Reasons not to buy the lyric graffiti e-bike and to hold off

[@Jhubble515]

I also noticed that all the ebikes they sent out to reviewers had a large motor and then the production one had the 1000 watt

[@Jhubble515]

I almost bought one. I watched one of their videos where they said they build all the bikes in house so I emailed and asked if I could get the white one with the solid black tires and they said no, they are packaged like you see. I said but your video said you do the entire assembly in house and never heardback.

[@victorhe435]

You got yourself a subscribe dude. Great high level informed opinions

[@blackswann9555]

Sounds like Fraudulent marketing!!! Do not deal with Lyric. Scammers!!! ❌😵

[@lyriccycles]

Hi there and thanks for taking a look at our products. There's a number of things where you don't have your information correct and should be mindful of presenting information this way to your viewers. You've also not either ridden or seen our products in person and are presenting inaccurate opinion, not fact so we thought we would help clarify. 1. Motor size: You've made a claim to the idea that the motor cannot be a 2500 watt motor just because of the size that the motor takes up in a 20" wheel. This would never be an accurate way to measure a motor. A 2500 watt nominal motor is a motor that is able to sustain a continuous power draw of 2500 watts SAFELY. This doesn't mean that the motor pulls 2500 watts all the time, it just means that it can safely. A direct drive motor like the Graffiti has is made up of a motor wheel, stator magnets, phase wires, hall sensors, and an out casing the dissipates heat and protects the motor. The outer diameter of a motor casing is not a good determinant of whether a motor is a 2500 watt motor as this doesn't tell you much about the size of the phase wires or magnets. If you are to compare a QS 205 vs a MXUS vs a Crystalyte they might all be different sizes but the same power. So please don't use this as a matter of fact. 2. Battery Watt Hours: This is just simple math. Our claim that the Graffiti's batteries are 910 watt hours each or 1820 watt hours for the dual battery bike are true. a 52 volt battery at 17.5ah is 52 x 17.5 = 910 and 910 x 2 = 1820. To state that they are 15ah is not the correct way to claim the size of a battery and no manufacturer is using this math. This might be what you are considering "useable range" when you take the top and bottom 10% off, but this isn't how anyone else speaks of their batteries so it would be incorrect for us to represent our batteries this way too. 3. Battery BMS and Phase Current:You make a claim that the Graffiti would have a 30 amp BMS at best which is just factually untrue and that the Graffiti would not be able to produce the advertised power especially with only the single battery model. There are a number of inaccuracies in this statement and it doesn't show that you are communicating an understanding of a few key concepts in ebike electric systems to make this kind of claim. You've failed to take into account battery current vs phase current, rated power of an electrical motor vs ongoing power needed, nominal power vs peak power, and continuous power vs peak power. Battery current vs phase current is different. The amount of current measured at the phase wires is different from battery current, under initial acceleration the phase current and battery current will be quite different but at closer to top speed they will be much closer. There is a good article from ASI, our controller manufacturer, on it here (support.accelerated-systems.com/KB/?p=2063). But needless to say it isn't simple math and it is dangerous to both make assumptions of performance and speak about them in a similar fashion. This also assumes that the Graffiti needs to create an ongoing draw of 2500 watts to create the performance that can be seen in review videos. At top speed, the Graffiti draws about 600-700 watts from the motor continuously, at 30mph it is drawing 400-500 watts but it is still a 2500 watt motor. This is advertised motor power vs power needed to continuously perform. The battery BMS has a peak rating of 120 amps and the controller has a peak of 90 amps, these peak powers happen for seconds and the display on the graffiti does register this power level even on the single battery system. This is a safe burst draw and it is standard for this to be the advertised peak of an electrical system. This is with either the single or the dual battery. So in this case don't have your facts straight about our electrical system. We do have output graphs from the eggrider app we can share to show this draw. 4. Top Speed vs Wattage vs Volts: In your review you have claimed to be riding 5000 watt bike with a 150amp BMS and you show that the bike is easily keeping up with traffic and reaches high top speeds and at those speeds it is drawing 2500 watts. We can definitely understand how this is possible but this is a very different system from the Graffiti. As you know, all components of an electrical drive system should be carfully paired to prevent over stressing one component vs another. But there is a lot of confused information in you claim of speed as the speed is not directly related to the watts drawn from the motor, rather it is a matter of both the current and voltage of the bike you're riding. System voltage is more of a direct determinant of top speed than wattage. If all other factors on the Graffiti were the same (motor, controller, phase wires, etc) but the battery was 72 volts it would travel at much faster speeds closer to 60mph, at 60v it would be close to 50mph and at 52v it is close to 40mph (38 as our claim and shown in reviews at that speed). We intended to build the Graffiti for this speed, and yes, we could build it faster. But the Graffiti has been designed to be at the top speed that any "bicycle" should go, in our opinion, with bicycle parts. Above these speeds the bike should be using motorcycle brakes, motorcycle rims, motorcycle tires, etc. We can design a faster bike with more suspension as we have done so with the Lyric Voodoo which is a 72V 250 amp system but this is also a 160lb moped not a bicycle. This is a tough choice, but we know some consumers don't want to move to the larger brakes, heavier frame, etc. Point is, you should be noting the difference between volts, watts, and top speed, the bike you're riding is clearly a 60 or 72V system and at 150 amps that bike you're riding and comparing to the Graffiti is more than double the power and is more comparable to our Lyric Voodoo. 5. Hill Climbing ability: This is where the Graffiti actually performs very well. If you look at our ride along video or the one posted by Juiced joyrides where he does a long hill climb test, our bike powers up 12-15% inclines with ease. Because it is a direct drive motor it doesn't have the same off-the-line torque as a geared hub, but once it has passed 5mph it sustains speed and the ASI controller (sine wave controller) does a great job at powering up hills. So rest assured things are good there. I hope this helps we'd be happy to chat further but wanted you ad your viewers to know we do take the design of our electrical system seriously and we have considered many things in the creation of it.

[@thetechgenie7374]

Yes do realize the higher voltage the higher rpm and higher top speed. It not the speed I was solely worried about but the main issue is the battery choice and the ability for that battery to be able to provide current needed to sustain the nominal rating? It not just the controller used, or phase current. The battery also need to be up to task as well and unfortunately the limiting factor. Phase current is going to be pretty much pulse and peak pretty much. Yes you can buck the voltage The current leaves the battery and goes through one of the mosfets through one one phases and then through the other phase and back to the negative terminal of the battery. Current in a circuit cant be higher at one point than another point, unless it splits. Pretty much The dc batttery current ultimately gets split three ways via the mosfets to the phases. The current through the battery has to equal the currents in the three phases added together. Yes you can get more current peak pretty much bucking the voltage is as ASI controller and even sabvoton controller are capable of doing but is not truly nominal. You still have loss. Reason why you design a battery that still capable of at least the nominal rating of the motor. The Samsung 35e in 5p configuration are definitely not up to the task not at less in 5p, you would have do a 6p and then at least it able to do 2832w continuous 48 amps. Definitely not going to fit in that shark case. Yes 21700 cost is higher but better capacity and much more current not have to use as many cells in parallel. I just say go 60v as like the higher speed but definitely would have been possible to get at least the continuous current, same speed/rpm with 21700 cells and jumbo shark case.

[@thetechgenie7374]

The controller doesn't have any amps on it's own. It converts the usable current your battery can deliver. And it will do so up to something around what it is rated for. As for your motor phase current property's, it also has nothing to do with the battery storage (amp hours or watt hours however you want to calculate it.) It also has nothing to do with the current ("amps") your controller can deliver. Your phases will, in a properly working motor, spin the motor in relation to the current provide by your controller up to a point of saturation, and - or overheating? There is no direct correlation between battery watt hours (amp hours), or controller ratings with phase amps. Any number of combinations of battery size or chemistry, controller watts, and motor types and sizes make that something you have to calculate for an estimation with what you have.

[@davidwarner6755]

In paragragh 4 you say 'We intended to build the Graffiti...' Have any production bikes actually gone out yet?

[@TXDTOWNALLTHETIME]

@@thetechgenie7374 how did you come up with any of your arguments without seeing or riding the bike?? I'm just curious how that works?

[@thetechgenie7374]

@@TXDTOWNALLTHETIME I build bikes I know the components they are using pretty well. I don’t need to ride it to know it not as specs I build bikes and am a engineer so I know it not going to be as claim specs wise. Yes the bike might be fine as far as ridding it but still not going to do near their 2500w nominal or 4700w peak as batteries is not rated for that and controller won’t even put out more then 2000w on 52v battery no matter how you tune it. I know that controller especially very well as used it on many projects myself. Plus no one but reviewers ridden it and only had it for a day. There no production model available anywhere as bike never shipped to anyone. You want to pay over 3k and take a risk go ahead. I can’t personally recommend it as not going to meet specs period and not even close to specifications it likely a 1500w bike not a 2500w bike and direct drive hub it not going to be very good at steep hill climbing. Also a reviewer by the name “juiced joyrides” at the 6:08 time mark in his video review of the bike, he did a great review and it could not go up or even start to at a 19% incline he had to pedal it. I taken a 2000w direct drive hub bike up same incline slow 8mph but didn’t have to assist it. So the reviews show the performance to be lacking and I not the only one that notice? Look at comments below his video? Plus another reviewer only barely 190 pounds could barely get it to 37 and took more time then you expect from a motor that size and also had a hard time get up steeper hills. Then on another reviewer battery died at about only 15mph range going back from work and he had to pedal it back the rest of the way so not going to meet range even with pedal assist with dual batteries. They over exaggerating pretty much most the specs pretty much. Where I have the problem is they are claiming that nominal continuous power, if they put peak won’t even care as pretty much everyone exaggerates those numbers? Yes a 1500w direct drive is going to be faster then most these bike they review so will still seem fast but when you go to a real 2500w plus bike it sure be able to preform better then at least a gear hub motor and some direct drive motors have torque specs pretty close to a good mid drive even. I not the only one that notice performance is lacking on those reviews, just look at comments. I definitely know why as components they are using which they confirmed that what they are using and on their website on the technical information that it not a 2500w nominal bike period.

[@6431harry]

Thanks for the video. I was looking at this bike and saw it was hard tail, which I didn't like. No it's a definite no to lyric

[@Lucas-nh2mk]

Top speed?

[@thetechgenie7374]

For the lyric graffiti going on flat around 34mph to 35mph seeing in people videos doing top speed runs. My bike on in video is 60mph

[@johnfisherman2859]

No rear suspension on a bike like that should be a NO from anyone

[@zbart31]

So if someone were to buy a Graffiti and wanted to upgrade the dual batteries to hit 50 mph, where would you find some that would fit with either the existing or ships with a base?

[@Reciorichard64]

Would you compare the lyric graffiti vs the Rumble works mighty Apex?

[@gordonlardi5194]

Beware of the claims made by Lyric cycle they are a bunch of amateurs selling bikes that don't match their delivered products and do not use UL listed batteries

[@thetechgenie7374]

It kind of funny as they discontinued the original Lyric graffiti and came out with a new version called the Lyric graffiti X and funny as it exactly how I stated the bike sure have been made from the beginning. They finally when with a 60v battery and looks to be a 3k to 5k motor and dual rear suspension. Then they came out with a Lyric graffiti 2023 for budget side with a 1k watt motor with the old design pretty much but now being honest about the specifications? I still finished with that company as they have yet to get any apology and then at least admitting to any wrong and was false advertised to begin with. Shame as the Lyric graffiti X and Lyric graffiti 2023 for budget model with the real specifications is the bikes they sure have came out with the first time around and they literally would have taken over the market and made a good name for themselves and a real super73 killer.

[@GordonLardi]

@@thetechgenie7374 When I mentioned your review as I awaited my Graffiti, they told me you didn't know what your talking about (i have the email) turns out you were spot on my brother. I would never do business with them again!!!

[@thetechgenie7374]

@@GordonLardi Of course they will state that. They were selling a false advertised bike hoping people won’t know any better and they won’t be called out. Even large reviewers are staying away from reviewing the bike, as they likely don’t want their name associated with that bike. The way I see it as mission accomplished as, the lyric graffiti become irrelevant and not the super 73 killer they were hoping for. Plus they came out with new models this time without releasing specs to replace the original lyric graffiti.

[@GordonLardi]

@@thetechgenie7374 You are well informed my friend and I only wish I listened to you before I bought the Graffiti!

[@thetechgenie7374]

@@GordonLardi If you look at the new Lyric Graffiti X they designed it as I stated the original Lyric Graffiti sure have been with 60v battery setup, 3k motor and high torque as well. That the bike they sure have done the first time around. That bike will go easily 40mph plus and climb hills. Even though they didn’t put the specifications. I know that motor as used it before and get 45mph out of it at 3k watts. They claim I don’t know what I am talking about but yet discontinued the old lyric graffiti and came out with a revised Lyric Graffiti X pretty exactly taking my ideas on how the bike sure have been built in the first place?

[@thelonercoder5816]

thank you for calling out these ebike scams. Need more channels like this instead of people shilling.

[@ebRyder]

Did I hear you say LUNA cycles is selling the Grafitti? Nope.

[@thetechgenie7374]

At one point they were but now definitely no. Plus LUNA cycles makes much better e-bikes.

[@ebRyder]

@@thetechgenie7374 They never did. I've done business with LUNA for years and I'm on their website almost every day. Are you even aware of the short time the Graffiti has been on the market? Apparently not.

[@thetechgenie7374]

@@ebRyder I done business with them for years as how I started to build my own e-bikes years ago. Yes early on they actually did had it on their site before the ridiculously long pre-order phase.

[@ebRyder]

@@thetechgenie7374 Lyric, or as you say it, Lyra has nothing currently or has ever had anything to do with Luna. How did your mind create this nonsense LOL?

[@kevinnashskitchen3517]

I like the new AR X52 step through. Mid step really. Kind of limited as to how you can add some extra juice to it.. I already have a Kepler as my main bike so I think a folding bike I can mod will be next. Something to take with me like 50 up to the cottage or on vacation without a bug hitch mounted carrier

[@kevinnashskitchen3517]

Can see OregonEbikerMark and his newer videos. He just received his Graffiti. I don't think he has done a high speed test yet. He keeps delaying the top speed thing 😂

[@davidwarner6755]

Hey sorry to keep bugging you with questions...but, what do you think of the Juiced Hyperscrambler vs. Onyx CTY2?

[@thetechgenie7374]

I would go for the Onyx Cty2 if you want power. Do like the dual battery on the new hyperscrambler and the look of it better is still 1000w motor and get you to 30mph and climb hill ok as a geared hub. I just don’t really like step though design of the Onyx cty2 but is personal preference. If you don’t care for that much power of the Onyx the hyperscrambler is a good choice or my favorite as rode one is a dual motor and dual battery and got to 35mph with my heavy weight and massive low end torque maintained speed as well up hill the Areil rider grizzly ebike is a good bike and a personal favorite of mines that got to personally try out and was nice and handles well and no fluff they try to push is just a good bike for what it is.

[@davidwarner6755]

@@thetechgenie7374 Wow, thanks for all the great advice. I do like the scrambler look better than the step through. That is why I was thinking Graffiti. But the Juiced Scrambler has quite a tall seat and I'm only 5'6. Maybe I'll go with the scrambler anyway. I'm torn between the Juiced Scrambler and the Onyx CTY2. Too bad it doesn't seem like the Graffiti is going to pull it off.

[@thetechgenie7374]

@@davidwarner6755 Same here look at the lyric graffiti as like the look and was even willing to sacrifice the no rear suspension but unfortunately they cut to many corners. I wish instead of them arguing and justifying the choice of battery they when with, that they since didn’t ship the bike to anyone yet just upgrade the battery to 60v and call it a day. Yes they have to take a lost on the battery screwup but they gain on tons more customers as the bike looks great otherwise and maybe next version do full suspension? The controller capable of 3000k watts as i personally used that controller on many builds myself but at higher voltages not at 52v, but 72v no problem with heat sink added to existing heatsink and good airflow out in the open.

[@DJDAVIDD]

Great review and I was thinking of getting lyric graffiti. For that price there selling should live up to what there clamming 2500watt due too regenerating breaks from what I hear you talking about. Great review 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 What about Ariel Rider Grizzly do a comparison and your thoughts.

[@ryandyson5398]

The voodoo from lyric is the comparison to the onyx and it’s got a 72 volt and 50 some amp hr goes 65 they say

[@thetechgenie7374]

The Onyx cty2 is pretty much same price bracket as the Lyric graffiti. The Onyx cty2 is the better bike and using 60v battery and 2500w motor nominal watts. The Lyric Voodoo is more in line with the Onyx RCR.

[@kevinnashskitchen3517]

Good calling them out on that supposedly 2,500 watt

[@GordonLardi]

I bought one and I am very sorry i did, listen to Tech Genie he speaks truth!!!!!!!!!

[@RandomMotoThings]

Cap

[@sm9798]

I emailed Lyric about the batteries, and was told the following. Yes the batteries are wired separately and the switch is for batt 1 or 2. With that said, and as the poster of this video pointed out, the claimed ratings are hard for me to find as being real. Math doesn’t lie, and @ 52v and 17.5ah, you get 910w of deliverable power to the motor. Even if they placed the batteries in parallel it still doesn’t add up. But I was assured the bike WILL run the same whether the batteries are being run in parallel or as they are as a single battery. This is a DEAL BREAKER for me, especially after watching this video, I bet your legs were sore for a few days!!

[@thetechgenie7374]

A 52v will give you 58.8v when fully charged. The 17.5Ah rating for the capacity the cells are rated for 8 amp continuous max 1c rating. They have pack configuration of 14s to get the 52v and 5p to get 40 amps continuous rating . So pack would be able to deliver 2352w when fully charged. Now problem is you can’t put at max cut off on those cells as voltage sag becomes a huge issue. So most put a 30 amp BMS, or rare few a 35amp BMS in case which is all that going to fit anyways in that size of Shark case they are using. So pack can only deliver if they when with the higher BMS of 35 amps 2058w continuous when battery fully top off as voltage drops off, so does the wattage? Now if they are using the more common 30amp BMS then it going to be 1764 watts at max before BMS cuts out. Even with all that stated the max the ASI BAC 855 controller can handle is 2000w and that peak and that it on a 52v setup and better suited for efficiency at 1000w to 1500w out of that BAC 855 controller. You can only get so much out of a small controller? They sure have when with VESC controller as would be FOC as well and 60v, or 72v setup. They are using a battery switch they claim to use rejuvenation braking. To be honest I rather them done away with rejuvenation braking as your not getting much back into the battery and stresses the frame dropouts as well as the battery as it dumping a inrush of current at one into battery packs. I seen bikes catch fire for very reason. Also frame dropouts get completely destroyed over time as tend to jerk more when rejuvenation braking is enabled and yes with good torque arms. Yes variable rejuvenation braking can help with brake pad wear down but honestly not much as I get 500 to 800 miles without it depending on quality of pads. Lyric sure have just eliminated the brake rejuvenation feature on the dual batteries version and did the battery blender on the dual battery bikes instead of switch? Also why not do a 6p configuration then they could have had a 21Ah battery capacity which is way more reasonable then a 17.5Ah with the amount of power they trying to achieve? Like I stated a minimum of 60v would’ve been enough?

[@rbaisey8628]

thanks for this video the bike looks good but they are gonna have alot of returns when people find out they cant use the full 2500 watts without a battery blender ,

[@thetechgenie7374]

They are telling people on Reddit that the bike has a 50 amp BMS and lying to people. It Impossible as they are definitely using Samsung 35e 18650’s in a 14s5p configuration which they confirmed on their specifications on their website. Those cells are rated at 8 amp each which would be 5 times 8 equals 40 amps which would be 2350 watt at top off volt of 59v on a 52v battery. Then the fact they are clearly using the smaller shark case and not jumbo and it 18650 and the max BMS you can fit is about 35 amps and likely the common 30 amps which is 1770 watts. You never want to push 18650 above 30 amps especially with those cells as I happen to know those cells well as I used on my build as voltage sag would be very bad and unacceptable and battery pack won’t last very long no where near the 500 plus life cycles. If let say they made a custom PCB to make a 50 amp BMS and don’t have to tell you what happens when you push a lithium batteries especially 2 amp each roll or times 5 pass it max continuous current rating? Let just say bikes will literally be fire. Reason why builders go to 21700 and is trying to pull 2500 plus watts best to go 60v or higher likely 72v but 60v you be able to push 60 amps continuous and 90 amps peak out of those packs with quality cells. At top off charge that would be 4038 watts if they when with a 60v battery which also give them plenty of headroom and then bike could for real do it 2500w nominal no problem. That why onyx cty2 and Surron when 60v Panasonic cells. I personally did on the bike riding in video a 72v 21700’s setup for very reason. Mostly everyone even cheap Chinese bikes gone away from using 18650’s and are now using 21700’s just due to more current a lot less voltage sag and better reliability with more cycles 1000 plus. Even cheaper Chinese bikes manufacturers are using Samsung 21700 cells as can be sourced cheap then the Tesla 21700 cells.

[@thetechgenie7374]

Also the problem is the reason they not using a blender is due to you lose the regeneration braking as not compatible. They sure have just done a larger 60v 30Ah pack more then enough room in frame? Make me wonder if bike is going to ever make it to production? As if they can’t hire good engineers to figure out what they are claiming not feasible with the current battery configuration using 8 amp 18650 cells at 14s5p configuration in small shark case they are using and that 17.5Ah is crap for a bike of it power rating then I wouldn’t trust them to make any bike period. If they are actually stupid enough to do a custom 50 amp BMS they might as well use no BMS at all as you have the same results. Yes their bike truly will be fire😅😅 No they not using more cells in parallel as they already stated Samsung 35e cell’s and 17.5Ah which is 5p. I haven’t got to nickel strip thickness to run a 50 amp setup and it going to have to be thicker then usual. It literally be the first standard shark case seen pull 50 amps? That bike definitely will be fire for sure quite literally.😂😂

[@jmamba3593]

Listening to you- Translates the riding experience into specs and numbers in the most understandable way and can sit here and stomach it! ✊🏼 To someone who is new, a novice to electrically modding their ebike- can really appreciate your intel. Keep doing your thing, your videos really teach and provide the assistance needed in the e bike community, serving their purpose I feel. Just subscribed- Good lookin’ out. Blessings to you!✊🏼

[@Mike-xq8bv]

What a crying shame 😢 thanks for your insight on this bike 1770 watts falls short from what they claim!! Plus no rear suspension again 😢

[@lyriccycles]

We have responded in detail below. This claim is not based in fact, but instead in opinion.

[@TXDTOWNALLTHETIME]

2 things everyone has is an asshole and a opinion.