Did Gates of Discord kill the spirit of Everquest? Or give it longevity?

Perhaps Everquest's second most controversial expansion, Gates of Discord came with a lot of baggage, and may have continued the decline of the once mighty MMO. But if you're playing Everquest today. There's some things you should know about what changed with the release of two expansions: Lost Dungeons of Norrath and Gates of Discord.
Join me as we discuss the major changes that came with those expansions and cover some chase items you'll want to keep your eye on if you plan on playing through them on the Everquest progression servers.
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[@jollyruthless8219]

Here is my take on progression. When I first started playing EQ the idea of progression was in the game, but it was not the sole purpose. Progression was rarely defined by the game. It was a player deciding they want to have more AC, or can I get my mana to 4000. You logged in and became part of another world, you explored and learned about a world. There was magic in exploring and meeting another adventure and teaming up to take on LockJaw. Then the direction of MMOs changed, they became streamlined and directed. It is why so much content becomes irrelevant and “Not worth doing”. Well if you are only trying to obtain more power then yes it is irrelevant. If you're playing to experience the world and set goals, then you can find meaning in all content. Having just played LDoN, GoD and OoW on a TLP it was a lot of fun, but I am on a raiding guild, and we have a progression path and we set a goal and accomplished it. But there is a part of me who longs to organically meet other people who are so exploring and going on an adventure.

[@Redbeardflynn]

Those are great points and I couldn't agree more. I mean I remember thinking back that my idea of progression was getting the blue sparkles added to my buffs because they looked cool and powerful. I think the larger mmo's get, the more and more you'll have "dead" content which is really a shame. I think a lot of MMOs could learn to recycle content but in new ways. As bad as a lot of things about the game are, I personally really loved the idea of WoW's cataclysm because it essentially re-made old zones tied to lore and revitalized them. I'm really glad to hear you're enjoying your progression server journey in a raid guild! I loved that experience on the last set of progression servers and we definitely were trying to push content. I actually loved chasing the dps meter, which I know is somewhat controversial but I always wanted to be the top or near the top dps...while also not messing up mechanics.

[@Unchainedfury]

Don't forget how broken the game was on live, it was virtually unplayable untill OoW. Another thought which immediately burst into everyone's head, "Oh great, more ****** shards" as we reflected upon Luclin. With the LoY expansion, the LFG tool started us down the path towards erasing the unimaginable interactions within the game from players out just exploring and looking for adventure. LDoN was the noticeable start of this artificial void we were placed in and I recall going through those terrible missions without even knowing who I was grouping with. Players que'd with LFG tool and never chit chatted or spoke during those runs as they were time based and killing until completion. The game lost its soul at this point and everyone at the time knew it. Guilds had no reason to ever speak to one another and neither did most people, all in an effort to cater to those with less time (WoW) in a misguided attempt to increase profits. One should never artificially limit interaction if you truly wish for your game to be something special. Long live the magic! ~

[@Redbeardflynn]

@@Unchainedfury I think you can chalk a lot of the issues with GOD and LDon and even LoY to "trying to compete with WoW" which was a strange road to take when at the same time they were launching EQ2 which was a direct competitor to WoW (same style of combat, for example). There were definitely missteps taken at the time. On progression though, I found I enjoyed the *fixed* version of GoD especially since the raids were hard, but not impossible and it still felt easier to get keyed for than say Veeshan's Peak or VT...you mentioned shards and I just shuddered...those damn shards.

[@alphadragongamingFTW]

​@@Redbeardflynn For me I felt EQ2 was far superior to WoW. While they launched very close to each other, and From what I understand some EQ2 people even worked on WoW the combat in EQ2 was much more complex. WoW was a 2 stat system from what I remember. the Characters Main stat such Str or Int or Wis, Then Constitution. in EQ2 Every stat had meaningful bearing on the character. As a Shadow Knight for instance Strength contributed to my melee Damage while Intelligence contributed to my spell damage and Agility and Dexterity helped contribute to my Armor factor and how I avoided damage. SO the fun part was trying to manage those to be the best set up you could be. I knew some SKs that concentrated more on Intelligence to boost up their spell damage than Strength. With Spell Casters Agility and Dexterity also contributed to how well you could cast your spells while in combat and not be interrupted, ETC. But it was their 7th Expansion Destiny of Velious that changed all of that and it is when EQ started to become a power game similar to WOW and started the change to a 2 stat system. Constitution + the main stat for what ever class it was. With the release of DOV they started to cater to extremely high amounts of damage because it looked impressive to see these huge spell hits or huge melee hits similar to WoW. That was in my opinion the start of the Downfall of EQ2... That is just my 2 cents. I played EQ1 off and on from early 1999 and I left for the first time after Kunark. I got sucked in to DAOC, played that till WoW came out Tried WoW and after a few months just could not get in to it. I went back to DAOC again and then lost interest because they did quite a few updates that caused a lot of the player base to leave. I ended up going back to EQ1 and then when EQ2 came out tried that for quite sometime and that ended up being my main game until about 5 years ago when I stopped all together because the game was just not fun anymore. I am not a power gamer and do not enjoy Raiding for 2 hours 4 times a week then logging off because there was no one on to group with. That is what EQ2 became. A game for just power gaming. Through out the the past 15 years though I have gone back and forth with EQ1, p99 and even some original DAOC content on Emulators which were really fun. BUT.... EQ1 still to this day remains my true 1 love when it comes to MMORPGs. BTW... Good job on this video! Really enjoyed it. I just wanted to kind of give a history of my experience in Gaming :)

[@nulltheworm]

I like the Caverns of Time in World of Warcraft. Because you're basically taken back to major events in old zones to experience important events in the larger storyline. I think the Mage Tower effectively does this with dungeons. EQ could have done something like that to bring players back -- at least in some way. Or maybe they tried to, but it came long after I was gone. 😁

[@stabgod]

I left EQ1 at GoD. After spending so much time and effort getting epic, VP keyed, VT flagged, then Time flagged, plus hours of endless raiding to gear up properly, only to start the whole thing over again in an expansion where trash mobs quad for 10k, most tanks couldn’t survive simple exp groups. I had a 12k tank, no slouch at the time, and barely made it in exp groups with solidly geared Guildies. We ended up dragging one or two random class (tanks) guildies in exp groups with one healer and two or three charm classes. Three charm pets would slaughter anything in seconds. Exp grinds were basically just send in pets and sit around out if agro range. Keep up a rezzer for when charm breaks, everyone else does nothing but stay out of any agro. Yippee, what great fun. Fully elemental pally standing around for an occasional rez to the enchanters. Nope, thrill was gone and the prospect of more flagging and gearing just to survive a flurry was no too much.

[@raouldegrunt2685]

The most I remember from Gates of Discord and the subsequent expansions ... I quit EQ1 for EQ2 in 2004 .. is the realization "Ow, wait the mobs hit so much harder, but also die faster. That is different" :) I absolutely loved PoP, although I was more of a casual player contributing to a decent guild of only Dutch-speaking people, and just was very interested in what more they would bring in subsequent expansions.

[@herbertatchison3892]

I left EQ for EQ2 as well, so did my EQ friends. I think the EQ2 and WoW launches is what had the impact

[@Redbeardflynn]

You and I quit at the same time! I quit with GOD when it originally launched and went to EQ2 as well. I only got to fully experience GoD in progression servers when it was more properly tuned. It's still tough, but I'd say Underfoot is the steeper expansion currently. I'm glad you enjoyed PoP! I loved it, mostly just for the lore. The lore was incredible.

[@Redbeardflynn]

@@herbertatchison3892 That's fair! I did the same! I left for Eq2. I think GoD having a poor launch (perhaps a rushed launch to compete with WoW) did it no favors, but it was probably a losing battle anyway.

[@Mr.Mister1974]

What really hurt EverQuest in my opinion and experience. Expansions every six months. Not all of us could afford that or keep up. I met so many players who kept trying however gave up. They did not fix a lot of bugs many which still exists today took them now to make it 64 bit to supposedly allow more memory and better graphics. Then the introduction of station store, mercenaries .

[@Redbeardflynn]

All very valid internal factors that stopped eqs growth. The external factors of increased competition like world of warcraft, final fantasy 11, daoc...etc. definitely hurt as well.

[@Mr.Mister1974]

@@Redbeardflynn just like what is going to hurt Pantheon Rise Of The Fallen, taking forever to come out, death of Brad McQuaid, a lot more games, Xbox, playstation 5 unlike when EverQuest came out.

[@Redbeardflynn]

@@Mr.Mister1974 I think the mmo market is more mature than it was in 2004 though. We've reached a point where you can have sub genres in the mmo space. The continued existence of so many different mmos that appeal to different sections of the mmo audience at least to me makes me feel like the genre is in a good place ripe for smaller games to find their audience and succeed. And a smaller game today could still very easily surpass everquests peak.

[@aardee]

This was why I ultimately stopped playing: I kept buying expansions that were full of content that I was too low level to access and just kept falling further and further behind.

[@6StringPsychedelic]

I remember when GoD came out, it sure was rough, the raid progression was brutal, raids took hours and hours, full of CR's and trying again.. It was out of balance but I think it was a great expansion.When you finally beat Tacvi, we felt on top of the world! haha The mob models were fantastic, unlike how they just reuse everything these days.

[@IonBlaze1]

Great video Redbeardflynn. Didn't think about how Ldon & GoD shifted the game towards augs, instances, & alt currencies. Funny editing with the lizard.

[@Redbeardflynn]

Thank you so much! I think they were unexpected turning points mostly because of when they came out. There was a lot of other things going on

[@nulltheworm]

I've decided that I'm going to come back to EverQuest for the TLP server on May 25th. I played P99 a few years ago, but too much about the servers frustrated me. All the raid drama, the inability to have a chance at your epic (as a mage) without paying 500k in plat to loot it, and the slow grind -- I'm well intoy 30s now. I don't want to deal with that anymore. BUT... I'm excited for the TLP server this time around. It will probably be my last full go at EverQuest, so I plan to grab an annual sub and see how many expansions I can stick around for and make it through. Should be interesting. 😁

[@gerainedoss7123]

I was in a topguild during GoD, Cestus Dei. Our main tank was Gster and if memory serves, he was the first to complete the BiC quest server wide. He was a BEAST, really cool dude as well. Good times! 👏👏

[@siler7]

I remember that name. Was he also the first to get his 2.0?

[@gerainedoss7123]

@@siler7 yeah, I believe he was.

[@charlesmartel3995]

I worked with the designer that worked on Gates of Discord when he was a GM. He didn't have much experience going into the role and that showed in how the mobs were not tuned properly. From what I hear GoD was retuned and is now much better.

[@Redbeardflynn]

Oh that's awesome! Thank you for sharing thet. I can confirm it's definitely much better now. I'm not sure when it was retuned but it's much more in line. Don't get me wrong, it's still hard, but the margin for error is much larger. Meant to say: great name and profile picture btw, ruler of Francia!

[@apointtomake1517]

Please tell me it was not Elidroth... To this day I can't stomach the mere mentioning of his name. The guy destroyed the warrior class while he was a "dev."

[@Theldren84]

Awesome video! I love the argument between the two in the beginning, "I will make own game!" "Oh yeah what you gonna call it" "NEW WORLD!" This had me in stitches :D I quit EQ back in the middle of Shadow of Luclin, not because the game got bad or anything I just was starting college and just had a lot on my plate. I didn't really get to try out LDoN or Gates, but my dad kept playing and he absolutely loved LDoN. I think a little instancing here and there can be great. IMO having open world dungeons, and sprinkle a little instancing here and there can appease both crowds, but always circles back to, "You can't please everyone"

[@Redbeardflynn]

Theldren, my friend! Thank you so much for the comment as always. I'm glad you liked the little argument. I had fun putting that together. I tend to agree with you. I like the idea of having a bit of both because it does give more options. I think when it goes to heavily into instancing it does shrink the world which can break any feeling of togetherness, but there is a time and place for it.

[@christopherg7483]

latest update also increased the total number of items droped from the LDON raids

[@Redbeardflynn]

Oooh! That's awesome. Thank you for sharing.

[@ShadistikExekutionDramus]

GoD brought with it insane raiding content and put my entire guild to the test. Finishing an encounter for the first time always felt so EPIC!

[@connix69]

It was adding all of the alternate currencies in each expansion that ran me and my friends off from EQ. If they had been actually alternate, it would have been fine. But, the game changed so that the alternate currencies were actually required in order to really advance. And then when the next expansion comes out, all of that alt currency from before essentially becomes worthless. It was a bad design choice.

[@Redbeardflynn]

In some ways I agree, in others I found the alternative currencies a boon. They made it easier for everyone on the raid to get gear instead of just a few people. It actually increased our raid attendance I think. They did a lot of tweaking recently too with the currency amounts which helps wirh progression servers. I think where it got annoying to me was multiple currencies in a single expansion, like underfoot.

[@ShmoofWB]

I played EQ from around 2002 to 2015 or so. I remember buying Gates of Discord when it came out but never really set foot in it until later on. At the time, one of the guilds on my server (cannot remember the name. It was something with an H.) was one of the top guilds in the game. They actually got into Tacvi when it was current but quit because it was just not clearable at the time. By the time I actually started playing it around level 70 and I think even early 75, many of its problems were smoothed out. I thought it had some of the best thematic zones and lore. The music was beautiful as well. One of the biggest problems I think was around this time World of Warcraft came out and Everquest never really recovered from that. As hardcore as early WoW was said to be, it paled in comparison to Everquest and Gates of Discord turning the difficulty up to 11. Plus, raid sizes of 54 with ever increasing complexity were something I always struggled with. In my final years playing EQ, my guild could maybe field in the 40s on a good night, and that included people playing multiple accounts. Compared to WoW who went from 40 to 25 and 10 and finally anywhere from 10-30 with flex difficulty. I wish there was a level 70 server out there somewhere ending at either Omens of War or Depths of Darkhollow. If there was raid instancing and original Sleeper's Tomb it would be perfect.

[@scotte6084]

I will always refer to GoD as GoD-awful. The guild I was in folded due to the insane dps of the mobs and the frustration of endless deaths. I took my first break from EQ (3 years) but eventually went back.

[@runepetersen5698]

Great video mate! My personal thoughts on this: GoD really never ever appealed to me - It was an expansion that was, so anti-casual, it wasn't even funny. It was geared and catered to the more hardcore end game players and offered very little to the "little guy". LDoN on the other hand, to me, was incredible, especially for the more casual minded players and provided good, solid content for everyone - Unless you were fully decked out in Elemental/Time gear, regular LDoN groups would yield rewards that was usable and those who were fully geared from PoP endgame would get upgrades from the LDoN raids. Back in the day, i actually ended up quitting/taking an extended hiatus from EQ due to how GoD worked, i had quit the hardcore scene during PoP and it offered so little content for me by then. During my TLP years, from Fippy to Mischief, i actually also skipped most of the GoD content, because i still didn't feel it was very appealing - The vibe of it was just off to me.

[@danpitzer765]

To this day, I generally try to avoid any 'at level' time in GoD or Omens. I don't find them fun, and really don't like the 'everything that matters at all summons and is immune to root and snare and moves at SoE speeds'. Darkhollow is a bit better, as they tied a lot of the freight train hitting to buffs that can be dispelled to get yourself some breathing room. I like to ignore Prophecy of Ro altogther, as I find it to largely just be obnoxious on every front, but most especially what it did to freeport.

[@Redbeardflynn]

Thank you so much! You're spot on I think. GoD was very much an expansion that felt designed for raiders and and top end players. I wonder if it is partially due to the rush to get it out in time to compete with the two behemoths (one of SOEs own making...) eq2 and wow. GoD, even tuned as it is now, can still be punishing. In the video, I was surprised I died on a lvl 92 sk for example (even in a raid zone) to the trash. It's not the hardest expansion, I think some of the later expansions have even less margin for error, but it definitely packed a wallop and was a big diversion from previous expansions. LDoN was definitely a very different and more even focus. I think I originally was so shocked by the fact that it was instanced I didn't give it enough credit (and I didn't raid back when it came out) but looking back at it now? Some of the zones were very interesting and the way they gave out gear was new and exciting for the game and they obviously found it played well because later expansions went all in on alternate currencies (and augs)

[@Redbeardflynn]

@@danpitzer765 I'm scared to do a video on Prophecy of Ro to be honest. Maybe I'll just make it a youtube short...

[@danpitzer765]

@@Redbeardflynn Before the PoR video, I'd personally try to solo CT. That's how much I don't like PoR.

[@Redbeardflynn]

@@danpitzer765 hahah!

[@dr.morbius]

I had started playing EQ in 2001 right after Velious launched and quit in 2002 because at the time I was not in a raiding guild. I came back in 2004 after GoD launched and encountered all the new content. Specifically PoP, LoY, LDoN, and GoD. I thought the progression in PoP was amazing. I was able to do most of it with pickup raids then finished off the rest when I joined a raiding guild. PoP is still my favorite expansion. GoD was very difficult compared to previous content and in my opinion unfun. You couldn't do anything there without a group. You are right about Tipt. It was insanely hard and could not be done by pickup groups without an enchanter, which I was playing at the time, because you needed to charm a Mountain Pooka and use it to tank the final boss. My understanding of what went wrong with GoD was that GoD and OoW were supposed to be one expansion but they decided to split it but didnt adjust the content in GoD to level 65. By the time I returned in 2004 the comments I heard people making in game was that GoD was too hard and a lot of people had quit and went to play City of Heroes. A few years ago I took a level 95 shadow knight and went to GoD and did as much of Breakdown in Communication as I could and got as far as step #11 Qvic before I had to stop because I could not solo Inktu'ta. It's a good and interesting quest.

[@Redbeardflynn]

GoD has been tuned and re-tuned over the years and on progression servers it's now a tough expansion but far from the toughest (I think I give that title to DoDH for raiding just because of the sheer number of mechanics.) I think it's in a really good spot now but it's still a tough one! Thank you for sharing some of your EQ story with us. I had a lot of fun reading it. I'm curious if you'll end up going back to finish that BiC quest at some point. It's definitely a good way to experience all of GoD.

[@SomeCanine]

I remember a patch note where they discussed the adjustment to lowering the insanely high atk stats of the monsters. I don't remember if they straight up said they tuned it to lvl 70 mobs. I think they did but I don't remember.

[@SmokyMountainsHauling]

GoD and OOW sucked the life out of EQ. At launch Craigbeast was unkillable by a 60+ man raid. It was ridiculous.

[@Tenpaths]

Tyl & I used to love running 6 Beastlord LDoN.

[@Redbeardflynn]

Oh that must have been awesome! So many pets...

[@everpals5412]

Love the video…Pokin and I will be watching more of them 😄 - Yarnax

[@Redbeardflynn]

Thank you so much! Glad you enjoyed it.

[@Skrimpish]

This is sort of when i stopped playing. Ldon was actually pretty fun at first but the instance thing got old and yes it was an oldschool dungeon crawl. BUT without other players creating chaos in a dungeon the life was removed... Augs was really for mid teir guilds who didn't have the time to raid the same raid 10 times hoping xyz dropped.

[@Merknilash]

I would argue that Kunark/Velious drifted pretty far away from the high fantasy vibe of classic EQ Not in a bad way, but it was still there Luclin shifted it even further, and then Gates took it into warp speed Classic EQ was still neat and imo it would have been cool to get an expansion that still has the theme and vibe of classic EQ (Ldon did not)

[@BerraLJ]

I done like one instance solo with my necro many years ago and some solo out door killing, i do agree though stuff hit like Mack trucks on dope, one thing that makes this area bit hard his if you quite playing for years and come back, figuring out how far along in the progress you are is hard, but this whole expansion reminds me of the key quest to Vex'Thal, tempted to do that one if you still can just cause why not, my characters are 85-87 so should be doable :)

[@Redbeardflynn]

:) Oh yeah I think you'll have no problem at all with the VT key!

[@fadedtimes]

I actually liked how challenging GoD was, our guild made it Qvic and only tried the raid after that a few times before the next expansion came out. I loved Ldon, I would run pick up groups and friends through for easy points/Loot. I was time geared and basically face rolled the instances.

[@madprophetus]

Gates of Discord was the straw that broke the camel's back for Everquest for a LOT of hardcore players. At the same time, a little game called World of Warcraft was gathering hype. There was an actual boycott of GoD, followed up with the leaders of many of EQ's top guilds being invited to a summit at SOE HQ. This ultimately led to Omens of War, which is arguably the best expansion on the game since Velious, but the damage had been done with Gates of Discord. The terrible expansion on top of WoW's arrival signaled the end of Everquest as the top dog of the genre. It's really a shame, too - because WoW would ultimately commit the same form of suicide with their Cataclysm expansion.

[@grandoccultist9887]

Preface - GoD is my fav expac in EQ ....when it first came out i hated it so much, i was pretty casual, no proper guild, the flagging etc was so hard to get done, mobs hit too hard etc. After going back and hitting it on TLPs is by far my fav. It's brilliant.

[@grandoccultist9887]

PS Love your videos!

[@Redbeardflynn]

I think when it was finally properly tuned (by the time you'd play it on TLPs) it was a great mix of challenge and reward. The zones were interesting, the creatures were really cool, the lore was exciting. Plus...you get the best freaking class: The berserker.

[@Redbeardflynn]

@@grandoccultist9887 Oh! That's so nice of you to say. Thank you so much!

[@ambientdiscord]

I played on a PvP server and i know some people didnt like planes of power but i did find it fun, probably because that was when i actually started to progress with the content. Plane of Knowledge and tranquility turned off pvp which is why some people hated it but i found it OK because you could be off guard for once. Before that you could be sitting at your own home city and technically people could come in with invis and attack you. I remember times during Velious where i could actually hear the hard drive on my computer click in a certain way to alert me to check the /who list for the zone because i was able to hear the sound when someone zoned in. It was pretty much a situation where you could not really be safe anywhere. PoK/T took away some of this but this was still OK because Vallon Zek had player enforced PvP rules. Servers were small enough that you were able to know who people were or the guild of the person. The reason PoK was not that bad was because the only content in that zone was for banking etc... The players mostly followed "loot and scoot" which included running to a safe zone. If you died in PvP or escaped to a safe zone then you had to leave for at least 1 hour. The flip side was that the killers always had to allow the losers to come into the zone and get their gear. The winners would also often rez the losers in if the PvP happened deep in a zone. All of the major guilds on the server agreed to this and as a consequence all of the casual guilds also agreed. All of that is just to say the safe zones in PoP weren't bad because all of the content happened in real zones. LDoN on the other hand absolutely ruined the servers as far as PvP interactions went. There was a minor item browsing interaction at a public camp followed by the group running into the instance. If i remember correctly, the way it worked is you only needed 1 person to queue the instance at the camp. Often a group would send out a bard to the camp to create the instance while the rest of the group sat in the instance. Then when the bard got to the camp the rest of the group would zone out and then get the new instance and zone back in. This wasnt even specifically to hide from PvP but it made sense because people would want to recover mana and go use the bathroom etc... so the min max outcome was to send a bard over to the camp. In terms of interactions, zones were now DEAD because people were just off in their own universe. After that, i agree that GoD and OoW killed the vibe of EQ for me. In terms of the RPG aspect, what are you supposed to do after killing the gods? fighting weird mutants that hit harder than the gods i guess... WoW was coming out as well so i ended up just moving on because my guild was moving over.

[@voir-dire]

I remember GoD releasing and it really did kill the game for many players like myself. I was part of a casual but very large guild on the Ayonae Ro server that went from doing very well in LoY and LDoN to being completely demolished in GoD. Many of us realized that we would have to grind like we never had before to be in a position to do well like we had in the past, and many of us knew the time value and fun just wouldnt be there anymore. It's pretty disheartening to have a really great time September in 2003 then literally less than 5 months later having a terrible time in the game. I've been wanting to run through the content again solo just to see what I missed.

[@apointtomake1517]

GoD was tuned for the top 1% guilds. I do believe the end boss was only defeated by one guild until the next expansion. The BiC aug, only a certain handful of people from the guild were allowed to attempt. Those pieces did not rain down on you once you defeated a raid boss. Guilds that were not the top 1% struggled due to the insane flagging you had to do on a group level, where dungeon runs could take hours, and if you were not Time geared with a couple of elemental items, you stood no chance to those curb stomping mobs and encounters. They openly admitted it was too hard and vowed to learn from the mistake, but a few expansion later they did the same thing with Underfoot.

[@TheSentry66]

Great video, brings back fond and not so fond memories! What expo was SSRA? I remember our guild moving in there and me (probably more than the others) getting WTF’d squashed on pulls by those damn serpents! Hahah was the best of times and the worst of times! 😺👍

[@Redbeardflynn]

Hahah! Ooooh Ssra. I loved that zone despite it being kind of a maze. Ssra was Shadows of Luclin, the third Everquest expansion. I can relate to getting WTF squashed by lots of things throughout my tenure in EQ across multiple expansions.

[@TheSentry66]

@@Redbeardflynn haha oh geeze, one minute your toon i fine the next your camera angle is facing their corpse! LOL 👍👍

[@Redbeardflynn]

@@TheSentry66 It kinda surprised me, too lol. I was lvl 92 or 98 recording that footage!

[@TheSentry66]

@@Redbeardflynn Haha EQ can be HARSH! Love the videos, man, keep up the great work! 👍

[@Redbeardflynn]

@@TheSentry66 thank you so much!

[@danpitzer765]

I still wish LDON scaled correctly so it could be done at whatever levels you manage to find people willing to do it. I liked LDON stuff.

[@judgeparker2767]

I enjoyed LDONS back in the day now not so much. You need so many points gear a caster that it will never happen on a server.The one reason I refuse do them. Had they made any dungeon points to be spend on caster gear it would have made life easier. The fact your forced do certain zones ruined the point system

[@danpitzer765]

@@judgeparker2767 Or considering powercreep, just remove the minimum group size. One char in defiant with a merc can probably clear most of them now.

[@Redbeardflynn]

Yeah I think they ended up just replacing that with Heroic Adventures which were actually pretty great but there's a big gap between them and I believe even Heroic Adventures have been abandoned now.

[@Redbeardflynn]

@Dan Pitzer True story....I tried to record some footage of Ldons for this video and got frustrated by the inability to open them up solo I went with extra GoD footage 😱

[@Feracitus]

Planes of Time wasnt instanced back when it came out.

[@timothygrediagin7756]

ldon introduced instancing, not PoP PoP had a bottleneck issue where lots of guilds wanted to do PoTime at about the time that ldon came out. the developers decided to expand instances to plane of time. I raided time without instancing, and I raided it with instancing. without instancing it really was too easy for someone to spoil time for everyone by entering timeb, it would effectively make it so you couldn't raid time for something like 12 hours. enough time that if another guild were also time flagged we could have really messed with each other.

[@Redbeardflynn]

Wow, really? I had no idea Time wasn't always instanced once upon a time. I've always known it to be instanced. Thank you for this!

[@Remianen]

@@Redbeardflynn Euro guilds on US servers were notorious for "flipping" Time (to their timezone) with this method, in my experience. Instancing did away with that practice.

[@ryaj2356]

Discord was rough but that’s how gearing is done with lock outs

[@Rage-_-Quit]

I liked god raiding but the grouping aspect of grinding exp while holding a camp and chilling was just missing, it was just too unpleasant. I didn't know anyone that would go there for grouping lol

[@Redbeardflynn]

Oh yeah even on progression servers I don't think we exp'd in GoD lol.

[@HammerJammer81]

PoP was and always be my Fave expansion. I loved everything about it.

[@Redbeardflynn]

This is awesome to hear!!

[@Weonlyknewoneway]

Gates of discord flagging was really hard for many to achieve while it was live.

[@Redbeardflynn]

That whole expansion was so tough when it launched. Hell, it's tough now, perhaps not the toughest in progression but still tough!

[@Weonlyknewoneway]

Was really hard for people to get geared enough and have enough aa's, and Augs to beat each part

[@Vintruce1]

Cant sleep, must complete the BIC D:

[@Scott-bu5cq]

EQ had years of non-instanced content with contention between powerful guilds for access to dragons, planes, and other raid targets. Anyone not in one of these handful of guilds had no access to the best equipment. The guilds themselves would aggressively track their players, sometimes calling them up in the middle of the night to deal with a raid target spawning. This naturally separated players into casual and hard core groups, with the hard core players being far more effective - at the cost of enormous disruption to their lives. TLPs thankfully do NOT have this issue. Agents of Change allow access to raid targets on a set schedule, so the lines are far more blurry now between players. When first released, Gates of Discord was brutal on casual players. The hard-core raiding crowd had much better equipment, and could hold up far better in the blast furnace melees. On TLPs, player gear is also much better than what the majority of players experienced. LDoN was much friendlier to casual players, but also very repetitive. Both expansions share a common issue - with rare exceptions, the zones are mostly eyesores. The chalky colors and grainy textures really make the novelty of exploring the new worlds feel dull. New creature models are nice, but there still was not enough variety. Later expansions turned this around. Dragons of Norrath was a breath of fresh air, and most expansions since have been far better than these two. Breakdown in Communication has a marvelous reward, but you're absolutely right to point out that it takes a guild's coordination to get even one of these maxed out. Something of note about this augmentation is that allows it to be popped into a shield for added AC in an unusual augmentation slot. Shield AC ignores the mitigation soft cap, so tanks prize it.

[@Redbeardflynn]

Fantastic comment, you outlined the two expansions very well! Thank you! I think agents of change was one of the best changes made to everquest in recent memory because while it removed some of the player to player competition it still allowed players to race to complete those raids faster than other guilds while letting people raid on a schedule instead of sitting and waiting on spawn windows for hours.

[@Feracitus]

still waiting for a BiC 2.0, so i can justify all the work i had back in the day xD

[@darkwulf2k]

Loved LDoN content, could not run it enough. GoD kinda killed EQ for me. Got my tipt key, and bracer for my ranger, but never the other key needed to progress.

[@Redbeardflynn]

Keying through Everquest can be very tiresome at times, especially if you're not in a guild that can properly assist. I'm glad you enjoyed LDoN, though! I did when I went through it on progression but when it first launched I remember being so confused in the miragul's maps...all the ice looked the same.

[@gtsrvenom1]

i appreciate Gates content now at the time i was pretty shocked by power mobs melee procs and sow speed mobs that flee are very nasty in gates. I didnt stop playing the game. I liked most the content from Oow DON and depths of dark hallow expansions a lot personally. the 80/20 raid flag that came around then made a massive difference on being able to get new guild members back flagged my guild was able turn out enough for a raid every time after that, there would often be times where we would be too short on tanks or other critical class before that

[@Redbeardflynn]

I ended up enjoying Gates a lot when I got to play it on progression but by that point I think it had been more properly tuned. I remember underfoot feeling more over-tuned. Right on about the 80/20 raid flag rule. That made a huge difference.

[@Hazardus320]

Having finished the BiC quest... I must say I actually enjoyed the Gates of Discord expansion

[@Redbeardflynn]

Well done! Impressive feat.

[@Hazardus320]

@@Redbeardflynn I was in a great guild at the time. Without them it would not have happened. Shout out to Crimson Tempest!

[@dbb1064]

There was so much competition at the time, my guild broke apart in God due to bugs in Uqua and other games.

[@Redbeardflynn]

Oof! Uqua was hard even without bugs...it and Underfoot were the big tests for my progression guild.

[@Droxen222]

Luclin killed it for me...Loved the beastlord lord class though lol. I just hated the Auction House. The EC tunnel immersion was gone...I know a lot of people hated it but it did force you to interact/barter etc. There was a sense of a community. So i just view EQ's true lifespan to be classic through Velious. Thankfully we have Eq1999

[@Redbeardflynn]

I love that p99 exists for everyone who wants to to relive that version of eq right down to the spell effects and icons! I actually remember liking the original bazaar when the zone was an actual Bazaar with stalls and there wasn't offline trading or a window you just went from person to person. I know why they added a the quality of life changed to the bazaar but it was still a cool concept back in the day.

[@johnmorris8444]

The EC tunnel was like Toys R Us and the bazaar is amazon. More convenient but I miss going to the store. Something weird, I played on Drinal from late 2000 til 2003ish and we never did EC tunnels. Our server used North Freeport. Evils in the sewer or if they did faction, would sit out In the open.

[@WesleyWyndam-Pryce]

Different strokes... worst part of P99 for me is non instanced raids and the annoyance of TunnelQuest.

[@bobbun9630]

LDoN was a great group expansion. I got more pick-up groups in that era than at any time before or after, I think. It was pretty weak on raids, though, in that few were interested in the raid content. Most didn't see a compelling reason to pursue it over high end PoP content. I liked Gates for the most part, but I do think it was a problem that the content, especially the early content, was too difficult. Shortly after it came out, I started working on KT flagging, and it was brutal. Not many did the sewers once their guild started raiding the Ikkinz boss that substituted for them, but my group did and it was pretty rough. Nothing like Vxed and Tipt, though. Those zones effectively made KT flagging a raid guild a major chore, and effectively made a lot of the more interesting content in the expansion inaccessible to more casual players. I think the difficulty of GoD really hurt the game because it gave more casual players even more reason to head off to WoW, hastening the depopulation of the game. My favorite farm targets in GoD were the group instances in Ikkinz. Ikkinz 1, in particular, had a mob right inside the door that could drop a Plane of Time quality ring for a group with just a few minutes of effort. If you were flagged for KT, of course.

[@kiztent]

I quit a little after GoD dropped and swore to never give Sony money again. Back in PoP, the hybrid healers and tanks actually were able to compete with the warriors and clerics and there was a ton of drama over that. When GoD came out and totally reversed that, once again locking "everyone" into trinity groups, I took that as SOE giving the finger to all of their non-trinity customers "sorry, you can't participate in progression... ever."

[@HectorYague]

Instancing drains the life out of a MMO, making the LDoN dungeon crawling experience dull. When you exp'ed in Guk or Sebilis, the world felt alive as you were surrounded by real people who needed help recovering a corpse or breaking a camp, or created a train, or simply messed around in /shout channel. In comparison, a LDoN run felt "sterelized" instead.

[@dirty46]

GoD is my favorite raiding expansion. I love that expansion.

[@connorleggett9483]

I agree with what you said but I think the one thing your missing is that with these expansions you stopped being able to solo if you weren’t very selective classes you needed a group and by then everyone was in their own cliques and have their friends there were no pickup groups really it’s the same thing that happens on tlps so now people have no group game and maybe only raid game if they can some how level to go to raid I went through it on multiple servers you’d kinda take a break or two and it’s like everyone forgot you and now no group so no aa no missions no xp no nothing it makes the game not fun so I get why people quit here but I still will always defend gates of discord no matter what

[@Redbeardflynn]

That is a great point! I always think of the initial death of soloing being when they added summoning mobs (they later back track on this) I think you're onto something that's an even bigger issue with Everquest as it is, it's often pretty sectioned off and I believe that's why you see so many people trying to box. Progression servers go through cycles where you can get a group whenever to either needing to be in an active guild or just having to solo everything and EQ is still a group-focused game. Thank you so much for your comment and insight!

[@connorleggett9483]

@@Redbeardflynn I think the newest expansions highlight this very well you can’t do anything unless you really have a full group it took me months before my SK could even do anything in cov and tov without burning everything on trash mobs

[@Redbeardflynn]

@@connorleggett9483 the last couple expansions they've leaned heavily into it, yeah. I think the last one I remember having relevant things you could do solo was perhaps broken mirror?

[@connorleggett9483]

@@Redbeardflynn it was something like that but it’s been a while and really it’s felt like unless you raid and have some of the better gear your not gonna be able to solo like at all unless it was very underlevel and wouldn’t give you anything at all would take like a week to get one aa

[@deathknizzle]

I’m 90% sure that the ldon adventure stone only gives stats while inside of ldon instances, then goes back to 0 stats in the rest of the game

[@Redbeardflynn]

I believe thats how it originally worked but in the current game and on progression servers it's always on.

[@deathknizzle]

@@Redbeardflynn i am actively playing a character with adventure stone on mischief and when I’m not inside of ldon and inspect my charm, it shows 0 stat boosts. Once I zone in, it goes up. I tested removing and putting back on outside, no stat change. Tested inside, stats did change. I am doing ldon tests on mischief to prepare for vaniki. People will be trying to enter at 15 and not understand why they can’t. I know why they can’t. Need 20 on person getting quest, and average 18 or higher for group. So 20, 20, and 15 can do it. 20, 19, and 15 can do it. 20, 18, and 15 can not so it. That may be a good video, explaining these things people get wrong with ldon.

[@Redbeardflynn]

@@deathknizzle this is strange. It shouldn't be how that stone works unless they made a change between Phinny and mischief. Thank you for reporting your findings!

[@deathknizzle]

@@Redbeardflynn if you have a stone please check and confirm i’m either right or stupid!

[@sakisaotome6753]

@@Redbeardflynn no, the bonus were always active! the charm just got powered by playing more ldon missions. despite slotting into a charm slot item it isnt' a charm itself. so the bonuses were always active.

[@jimvick8397]

PoP end game was was total crap when it was first accessed by our guild. The highest zone, Plane of Time was totally broken on even high end PC... it was so terrible, they were using their top end product consumers as their software testers... All they needed to do was simulate a raid with like 35 software testers, zone in, and anyone who didn't crash would have said "Dang, this is total shit". And to think they didn't even bother to do that...

[@Ben-zw8bg]

Does anyone play on Rallos Zek anymore?

[@JON_CORE]

Shadows of luclin is what killed the exp of EverQuest. Once the nexus came in it destroyed travel and there was now a place pvp players could hide and not get attacked.. all the things players hated about shadows of luclin were expanded upon in PoP

[@ShinraEQ]

GoD made the switch to wow easy for me and my guild. It was so broken and overturned initially uqua was impossible at first

[@Redbeardflynn]

That's what I heard. I switched over to Eq2 at the time and the GoD I experienced is properly tuned (on progression) but I heard nightmare stories about launch.

[@ShinraEQ]

@@Redbeardflynn yessir it was really bad. We were the top guild on our server and had been farming PoTime for god knows how long. Couldnt even beat Uqua lol, It was truly the guild crusher. That's what made the lvl 70 tuning seem more than a rumor for us

[@yizudien1696]

My guild was time geared when GOD came out. We had a lot of fun with the hard-hitting mobs. It felt at first like hitting a brick wall, and I understood why people left during the expansion. LDON was super easy compared to GOD

[@AngryParrotDistillery]

Gates of Discord sucked the cold wet farts out of dead seagulls. Couple of bottleneck flagging instances (even for raid geared) relied soley on having a war or ranger tank and to have dps to burn a mob before the defensive timer dropped. Sidelined alot of classes and saw alot of ppl leave. GoDiscord in my experience was a burnout guild killer.

[@ttabood7462]

SoD introduced mercenaries which absolutely killed the spirit of EQ.

[@Remianen]

The spirit of EQ was killing its body, much like a heroin addiction. Mercs were the quick(-er) fix. Rather than fix the issue of no groups available at most level ranges, they applied a band-aid to the situation. Didn't fix it but kicked the can down the road (creating new problems they needed to solve later).

[@antondovydaitis2261]

None of the official updates around Gates of Discord bothered me, but the completely incompetent and arrogant way they handled a series of multiple duplication bugs made me rage quit. After my experience with the developers' response to the duplication bugs, I could not bring myself to spend another dollar contributing to their salaries. I was Razamatazz of Ancient Fellowship, and I miss my Guildmates.

[@Redbeardflynn]

It sounds like I may have left at the right time (I went to eq2) and came back at the right time once the team had changed over many times and GoD had been fixed. Thank you for sharing! I hope you can find some of your guildmatws on here!

[@konzam3]

I just want back to it I stoped playing once wow come out

[@Redbeardflynn]

I actually stopped when WoW came out, too, but went to EQ2 instead (both launched at almost the same time.) I went back to Everquest first in 2006 for progression and it was a lot of fun, but more recently 2016-2020 for Phinigel. Hope you're enjoying yourself!

[@angelicasanchez5531]

Are you on Yelinak?

[@USAnumberONE]

Lost dungeons was my last expansion.

[@Redbeardflynn]

Essentially it was my last on my first playthrough, my original eq journey. I'd then come back go live and of course progression servers multiple times after.

[@bogdanpanek3481]

what killed eq for me was too many expansions, too many zones. people too spread out. you end up with too many zones to get key'd for, too many trials to do or catch up on. too many must have things to quest or farm. at some point would have been nice to delete 1 old zone for every 1 new zone introduced.

[@Barry_Micoqiner]

I quit after Gates of Dischord. Started when Kunark released.

[@NOFOCKYOU]

I think just as was consensus back then LDoN began the downfall of EQ and GoD killed it. I hated LDoN when it came out and didnt find the content particularly fun. LDoN was made as more of a speed run type of dungeon which didn't feel very fun to play in a game where its all about mana conservation. (i was a cleric and raided plane of time prior to Ldon so was geared) So for people who didnt have as much mana regen/aa's/gear I imagine it was much worse for. But GoD was the expansion that did kill the game. As said in the video the damage was ridiculous in GoD but ontop of that, it felt like there were a ton of bugs including during raids. Due to all these issues that GoD had and lack of fun of LDoN alot of people quit the game including my guild who was top raid guild for our server. Also the fact that EQ2 was coming out later that year and WoW alot of people just ditched EQ for those instead of hoping there would be a fix. I ended up quitting during GoD aswell due to my guild falling apart but I probably would have kept playing if that didn't happen.

[@siralleycat9141]

GoD introduced bard speed mobs that see invis, have nasty dots, snares, and took an enchanter pet with two healers to kill. In addition, they nerfed the plat drops, and added tons of useless, worthless items from trash mob drops. Not only that, but the quests were even harder than PoP to follow, as you needed a raid to even get to the quest mob. In short, I hated that expansion.

[@CIkler]

Ldon made small groups fun again. The flagging with GOD made raiding absolutely necessary or you couldn’t progress

[@WhyYouAskingMe]

Instances, pick zone, random dungeon finder, raid finder, and microtransactions all destroy the immersion and kill MMOs.

[@Redbeardflynn]

Most of those come out as more of a "game" element imo then a world element. I go back and forth on their necessity because they can often speed up the ability to play with others or to find a spot (pick zones) but you're right, it takes you out of the world (quite literally with instances) You gain something by having more options to play with people but also lose that immersion so it's definitely a trade off. Thank you so much for watching and for your comment!

[@WhyYouAskingMe]

@@Redbeardflynn No problem. My take on it is that you play a massively multiplayer game to play with a massive amount of people in a persistent online world. Pick zones, instances, etc. Destroy both the persistence and the massive amount of people.

[@CAiNiAC]

@@WhyYouAskingMe pick zones are a bit of a necessity in current times on TLP's otherwise they would be unplayable. When there's 4 picks of lower guk open with 40 people inside each that actually positively affects people's play experience rather than negatively. Much smoother experience than being forced out of a zone due to overcrowding and camps on lockdown by the same groups for days at a time.

[@Unchainedfury]

@@CAiNiAC It also kills the game quicker. There's no longevity to it. Nothing is treasured or worthwhile because no one values it due to it's ease. It's a short sighted goal and ultimately spells doom... which it did.

[@CAiNiAC]

@@Unchainedfury I'd agree with you if we were talking about an MMO during it's time and on a standard release schedule. The nature of TLPs are to be fast paced and allow older folks who can't or don't want to live in a game anymore still find enjoyment and an experience that recalls nostalgia and the good memories of yesteryear that you can pick up and play when it suits you. Yes, for an MMO in it's prime that isn't releasing an expansion every 2-3 months pick zones/instances are detrimental to the old school experience and progression. Frankly, and unfortunately, the audience for that that kind of experience is dwindling myself included.

[@herogibson]

I always chuckle when people call ldon an expansion. It technically was i guess, but i mean… there wasnt a whole lot of expansion lol

[@Redbeardflynn]

I remember feeling that way when it first launched and it's still kind of light compared to the expansions that preceded it but still feels more substantial than say, Ykesha.

[@konasavage]

Liked LDoN, left the game for CoH a bit later

[@joshcantrell8397]

Why do you say mana like that?

[@Redbeardflynn]

It's just how I've always said it 😅

[@toonarmy8524]

Everquest died from luclin onward, making porting classes pointless even necros for corpse summoning then the bazaar. No one in the tunnel no socialising anymore. Thats why p1999 is so good.

[@siler7]

Set playback speed to 1.25.

[@bobozwald3234]

Will always be the most beautiful game to ever exist.

[@bluethunder7391]

Gates of Discord: The worst expansion of this game, made alot of people quit, including me for a long time. I came back on the next expansion. Omens of war.

[@Redbeardflynn]

I missed most of the bad of GoD because I was over on EQ2/World of Warcraft so I got to experience it after all the tweaking with being over geared it was fine. OoW was much more fun though but that could also be because you got Epic 2.0s which was just great.

[@bluethunder7391]

@@Redbeardflynn Ohh man Gates npcs really kicked our behind so bad, wipe after wipe on group missions. Terrible , felt like a job, very streesful for a tank, not fun at all. Like I said i rage quit until the next one.

[@Staysa001]

gates killed the game for alot of players because there was nothing for casuals to do there. You could only enjoy pop zones for so long and ldon was extremely reptitive so that didn't have much shelf life, now add on to this an entire expansion of no content for the casual player-base.

[@karndorbad6536]

no luclin killed it, beacuse project 1999 is thriving with expansions up to velious just fine.

[@Riiyan]

I had more grouping in POP, LDON and GOD then any other expansion. This all stems from 1 ideological concept, and a human condition. First the condition that was created was complete awestruck from an experience you never experienced before which created the ideology that X makes everquest, everquest. Everquest didn't kill everquest, people realizing that they won't return to this weird Ideology they made up that is only partially true killed everquest. I mean people argue that luclin isn't classic, when in fact it was the last expansion that was made by the original dev team, which makes it classic. The analyses over what happen to Everquest from a majority of the community is just so completely wrong. Everquest didn't do anything to change the game and push people away, peoples rotten attitudes about this weird ideology is what caused the game to go down hill, it was the same game at that point and me taking my group into an instances doesn't harm you in anyway, it helps you with having access to more camps.

[@nulltheworm]

What is "classic" isn't defined by the dev team. It's defined by larger design, story, and gameplay differences. That's why almost everyone considers "classic EverQuest" to have ended with Scars of Velious. Shadows of Luclin changed the graphics, put you into space, had cats fighting aliens in underground caverns on the moon, etc. The game became substantially different than the previous expansions. That could have happened with every developer staying the same, or every developer leaving.

[@marloncebo242]

Better games came out while SOE acted arrogant and ignored fans and didn't fix bugs. Plus having a bunch of mobs in luclin and GoD, Omens with random names and nothing to relate to didn't help.

[@robn2171]

No. Lucilin killed the spirit of EverQuest.

[@Redbeardflynn]

With the travel and/or the bazaar?

[@dylanpaul7371]

Multiboxing killed the spirit of everquest

[@Redbeardflynn]

That's a fair assessment because it made socializing less important which was key to eq as it was. I think it became a vicious cycle where boxing sent people away making boxing more necessary as the population shrunk.

[@dylanpaul7371]

@@Redbeardflynn There is also something significant about controlling one and only one character while everyone else is doing the same. It really is more immersive and seems to be obvious in that it's what the developers intended.

[@Redbeardflynn]

@@dylanpaul7371 absolutely! The connection to a single character is always going yo be stronger and lead to greater immersion, imo.

[@JoeyMetcalf80]

Multiboxing was a symptom, not the actual problem. Boxing was always there from the early days, however the need to box was very low due to healthy population. When the great exodus happened is where is became so prevalent.

[@beauthestdane]

I'm sorry, but talking about an expansion that released how many years ago, and whether or not it broke everquest? This has been discussed to death already.

[@Redbeardflynn]

Thank you so much for watching! The video was designed in a way to help people who may be going through progression now. The current crop of progression servers will be entering this expansion this month and are currently in ldon.

[@beauthestdane]

@@Redbeardflynn Ah, I don't pay attention to those servers anymore, just get annoyed that DBG keeps insisting on telling me when they unlock expansions despite me not playing on them.

[@Redbeardflynn]

@@beauthestdane that's a bit of an intrusive marketing tactic on their part. I agree! Should be server specific not global. Fv doesn't care if pop unlocks on phinny

[@Redbeardflynn]

@@beauthestdane Absolutely a bit of a heavy handed marketing tactic on there part. Something they'd be better served by keeping server specific as to not spam people with "did you know there are progression servers?" and I say that as someone who adores them. People on FV don't care that Mangler is opening up House of Thule! People on Mangler care!

[@charlesmartel3995]

Who made you the EQ discussion police?