Reference Recordings: The 5 Beethoven Piano Concertos

Beethoven: Piano Concertos Nos. 1-5. Leon Fleisher (piano), Cleveland Orchestra, George Szell (cond.) Sony

[@djquinn4212]

The problem for me with Barenboim/Klemperer is that the first two concertos are just too serious. There's no fun, no humor, it's almost joyless and the sycnopation in the last movement of the 2nd concerto is just dead on arrival. The third from that cycle is one of the best ones I've ever heard, it absolutely nails the oomph that the C minor concerto needs. That's the underrated thing about Szell. He had the humor and the fun when he wanted to let it out, otherwise he NEVER would've been the great Haydn/Mozart conductor that he was. And the first two concertos in this set capture that fun when it needs to happen. Can't wait for the next reference recording video! THanks Dave!

[@jonaseriksson456]

If you had thrown in the two Brahms, the Schumann, and the Grieg, this could have been a one stop shop Fleisher-Szell reference video.

[@hendriphile]

Everyone loves these Reference Recording videos. Perhaps there ought to be a disclaimer at the beginning of each: ‘Reference’ recordings are those that have been REFERRED to by a consensus of the critical community over time for purposes of comparison; they are not synonymous with ‘The best’ or ‘My favorite’ recordings. “

[@clarkebustard8672]

Fleisher was a pupil of Artur Schnabel, which at the time was a gold-standard imprimatur for a Beethoven pianist - and still not a so-what? consideration. Add that to Szell's authority in German repertory and standard of performance, and it's no surprise that this set would be an internationally recognized reference.

[@hilde45]

It's so helpful of you to remind us of the use of the "reference" standard. Whatever someone wants to argue about the "best" or "worst" recording (with whatever evidence they gather), they still have to recognize that their arguments are taking place in a context. The "reference standard" is a useful denominator of that context. As I'm trying to learn more about the vast range of classical music, these videos are helping me "level set" and then explore around the reference. So -- thanks!

[@richardhuggett8249]

Hello Dave, new subscriber here, just wanted to say I found you about three weeks ago and have been loving your videos so much. Your infectious enthusiasm and obvious love for the subject matter has made the last three weeks a joy. I come home from work, grab another CD out of my collection and see if you've mentioned it in a video (most of the time you have), it's been a lot of fun. HOWEVER, you're going to cost me a lot of money adding to my modest collection. (Looking forward to it actually😀) Thanks again for all you do.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thank YOU, and welcome. I hope you have a lot of fun!

[@Warp75]

I got into the Uchida/Sanderling recordings because of you.

[@ferrisburgh802]

Got this and absolutely great. Originally had #5 on records. I've heard others, Pollini which is my second favorite but I always come back to the Szell set. Szell was a wonderful conductor. His Schubert 9th and Dvorak New World Symphony are both great.

[@NikoHL]

Thank you for flagging up Fleisher/Szell Beethoven Piano concerto cycle. Listening as I write..beautiful. I'm a newbie to "classical" and have yet to discover so many artists. Currently enjoying Yeol Eum Son & Yunchan Lim performances of Beethoven and Rachmaninov. I use your channel as my reference point. Keep up the great content.

[@abrain]

I feel fortunate to have experienced Fleisher live several times including both Brahms ctos and also Schubert D. 960,

[@bernardfield7346]

You are such a great guy. I learn so much from you. Thanks a million.

[@saltcots8985]

I think this set as a “reference” recording will have come as much of a surprise to many of us in Europe.

[@LeotheK]

Thanks for another interesting video. You have now introduced me to Szell, whom I heard many times throughout the years but didn't really appreciate these recordings. Now I am listening with mature ears and realize I have been missing out. The Szell Complete box, which I now have, is absolutely amazing. Thanks!

[@chrismoule7242]

My parents had the Kempff. I have Bishop-Kovacevich & Davis.

[@tom6693]

Couldn't agree more that, with time, a reference recording for the Beethoven piano concertos may well emerge from among the more contemporary versions released in the last few years. To the ones you name--all of which are extraordinary performances--I'd only add my candidate, the 2023 set w/ Garrick Ohlsson and Donald Runnicles. Beautifully shaped, with all of Ohlsson's characteristic command and poetry--it's the most musically satisfying experience of these works I've had in a long, long time.

[@culturalconfederacy]

Leon Fleisher doesn't get enough credit. I heard his rendition of Brahms' Variations on a Theme by Handel. And wow, what a powerful performance in the final fugue. This coming from someone who's not a fan of solo piano music.

[@jbbevan]

I had the recording in its first CD release back in the early '80's. It did and does have a reputation like no other and deserves "reference" classification. Fleisher was a student of Scannable (one of only few) and thus can trace his musical genealogy directly back to Beethoven. But that first CD incarnation was so horrible in sound that I actually returned it. On the strength of Dave's discussion I have re-acquired the most recent remastering and am pleased to report that the sound is now in the 21st century. It is a marvelous reference and deserves the consensus it has built since first released on LP in days of yore.

[@diegogonzalez244]

I love the suggestion that Barenboim and Klemperer are a ‘little’ eccentric.

[@user-pv5ur8lm1i]

Dave I found this video very interesting and self-explanatory. It was wise to get ahead of people asking (expectably) why Szell keeps coming back time and again, so I think we all appreciate your explaining why in this case. Fleisher was a terrific pianist, and he deserves more credit than he's got for his recordings. I'm checking out that Beethoven cycle asap. I have one on Decca featuring Friedrich Gulda with the WPO, which I think is quite good. I guess you have listened to it.

[@ztoga-ze3tt]

These all are in the big Szell box

[@chrissicaras7339]

Fleisher was a great pianist both in terms of technique and musicianship. If not for his physical problems he would be recognized as one of the greatest pianists of the 20th century.

[@thejils1669]

Dear Dave: For once, in a nutshell, you explained why George Szell's name is mentioned so often on these classical music boards (something I've not been able to articulate when I try to explain to people why I'm so enamored with George Szell): NOBODY DID IT BETTER! Case closed...

[@curseofmillhaven1057]

Absolutely agree about this set setting a standard. I think though the Uchida/Sanderling traversal, if it had had a larger promotional push, could have been a new reference contender? But we're not talking maybe here are we!

[@KareemPilot]

Still my favorite cycle … it’s just magical and emblazoned in my brain … these two were an ideal match

[@davidaiken1061]

No argument here. When it comes to "cycles"--whether of concertos, symphonies, string quartets, whatever--there is usually at least one "weak link." The Fleisher/Szell Beethoven cycle is a notable exception. As close to perfection in every work as is humanly possible. When it comes to Mozart's piano concertos, on the other hand, the reference set, if one exists, will have a few performances that fall below the very high average, given the quantity of works. Another consideration when it comes to Mozart concerto cycles is that the majority feature the pianist as both soloist and conductor (a mistake, in my estimation). That haveing been said, I think the likelist candidate for a reference Mozart concerto cycle would probably be Perahia/ECO. And that one's an example of a reference recording not from the first two decades of the LP.

[@CortJohnson]

Ashkenazy???

[@yiyuanxie7887]

Wonderful video, thanks, Dave! Can you talk about the reason why Claudio Arrau didn't rise to this list yet, despite his greatness? When you talked about sonata cycles my automatic choice was Arrau's, and you said it's your favorite, too. It was recorded roughly the same time as the Kempff's stereo cycle, just like Arrau's Haitink concerto cycle is made around the time when this Fleisher - Szell cycle came out - and then you said your favorite is also Arrau's! These just make me wonder if there is anything special that stop Arrau from being a reference cycle. Heaps of thanks in advance!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No, nothing special. I wish he turned up more often!

[@ollierdevon]

Thank you. I have been meaning to ask your opinion of the Harmonia Mundi set of , Jiri Belohlavek, BBC Symphony Orchestra, Paul Lewis. I found it very exciting and wondered if you had heard it. Good sonics too, in my humble opinion.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

www.classicstoday.com/review/big-boxes-paul-lewis-beethoven-cycles-at-super-budget-price/?search=1

[@OuterGalaxyLounge]

A perfect set at the nice low price.

[@antoniocristodoro475]

Ottima scelta, Dave! Stai fornendo un servizio eccellente con i tuoi video. Un ciclo tra i tanti che consiglierei è anche quello di Leif Ove Andsnes

[@Taosravenfan]

He’s a guy that I rarely hear discussed, but really enjoy. His Rach 3 is wonderful.

[@soyyoroaldo]

Hi just want to quick say (hope I’m not offending guidelines 😊) that I recently stumbled on your channel here and it is just what the doctor ordered! I really enjoy it and I plan on spending many hours listening to your choices and engaging with your opinions. The classical music hot stove league!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thank you. Stumbling is good sometimes! Welcome and have fun.

[@benhillman1122]

The Kempff/Leitner recordings are sublime - they were my first recordings and they got me into listening + collecting. They've also ruined almost all other recordings for me, but I will give some of these a try. Oddly, I've never loved Kempff's sonatas nearly as much.

[@Ingrampix]

Wonderful - everyone concerned conveys love for the music they are playing, right from the opening bars of the C major. Too many Beethoven concerto performances sound dutiful or like a fight. The kind of set that could kindle a love for Classical music, let alone Beethoven.

[@stevieb6368]

My first exposure to George Szell, as a much younger version of myself, was his Decca recording of Tchaikovsky 4th Symphony with the LSO which knocked me for six. He always was a stunning conductor and I'm faced with one question now and that is, already owning many recordings of Beethoven's Piano Concertos, do I need another one? 🤔

[@tomfinot623]

The Serkin from around the same time is close rival, but I think the fact that there were two different orchestras and conductors somehow diminishes it in some peoples mind.

[@MattSmith-il4tc]

I also thought that Serkin was going to be his choice for reference.

[@danielo.masson353]

Forgive me if I am getting a little sentimental and off-topic but as the news of Maurizio Pollini's demise came and since you suggested you could also discuss different references by concerto, may I suggest Pollini in the 4th with Böhm, some kind of revelation in terms of light and balance ? I also revere the achievements of Arrau/Davis with the Dresden Staatskapelle as an artistic whole in all five concertos.

[@asheko]

Dear Mr.Hurwitz ! What do you think about the Gilels/Szell cycle ?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Fleischer is better, but it'd very good. Remember, it came quite a bit later.

[@RaineriHakkarainen]

The Hard truth is Gilels Ashkenazy Radu Lupu Kempff More colorful beautiful piano sound for Beethoven than Fleischer!

[@RaineriHakkarainen]

Hurwitz loves the second-, rated Pianists like Tamas Vasary Zimerman Uchida Serkin Berezhovsky Bronfman Peter Donohoe and so on! Hurwitz hates the Best like Sviatoslav Richter Emil Gilels Radu Lupu ABM Cliburn Grigory Sokolov Maria Grinberg Pollini and so on!!

[@jameslee2943]

If you're going to compare with Kempff, shouldn't it be his first (better?) DG cycle with Van Kempen? Or are we talking about stereo recordings only?

[@paulbrower]

He chose Casals' performances of Bach's cello suites from the 1930's. It is noteworthy that he rejects most digital recordings even though some of them have been in circulation for forty years.

[@javierbezos8945]

In this series, before seeing what the reference recording is, I try to guess what it’s. I usually get it right, but here I couldn't have been more wrong. I thought it was going to be Kempff/Leitner, and it turns out they are my favorite versions!

[@petterw5318]

Not that I disagree, but I thought you would say one of the Rubinsteins (with Krips or Leinsdorf).

[@DavidJohnson-of3vh]

I've heard that set, but don't have it. I own Klem/Barenboim and Backhaus/Schmidt-Isserstedt.

[@peacearchwa5103]

Methinks Szell had an excellent musical rapport with the youthful Fleisher. These are performances for the ages. IMHO for a different take on the Beethoven concertos from the same time era -- taped in Living Stereo in 1956 -- is the Arthur Rubinstein cycle with Josef Krips. There's a sparkle, wit, joy, spontaneity and poetry which I find endearing. Alas, good as the Symphony of the Air was in 1956, it's not The Cleveland Orchestra under Szell.

[@aquariantrader]

Curious as to what your opinion is of the Ashkenazy/Solti cycle on Decca with the Chicago done in 1972. In my musical circle these were and continue to be the reference recordings. By the mid/late 1970s little was said about the Fleisher/Szell. Szell had passed and Fleisher was no longer concertizing for the reason you noted. The Ashkenazy/Solti cycle is outstanding as you had a conductor who also was a world class pianist - which according to rumors lead to quite "heated discussions" between the two. In this case, it is not that I prefer Ashkenazy/Solti to any other cycle - it is that Ashkenazy/Solti had replaced the Fleisher/Szell due to the passage of time, the prominence of the artists involved, and all of the other reasons for what makes a reference recording. I can only relate that when we were discussing these works between ourselves and our teachers - we were referencing Ashkenazy/Solti.

[@RaineriHakkarainen]

Ashkenazy Kempff Emil Gilels Radu Lupu More colorful piano sound and structure for Beethoven than Fleischer! Pollini was More Genius than Fleischer! Richter his Beethoven no 3 More Genius Than Fleischer! Ashkenazy volcano colorful piano sound for Beethoven concertos!!

[@RichardGreen422]

Not my favorite (which would be Serkin/Kubelik), but wonderful, and absolutely the reference based on your sensible definition.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Serkin/Kubelik was a recent (comparatively) release, even though the performances aren't.

[@matthewrippingsby5384]

Szell needs no apology. The man was a force of nature!

[@robhaynes4410]

Any idea why Szell didn't record Walton 1?

[@brianwilliams9408]

I was raised on the Brendel Vox recordings. I feel they are still excellent. Much better than any of his remakes. In my opinion anyway. I definitely love Fleisher and Szell though!

[@fredericmorris2931]

Still hoping for Mozart piano concerto cycle, late ones analogous to the symphonies, if such a thing exists.

[@vdtv]

This is probably a case where the reference recording was simply not the same on both sides of the Alantic. That's not me being nationalist (I'm not, I hope), bt I have followed the European press quite a bit from the late 70s to the late 90s and can't remember this one ever having had a mention. Not just as a reference recording, but at all. I think it was more Ashkenazy/Solti here (which, btw wasn't really for me for reasons I've never been able to really pinpoint).

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I understand, and you do have a point, but I didn't just read the European press--I spoke to them, and I think I'm on pretty firm ground here. But you're right--the Ashkenazy/Solti got a lot of mention, but then, so did Brendel's cycle of the week.

[@garethwilliams976]

Still Kempf and Leitner for me! Why? Because they are the combination of a master Beethoven pianist doing it his way - not the conductor's. Leitner is the decent and competent conductor who eschews the limelight and the orchestra are fine but when performed by B he would have been in charge and it would have been performed his way not the conductor's. it is not a joint effort. The pianist decides!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Well, that's one way of looking at it, except that it's arguably not a correct description of the 4th and 5th concertos, especially the latter, where Beethoven specifically forbids the soloist from making a cadenza in the first movement.

[@richardkavesh8299]

No argument with me on this one and no argument against Dave for being a jingoistic American in terms of his "reference" selections. After all, Dave designated Herbie's meretricious 1963 set of the Beethoven Nine as a reference recording when none of the nine are even the best as individual releases. Herbie's 5th is the best of the bunch, and even at that, there are many, many other better ones. And I DO know the difference between a "reference" recording, the "best" recording, and my favorite recording.

[@mr-wx3lv]

Good for you David. George Szell was a brilliant conductor... keep it up 👍

[@williamwalton2359]

Have you heard the piano concerto by Norbert Burgmuller.....? He drowned when he was in his twenties...in my humble opinion he would have become another Beethoven or Schubert had he lived....which brings me to my request....the ten most underperformed piano concertos

[@williamwalton2359]

Also I would like to hear your opinion of Frank Bridge ....a most interesting composer

[@bbailey7818]

No argument about this one. Szell's cycle with Gilels isn't nearly as successful, IMO. Fleischer was a Schnabel pupil, seems to have inherited the master's insights but had better digits and control.

[@RaineriHakkarainen]

Come on Bailey! The Hard truth is Gilels Kempff Ashkenazy Radu Lupu More colorful beautiful piano sound than Fleischer and better structure for Beethoven concertos!

[@MrYoumitube]

100% agree with this one as a reference recording, it's also my favourite.

[@geoffreybellah4065]

I agree that the Barenboim/Klemperer cycle is "eccentric" and often fascinating. But I don't think that Barenboim was "untested" as a Beethoven player or as a musician when he recorded the Beethoven concertos with Klemperer. After all, he had been a major presence on the classical music scene for over a decade, as a performer and a recording artist; and more relevantly had already recorded for EMI all the Beethoven sonatas, and the Beethoven Piano Concerto #3 as well as the major sonatas for Westminster. In other words, he was a well-known Beethoven player with a distinct interpretive profile who had the "chutzpah" not just to follow Klemperer's sober approach but to go his own individualistic way in these performances.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

You're right of course, but I would only add that what I meant was that his was a relatively "new" voice in this repertoire compared to the tried and true standard choices.

[@talcottparsons6827]

Kempff's recordings perhaps never became the real reference, possibly due to his idiosyncratic cadenzas. However, it's also interesting that Backhaus/Schmidt-Isserstedt didn't manage it either. German school, Vienna Philharmonic, decent Decca stereo (perhaps not for the US?)- all the ingredients would have been there.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

...if they had bothered to promote it.

[@luccharbonneau9382]

Szell is great That's it

[@ewaldsteyn469]

Most of the referrence recordings you've mentioned thus far really excites me (some I already have and some others I plan to aquire), but I must admit, this one as Refence Recording for me personally is a bit of a dissappoment. I understand the reason why it is called the reference, but this is the one reference that I will gladly just allow to pass me by.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Can't win 'em all!