by the act. I attest that he is harmed in that his right to bodily autonomy is infringed upon. I mean its not even a hard sell this idea.

[@cd-zw2tt]

@GueCalColombianTropicals One striking thing at the end of this episode when Data formally refuses the procedure, but then the next few episodes he provides detailed daily logs to provide to Maddox. Really shows Data's true commitment to helping, even for his potential butcher.

[@danb9460]

@@GueCalColombianTropicalsit would be battery. Even if it wasn’t physically harming it could be interpreted as deeply insulting and demeaning as an individual.

[@floriandanna2534]

Objection: There is no stenographer present... I would assume this whole proceeding is holoregistered, thus the judge's nod would actually be enough to enter the bar into evidence.

[@cassuttustshirt4949]

Damn, that's a really good point.

[@Bravohalo]

Holocapture isn't allowed in Federation courts.

[@Purpleturtlehurtler]

@@Bravohalo it is equivalent to our current videography.

[@floriandanna2534]

@@Bravohalo Hmm? Where is this cited if I may ask? Holographic evidence surely is allowed in Federation courts (see the episode where Riker is accused of murder)... It would stand to reason that if a method is "good enough" as evidence, it would hold up for record keeping too...

[@ireallyreallyhategoogle]

I was about to write that. Assuming stenography is still used in Star Trek is very naive.

[@jonblumenfeld8884]

The writer of this episode, Melinda Snodgrass, actually went to law school and worked (briefly) as a lawyer. Also, the idea of the commanding officer defending and the next highest ranking officer prosecuting is how it works in the US Navy when no JAG officers are available - for example when the ship is at sea far from any port. C+ seems a little harsh, especially when you take into account the dramatic license necessary for a TV show, which you acknowedge.

[@smalltime0]

I'd agree with that if the Enterprise was in deep space at the time, but they're docked at a starbase near the Romulan Neutral Zone for a crew rotation, they're not away from port. They literally visit the starbase again 7 episode later to pickup an ensign. Not only could they have probably just waited for another prosecutor, they could've waited for a proper defence attorney (although, I think commanding officers are still allowed to be defence at tribunals, right?). Now if it were a voyager episode, they'd have to make do.

[@aserta]

@@smalltime0 That's if the Enterprise were a ship of the Navy. But this is the future and Star Fleet. Certain aspects of the show harken to more archaic aspects of the captain having more than just management attributions (be they command or just plain staff and stuff). Not far fetched that Picard (or any other captain) on a ship with that many occupants is to be the defendant. They are the captain's people, therefore, the captain's responsibility to defend. I'd say it's a good method to foster responsibility both in command and commanded (on account of not causing the commander of the ship trouble). They are travelling to more than just a Starbase in episodes.

[@haravikk]

​@@smalltime0 Starbases are still limited by the personnel available; Captain Louvois (acting as judge) does actually point out that her office is newly established and she has no staff yet, which is why she wants Picard and Riker to act as the advocates, as it could otherwise take weeks to get someone suitable out there. And to avoid such a delay she threatens to make some kind of summary judgement instead if Riker won't take on the responsibility. Under normal circumstances she would probably have staff that can act as advocates without conflict of interest, but the office being new is given as the reason why Picard and Riker have to do it, so it's a reasonable excuse for the added drama.

[@Nickanj]

@smalltime0 Have you missed the part of the episode wherein the JAG indicates that this is at this point a brand new base and that she has no staff at this juncture, and therefore must conscript serving officers?

[@AnonymousAnarchist2]

Not just the creative license, there is also the setting of the show, a minimalst hiarchy, communist, military based science driven, society.

[@abherbitter]

Objection! You skipped over the scene where Piccard requires Data's full service record to be read. This was a great move by his defense.

[@JoshuanKnode]

Alexander Herbitter Goes back to Kirk’s trial in the original series

[@KingoftheJuice18]

@@JoshuanKnode Indeed. I'd like to see LegalEagle do that one!

[@danielpasilis4046]

Irrelevant police and military working dogs have rank, service records and are even given awards and commendations but are still regarded as property

[@PrinceAlberts]

Daniel Pasilis : Interesting point. I’d never thought about that.

[@Lalfy]

@@danielpasilis4046 Either way, it would have been interesting to discuss.

[@Skullbash258]

“Sentient beings don’t bring onesies to a court”, literally a court full of people wearing their onesie STARFLEET UNIFORMS

[@dhkatz_]

I'm pretty sure it was a joke

[@Moorhuehnchen]

not to forget for all their pacifism: starfleet is a military organisation making this very court a military one. wearing one's uniform to court is the propper dress for such an occation. one could argue he should have worn his dress uniform instead of his "work/combat" uniform

[@RandyHawkeye]

Poor legal argument, but excellent segue way for his sponsor!

[@waynemarvin5661]

I'm 30 percent sure his obsession with Data's attire was to reference his sponsor. He had no comments at all concerning the other characters' Uniforms, and they were all wearing the same pajamas.

[@theguywhoisaustralian1465]

that joke flew over your head at warp 9

[@rogersmj]

“I think these questions would have been solved when Data entered Starfleet...” Well yeah, and if not then, then presumably before he rose to the rank of Lt. Commander and third in command of the fleet’s flagship.

[@xilj4002]

An experimental AI might enter training, now we feed it information, but sitting through academy could as well work in the future. Donald Duck has a US military rank. And I think a few cats, too. In certain situations the Doctor (meeical hologram) can overrule others pulling authority, and while it's only tangentially relevant because of timeline and a unique situation, we have seen the Doctor gain temporary commanding rank, and I don't think he was ever deemed a person (only an author). Therefore we can assume rank is not necessary tied to personhood. This means that Data might have been through the academy as AI training, and got honorary / acting ranks on ships as part of that experimental training. Part of that might have been Star Fleet acquiring him (there are also laws about lost, mislaid, unclaimed, and abandoned property, and very likely salvage laws, Data might fall under one of those)

[@GFAprodite]

Dogs Are Given Rank In The Military…

[@catwiesel_81]

in my head canon its everybody just assumed rightly so that data is what would be the equivalent of a person, which, in world where many different live forms are the norm, many of them may even be aliens, as in, not a part of your cultural, political, geographical, national group. i.e. aliens from outseide the federation still being treated as persons by habbit, and not only after court battles - so they let him join the acadamy, starfleet, and so on. there is probably a lot of law regarding aliens/none federation members joining starfleet, but all in all, its probably not dealing with the question of sentients, it would be listed as a requirement. so some recruiter somewhere made the checkbox for data [x] sentient... and on it went. now, 20 years and a stellar career later, some dude with his own agenda is challenging this assumption because - reasons - and we end up with one of the best star trek episodes ever. yeah, okay, depending on how bureaucratic, full of lawyers the federation actually is, the question would have come up sooner and be laid to rest one way or the other. and data himself might have pushed the issue, kinda like a immigrant going for citizenship because, well because it grants you certain rights which you may not want to miss when you might need them some day... but, I dont think there is no way ever where there might be a federation that is so naive, so good at heart, so lovely dovy that they dont just assume the best always, and the question of sentience never came up because it always is given, until someone forced the issue, kinda like your boss suing you to prove that you are human so you have rights and cant be treated like a robot and work 24/7...

[@ebinrock]

Yeah, it kinda makes this whole episode's premise stupid, although otherwise the writing and acting are solid.

[@BOYVIRGO666]

Id be more concerned why the top brass of the federation didnt get involved in this since Data has the medal of honor. Which implies that an admiral gave him a very high honor. I dont see how this would have been an acceptable court ruling without starfleet admirality being involved.

[@princessakhana]

I'm always surprised that they fail to bring up the point that Data paints. He doesn't just copy other artwork, he creates his own unique compositions with many artistic techniques found across all possibilities. It's spawned from originality, it's not prompted by other people telling a machine that they want a self-portrait in a certain style, for example.

[@jonathans.972]

Right! Also, if they were to argue Data is just copying styles and techniques to create something unique in the aggregate, then they don't understand how humans work either. That's exactly how most humans develop skills.

[@sethmaki1333]

He also develops his own style when playing music and in acting.

[@ZacLowing]

Elephants can paint, that's not a good defence.

[@ClaudiaRamos-ov3xh]

That's beautiful

[@markrichards9646]

Funny. This exact issue is currently being argued in the media. Can art generated by an AI be considered original art and copyrightable?

[@thegardenofeatin5965]

Objection! A non-verbal nod will likely suffice in a Starfleet court room as the record is no doubt recorded holographically.

[@PrinceSilvermane]

I would still think that making it clear that it was allowed would still be best, even with the holographic recording in mind.

[@jerodast]

@@PrinceSilvermane How is a nod and handing the rod back to Riker to proceed not "clear"?

[@willieoelkers5568]

Counter objection! Starfleet deals with dozens of cultures who presumably have very different body language and nonverbal cues. A nod could mean any number of things depending on the species and culture, while a verbal statement indisputably communicates intent.

[@princedavid54]

@@willieoelkers5568 A nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse.

[@HappyLarry.]

@@willieoelkers5568 Counter counter objection! They understand the human culture as Starfleet is a majority-human organisation, making a vertical nod known as a confirmation.

[@norman5927]

Point that was NOT addressed: They spoke of "property" and used the ships computer as an example. Starfleet built the computer, Starfleet did NOT build Data. Even if data was determined to be 'property' he would not belong to Starfleet.

[@mdheinze57]

Right! He signed up, he was not purchased.

[@michaelpettersson4919]

@@mdheinze57 Add this that his creator consider Data to effectively be his son.

[@nancyomalley9959]

@@michaelpettersson4919 And Soong was still alive at that point-too bad they couldn't find him and have him testify for Data

[@MichaelFienen]

This has always been the point that really breaks this episode for me. Data was allowed to voluntarily choose to join Starfleet under the same terms and conditions as any other cadet (presumably). That very fact subsequently undermines any argument that he can't choose to resign, or is now Starfleet property as a result.

[@nancyomalley9959]

@@MichaelFienen Agreed! All because some selfish scientist(Maddox) doesn't like being told 'No, he can't do that' He can't walk all over others' rights to satisfy his research

[@saschaschneider9157]

"... Your honor, Starfleet was founded to seek out new life: well, there it sits! Waiting." - This Episode contains one of many considerable speeches in Star Trek. I get goose bumbs every time i watch it.

[@ENDERLICOT]

HOW MANY LIGHT ARE THERE?!!!!!!!

[@saschaschneider9157]

@@ENDERLICOT THERE. ARE. FOUR. LIGHTS!!

[@Thinchap]

@@saschaschneider9157 Wrong human. Look again, there are five lights. But seriously, yeah, this episode has me in tears every time :)

[@PatrickPease]

Dont forget the fancy rolled Rs with a nice english accent

[@willhuey4891]

great episode too.

[@stefanlaskowski6660]

This is not really a trial, but a military tribunal or hearing. It's bound to have some differences than civilian versions, not to mention that ST:TNG takes place some 300 years in the future and laws will certainly have evolved somewhat. All in all, one of Star Trek's better episodes.

[@allenfunstuff]

Congratulations your argument is forward the very important point that the lawyer judging this is not from the judge advocate general's office and is not accustomed to military trials thus his information maybe invalid and certainly he does not qualify as an expert all in fun LOL still true though

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

@@allenfunstuff I think he knew he was doing this for fun. And that obviously there may be non-applicable legal things in fictional future.

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

He’s also working from a US Government perspective. The United States no longer exist and technically the Federation is an institution of it’s own while having it’s primary location be on Earth at the time of TNG, is much like the Military (technically they aren’t military, they are actually more like NASA and an exploratory not military organization.). It’s an institution with it’s own regulations that are institutionally driven and not necessarily even within the purvue of earth.

[@Knightwolf1994]

He should've brought that JAG lawyer along since Starfleet is basically a space navy.

[@benjamindeh873]

TNG has a lot of amazing episodes. And most certainly this is one of them.

[@lakkakka]

Objection. The trial wasn't about data being human. It is clear he isn't. The question for the court to find an answer to is "Is Data and should Data have the rights of a sentient life form or a mere tool?".

[@Mandemon1990]

Indeed. At no point is argument made that Data is human or deserves human rights. Question is "Is Data a sentient being and thus entitled the rights of sentient being?"

[@SubduedRadical]

@@khamjaninja. I mostly agree, but remember the episode with the three little floating robots? I don't remember what they were called, only that they gained sentience. Data proposed asking them if they had a plan they were willing to carry out, and they did. The initial plan was basically to do something that would destroy them, and to force them to do so by programming. In their own plan, though, the three joined together to stabilize the power core or whatever, but couldn't be beamed out, so one of them took on all the effort so the other two could be beamed out, thus sacrificing itself for its fellows. I don't remember the episode, but that dealt with this same/similar question, just in a different way. The idea being that a manufactured being is NOT automatically assumed sentient, or even a lifeform.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

As Picard says it: "Aren't we machines made from different elements" All those makeup aliens are externally and functionally not too different from humans. Sure, some things are slightly different, but that hasn't stopped the federation from accepting their rights. So far Data is just another example, but because he was made by a human and is not biological in nature, they don't know if he should have the same rights as all the aliens they encountered.

[@kevinshumaker3753]

@@SubduedRadical The 'robots' were Exocomps, and the story was "The Quality of Life".

[@Civsuccess2]

Data's real programming code name is Alexa.

[@Boltizar49]

“Good news, Data. We’ve successfully argued that you do possess a soul.” “I thank you, Captain. If I may ask, how did you accomplish this?” “Well legally you’re haunted.”

[@menacelurkingyet8345]

Don't be stupid Data, you can't handle the truth !!

[@Purpleturtlehurtler]

@@menacelurkingyet8345 THINK, DATA! THINK!

[@tubaszuba]

HA! I get it!

[@awkwardllama0509]

This was pretty clever, not gonna lie

[@MissingRaptor]

😂😂😂😂😂

[@CaptainVryce]

the best part of this episode for me was the end, how ashamed Riker was and Data told him it was ok because Riker sacrificed his beliefs in order to help give Data the chance to be free.

[@gamerleal9265]

If Portal 2 came out before this episode, I bet that Data, to further encourage Riker's attendance, would have said "there is cake I assure you" or something to that effect.

[@ireallyreallyhategoogle]

Which should have never happened in the first place. An unwilling prosecutor is not very legal.

[@simonjohnston3100]

It injured you and saved me. It will not be forgotten

[@cowsagainstcapitalism347]

I love how even though Data was technically "unable" to experience emotions, he thoughtfully expressed his gratitude and forged genuinely strong friendships. He taught himself to grow beyond his programming.

[@gamerleal9265]

@@cowsagainstcapitalism347 Not to mention that one time fling with Tasha Yar.

[@howardallan7849]

Data was already recognized as a person. They didn't give the computer core of the ship a military rank. Data has rank, therefore he is a member of his crew also recognized as a person. You should also take a look at the episode Lal.

[@benjamindeh873]

I dont think Lal's episode has as many legal implications as this one. It is a good episode, but not with as much legality as this one.

[@chris_the_most_humble]

I agree, this question would surely have been answered when he wanted to enter Star Fleet Academy and become an officer. I'd have to think the first Star Fleet exam Data would have taken, he would have been failed for using ChatGPT and this question had to be answered then, but still good story to set it in the current arc of TNG.

[@mkalut4823]

Unfortunately there is a major flaw in your argument that actually would've been one of the stronger arguments for Data not having rights under the law. Currently in the U.S. military service dogs are given a rank just like their human counterparts, yet animals are still recognized as property. As such unless this practice had changed by the time of ST:TNG the fact that Data holds a military rank wouldn't have proved his personhood as property could still hold a rank like any sentient species.

[@robertadorian4234]

So, very often, at least now, lower courts overturn decisions made by other groups, even the military. Also, the argument can be made that all members of Starfleet are, technically, the property of Starfleet. You can be ordered to enter a situation where you know you will die. You go where they tell you, do what they tell you, kill if they tell you. And die if they tell you.

[@PyroGam3s]

@@mkalut4823 I like the way you draw that parallel with the military dogs. I was going to say even though data went through training like everyone else and received a rank, it would actually be conceivable that they gave him a "honorary" rank of commander so as not to incite dissent among the other officers, crew, or cadets. Of course this is just my theory to make the situation fit narrative, I don't believe there's any real lore to it. But it could make sense if they haven't by then actually figured out what his inherent rights were at the time, opening the door for a future episode such as this.

[@NathanielTavington]

Objection: Starfleet is a Pseudo-military organization where members are expected to appear in uniform whenever they are on duty. Data's uniform is entirely proper attire for a court proceeding.

[@lordomacron3719]

I would argue that while true it would the ‘Dress Uniform’ and not the everyday uniform that would be worn in a Starfleet Court.

[@Halinspark]

Objection: Starfleet is an actual military organization, not pseudo-military or paramilitary. The Enterprise's role in exploration is irrelevant, as both the United States and Soviet navies have used various warships in an exploration role in the past. They have warships, weapons, and bases, and they are expected to participate in battles.

[@lordomacron3719]

@@Halinspark Starfleets Primary Purpose is NOT to combat. It is Not designed for the purpose of waging war. To be able to defend one's self does not automatically mean it is a purpose-built war machine

[@samurphy]

@@Halinspark The Defiant was the first ship designed as a Warship since the Federation/Klingon war. There's a reason all Federation ships seen up to then were run like cruise ships, with families and massive recreation facilities. Despite what Section 31 was doing in the background, Star Fleet, as an organization, was not intended to be a military organization, but one of exploration. Retconning notwithstanding, of course.

[@TKDWILSON]

I would agree, HOWEVER, Data resigned. The whole case is about whether he is allowed to resign. If your argument is you are allowed to resign, first step is to not be wearing the uniform.

[@ichigo11220]

This whole trial was actually a master play on Rikers part as he pretty much elaborately threw the case despite trying to win. He kept establishing character and garnering sympathy for data as he displayed how cooperative and civil data is while in a trial for his life. Even going so far as shutting off his processes and leaving the courtroom in grim shock at witnessing a man they've just been talking to collapse into inaction. Some Galaxy brain shit right there.

[@josephrittenhouse5839]

Riker definitely threw the case.

[@un0RRS]

And he did it while doing the only thing he could do to make the ruling legitimate, being a zealous advocate for the prosecution. You could never say he didn't try forcefully to prove his point. And he lost the case because of it. Data figured it out. Thanked him for it at the end of the episode. It killed Riker to treat him that way, and Data knew it would. And he knew Riker only did it to save his life. Data was smart.

[@commenter0012]

@@un0RRS Data's an android. Of course he's smart.

[@hobozero]

@@commenter0012 Data is a toaster

[@noth606]

@@hobozero You are an eggroll.

[@Shanbo26]

"Can't see a reason for that objection" How about, "My crew member shouldn't have to be dismembered by the prosecution?"

[@gamerleal9265]

Or "How would removing Datas' arm be any different from me removing, let's say, the Prosecutions' arm?" "Oh, your basis is that that arm can be detached and reattached.? Need I remind you that, with our advancements in medicine, the Prosecutors' arm too can be reattached?"

[@zincwing4475]

@@gamerleal9265 Not perfectly, or without damage.

[@gamerleal9265]

@@zincwing4475 Possible. Yet, there was an episode where crew members were being abducted and having medical experiments done to them. One experiment, was that Rikers' arm was separated and reattached but was, iirc, 3 microns off and had to be corrected by Dr. Crusher.

[@roetemeteor]

@@gamerleal9265 Yeah, that's actually a viable thing at this point. You could surgically remove someones arm and put it back exactly the way it came in the 2300's forward. You could easily just argue you could remove anyone arm, you just couldn't put it back as easily. Not much of an arugment, and neither was "BUT HE COMPUTAR BRAIN AND MADE BY MAN, SO HE BLEEP BLEEP I BREAK NOW."

[@gamerleal9265]

@@roetemeteor Truth in that. However, what would be the case of a person with a robotic prosthetic? Couldn't the prosthetic be put back as easily? We are really starting to splice hairs here. In addition, Riker did not mention anything in regards to the difficulty level(s) of reattaching limbs. At the same time though, Riker may have said what you have just said had Picard said what I said.

[@pluviosity]

It's almost hilarious to realize that the "fling" with Tasha in Naked Now is one of the thing that saved Data from being dismembered.

[@Z1gguratVert1go]

good point, but I don't think they wanted to dismember him. I'm sure the Federation can already make piles of humanoid limbs, I think they literally want to take his BRAIN apart. If they just wanted to borrow his arm for the afternoon he would have let them do it.

[@GueCalColombianTropicals]

I do not think it was the "fling" which was a 1 time sexual encounter. I think it was how Data viewed the encounter, the memorabilia that he keeps of her, its sentimental value to him & his aversion to recounting the event due to Tasha's preference in the matter. Basically, it wasn't what happened, but how it affected Data & his views that was important in the case.

[@Z1gguratVert1go]

@@GueCalColombianTropicals I agree. While he may be emotionless himself, his careful and thoughtful handling of her needs implies that maybe even if he has no feelings, he can accommodate another's feelings and that might be close enough.

[@Demigord]

@@Z1gguratVert1go he literally said he would dismantle him

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

@@Z1gguratVert1go I think even Data himself confused what emotions were. At times he was more emotional then most Vulcans are. Like the time he helped a little girl against orders and protested his own kidnapping as a collector’s peice (and seemingly even acted against his own programing). The ‘emotion chip ‘that was eventually introduced seemed more to increase sensation then create emotions. Like a lot of people think neurodivergent people do not present ‘emotion’ the way people outside the spectrum do. They may also be unaware of emotions in others without direct words to explain. But they don’t lack emotion. Also I believe a scientist can program sensation not emotion. The fact Data bonded with or even wanted a cat to the extent of caring about it’s care in his absence is a sign of emotion.

[@KingBobXVI]

"You generally don't want to do that" _furiously taking notes_ Don't... remove... defendant's... hand... ...Got it! Thanks for the very much legal advice :P

[@krieghart5515]

I think all Riker proved was that prosthetics don't disqualify you from being human. Data is basically a walking prosthetic but is still autonomously using his prosthetics. Imagine a world where we can replace every visible part of the human body with a prosthetic while sustaining humanity and autonomy. Would you still be you after undergoing this procedure? Would we maintain human rights for the "ghost in the machine?" I would think so.

[@d_9696]

The bailiff will tackle you

[@julietfischer5056]

@@krieghart5515 - That was the original concept that Gerry Davis and Kit Pedler had in mind for the Cybermen. At what point does humanity end and machine begin.

[@OliveEaters]

*puts away cleaver.*

[@astra3310]

Wait you’re supposed to leave it attached? Woops....

[@daredaemon8878]

Objection! This is clearly a military court rather than civilian court, and these are military uniforms. You don't wear a suit to court martial, you wear your uniform. Why would this be any different?

[@steveleeart]

Dare Daemon agreed. Maybe they should wear the dress uniforms? But I don’t think they had those yet on the show.

[@TheMadHatter248]

They should be in dress uniform though.

[@Dargonhuman]

Overruled, the only reason he brought up the uniform was to plug the video sponsor.

[@undrhil]

@@Dargonhuman Sustained, ad revenue should not stand in the way of any rulings.

[@Krystalmyth]

@Steve Lee @Mike Yao They were in the field. At an outpost. Hence why Data didnt have a legal team, and why Picard and Riker had to join the defense and prosecution. This was a setup to screw Data on a lesser court. By having him deal with this away from Starfleet Command and the media. This would be like a court martial in Iraq/Afghanistan/Kuwait/etc. You'd wear your combat uniform.

[@rfrolicarts]

The writer of the screenplay, Melinda Snodgrass, was a lawyer for three years before quitting to become a science fiction writer.

[@GMLSX]

Now this makes me happy.

[@rfrolicarts]

@@GMLSX In her words, she "loved the law but couldn't stand lawyers"

[@kekistanihelpdesk8508]

Less lawyers makes the world a better place.

[@tshcktall]

@@rfrolicarts lawyers rather create silly vids than helping people. Makes her sympathetic to me.

[@EdgardoCervantesP]

Wow I did not know that. Thank God she did and gave us one of TNG top episodes.

[@umdisc64]

The writer of this episode is a lawyer, and also has a college degree in History. That is why this episode was written as it is and probably why she wrote into the script an analogy between the android's case and Scott v. Sanford.

[@friendlygiant2314]

I was surprised that it was never brought up that Nunyan Sung created Data, and not Starfleet, so they have no right to claim ownership of him.

[@fandomfanatic2001]

@ but they never made Data join, he joined voluntarily

[@krashandburn]

You could say data design is intellectual propery

[@bigdream_dreambig]

But Dr. Sung is deceased with no heirs (though there are some underlying complexities), so maybe Data would be legally considered salvage or treasure.

[@killnotic]

Finders keepers.

[@jasonm2091]

True. But the episode is about what makes a man, what is consciousness, and what is life. It's not about what makes property.

[@matityaloran9157]

Objection: All of the officers are wearing their regular uniforms to the Data hearing implying that Data’s attire was appropriate

[@chrlpolk]

Yeah well, that whole point of that criticism was to plug overpriced custom suits at the end, so…..

[@matityaloran9157]

@@chrlpolk I didn’t know that at the time

[@alansalacain2193]

Regardless it is a valid objection as he is wearing his uniform

[@matityaloran9157]

@@alansalacain2193 Thank you

[@st3faniem1]

@@matityaloran9157 I think they all should wear dress uniforms though. It is common for military personnel to attend trial or court martial, but do so in dress uniform, not casual.

[@vasyear]

I listened to the comantary track for the episode and there are a few things i've found out about it, 1. the writer of the episode was a lawyer and 2. the writer was a good friend and worked with Gorge RR Martin (game of thrones creator) and it was his agent that submited the script to Maurice Hurley (co-excuative producer at the time) 3. The writer had assistance from the US Navy's lawyers in writing the navy aspect of the show and Picard being the defense lawyer and Commander Riker being the prosacution lawyer is Navy law 4. the episode WAS based on the Dred Scott v. Sandford

[@DanielCooper1]

The writer/lawyer in question is an amazing novelist in her own right and runs a company as well as still writing for screen. She's who I wish I could have grown up to be if I ever grew up.

[@w41duvernay]

As a Black guy who reads history, when this episode came out. I FLIPPED out that the highly vaunted Federation wanted to go down the road of Dred Scott decision. WTF!

[@HauptgefreiterB]

@@w41duvernay Good thing is.. they didn't in the end. And we got one of the best episodes of TNG out of it.

[@serban031]

@@DanielCooper1 NAME. WE NEED A NAME. Sorry for shouting, but I wanna know whos this woman is now :D

[@DanielCooper1]

@@serban031 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Measure_of_a_Man_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)#:~:text=It%20was%20written%20as%20a,the%20Federation%20starship%20Enterprise%2DD.

[@wraithflaire1639]

Actually That's a common misconception she doesn't rule that data is a Person. What she decided is that since Starfleet cannot measure consciousness they lack the ability to determine Dita's personhood. The matter of wether Data is a person or not is pending the development of such a test. In the intern she granted him the right to choose.

[@SanjayMerchant]

I dunno, in part of her statement (opinion?) at the end, she says she doesn't know if Data has a soul and immediately follows with "I don't know that I do." Which could be read as explicitly putting Data in the same category as a human when it comes to such questions.

[@wraithflaire1639]

@@SanjayMerchant explicitly is quite an stretch. It is tentative at best. She never explicitly says whether or not having a soul is an requirement for personhood.

[@robertfivecoat1654]

You made it slight mistake. They weren't trying to prove that Data was human, merely that he was a sentient being entitled to the rights of all sentient beings in the known universe as such.

[@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat]

And more important than sentience, sapience

[@kukalakana]

Well yeah. I mean, Worf isn't human, and he has rights.

[@an_oracle]

To be fair Picard had to go out of his way to make that distinction in the episode, which implies up to that point it could've been misconstrued as attempting to prove he's human. It makes it a fair mistake if the characters are making that mistake as well

[@yudhobaskoro8033]

@@guyincognito8440 actually its a little bit deeper than that, in star trek universe u can "define" literally anything as a sentient as long as it can be proven under federation law, and on the universe where a planet, nebula, to a mere goo on the ground that can replicate other living being as a sentient being it can get really complicated, so there's no rights of a human, but there is a right of a sentient being and data seems to fall to that category, oh yeah i forgot to mention, an AI can be sentient in star trek universe, yea its crazy i know but it is what gene envisioned for star trek

[@yudhobaskoro8033]

@@guyincognito8440 ohhh yeah if federation is run by a tyrant earth then it is true, the alternate reality in star trek picard season 2 can confirm that, anything but a human is not to be treated the same as human, but the "real" reality in star trek main timeline not every member of the federation is a humanoid-sentient-being, there's only sentient and non-sentient beings under federation law, there's no segeregation between any species on any planet on any quadrant, any form of life can be considered sentient or non-sentient, data is made "human-like" bcs data is engineered by starfleet scientist, any synthetic being made in vulcan and q'onos can be made to look like a vulcan or a klingon so yea human-like or not doesnt matter here, the key to data winning the trial is bcs data can proof data is sentient (no gender pronouns here bcs data doesnt have one LOL)

[@artembentsionov]

If Data was considered enough of a person to join up, then he has the same right to leave. Can’t start moving the goalposts when it’s convenient.

[@Knutterbife]

You've never been in the military have you? Lol. Stop loss.

[@SonicsniperV7]

The military can refuse your resignation as an officer or reactivate you at any time so they can refuse his leaving.

[@SC-zq6cu]

@Jackalofdeath Data hasn't committed any crime, even according to millitary law. Him being ruled as a property and not an autonomous being directly contradicts starfleet previously acknowledging his personhood. Even if they can regulate his entry and exit of starfleet without his consent, carving him up without his consent will be illegal since carving any innocent military personnel is illegal and data has already been identified as a person by the starfleet the moment he applied for starfleet.

[@discomfort5760]

@Jackalofdeath Correct. Rights cease to be on the battlefield anyway.

[@kamenridernephilim]

It’s Star Trek socialism they the goal posts all the time. Much like in real life socialism doesn’t work even in fiction.

[@moonsaves]

My first argument would be "can anyone in this room say that they aren't created by one or more human beings?"

[@margaretforsey7763]

moonsaves Haha great point!

[@schmilew1230]

true

[@billyfitzgerald3442]

This is one of those double entendres, as it works both on a meta level (taking into account the show's writers), but also, of course, on a biological level. If you wanted to take it to an extra meta level, I suppose I would have Picard grab one of the cameras and lift it up to show the room had no proper ceiling.

[@blacktimhoward4322]

That's not rational. By that logic, a toaster has rights

[@moonsaves]

@@blacktimhoward4322 It isn't rational, that's why it's not a very good question to ask.

[@mirandagavrin5644]

It was correct of the judge to overrule Picard's objection about the steel bar, but it was also correct for Picard to make it, and here's why: if he throws in objections when he sees an opportunity, it makes the process look more adversarial and makes it look like Riker is doing an adequate job as a prosecutor. Doesn't change anything about the case, does make it less likely that the judge will decide Riker isn't pretending to be a prosecutor hard enough and ragequit.

[@sylviaelse5086]

Objection: Removing Data's hand is a violation of his personal autonomy, and allowing it prejudges the very issue that is before the court.

[@gnosticagnostic9326]

He has been prejudged, Picard is challenging that judgement

[@amigajoe1]

If it was a person with a prosthetic you might get away with it to make a point...

[@sylviaelse5086]

@@amigajoe1 You might, but a prosthetic is clearly not a part of a person's body. Data's hand is a part of his.

[@drkirkland79]

@@sylviaelse5086 That's interesting: To say you can remove the hand is to assume he is non-autonomous, and to say the you cannot is to assume that he is. Perhaps you could argue that Data is just a collection of prosthetics, and it is only his "mind" that is up for debate.

[@klop4228]

@@drkirkland79 That argument makes removing his hand entirely irrelevant, though iirc that was part of Picard's argument

[@Suthek]

Objection: This case deals with wether or not Data possesses rights as a person. One of these rights is that of bodily integrity. Therefore, unless and until it is determined he does not have these rights, removing his arm should not be permissible without his, not the judges, consent.

[@LordSandwichII]

But the premise to start with is that Data does not have those rights, and they are arguing to change that law. Surely, therefore, Data would be assumed not to have those rights until it is ruled that he does.

[@Suthek]

@@LordSandwichII Actually, for the trial it would have to be assumed that he does, since he's the defendant. Similar to "innocent until proven guilty", in this case any ambiguity (in this case, whether or not he has rights) should be interpreted in favor of the defense unless and until the prosecution manages to prove otherwise.

[@scottbissonnette514]

I wish he had seen and responded to this comment. I’m with you on this one

[@iamme4552]

Except the judge gave permission. Perhaps not expressly to remove the arm, but it was given for the line of inquiry.

[@iamme4552]

Suthek Because this is more or less a case covering a gap in Federation law she is making it up a little as she goes.

[@aquariusblack6356]

Objection! He didn't technically kill Data by turning him off; the human equivalent would be rendering Data unconscious. Similarly, you could argue that the action was akin to a Vulcan neck pinch on a human being.

[@TakumiJoyconBoyz]

It would still be considered assault though.

[@t_k_blitz4837]

The main difference is that this was a deliberately-designed and -built off switch, in no way akin to, say, a blackjack to the back of the skull or nerve pinch, irrespective of how expertly delivered.

[@jonwallace6204]

You could also argue that a doctor of that time could also remove and reattach a human’s arm.

[@t_k_blitz4837]

@@jonwallace6204 Right, but Data's comes off by design.

[@absolutcabbagery3661]

well, rendering someone unconscious might also be killing them, as explained here kzbin.info/www/bejne/pIKrc3SaiM2aj6s

[@jimsnow9493]

It's worth noting that the Star Trek TNG blu-ray release has an episode commentary by the original author of the script, Melinda Snodgrass (who has a law degree). Apparently when she floated the idea of the script it took a bit of work to convince Roddenberry that there were still lawyers in the 25th century.

[@EWRPVM]

There’s literally an original series episode about Kirk on trial for murder where he gets legal counsel, Roddenberry was a bit crazy at times honestly

[@zimriel]

we still have intestinal flatworms in the 21st century

[@ric7044]

@@EWRPVM Well, TOS is set in the 23rd Century. TNG is in the 24th. Maybe lawyers were abolished in between :D :D

[@Neville60001]

24th century.

[@tree_alone]

Objection: They dont wear suits like that in the future and at a military hearing you would wear your military uniform. Oh you're doing a sales marketing thing. Oh.

[@darthfixer7853]

Perhaps but in the TOS episode with the court martial of Kirk... everyone was in their dress uniforms, not their everyday uniforms.

[@captvictor]

@@darthfixer7853 indeed, they should have had the Dress Uniforms ;) that always bugged me about the Episode

[@corshani]

@@MrChefdouglas Are Scotts Humans? was the Federation founded by humans? Are there many other cultures on earth whose formal dress for males includes a dress- or skirt-like tunic or other visually similar garment? Yes to all of the above.

[@corshani]

@@captvictor I think the fact that the station was not fully equipped and staffed yet was part of the reason; if the Judge isn't wearing a formal uniform then it would be a breach of protocol for Picard and Data to be in dress uniform. You don't out-dress superior officers.

[@nunyabuizness2953]

@@corshani She and Picard are the same rank though. And I think the doctor who wanted to dissect Data is also a captain.

[@CanadianSoshi]

Objection Not a trial, it is a hearing and therefore all statements are not required to be questions for the witness.

[@blackonblack...9244]

In fact, it's a military hearing.

[@angel1584]

32 UCMJ reference?

[@marhawkman303]

@@angel1584 well something similar.

[@tananam9782]

This is an interesting distinction. I don't recall the author of this video ever pointing out the procedural differences between a hearing and a trial. Perhaps this observation requires more attention. While we're at it, maybe he could explain what a trial is, and what a hearing is, and why he seems to presume trial procedure is appropriate here. No, wait, he won't. He doesn't care. This is an advert for cheap lawyer suits for cheap lawyers. He did his job already.

[@gabriellamar2683]

@@tananam9782 That's because under American law, a hearing is technically a trial, albeit a "mini trial".

[@jerrymcgahan9205]

If I were arguing Data's case, I would have argued that Star Fleet already recognized Data as a sanctioned human being. The evidence of this begins with his uniform and his rank as Commander. Furthermore Data attended Star Fleet Academy where he earned his uniform and then worked his way up the ranks. You then have fellow Star Fleet officers accepting and following his orders.

[@Bl00Buttons]

Right. If he were "just a machine" to be used as a tool, rather than an individual, then why would he have had to go through the academy at all?

[@ugolomb]

@@Bl00Buttons Well, Maddox did object to his application to Starfleet. But his objections were overruled, a fact that could (and should?) have been cited as evidence for Data in the present trial.

[@Bl00Buttons]

@@ugolomb That's basically my point, yes. :)

[@JayTemple]

I had a similar argument. I said the fact that he had to enroll in Starfleet (or be admitted, or some similar thing) means that, regardless of whether he is sentient, he is not and never was the property of Starfleet.

[@tonybarrett8543]

As the lawyer said these issues would have been long solved, they wouldn't have allowed Data to join in the first place if not. It's just a case of writers trying to bring to the fore questions that have arose about robotics, AI etc. over the last few decades. Star Trek has always challenged topics that face humanity in the now. We have to allow improbability, such as this being the first legal case reflecting Data's position, otherwise the show would be just another run of the mill space adventure. I really like his analysis but not sure how implementing it in a short script would work. They use the short time to interweave various courtroom proceedings but some points could definitely be taken onboard.

[@warriorlink8612]

Agreed with the C+ for legal realism, but Patrick Stewart's delivery in this episode is A+! My favorite part of this episode, and really of the series, was the closing conversation between Riker and Data. Man that was deep and full of layered development and foreshadowing!

[@RBAWintrow]

Guinan explaining what Maddox wants is to create a race of slaves was also very good. "Utterly disposable people who cannot disobey, one on every ship!"

[@robt6654]

@@RBAWintrow & @warriorlink8612. Yes, the trial, the conversation with Guinan, the closing conversation - the dialog is A+ throughout. Best. Episode. Ever.

[@Hornerandassociates]

Fun Fact: This was written by Melinda Snodgrass who was a lawyer before becoming a writer. She also has written a supernatural law series called White Fang Law.

[@IkethRacing]

well, she got a C+ which explains changing careers 😉

[@Hornerandassociates]

@@IkethRacing Hardly. Because of that. But wouldn't expect someone thick to get that.

[@agranero6]

@@IkethRacing The problem is that real law procedures are difficult for audience to follow. If for instance Picard took Data to stand to counter argue the engineer arguments this would made cause and effect difficult to follow. If sometimes even members of the jury fall asleep, imagine doing that on a show.

[@honourabledoctoredwinmoria3126]

@@agranero6 It can be done effectively in a real legal context. Look at My Cousin Vinny. Devin gave that movie an A for legal realism, and no one would argue it is boring. When Vinny questions the guy across the street who was making the grits during the murder, he carefully does not state an argument, which is that the guy couldn't see what happened and has no sense of timing. But he does brutally get the guy to establish the facts which will make his case, that his view is obstructed and that he spent at least 20 minutes making breakfast between when he saw the defendants enter and when he saw the presumed murderers drive off. He does it again with the matter of telling the car from the tire tracks. The actual argument is a mere formality, because he established the facts so clearly. That could have been done in the episode here. Picard could have cross-examined Riker about whether the Crab-people of Viruna 6 or wherever have removable limbs, as to whether you can shut off a human by giving them a strong sedative or the Vulcan nerve pinch, as to whether Commander Riker was constructed in a human womb for 9 months. Or call a different witness like Dr. Crusher and ask those things if Riker is not deemed an expert on biology. And then he could call Maddox and ask about how Maddox, as an expert in intelligence, would determine that Picard or any other human is sapient. We probably wouldn't even need to see Picard argue at the end about any of that stuff, because we'd know exactly what those questions were going to allow Picard to argue. All you would have to do is rearrange the order of what Picard says and what he is trying to establish and what he is trying to weaken about what Riker establishes.

[@agranero6]

@@honourabledoctoredwinmoria3126 You should have defended Data. Very strong arguments.

[@solanumtinkr8280]

I'd like to point out that it is the equivalent of a military court and he'd be expected to turn up in that yellow one piece as that IS his required uniform. IN fact he may even be punished for not turning up in it.

[@codeoptimizationware2803]

@Solanumtinkr : Furthermore, since the others present, even the presiding judge, no less, weren't wearing the regulation formal dress uniform ( here's Lt. Cmdr. Worf in formal dress uniform memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Starfleet_uniform?file=Worf_dress_sash.jpg ), were instead wearing their regulation work uniforms, perhaps Data should've likewise, which he did.

[@strangeworldsunlimited712]

Exactly. In this setting, they are conducting a military trial, so military uniforms would be expected. However, DRESS uniforms would usually be worn in such a situation.

[@Dargonhuman]

@@strangeworldsunlimited712 Pretty sure the actors objected to that (see what I did there?) as the TNG dress uniforms were even less comfortable to wear than the regular ones, and shooting an entire episode in them would have been torture.

[@SeamusDonohueEVEOnline]

Solanumtinkr I came here to make that same objection. :)

[@codeoptimizationware2803]

@Solanumtinkr : And Data's (and Worf's) uniform is not yellow but gold, Gold for Operations (as differentiated from Blue for Science & Medical and Red for Command).

[@ravensdalepublishing277]

Objection! At the 12:25 mark, Picard's objection to Riker asking Data to bend the bar is a good objection on Picard's part. His point, in essence, is that the ability to bend a bar of steel may support the argument that Data is not human; however, it does not support the argument that he is not a person. There are several sentient species in Star Trek capable of bending steel, and they are granted personhood and rights under Federation regulations. Therefore, as the trial is intending to determine whether Data is a person, not whether he is human, the demonstration of bending a steel bar is irrelevant to the argument and the trial at large. By the way, we love your videos!! Keep them coming! :D

[@GamesFromSpace]

Not to mention, they have very advanced prosthetics, and could probably give that ability to any homo sapien.

[@Pierce1996h]

@@GamesFromSpace Khan could probably bend certain steels too. He broke Kirk's phaser with his hands.

[@singletona082]

@@Pierce1996h Genetically augmented persons (regardless of species) are legally barred from serving within starfleet to avoid the problem of fostering a culture where everyone must augment. There are implications that augmented indaviduals are similarly discriminated against within the civilian sector in federation held territories.

[@58jharris]

The guys who take part in Strongman competitions can bend a steel bar.

[@SirMarshalHaig]

@@singletona082 I found that pretty weird. As you said, an ungly case of discrimination, based not on ability or personality, but purely of genetics. In a way not better than judging by skin color or sex.

[@ominous-omnipresent-they]

Data is easily my all-time favorite character throughout the _Star Trek_ franchise. "To seek out new life and new civilizations." Data isn't human; he's new life.

[@iamsemjaza]

Picard, not being a lawyer, probably just found the idea of removing Data's hand viscerally objectionable, and spoke on instinct, which is why he withdrew.

[@iamsemjaza]

@Joe Dick That works too.

[@micahman6873]

It violated Data's body. He found it unethical.

[@robshimer]

And it was prejudge al (?)

[@qpwodkgh2010]

A humans hand can be easily removed as well. It's a bit messier, but doable.

[@SnowyRVulpix]

​@@qpwodkgh2010​As far as I know, you generally need to do damage to the human body to remove a hand... Plus you can't just reattach it without surgery. You could with data's hand. Which doesn't prove Riker's point, though.

[@oooChickenatorXooo]

1:53 Objection! Commander Maddox is not a member of Starfleet Medical. He is the Associate Chair of Robotics at Daystrom. (Blue uniforms do not exclusively mean Medical; they mean Sciences Division) .

[@mdyoung1971]

Actually, blue does denote medical, green is the color for science if you watch the show carefully.

[@LyonHall1]

@@mdyoung1971 blue is also designated for Science

[@evag_is_Mycroft_holmes]

mdyoung1971 Actually the show was pretty inconsistent. Sometimes even doctors would wear green and science staff would wear blue. At least that’s what i read

[@mdyoung1971]

@@LyonHall1 The explain why Dr. Crusher ALWAYS wore blue.

[@tekcomputers]

​@@mdyoung1971 Blue denotes sciences division, Sciences division includes medical and mental health. Both Science and Medical is blue in the TNG uniforms. The "Blue" division color denotes Starfleet Sciences which includes both medical and mental health. As such science medical and conselors all wear the same division colors. The "science and medical" having different colors myth during TNG came about due to the color shift with between the Type B normal service uniform and the Type D dress uniform as used through first half of the 2370's (Season 4 of TNG and later) as the medical/science "blue" color was abit greenish in the dress uniform as opposed to the normal service Type B uniform typically worn where it was a lighter blue than the type A's worn during the first three seasons. This is primarily due to the fact that the Type D uniform is made of a different fabric than Type B's. This episode occurred during season 2 when they were still wearing Type As as teh normal duty uniform and the science and medical division uniform color was a deep blue. Commander Maddox is a sciences officer, specifically a cyberneticist. The shade of blue of his uniform is the one that both medical and sciences would wear during that time period.

[@martinstent5339]

“He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien (Actually Gandalf says it).

[@offroadr]

So about the large hadron collider...

[@martinstent5339]

@@offroadr The LHC is just rearranging quarks. Not breaking them Sometimes it makes new particles, sometimes it makes particles dissappear in a flash of photons (Gandalf would like that trick!)- but it never breaks them.

[@offroadr]

@@martinstent5339, You do know that the entire purpose of the LHC is to take big partials such as protons and lead ions and smash them together has hard as possible to make them break apart to see what they break down to don't you? I also assume you know matter can not be created or destroyed, just mutated. So it can not really make new particles, just new combinations of subatomic particles. So the LHC literally breaks a thing like a lead ion to find out what is left. Now one argument you could make is wise, but that does not appear to be the argument.

[@martinstent5339]

@Zoe Kin Well, as a closet logical positivist, I am 100% with you there when you ask for a definition of “break”. But things are not that simple. Is a quark a real thing, or is it a mathematical construct to help us to understand the symmetries of fundamental particles? Do we break a number when we subtract another number from it? Or does the number still remain “out there” somewhere, like the Mandlebrot-set still being “there” even when nobody is looking at it? As I understand our present knowledge of the quantum world, we live in a soup of virtual particles which can be brought into existence by energetic collisions, as can existing particles “decay” into other particles and so go out of existence, and that process is continually happening everywhere. In this world of uncertainty, does anything truly get “broken”? Who can say?

[@orantenhove9825]

funny thing is gandalf is played by Sir Ian Mckellen who is Sir Patrick Stewart's (Capt. Picard) best friend

[@scrungozeclown836]

13:50 Likely the objection was something to the effect of this: this entire trial will decide whether or not Data can be dissected without his permission, and Ryker is asking the court to dissect him without his permission to prove they should be allowed to dissect him without his permission

[@chadtiemeyer2175]

I think there is also that Picard just objects to the dehumanizing demonstration. His objection isn't based on court proceedings.

[@amysuarez2456]

Picard: "Data -- I understand your objections. But I have to consider Starfleet's interests. What if Commander Maddox is correct? There is a possibility that many more beings like yourself can be constructed." Data: "Sir, Lieutenant La Forge's eyes are far superior to human biological eyes, true?" Picard: "M-hm." Data "Then why are not all human officers required to have their eyes replaced with cybernetic implants?"... “I see. It is precisely because I am not human."

[@hypoelectron]

#heartbreaking

[@animateddepression]

3 years later, part of Cadet training is being blinded.

[@almostfm]

Data knows how to make a point, and run it through the 5th intercostal space.

[@nickllama5296]

This entire episode is SO FULL OF FREAKING AWESOME SHIT LIKE THIS

[@SkippertheBart]

@@almostfm Eyy. I got that "between the ribs" jargon. EMT courses haven't failed me.

[@UchihaSasuke02]

Objection: if we treat entering Starfleet as a futuristic version of todays current military then the fact they've allowed him to enter into a contract to serve would mean that they've also agreed to allow him the same rights as any other person. Therefore removing his right to resign his commission would be a breach of the contract that was signed by him upon entry.

[@BassandoForte]

Maddox wouldn't be part of the US military - The US military would outsource to his company.... Remember the economy of the TNG era is explained as being closer to communism than capitalism... 👍👍

[@UchihaSasuke02]

@@BassandoForte It's closer to Socialism than Communism, Also both US and UK militaries have science specific divisions, they only tend to outsource for large scale developments. And if you include the lore added by ENT you'd see that the earth military was incorporated into Starfleet hence why Mako's aren't a thing afterwards. Lastly the use of rank and the fact that young enlisted are referred to as Cadets also links back to a military based background.

[@BassandoForte]

@@UchihaSasuke02 - Socialism is economy based though...

[@BassandoForte]

@@UchihaSasuke02 - And just like Star Trek the USSR incorporated its military into its government through it's Stazi police - Also just as in Star Trek the Stazi used to encourages you to grass on your comrades... 🤣🤣

[@shellyandjohncourtade8269]

it would also be a de facto admission of his rights and sentience because you can not make a contract with a hammer, screwdriver, or the computer of the Enterprise. This episode doesn't hold up, and is ridiculous, if you look even barely under the surface, but I get what the writers were going for and why.

[@Next0gen0]

He didn't commit murder since data didn't lose himself after being turned off. You could argue that it was assault.

[@RoonMian]

Also, the trial was about determining if Data has the rights of a sentient being. The show doesn't state what those rights exactly are so I'm just gonna assume they are similar to the UN's universal declaration of human rights we have today. Article 3 of that protects an individual's right to life and bodily integrity. So in trying to argue that Data does not have that right Riker asked the court to violate that right when he asked to be allowed to remove Data's hand. That's circular reasoning and the court shouldn't have allowed it. That should have been Picard's objection.

[@livedandletdie]

Actually, if you forcefully remove someone elses ability to live, do you murder them? Because that's not legally the case, otherwise a lot of people who've undergone organ transplants would literally be able to sue their surgeons and the whole crew around them. Want to know why, because for example, during a Heart surgery, the doctors have to make you dead so that you don't die to the surgery, then afterwards, they have to resuscitate you back to life. For the time during the surgery your life is forcefully taken from you and then forcefully given back to you. So what Riker did may fall under the same notion.

[@MeDuderify]

Wouldn't turning Data off be akin to giving a human being a dose of propofol? LOOK YOUR HONOR...THE DEFENDANT CAN BE FORCED INTO UNCONSCIOUSNESS BY A DRUG...HE'S NOT HUMAN.

[@javasparkles7330]

In an organ transplant you have usually given explicit informed consent since most transplant recipients have been on a list for a very long time waiting on a match. You go into surgery expecting to be dead for at least a little bit, so the forcefulness of the taken life is questionable at best. You go into surgery having been told "Hey, this might not work and may permanently kill you."

[@samsibbens8164]

@@RoonMian This is what I expected the objection to be. We'll treat him as property before even knowing if he is property or if he is a person?

[@QuarionGalanodel]

I think that what Picard should have stated when he objected to Riker asking the judge if he could remove Data's hand is "To do so without Commander Data's permission would violate his bodily autonomy which must be respected until it it is determined to not be his right"

[@Taladar2003]

I am not sure bodily autonomy was a term in use back when that episode was made.

[@ammaleslie509]

​@@Taladar2003 That term was in use. That term is very old.

[@FangLead]

Objection: Data’s “jumpsuit” is his uniform, and is expected to be worn. Not to mention everyone in the room is in uniform as well.

[@agranero6]

Yeah. This deviates from ST-TOS a little where in hearings and trials most people used Full Dress Uniforms.

[@christianboehlefeld5168]

Let's be real here a moment; the whole jumpsuit line was only about shoehorning in the sponsorship and should not be taken seriously as a critique.

[@drkirbkennethkirby7634]

I love how Riker's face moves in this from pride in having argued well, to realizing that if his argument is accepted, he's committing his friend to possible death

[@Julia-lk8jn]

Yep, that was really a favorite bit for me in this episode: Riker's moral dilemma. And also the way Data picked up on that and responded to it, in a way there was an answer to what Data is and is not.

[@Max-gb9nz]

1. Data's "yellow body suit" is actually his military uniform. It's been stated throughout the series several times that the colors are just as much an indication of a person's rank as the little pins on their collars are (i.e. Picard wears red because he is a commanding officer). 2. When Picard yelled "objection" when Riker asked to remove Data's arm, it was purely an emotional response on his part, which is why he was so embarrassed and floundered for a bit there (he's notorious for being terrible with dealing with his feelings) before finally saying "it doesn't matter" and sitting back down. It has to be noted that he's been thrust into the position of defending the rights of someone he considers to be a very good friend of his, someone who has saved his life so many times he's unable to remember the exact number, so it's natural for him to be horrified at the thought of Data being disassembled and his own body used against him.

[@alexmeyers7669]

That was my thought too. The reason Picard didn't come up with a reason for the objection is because he didn't really have one that wasn't based purely on emotion.

[@jasonbaird1645]

That was my interpretation too. His objection wasn't legal, it was emotional, and it came to the surface instinctively before his brain caught up and realized he was up a creek without a paddle. A good scene imo.

[@pop5678eye]

The judge, legal counsel and witnesses all wear the same uniform except for color. LE here is just trying to draw attention to his plug at the end.

[@007REAPER007]

One of my fav episodes and they sorta redid it in Star Trek Voyager with the Holographic doctor. Besides the legal side, it showed the pain that Riker went through doing what he did and felt so bad he didnt think he had the right to be Data's friend anymore until his friend Data talked to him, GREAT EPISODE!

[@reanimated6]

"Data is just a computer" in the same way "any human is just a blob of flesh"

[@joecoolmccall]

Well I agree Data is just a computer.

[@genelarge2907]

Humans are ugly bags of water

[@shanep5121]

@@genelarge2907 you've been around the wrong humans

[@genelarge2907]

@@shanep5121 I was correcting the poster of what was said in one of the episodes.

[@crazypfc777]

Objection: Data's onsie is a military uniform and therefore would be viewed favourably by the court

[@raygun38]

"Objection!" -> "on what grounds?" -> "it's devastating to my case!"

[@Mordakar]

"Overruled" "Good call!"

[@simonjohnston3100]

Liar liar?

[@sunbladedrgn]

@@simonjohnston3100 Yes, that's from Liar Liar =D Hilarious movie too.

[@4CardsMan]

If you have the law and they have the facts, pound the law. If they have the law and you have the facts, pound the facts. If they have both the law and the facts, pound the table.

[@imitt12]

The "box on wheels" comment got me wondering about how that would apply to the exocomps, especially given that they have demonstrable proof of sentience and were granted the rights of sentient beings.

[@hellomark1]

Don't know if you've watched Lower Decks at all (it starts slow, but is pretty good by the end of the first season, gets better) but they have exocomps in the show, one even enrolls in Starfleet :)

[@GaiaShield]

The issue isn't whether he's human, the issue is whether he's property. Members of Starfleet aren't all human, Worf is a Klingon, Ensign Ro is Bajoran, Troi is Betazoid/Human, etc. Is he property because he's a machine? Starfleet didn't build him, they don't own him, he joined of his own accord. I would assume that Starfleet doesn't consider their officers to be property like our military does. It's probably something Gene hated about his military service and would knock that out of Starfleet especially since it's not military, it's a science service, explorers that are using military rank.

[@sockshandle]

Aren't there instances of Starfleet engaging in military conflict?? Cause if that's the case then starfleet is not only a science service but is also a Navy

[@GaiaShield]

@@sockshandle it's gotten more militaristic since Gene died making it more confusing. Usually they're engaging in defense because another culture is attacking except for Insurrection when the Federation committed a crime by ordering Starfleet to attack those people. I'm proud of the crew for upholding the Prime directive and perplexed by fan reaction to the show Picard when he is once again defying the Federation because they're breaking their principles towards the Romulans and Artificial Intelligence Lifeforms. My guess is it became more militaristic because we keep getting into wars with the middle east and the new bosses wanted to say something about that. I think the studio company is pushing for more action and less scientific discovery and parables because it gets more money. The Chris Pine movies have lots of action but I didn't see much parable in the stories that used to be in Star Trek. Judging by comments on Star Trek pages fans are more interested in mindless violence than learning about different cultures and respecting people that are different. This often happens when the creator dies, the message dies with them without the right person in charge who understood what they were saying.

[@duffman18]

Starfleet is absolutely a military organisation. That's not debatable. It's just that they're not _SOLELY_ a military organisation. How can a non-military organisation have court martials, like starfleet does? Every time someone loses a ship it's an automatic court martial (and Picard lost 2, the Stargazer and the Enterprise D, so he had at least 2 court martials) They are a military who most of the time have other priorities, they avoid war if they can, but when war does come to the federation it's not any other Federation organisation that fights it, it's Starfleet who fight it. Like the various klingon wars, or the cardassian war that O'brien was a part of before he joined the Enterprise, or the Dominion War which also had the cardassians involved. They're all fought by starfleet. Starfleet is an all encompassing military organisation. There's no army and navy and marines and air force etc, Starfleet is ALL of those things combined into one, they are essentially a navy in space (hence why they use navy ranks, and they travel around on ships, and their ships have multiple "decks" instead of "levels" or "floors" or something). And then they can fight ground based battles too, and they can fight in atmospheres as a sort of air force that can leave the atmosphere if they want to unlike current air force planes But yeah, the scientific part is also there. They're all these different military branches combined into one, but they ALSO have NASA in them. NASA technically began as a military organisation too, so that makes sense

[@GaiaShield]

@@duffman18 it's not a courts martial. You're charged with a crime in a courts martial. It's an investigation hearing like drumhead to determine if courts martials are merited. It's kind of like senate hearings, they aren't being charged with anything, it's an investigation into what happened to determine if criminal acts occurred.

[@GaiaShield]

@@duffman18 Picard's archeology professor pretty much said that Starfleet was originally an exploration organization when he said that it has turned more into Roman centurions surveying their territory rather than scientific study.

[@HappyHippieGaymer]

You should replace “human” with “sentient being” as in this show even Alien life forms have rights under the federation.

[@krieghart5515]

I'd extend the meaning of "human" to go beyond identifying a single biological species. My dog acts human all the time.

[@Twigpi]

There is a difference in connotation between saying that someone is a human and saying that someone is human. But you still make a good point.

[@johnladuke6475]

I think you guys mean the legal concept of personhood, being a person. A dog is no more a human than a human is a bird or a fish, but you can make a case that the dog has personhood. That's a concept that is not legally tied to being human - at times there are humans who were not persons before the law, while corporations were invented for the sole purpose of allowing a non-human company to be a person. Have to say I disagree about personhood for dogs though, until Rover can actually argue his own case for wanting to vote. Now that I think about it I DO agree that he owns the tennis ball, that's totally his property.

[@BoleDaPole]

Your dog doesn't act human, you just associate his dog actions as human like.

[@Wren_the_Bird_King]

HappyHippieGaymer, you want to know something? Everybody’s human.

[@faint525]

Objection: You cannot just "turn off" a witness. What happened to Data was the equivalent of a lawyer punching the witness in the temple, and knocking the witness out. This is battery, and should be met with a bailiff tackle. Also This doesnt turn into murder unless Data doesn't turn back on. Just like when knocking people out, with computers, if you turn it off, there is always a risk of it not turning back on. As far as Data's hand is concerned. There are two schools of thought here that ask if Data's limbs are a part of his body or are prosthesis. Take for example me. I have a subdermal, NFC enabled implant in both of my hands, each one can store roughly 886 bytes of data, enough to hold something like a confession or some form of evidence. Lets say that the antenna on that implant broke, preventing transmission to something like a phone. While you can request a medical examination by the judge for extraction and then submit that as evidence, the lawyer cannot remove the implant itself, in the middle of a court room. You cannot force someone to undergo a medical procedure. If we assume that Data's limbs are prosthesis instead of parts of his body, then all removing the hand does is humiliates the witness. Lots of people have prosthetic body parts. The fact that someone can remove an arm or leg does not make them any less human, and the judge should not have allowed it in the first place.

[@awilliams1701]

punching would cause injury. This would be the equivalent of giving him anesthesia, which is still probably not ok to do in court.

[@chrisflanagan7564]

@@awilliams1701 bring in a vulcan crew member, have them perform the neck pinch and "turn off" another member of the crew. ... Data isn't dead when he is off, only unconscious.

[@christianlorre]

It's not punching him out because h's not alive in the first place. That's the whole point.

[@jamesmeritt6800]

faint525: turning off people is easy. Turning them back on is hard.

[@xxhellspawnedxx]

@@christianlorre What is punching someone out? Actively turning them off. The circuitry may be different between biological and technological machines, but it produces the same results: A cessation of sensory input, and the ability to reflect on and respond to stimuli.

[@lazaruscain3424]

I think it's also important to remember that while Starfleet is a part of The Federation, it's also their military branch. As I understand it, military court has different rules, so it'd be interesting to see how close they got with that.

[@JohnnyShagbot]

OBJECTION! Not only is the suit Data is wearing a two-piece, it is standard Starfleet Regulation uniform for commissioned officers!

[@ThatWeirdo04]

Objection! Measure of a Man is a season 1 episode. In season 1, the costumes were one-piece jumpsuits. They didn't start wearing the two-piece uniforms until season 3.

[@photonicpizza1466]

@@ThatWeirdo04 Objection, even if it is technically a onesie, it is still his military uniform, and therefore it is court-appropriate attire

[@KumoCC]

@@ThatWeirdo04 season 2 episode

[@ThatWeirdo04]

@@KumoCC I stand corrected. However, since they didn't start wearing the two-pieces until season 3, my point still stands.

[@ThatWeirdo04]

@@photonicpizza1466 I never said it wasn't

[@DobieTanpaw]

Objection. This is a military hearing being conducted under the Judge Advocate General's purvue. Rules and procedures in a military court differ from a civilian court, and you are applying civilian court rules to everything.

[@John_Stephens43]

That would, as I understand, mean showing up in uniform.

[@xandercorp6175]

Well darn, if I had seen your comment I would have been spared the embarrassment of making a near duplicate. Well done!

[@wearejune]

Not to mention that they are following the law of the United Federation of Planets. With so many cultures being represented in the Federation, it's safe to assume that trials would follow different rules than in modern day United States.

[@DobieTanpaw]

@Stripey Arse Except this personhood question is directly related to his military service, that is, can Lt. Cdr. Data resign his commission and leave Starfleet to avoid undergoing Cdr. Maddox' procedure, OR, is Data the Property of Starfleet and required to submit to anything. The issue of his wider rights as a person is secondary.

[@DobieTanpaw]

@@wearejune True, however, the context of this particular video series is applying U.S. jurisprudence and procedures to fictional courtroom scenes.

[@sandwichboy1268]

Objection: due to the absence of a sonographer in the episode, we can assume that modern requirements in place for sonographic reasons are no longer applicable. Presumably, the entire trial is recorded, likely in a format viewable in the holodeck, where the judge's nodding is clearly visible.

[@YKB1966]

Actually, the proper term is stenographer. This is a courtroom, not a clinic or a hospital.

[@Plant_Parenthood]

@@YKB1966 Interestingly, a sonographer is the person who operates the ultrasound machine when you go and get medical scans done.

[@TheyHateMeCuzTheyAteMe]

Not in dolphin Court

[@billygowhoop]

There was an episode where Riker went on trial for killing someone and they had basically the same thing you're describing. They had "video" of the interactions leading up to the murder.

[@danielrhouck]

In TOS I think this would usually be handled by transcripts still, although ones automatically gathered by the computer. By now, yes, and if they need a transcript format it can probably record nods.

[@ИннаБиктимирова-т4ь]

But the fact that Data doesn’t want to be experimented on proves that he is rather human than a machine, doesn’t it? Machines don’t object to experimentations because they don’t care about themselves.

[@andyarken7906]

When they were talking about whether a computer would be allowed to refuse being refitted, I would have asked, "well, have they ever?"

[@KafeinBE]

It doesn't prove anything. Data could have been programmed to express such as wish against the end of its existence. In fact, we humans are "programmed" to avoid self-destruction too, but for us it is a biological imperative.

[@benknightbus1729]

@@andyarken7906 I suppose it would depend on how you’d define refused, as I’d say that computers do regularly refuse commands. They’ll refuse due to software or hardware error, conditional parameters not being met (safety lockouts, levels of access,) etc I’d then argue that a person reacts in the same way - they’ll refuse an order because they won’t believe their superior has the authority to do so. You could compare that to a programming error - the officer refused because he was not properly “programmed” to not question orders. You could also view it as a safety mechanism or access restriction - I don’t believe you have the moral authority to carry out that order (access denied.) A dozen different ways to look at it.

[@isomeme]

​@@benknightbus1729, exactly. It's analogous to my strenuously objecting to a mugger cutting me with a knife, but readily agreeing to a surgeon doing so.

[@allenporter6586]

Ummm HAL 9000?

[@YTEdy]

Picard's objection to the removing of Data's hand was an emotional objection, that's why he withdrew it. It was a rare emotionally triggered response, I wouldn't quite call it an outburst, but along those lines.

[@jtuell]

I feel like a real objection could have been made here: that such a demand or requirement presupposes the finding that Data is not a human and does not have the right to choose whether certain parts of his body may or may not be removed for examination by the court. Indeed, Picard *should have* objected based on these grounds, and further should have filed an injunction against treating Data as property until the court had decided that he was, in fact, property.

[@TheVergile]

was it really emotional though? Just because he is physically able to remove his hand doesnt mean it is proper to ask in court to demonstrate that. example: “Are you fertile?” “Yes” “Then please demonstrate by procreating in court” In general it would seem inproper to ask of him anything you wouldnt ask from any other defendant.

[@darkdoescosplays]

@@jtuell this is exactly what I was thinking.

[@varmituofm]

@@jtuell Well said. I'd also argue that in trial there is reason to object even when you know you have to grounds to object. The objection throws the opposition off their rhythm. In jury cases, the objection itself allows for the lawyer to communicate with the jury out of turn (even if this is frowned upon)

[@robertt9342]

varmituofm . Ya, but you got to come up with some BS reason...

[@itxi]

Objection: Riker didn't need to ask Data questions because as far as the prosecution is concerned he is evidence, not a witness.

[@jdotoz]

Ooh, good point. Is the testimony of a non-"human" admissible?

[@jdotoz]

@ Actually, the judge had already ruled that Data was not. And you'll see that I put the word human in quote marks to indicate that I didn't mean exactly human but possessing the qualities of a human relevant to this case.

[@pali1d]

@ Philosophically, the question is better phrased as "Is Data sapient?" than "Is Data sentient?", as demonstrating that he is sentient is trivial - but that's also true of most complex animal life, while the only sapient species we know of is humans IRL. Even then, "sapient" is still a fairly vague word. If there's a legal term that I'd say applies best, the question would be "is Data legally competent?" If he is, then he should have the right to make his own decisions just as any other legally competent being could, thus he'd have the right to resign or refuse to undergo procedures against his will. If he isn't, THEN the questions regarding what procedures could be ethically conducted upon him by an agency with legal guardianship over him can start being debated... but even now we recognize differences between "we can make decisions for you", "we can experiment on you" and "we can do whatever we want to you" for humans and other animals. There are huge legal and ethical questions to be resolved that go far beyond if Data is ruled to have equal rights to a human-equivalent being before any experiments should be allowed to start - is Data chimp-equivalent? Dog-equivalent? Mouse-equivalent? Cockroach-equivalent? Bacteria-equivalent? Rock-equivalent? That shit matters, especially when it comes to ethical scientific experimentation. It's actually a nice detail in the Voyager episode "Author, Author" where the judge doesn't rule that the Doctor should or should not have human-equivalent rights, but does rule that he has the specific right to be included under the definition of artist and thus holds the same rights as any other artist regarding controlling their work. Obviously this sets a precedent that future arguments/rulings could draw inspiration from, but it's a far more concrete and specific ruling than Louvois giving Data the "right to choose" - choose what, exactly? Does he now have all rights granted under Federation law to citizens? Or just those granted to Starfleet officers? Or just that he can choose to resign if he wants, but other Starfleet rules may still not apply to him and he'll have to go through this again later? Does he have the right to make choices that other people don't have the right to make, such as choosing to kill someone whenever he wants? Precise wording matters, damn it.

[@jy3n2]

"I wish to demonstrate properties of this device. Exhibit A will describe for the court its physical and mental capabilities. Exhibit A will describe for the court its origin and manufacture."

[@JRexRegis]

Also, do you apologize to a toaster before unplugging it?

[@SullySadface]

Objection: Your dispute with Commander Riker's tactics stems from jealousy of the beard.

[@chelsea6329]

In Data's defense, everyone was in uniform. It would have been super weird...

[@marjanp]

It was excuse for advertising suits.

[@watchm4ker]

It should have been Dress Uniform, though.

[@elowin1691]

"Did you know: Sentient beings do not wear onesies to court" shows picture of a court wherein literally every person is wearing that ok

[@1a2b3c4d_]

Elowin If I went to a court I would wear my soft owl onesie. I am a piece of lead.

[@borgranta61103]

Objection: bending the steel was not relevant to determine personhood since Vulcans also have enhanced strength and also are a person. Also bending steel was prejudicial.

[@TKDWILSON]

Picard literally says almost exactly that......

[@texasbeast239]

Data's super-strength is germane to his humanity (status as a specimen of the *homo sapiens sapiens* species of biological lifeform), but not to his philosophical or legal personhood.

[@ZantherStone]

Uh, he literally addresses that in the video dude. Did you sleep through class?

[@mechachunks1238]

I think the technical term used was "Mega-Strength"

[@keiyakins]

Forget vulcans - the Q are recognized as having personhood. Physical capabilities are clearly irrelevant.

[@jdb2002]

Fun Fact: The Scriptwriter for the episode was a former lawyer herself.

[@rauljulio5396]

I guess the tech babble about phase inductors and transducer coils are made up by consulting physicists as well.

[@EleneDOM]

Josh B: I was just going to mention that-- Melinda Snodgrass' first career was law. Another fun fact: she also used to sing opera (which doesn't show up in STTNG, but does obliquely, I suppose, in her Star Trek novel "The Tears of the Singers.") I know her and have great respect for her; she is one of our treasured New Mexico SF writers, though she spends a lot of time in California these days. This episode got her the job she had with STTNG as story editor during its second season. (My quibble with this story was Picard's statement that parents create or make their children, so it was the same as a human creating Data. That doesn't seem quite biologically accurate. It's more like babies make themselves.)

[@mixiekins]

@@rauljulio5396 Oh, in fact, there's a hotline writers can call in to get consultation on technical terms for a variety of things. I believe it's called the Science and Entertaininnment Exchange, and looks like the number is (844) NEED-SCI which does ring a bell, I learned about it while studying Theater Design and Production. IIRC they had at least a few specialists on staff for TNG, much like the writers of Futurama, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had made use of the technobabble hotline as well.

[@TheRSFan5000]

@@rauljulio5396 Surprisingly, a lot of Star Trek science does have some basis in fact. It IS science fiction so some liberties are taken for the sake of storytelling, but the core of fact is there.

[@richardbenjamin8535]

i wonder if she is a "former" lawyer because she kept filing fictitious and frivolous law suits?

[@johannesblank1552]

Procedural law could have changed quite a bit in a couple hundred years, so it might still be realistic :). Also, Maddox should have closed with "If Data computes bit by bit, you can't acquit"

[@AlaiMacErc]

Changed from what, even? French law? Chinese? Andorian? Even a vague resemblance to modern US show is a complete "this is a US TV series" cope.

[@watchm4ker]

The OJ Simpson trial wouldn't be for 6 years at the time of airing.

[@KanjoNights]

Objection! When Picard objects to Riker's test of the parsteel, he was stating that there are many known races (some which currently serve within Starfleet) that possess mega strength. Strength that far supercedes human ability. The mega strength of one of these races does not disqualify them from being sentient, then why should data's strength? He was not asserting whether or not Data is *human*, but rather that Data is a sentient being.

[@johnladuke6475]

Yeah, but the criticism is that Picard should have to present that during arguments, not during an objection. He's saying that Riker can introduce the concept as evidence and Picard can't stop him, but it's Picard's job to argue later that the evidence was irrelevant. Basically move the points made in the objection to Picard's opening argument.

[@serban031]

But it is important that he object because it is not relevant to the question of sentient or property. If other species have super strength, and are considered sentient and given rights, and through medical procedure and splicing a human could be given the same or a portion of the same ability, that species would not be subjugated as property so that humans can be given gene splicing (or whatever the procedure would be).

[@RobbieZ84]

@@johnladuke6475 In many courts you can object for something not being relevant so as to not waste the courts time. I don't see how his physical strength is relevant to the question of if he is sentient. Otherwise if you are on trial for murder and are looking to delay going to federal prison you could just endlessly call completely pointless evidence.

[@dennismood7476]

@@RobbieZ84 It wasn't a question of Data's strength being related to his being sentient. Picard was objecting to Riker using strength as evidence of Data being a machine, therefore not a sentient being. Picard then supported his objection by siting that other species have this type of strength. Riker's evidence didn't apply.

[@RobbieZ84]

@@dennismood7476 Right... which is what I said above @John La Duke said that Riker can introduce the evidence, I disagreed and said as the evidence is not relevant to the issue, however you frame it, in many courts you can object as it is not relevant. The nuance of the argument of what it is relevant to is semantics (often clearly important in law, but for my point I do not think it changes whether it is objectionable or not... in many courts you can object and the judge would sustain, otherwise you could endlessly waste the courts time on unrelated evidence).

[@bazbloodwolf]

Just a point of order: Maddox isn't from Starfleet Medical. He's a Starfleet science officer and adjunct of the Daystrom Institute. :) yup... I'm a nerd.

[@EdgardoCervantesP]

You are technically correct. The best kind of correct!

[@Skruddgemire]

Technically correct, but for an android, this was the equivalent of invasive, unneeded, and potentially dangerous brain surgery.

[@hendel213126]

Then should he be wearing the blue "medical" uniform of Starfleet Medical? He should be wearing the yellow uniform.

[@sabin97]

some of their ship designs get built in utopia planitia.

[@Lithl]

​@@hendel213126 The episode takes place in 2365, at which point the blue uniform worn by Maddox is for all science officers, medical or otherwise. Data's yellow-orange uniform is for all operations officers, and the red uniforms worn by Picard, Riker, and Louvois are for command positions. In fact, there is no point in the Starfleet timeline where blue is for medical _without_ blue also being for other science officers (though there are times when medical has a different uniform, at no point are they different _and_ blue)

[@gregbasore2108]

Objection: You didn't include the bit where Picard had Data comment on personal possessions, demonstrating that he has sentimental attachments. The items include a memento from Lt. Yarr, which he kept because of fond memories of the two of them being intimate, which is probably the best argument for Data displaying human characteristics. Also; Filing a motion for you to review an episode, any episode of Nightcourt because it's awesome!

[@amylieu6084]

Why did god make snakes before lawyers?

[@rhettorical]

Before he watches his Night Court tape, he'll need to get his VCR fixed. I know of a great repair shop in Milwaukee.

[@ExploringFate]

Brent Spiner (Data) played Bob Wheeler on Night Court. Those episodes would be good for review.

[@kendrickoyola4290]

Or read his awards

[@Milnoc]

@@ExploringFate What was the charge again? The illegal detonation of poultry? 😁

[@edmundriddle3847]

The yellow onesie is his uniform: are they not appropriate to wear in a military court?

[@starbase218]

One thing I was wondering about is how Data could be considered the “property of Starfleet” when he _chose_ to join Starfleet. How can you be the property of something when you joined that thing out of your own accord?

[@Wright805]

Very true. One of my biggest gripes with this episode is that at one point Maddox asks if Starfeet would allow a ship's computer to refuse a refit and the JAG officer says this is a valid point. It isn't. Starfleet builds the ships and computers, they didn't build Data.

[@Shade01982]

@@Wright805 That is very close to DJ's argument saying that these question would already have been settled the moment he applied to join. They would have already argued most of this and ruled on it. And considering he was allowed to join and has received a rank and uniform, they clearly consider him sentient with personal rights.

[@thetimebinder]

US Army recruiter: I got yo ass now boy.

[@lauracoutinho5478]

Exactly. If he had chosen to go into medicine, would that make him the property of whatever hospital or clinic he worked for?

[@Wright805]

@@Shade01982 Precisely.

[@KBJade39]

Objection! Data's suit was appropriate because as this was a military court showing up in his military uniform would be appropriate.

[@no1ofconsequence936]

Good point, but he might have wanted to appear in a dress uniform even though, as it turns out, no one else did either.

[@mikefreelove]

Agreed. But as previously stated, he should wear a dress uniform (assuming Data had one at this time since he basically always wears the same thing since he does not actually need to get dressed and undressed each day). Even if the court takes place with everyone else wearing working uniforms, it is customary for the accused to wear a dress uniform. I’ve been to a few captain’s masts while in the navy and all but the accused wore working uniforms. The accused generally (although not always) wore a dress uniform.

[@joer8854]

@@no1ofconsequence936 I found that as a rather big oversight at the time. I thought it was curious that they would have a trail in field uniforms when they could easily replicate dress uniforms which actually look quite appropriate for the circumstances if you have ever seen them. kzbin.info/www/bejne/e4eqYauEoJhmrbM

[@LuisAngelRosario]

@@no1ofconsequence936 You beat me to the punch. In the ARMY we would all be in dress uniform and since I am not a JAG officer it is the only argument I had with the video. U.S. Medic 91-A

[@KBJade39]

@@no1ofconsequence936 I would have suggested a dress uniform but I dont know if they have dress uniforms. Or if at that time they did.

[@Kishandreth]

[@TheWabbitSeason]

He should be wearing the military dress uniform, not the duty uniform.

[@Kishandreth]

@@TheWabbitSeason completely correct. Even then a basic uniform could be better then a suit depending on the case

[@rmdodsonbills]

@@TheWabbitSeason Yeah, but he's wearing the exact same uniform style as the rest of the participants in the courtroom, including the judge. It seems unreasonable to hold the defendant to a higher standard than everyone else. Since all participants are wearing the duty uniform, I think it's reasonable to assume that there is a Starfleet regulation on the proper uniform for legal proceedings. The dress uniform does seem to be reserved for black-tie or white-tie occasions like meeting an ambassador.

[@syntaxusdogmata3333]

You beat me to it. In military trials and hearings, uniforms are expected. Though they repeatedly say Starfleet isn't a "military" organization, I imagine it would still hold true.

[@mikesnapper9001]

@@TheWabbitSeason you mean the doody uniform

[@Chuck-PK]

I've always felt that Riker was purposefully making flawed sophist arguments to subtlety help Data and Picard's case and an FU to Maddox. Riker as the prosecution was a complete conflict of interest after all, he even said so himself.

[@PyroGam3s]

Now that I see parts of this episode again, why isn't the starfleet researcher arguing his own case? He's the one who has a grievance which led to this whole situation in the first place and he's a witness to his own "lawsuit" so to speak, like how?

[@scottmatheson3346]

technically this case is not about his rights even though he whines about his supposed right not to have his work interrupted. technically this is data v starfleet. and scientist guy is not in the chain of command here and thus not qualified.

[@ghostlyswat12]

@@PyroGam3she doesn’t have the rank to argue his own case This is a military tribunal so someone of sufficient military rank needed to argue the case

[@thomasconnors4338]

Fun fact, in Season 6 it was discovered that aliens experimenting on the Enterprise crew without their knowledge had removed and reattached Riker's hand, therefore by his own standard, Riker is not a person- clearly he is a vehicle owned by his beard (which I contend is in fact a more complete character than him, probably with full rights under the Acts Of Cumberland)

[@TheWowza48]

I mean, he was only making the argument because of the fact that if he didn't "give his all" in arguing AGAINST Data's rights, then the side he was forced to argue for would get an AUTOMATIC VICTORY, stripping Data of his rights.

[@vwlssnvwls3262]

"Pinocchio is broken." "You're broken!" Someone just revealed his Data fandom. :p Love the videos. Keep up the great work.

[@Kevin-sd9ec]

?

[@DaddyBeanDaddyBean]

"Commander Riker, I met a man named Spock once. Could I ... demonstrate... something he taught me?"

[@margotrosendorn6371]

Let's be honest, it's hard NOT to love this character. Lt. Commander Data is wildly popular, and I think his childlike appeal makes a lot of us want to protect him. Personally, Data is my favorite in the whole series!

[@hzuiel]

I think I would have replied that the purpose of this hearing is to determine Data's rights, which depending on it's ruling would make what you just did potentially assault.

[@TheSleepN]

Hahaha Riker "he's broken" Lawyer " you're broken" If i ever need an attorney, you have my business sir....

[@KlintKaras]

I desperately want a transcript that includes "no you!" To be made public now...

[@framehowitzer]

I think 'The Drumhead' is also a great legal-centric episode of The Next Generation, if you want to do a video like this again. Also great, 'Rules of Engagement' from TNG and 'The Menagerie' from the Original Series. Great video though, very interesting!

[@LawTaranis]

OBJECTION! The yellow one-piece suit, while certainly less flattering than your very sharp suit, is the all-situation uniform of Star Fleet. Just as members of the military are required to use dress uniforms for court proceedings, Commander Data would be required to be dressed in the standard uniform of his Star Fleet division. ;)

[@pleasestaysafe2787]

Objection! It's a sponsored Channel. It's his lead in. He doesn't care about Starfleet regulations. He cares about the suits. The very nice suits by the way.

[@ikarikid]

You also should consider that the Enterprise isn’t going anywhere and Data will have duties to perform on the ship.

[@wessltov]

@@pleasestaysafe2787 I bet you're the type to say "it's just a movie". You're not arguing to the case at hand, since LegalEagle initially argued against the yellow suit during the trial

[@HariSeldon913]

I'm going to disagree with both sides and say Data should have worn his dress uniform.

[@ikarikid]

Hari Seldon But nobody else was wearing one.

[@stotheh]

Data had to apply to Starfleet and attend the academy. The ship's computer didn't. It was built by Starfleet. Data wasn't built by Starfleet. The implication Maddox and the judge makes would be that any member of Starfleet is the property of Starfleet, which is clearly not the case.

[@superdave6889]

This is a MILITARY court, and thus data is required by starfleet regulations to wear his official uniform, although i will admit, he should have been in his "dress blues"

[@sirslickrock]

Incorrect, there are multiple levels of uniforms in the armed forces. Using the US Marines as an example. There are Blue Dress (often referred to as ‘Dress Blues) that have 4 levels of classification: A,B,C & D. A being the most formal (with Jacket and Medals) to D being the least formal (short sleeved without the Jacket and without medals). This would be inappropriate to wear to your own court proceedings (unless this is your day to day uniform & under strict circumstances) THEN there is the Service uniforms of A,B & C. A (with Jacket and wide cover/cap) , B (Long sleeve shirt and thin cap) C (short sleeve shirt. These are the equivalent of what they all are wearing. Admittedly the US Navy’s uniforms might be a closer match given the situation but I didn’t serve in the Navy.. and they have a ton of classes of uniforms...like 5

[@toryfox4580]

The one with the skirt? Or the one for diplomatic events? They have a pretty big variety in their uniforms...just saying

[@sawyernorthrop4078]

@@sirslickrock He seems to be wearing the same uniform as everyone else in the courtroom, would this be considered Uniform of the day? I'm a civilian so I might not understand the concept right

[@sirslickrock]

Sawyer Northrop yes it would be the uniform of the day and since it not a utility uniform (something you’re expected to get dirty) it’s fine.

[@michaelgoldstein8516]

I think a lot of people have probably said this, but the court martial is a military proceeding. It would be extremely weird for him to not wear his uniform. However, generally in these situations he should be in his dress uniform, not his working uniform. So you’re kind of right.

[@SABRMatt2010]

Second objection! Everyone else in the room was wearing the Starfleet uniform. It is the standard of professionalism defined by the setting.

[@666Vampirefromhell]

😂 Oh my god, that clip of Reiker singing the theme song on set made my day.

[@johngerity]

at first I thought that was the Night Court theme.

[@roberthenryscott8176]

Lol

[@TheMadHatter248]

I'm pretty sure that was Johnathan Frakes.

[@changinglanes7091]

Look up the TNG blooper reel on KZbin. Absolutely hilarious!

[@awilliams1701]

@@changinglanes7091 There are multiple ones. Season 1 is the worst because a lot of it seemed intentional or were just nonsense edits but some were real bloopers also it was taken from an old VHS tape. The other seasons were taken from film and actually were all real bloopers or in this case the cast singing the TNG opening credits. My personal favorite is when worf says he does not play with boys (instead of toys).

[@fourcatsandagarden]

20:22 - small caveat to the 'you're not allowed to ask questions of another person' argument: while Picard clearly believes Data is a person, Data's personhood is what is being decided in this trial, and so if they admit that Picard is asking 'another person' questions, they are admitting that Data is a person.

[@scrivener68]

I'm thinking then that the other side of that coin would be that Picard would have to enter Data into evidence the same way Riker did the steel bar; in which case they are already deciding Data is *not* a person. Catch-22.

[@fourcatsandagarden]

@@scrivener68 very true. It's win-win and lose-lose for both sides at the same time.

[@josephrittenhouse5839]

clever! We "could" say that it was allowed for that very point, and everyone knew the point he was making when he did it. or it could just be bad writing.

[@Ribbo]

I think this all depends on the current default position. If Data is already considered a person or not before the start of the trial.