Recycling & Processing 18650s from Laptops - 12v Solar Shed

[@phonixzero]

A lot of powerwall videos out there but you do a better job explaining things than most! Thanks and keep up the awesome work!

[@AdamWelchUK]

Very kind of you. Thanks.

[@BY504A]

Looking forward to your 18650 power wall series. Always enjoy your content. Take care.

[@AdamWelchUK]

Thank you!

[@Cavalier_Steve]

Hi Adam nice video, when I was harvesting 18660 Cells I also charged the low / no voltage ones at a small current to bring them back. I will look forward to your coming project. Cheers. All the best. Steve.

[@NERDVilleUK]

Very excited and hate winter too. Hopefully warming up for another year of great vids too. Look forward to how your DIY PowerWall develops.

[@AdamWelchUK]

It's been a while since we've heard from you Mr Ville. We're all still on tenterhooks regarding your laptop battery mountain.

[@ahaveland]

Glad to see you're getting more into 18650s and following HBPowerwall. I got bitten by the bug too last year and have since collected a couple of thousand free cells from local laptop service shops - when you've got thousands of cells to process you'll go nuts testing them at 500mA, so you'll soon want a rack of Opus chargers to munch through them like Daniel aka DIY Tech & Repairs made. (I recommend you follow him too if you aren't already).

[@AdamWelchUK]

Yes you're absolutely right - 500mA would send me potty with that many cells and you've noticed my mistake - DIY Powerwalls is the forum, not the youtube channel. Thanks for the tip, I'll take a look at DIY Tech & Repairs.

[@DIYTechRepairs]

Welcome to the 18650 powerwall gang :) We are a few now doing it :P

[@zogworth]

Are you going to meet the two ton lead cube crew and have a west side story dance battle?

[@jz4958]

One of the best KZbin channel on this topic.

[@AdamWelchUK]

Very kind - thank you.

[@emmseehammer]

G'day Adam, from Down Under, I've been a follower for ages and look forward to your videos - this one is no exception - outstanding Middle of summer here (currently 3pm and 42C) and am spending time in the AC recovering used cells from the usual laptop batteries. I find most (50 batteries for 400 cells) laptop batteries have 2 cells that are stuffed, to use the technical term, and most of the rest exceed 2200mah. So about 300 usable cells, after testing and resting. Aldi here (is Aldi on the small island?) had 4ah LiIon power tool battery packs for $20 AUD (~$13eu) new. 10 Samsung 20R cells per unit. Average capacity (charging to 4v and discharge to 3v) has been 2745mah. Ecstatic! I've been using a genuine SkyRV B6AC V2 to charge, discharge and capacity test recovered cells and am quite pleased with it. I'm building a Powerwall to fit to my Motorhome/RV to replace 12 volt AGM's. I Use/burn 1.3kwh @ 12volts per 24 hours before Solar input/alternator input/battery charger input. Looking at the optimum configuration. Would 4S/10P give me enough? Many thanks for all the support over the past 2 years.

[@AdamWelchUK]

Cheers Mike, really appreciate that. We do have Aldi yes, and that's an interesting source of cells if the price comes in at a sensible level - I'll bob down. What charge controller are you using for this 12 volt pack? I'm just not sure 12 volts works terribly well with lithium. I can't seem to make 3s or 4s fit. I covered this way back when I did my first charging lithium via solar video. Theory has it, 2745mAh per cell should give you a capacity of 462 watt hours (27.4Ah*16.8v=462) if you charge them all the way up to 4.2 volts (and discharge them all the way down to ~3 volts). I think it is falling short of your target, even though some of your consumption is presumably in the day and will come straight from solar.

[@emmseehammer]

G'day again Adam, I'm using the EPEVER TRIRON 20A MPPT modular Solar Charge Controller. I will go back and review your 'charging Lithium via solar' video. What are my other choices? Most of my RV output will be to 12 volt gear - lights, water pump, chargers, compressor fridge (although it will run on 24 volt), TV/PVR. Kitchen gear would be about all I need an inverter for and 500 watts of inverter handles what I use. Given the fridge is the biggest power hog by far (average 48 amps a day), should I go with a 24 volt battery (7S) and buck convert down for my 12 volt needs? Any other tops greatly appreciated! TIA

[@AdamWelchUK]

You can adjust the charging parameters of the TriRon to suit your 4s pack because every setting can be set between 9-17 volts (there are just the rules you need to take into account that the equalization voltage must be higher than the float etc.) so then it comes down to how tolerant your 12 volt equipment is. You'd imagine that they will all work between say 11 and 14 volts because that is typical of a automobile situation, but what happens with them if you charge your pack up to perhaps 16 volts or 4v per cell? Some of the items will have datasheets you can find - others may not. Running a higher voltage pack has a couple of advantages. It means you can use lower gauge cables because you're pulling less current for the same wattage, and inverters are generally a bit more efficient when the jump between the dc voltage and the ac is less. However if most of your kit is 12 volt then converting the 24 volts down for everything but the fridge will also have its losses. You'd also need to think about your panels - because you'll need their voltage to be higher than your battery pack. No firm answers there, but hopefully some more information to chew on?

[@emmseehammer]

G'day Adam, On your 'Theory has it' above - if I'm using a 10P pack wouldn't that then give me 27.4*16.8*10=4620 or if I use 7S @ 4 volts and average 2500mah - 25ah*28v*10P=7000 Wh? or am I incorrect in my calcs here?

[@emmseehammer]

My panels are 24 volt 250 watt x 2, so that shouldn't be an issue.

[@leeglasgow7844]

Hi Adam - enjoy your teaching, I am building the same 4x5, would your share the yellow bracket 3d printing info.

[@SuperBrainAK]

awesome!! I am in the process of sorting all my cells, all the cells I got for free from work have been actual bad packs so I am probably going to have a high failure rate (ones that arent up to par) but hey all the batteries I have were at no cost so my total system would be alot cheaper.

[@AdamWelchUK]

All the cells I've previously been using have been free to me. Sadly the flow has dried up so I took the plunge and bought some. I was interested to see what the quality would be like - and I think ive been pretty lucky with these cells.

[@unpluggedEV]

What was the trigger to upgrade from the existing 12V system to a 24V system? Clearly most low voltage equipment is designed to run with 12V...

[@offgriddreaming5403]

Hi Adam Good to see you having a play with lithium again. Hope you find some more good cells at a great price! Maybe the BMS8 could work for this system? Cheers

[@AdamWelchUK]

Yes, well you can see why I was interested now. I have had a good look at it, but think I've found something even more interesting (well to me it is). I think a usable 1kWh is probably all the shed needs - and as much as the roof space could charge!

[@offgriddreaming5403]

Adam Welch Look forward to seeing what you've found. Yes 1kw will be handy

[@Learjet66]

You wont be using flat battery holders anymore then? I have built a 3s80p from your original battery holder idea. The grand advantage being able to swap out cells with ease to upgrade or replace cells in the PW. It is working very well. And I'm about to build another.

[@AdamWelchUK]

I have an issue with space in the shed and the flat arrangement takes up a lot of desk or wall space. Placing the cells into blocks is a much more efficient use of space. I still think the flat arrangement works well (and has advantages over the block idea) in some situations though. Anyway - I'm glad to hear your arrangement is working well.

[@maicod]

I got the AccuPower IQ328+ charger. Similar in function as yours it seems.

[@HellFireno88]

Will you use any of the previous parts? Like that black voltage tester / balancer and the mppt? Would love to see a finished working system and how you got there. I've got plenty of 18650 cells, but I want to start out small ( cheap mppt etc)

[@AdamWelchUK]

Due to the size increase I'm not sure the capacity controller will be up to the job. It only balances at about 50ma if I remember. I could reuse the charge controller (which is PWM actually) because I'm not intending to throw any more solar panels at this system (purely because I haven't the roof space). If you want to start out small, my little test pack has been running (and expanding) for the last 18 months. It's been working really well.

[@HellFireno88]

Ok. Looking forward to more videos in this series :-) I just want to create a proof of concept before I decide if I want to invest in bigger solar panels, charge controllers, balancer, inverters etc.

[@leandrofrola]

Hi adam! I really like your videos!! Your analysis it's very interesting. I've a little question: what's the best "tester" (charge/discharge/recharge) in your opinion? Now I'm using the opus tester but it doesn't give me the resistance information. Do you think that it is an important feature? Thank you so much!! Good job and good life, Leandro

[@fourzerofour7860]

I keep meaning to get more 18650 cells; but I have of late not been able to find more reasonably priced used laptop batteries. I think we're all driving up the ebay price. :P Keep going, and nice job on the bracket to hold them to the rail! Did you make that yourself?

[@AdamWelchUK]

Yes I designed and printed the DIN rail bracket - but it is a complete rip off of Paul Kennetts small blocks din rail bracket. Sadly laptop batteries are becoming more expensive as people realize they have some value.

[@thediydude4110]

you should get a midnite solar charge controller and review it.

[@welshnutterz]

Adam have you decided on what method your going to use for your balancing?

[@AdamWelchUK]

This is a video in itself! I'm wondering how even they will stay if I am very careful on how I group the cells. If I can make them very even then it might be that my small balancing solution my have enough grunt to keep them even balanced. If not I've been looking closely at an alternative with a bit more power.

[@howardadams4072]

Hi Adam, I balance my battery pack by constantly cycling a same voltage auxiliary battery to each battery in turn. In this way over voltage batteries charge the aux batt and lower voltage batteries get charged. This wastes no power unlike other systems that load the higher cells with a resistance.

[@jakobhovman]

Hello Howard...This sounds rerally interresting...! Do you have a schematic or more details for your set up...? Greetings for now...Jakob.

[@AdamWelchUK]

A very neat idea, I think I have seen this idea somewhere. I'm a fan of the smaller losses. Love to hear and see some more if you have documented it somewhere?

[@goldmaxxx537]

Hi Adam, you say 1.4kwhrs? - at 6.55, for a 7s20P. can you explain the maths for working this out please.

[@AdamWelchUK]

The average cell in my pack has over 2.5 amp hours of capacity. As you say there is 20 cells in parallel so that’s 20*2.5=50Ah. The nominal voltage of the cells is 3.7 volts, so with seven in series that’s 25.9 volts for the total pack. Finally 25.9 volts multiplied by the 50Ahs is 1.295KWhs (I got it wrong if I said 1.4KWhs).

[@caserio323]

hi can you share the 3d print file for this holders please? can you send me a link thank you keep the Good Job thankyou

[@AdamWelchUK]

Yes here it is - admw.uk/kk

[@tbbw]

Please add it to the description :)

[@caserio323]

tanx

[@_Piers_]

Your council must be much better than mine, we're only allowed to put plastic bottles in our recycling bin :(

[@geovannicruel9360]

Hello KZbin it what is the Jell-O Brocker I wanna buy I don’t know the name to the Jell-O bracket

[@jamest.5001]

what do you search for to get these batteries?

[@tbbw]

Is the yellow battery din-rail holder something your willing to share? :)

[@AdamWelchUK]

Yes. Should be here... admw.uk/kk

[@tbbw]

Oh nm... it was answered below buried in the comments... umm... maybe add it to the description since i'm pritty sure i'm not the only one that will ask for it :)

[@spikeydapikey1483]

Cool! I just need a charge/discharge intelligent charger. I've got the Xtar VC4, but no discharge function :o(

[@AdamWelchUK]

The standard that people seem to use is the Opus C3100. I have one of those but as I started on my liitokala it is my bench mark. All done now anyway, and although using a different charger may have been faster these have sat around for quite a while now waiting for me to get my act together.

[@spikeydapikey1483]

Cheers for that :o)

[@johncoops6897]

The Opus C-100 is actually an improvement on the circuit of C3100, but one channel instead of 4. I use the Liitokala single and dual port like yours, and then I have 4 x C100's intead of a C3100. The reason is that the Opus is probably the best analysing charger, but the C3100 doesn't support LifePO4 unless you chop it to access the internal switch on the PCB underneath. And that switch changes all 4 bays from 3.7V to 3.2V. The C100 supports LifePO4 in software, so you can choose it in the menu.

[@Edmorbus]

Thanks for sharing can you share the 3d print file for this holders

[@AdamWelchUK]

Yep - admw.uk/kk

[@Edmorbus]

Thanks

[@baldpig2k12]

I have noticed that the failure of a lot of HP batteries seems to be the supporting circuitry, it's weird

[@AdamWelchUK]

I've heard it suggested that the fail safe modes on some laptop battery BMSs will kick in for various reasons. Too many cycles, heat, left uncharged for too long. The question is have they failed because of poor design, or are they designed to fail? I don't know.

[@ufohunter3688]

It has been documented that US military charges these batteries to 3.9V and gets about 10 times the life (30,000 cycles) as if they were charged to 4.2V (3,000 cycles) You might want to consider that.

[@DIYTechRepairs]

LiIon generally dont go above 500 cycles if you do a 80%DOD and charged to 4.2V. Depending on capacity left. 3000 cycles is generally more of a LiFe cell sbut this is LiIon

[@AdamWelchUK]

I've been charging my smaller 7s packs to 4.0 and I've personally run them for a year (wouldn't really say 365 cycles though) and lost very little in the way of capacity. I've done a video about it, if you haven't seen it. Thanks for that.

[@DIYTechRepairs]

Yeah mine goes only to 4V as well and have had packs for over 2 years now with kind of 0 degradation. How long they last is another thing and in my case i generally dont do more than 20%DOD per day since my battery bank is huge.

[@RWBHere]

The cycle count for Lithium (and other??) cells is calculated by manufacturers as the number of _complete_ charge/discharge cycles. If you only charge them half way, and then discharge them, it's counted as 0.5 cycles. Have you any way of verifying how the military define a cycle? They may be counting each partial charge/discharge as a cycle. So if that is the case, then they might, for example, be charging to ⅔ capacity and then discharging. That would give an apparent life of 3,000 cycles, which is, by the manufacturers' metrics, only 2,000 cycles. There may well be a _real_ increase in service life, as could be expected after studying the chemical and physical changes over time, and considering the effects of charging and discharging todifferent end-point voltages. Some clarification of. the claims would help greatly here.

[@ufohunter3688]

My own tests showed there was only 400mAh between 4.2V and 3.9V on a 2400mAh cell @C/10. They discharge to 3.0V as usual. I am sure there must be a reason they do that on expensive military grade cells.

[@jakobhovman]

Hello Adam...good to se you are continuing and expanding your video-demo series on 18650's...! Have a look at this video of a great charger-balancer, ISDT T8, very interresting specs: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2naaIZ6mp2ZkKM

[@AdamWelchUK]

Thanks - I got hold of the ISDT BG-8S after Julian reviewed it on his channel. I like some of its features but I don't think it is the solution for me - especially as my pack is growing. I will keep you up-to-date.

[@jakobhovman]

Glad you have iit...! I am making your 7s8p set up. For that it will be fine. PS: just saw Julians video...He mentions "dumping" the excess capacitance Back in to the input power...much like Howaed (below) does. Sounds like the way forward and to reserve energy-...! Yes...I will keep following your work...perhaps time for a "Aeduino-shift register-balancer-thingy"...?! Greetings my friend...all the best.

[@oldtimeengineer26]

cool but 20p 7s is 24v you forgot your title it says 12v see what 18650 can do to you -:)

[@AdamWelchUK]

You’re right of cause. Perhaps I should drop that out of my titles? I might have to if the 24 volt pack has more capacity than the 12 volt pack! :-)