Dust Collector Impeller Upgrade Test

In which we swap out the OEM impeller from a King Canada 120V 1.5HP dust collector for a replacement (larger) impeller from a Rikon ( P60-200-22), and learn how much better the flow is - along with a lesson in Ohm's Law.
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Bill Pentz Dust Collection Data: billpentz.com/woodworking/cyc...

[@sleepib]

Impeller vane angle does have a significant impact, curving forward will increase flow at no load, but curving back will increase static pressure.

[@brucejohnson1264]

I bought the 2hp dust collector from Wen, not harbor freight. The Wen comes with a 12 inch impeller already installed, and the total cost is less than the cost of "upgrading" one with an undersized impeller.

[@Wildersport]

My Harbor Freight 2HP was $151.00 after sale and coupon discounts. The Wen impeller was $35.00 delivered. Current list for the Wen 3403 2HP dust collector is $439.00. Now I barely squeaked calculus but but I am pretty sure $186.00 is less than $439.00, plus the brief project of doing the swap was kind of fun. At 5 microns, the filter bag needs to be replaced with a sub micron cartridge filter if you want to keep your lungs intact so that is going to be the same cost Wen vs. Harbor Freight. Not dissing the Wen, or peoples desire to not have to do a mod. But this is easy, and you can easily save $253.00 by taking a DIY approach. Which should be enough to get that cartridge filter!

[@bertaboy]

​@@Wildersport Something to take into account is that Has raised their prices where they are becoming less and less competitive. The going discounted rate for their 2hp collector is around $280 and Central Machinery has been excluded from their 20/25% off coupons for years now. At this point, it's just more practical to get the Wen dusf collector with the impeller already on it than buying the HF model just to mod it

[@dougcook1176]

The blower is fully loaded when the 6" inlet is wide open. When restricted down to the 2" hose it unloads the blower (less total air flow). The larger impeller increased the dynamic head or pressure available. That is why you saw an increase flow @ the 2" line. You didn't see an increase at the 6" inlet because you are restricted by the blower housing/bag filters.

[@FNR]

Note that the 2" line is actually a 2" line and a 4" line "y"ed off. The 4" line leads to a scoop at the back of the machine.

[@dougcook1176]

@@FNR Keep in mind that a 6" line has about 30 square inches of area and the 4' and the 2" line together have about 16 square inches along with whatever hose losses you have. The larger impeller created a larger pressure difference which allows the 2" to flow more. The total mass flow is relatively unchanged restricted likely by the bag filters.

[@tazblink]

Any idea if the Harbor freight 2 hp motor can be rewired for 220/240?

[@FNR]

You’d have to download the user manual and check there. The King was designed to work either way.

[@alphonse53]

@@FNR The HF motor isn't convertible because there is only one field winding. Your motor has two, which are wired parallel for 120V and series for 240V.

[@Wildersport]

I'm a bit shocked by the big uptake in amperage with the new impeller. On the HF 2HP DC, this upgrade took it from 16amps to 16.9 amps. Wish I had one of those air flow meters though.... Would be nice to test at the end of the run... What I can say is be careful where you leave small drill bits or it will end up in the dust bag!

[@FNR]

I was running the XCarve on the same circuit, so new impeller was enough to push the draw over the edge. With the dust extractor, a DeWalt trim router, the XCarve steppers, and a computer on the same breaker, it’s a bit of a miracle that it ever worked at all. Converting the motor to 220 and moving it to its own 220V 30A circuit solved the problem.

[@user-ej6sm5gl4j]

Oo😊ooo

[@user-ej6sm5gl4j]

​@@FNR o😊o

[@user-ej6sm5gl4j]

​ o😊o

[@user-ej6sm5gl4j]

​ 😊oooooo😊ooo😊oooopoo😊o😊o😊

[@michaelkaine345]

Do you have a model or part number for the impeller?

[@FNR]

P60-200-22

[@percyfaith11]

Does putting the larger impeller cause more strain and overheat on the motor?

[@FNR]

Not on my machine, but mine had a motor sized appropriately. So long as the motor is reasonably specced, you should be fine.

[@sandboxumd5010]

Any suggestions for removing the impeller? I'm trying to upgrade a HF dust collector and am unable to pull the existing impeller off of the shaft. I've tried a 3-jaw puller and also using the existing 6mm LHT SHCS and washer on top of a short piece of pipe over the shaft and bearing on the impeller . Neither budged the impeller, even after heating and using penetrating oil. Any other tips?

[@FNR]

Mine came right off with a 3-jaw puller.

[@scottrobert2044]

im having the same problem. My HF impeller is completely stuck on there. I tried a 2 jaw puller and a 3 jaw puller with no luck.

[@gregoryvanek9038]

@@scottrobert2044 this is a bit late, but I drilled and tapped 3 5/16” holes in the base of the fan and used my steering wheel puller. I also broke the hub with a claw puller.

[@CGphotoOp]

I added a dedicated 20 amp breaker to my panel and a 20amp outlet for the HF dust collector. Will it be enough if I swap out the impeller?

[@FNR]

I would expect you’d be OK. I had a couple of other tools on the same 15A circuit and almost got away with it, so a dedicated 20A circuit should be fine.

[@Renrondog]

Others have reported that the motor is capable of just under 15Amps draw which is a 2HP motor. A 20A circuit will be fine. Make sure you use 12ga wire not 14ga. :)

[@rogerwhoareyou]

14 Guage wire is for 15 amp circuits, 12 guage wire is for 20 amp circuits.

[@percyfaith11]

@@Renrondog that 15 amps is probably at 120 volts.

[@stevesiefken6432]

What is the CFM at the end of your hose when you upgraded to 220v?

[@FNR]

I didn't measure it. I expect it to be about the same - the motor still has the same power level on 220V, it just draws less amperage.

[@jzahirniak]

@@FNR Not exactly...converting from 110 to 220 just splits the same amperage between 2 legs. Here, had you just swapped the 15a breaker for a 20a you would probably not be tripping it like you were. This is just explaining it in the hypothetical...dont just swap in a bigger breaker because the wiring between the breaker and outlet is probably not rated for that load. You were tripping a 15a breaker because you changed the physics of the motor/impeller combo. If you are now pulling more amps in total, then you are also making more HP. It might not be significant but technically you are making more power now.

[@danaitken2511]

I bet that big impeller would perform a lot better if the vanes were angled the other way

[@FNR]

There is some interesting reading on impeller design out there, and a lot of impeller design parameters are counter-intuitive. Lacking access to either the King Canada or Ricoh engineers, we don’t know what design constraints either were working within. It seems reasonable that the King engineers were trying to maximize performance within the 110V/15A power envelope; Ricoh’s design may be related to sound control - which is understandable, as I think the flow choke point in the system is now the diameter of the outflow hose. Notwithstanding, I converted the motor to 220V, and I’m happy to say I’m now spinning the big rotor with no issues and that the XCarve is now effectively dust-free.

[@rogerwhoareyou]

The angle and direction of the blades will also affect the current draw of the motor.

[@colormeblooodred8500]

Like for reading bill pentz site))

[@joedebosco3047]

would have been nice if you showed us how you removed the impeller!

[@FNR]

You remove the sheet metal screws on the cover housing, pop the housing off, unbolt the impeller, and slide it off. Didn’t even need a gear puller - it was a sliding fit.

[@joedance14]

@@FNRThanks!

[@JeremyElliott]

Seriously consider the "[3403-022] Turbo Fan for WEN 3403" instead of the Rikon. It's 1/3 the price.

[@jonathangrenier3564]

Carefull to not burn your motor. NEMA. The clause regarding motor current rating in NEMA Std. MG 1, 12.47 is short and to the point: “When operated at rated voltage, rated frequency, and rated horsepower output, the input in amperes shall not vary from the nameplate value by more than 10%.” This means the actual full-load current can be as much as 10% below or 10% above the value given on the nameplate. For example, if the motor nameplate rating is 100A, any value between 90A (10% less than 100) and 110A (10% greater than 100) could indicate a full-load condition.

[@jzahirniak]

I suspect this is not much of an actual issue. Is the spec listed just the output with the OEM impeller installed...or was it a limit of the motor's windings. I suspect it's the former or folks would burning up motors as you suggest and coming back to say DONT DO THIS. Considering folks have been doing this for years now I suspect would would have heard something by now. The long-term question nobody doing these swaps addresses though is the longevity of the motor. Its probably, practically impossible to say what impact it has on them because they are cheap Chinese motors and consistency between one and another is not tight in the first place...so any considered results might be anecdotal at best. Again though, we just dont hear about motor failures and I think we would have by now.

[@ScreamingEagleFTW]

its not really a win though. The motor is drawing more amps than its rating. and when you convert to 220 its going to draw more than its rating of 6 amps which will burn up the motor .

[@XxMalabooo]

If you break the motor collect; how the fck do you get the impeller off???

[@SkootchabitWoodjya]

It would be even better if the vanes were reversed.