Reference vs. Preference: What's more important in Hi-Fi Audio?

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[@joentell]

Update: at the end, I meant to say, "if you want to watch my video about DISPERSION using light" not directivity. I might have to make another video about that.

[@JosephTongret]

Joe, the reason why I enjoy your content so much is because you're really into understanding the philosophy of how we experience audio. You're clearly a thinking man (for lack of a better description on my part). Somebody who always wants to know "why" and open minded enough to consider all possibilities. These are traits that usually make people interesting, likeable and relatable in my opinion. Thanks for video, I enjoyed this one! 👍

[@joentell]

I appreciate you saying all of that. I am always seeking to learn and improve.

[@adamjj85]

Totally agree. Start with reference and a well engineered speaker and then tune to your preference and room! Not a fan of speakers that have "signature" sounds built into them, flat anechoic with a smooth off axis response should really be the goal.

[@joentell]

One of these days, we'll find something to disagree about. 😁

[@DearSX]

Great video.

[@irish7460]

"Too much bass is the forgiveable sin in audio" haha love it. So true.

[@TylerStout]

Agreed. I honestly can't think of anything to add as you covered it all lol. I look forward to the Arendal review, a lot of other reviews like them.

[@joentell]

That's a compliment. You're on top of things!

[@user-mz6lt2pr9s]

Great discussion point. Reinforces why I prefer reference or neutrality in my equipment so I can adjust the sound settings based on the input source and quality of the recording. I adjust sometimes from album to album or song to song depending on what sounds good to me - my preference.

[@TheReverendSlim]

With home audio, there are three factors: The speaker, the room, and the listener. The perfect speaker in the ideal room may not sound great to a particular individual. A mediocre speaker in a great room could sound fantastic to someone else. The sound you get is going to be a synergy of those three aspects. And as I think you're saying here, that's why a reference is such an important thing. We have to know what standards the authors crafted their mix using if we want to attempt to recreate the intent of that mix in the home. I used to be the straight reference guy, because I wanted to hear just the mix that was crafted, warts and all. But the more I dig into things, the more I have found a general tailored solution for my room and speakers that both remains generally faithful to the source and has the character of sound that I appreciate across the majority of content. MultEQ-X went a long way toward that, and I've found myself not tinkering with my setup as much lately since finding a sweet spot target curve that works for my speakers, in my particular room, and to my particular ears. Good stuff, Joe!

[@joentell]

I think the majority of people would like the sound of a perfect speaker in an ideal room. Not every single person, but I would bet 80%+ would like it. The research points to that being true. Let's use this simplistic analogy using guitars instead of loudspeakers. If you have 10 guitars of different makes and models, they will all sound inherently different. Each has their own timbre and sound signature. If you play them in different rooms, they will sound even more different from one another. But let's say they all have different tunings on top of all that. Some are off-key and some are tuned correctly. Until we can ensure all of them are in-tune, the other aspects of timbre and the effects of the room are difficult to determine. The first step is to tune the guitars. It's the most important and most noticeable change. Same with loudspeakers. Put a different way, a properly tuned speaker will help the listener hear the timbral differences between speakers as well as making the effects of the room more obvious. The speaker's tuning becomes the control that helps you notice the variables. Hope that makes sense. It's 2:30am and I'm half awake. 😁

[@TheReverendSlim]

@@joentell Sure, the MAJORITY would but there are always gonna' be outliers, and that's the point. There has to be synergy between speaker, room and the listener. The listener is going to be the biggest variable there. And on the guitar analogy, man... guitarists are even worse about their preferences than home theater people! But I get your point.

[@matta9316]

Is your theater in your garage? How do you manage temps so it stays comfortable?

[@joentell]

I applied lightweight insulation foam to the garage door. It stays pretty much the same temperature as in the house. Maybe a bit hotter and colder, but not much.

[@yoster77]

I like the point you make in your reviews about speakers taking to EQ well or not. Feels to me that of a speaker takes well to EQ, then in some cases the default speaker measurement (whether or not it's flat) doesn't matter as much. For instance you could pick up your "preference" speaker and use it "stock" most of the time, but then EQ it to make it flat or "reference" if you ever wanted to (provided you have measurements and an EQ). Win-win in my mind and really opens up some flexibility in your speaker choices. Your other point on a speakers ability to HANDLE reference volume is spot on. I've mistakenly purchased speakers that "reviewers" rave about (because of measurements) only to find that the woofers bottom out, or some other form of distortion, when pushed to the levels I need/want them at.

[@joentell]

I hear you. Most of the speakers that take well to EQ also have a decent frequency response. It's just good speaker design. If they've thought of the physical characteristics of the speaker, they've probably considered the directivity and the proper crossover components to get the best possible response.

[@davidcarr2216]

You're one of the very few good guys in the "game" Joe. The majority of the "HiFi" industry don't care what they sell you - after all, they want a return sale from you in six months. " It's not reference ? It's better than that mate. It does this and sounds like this etc. Most pro speakers do have basic treble and bass trim (as you know) and often come with software for DSP adjustments. How many HiFi speakers do ?

[@34332]

100% agree on DSP. Not only to finetune speakers, but also for roomcorrection.

[@joentell]

I would just nitpick a bit in saying that most room correction isn't really room correction since they aren't changing the physical properties of the room. It's really speaker correction accounting for the interactions with the room. The new Dirac Active Room Treatment is the closest I've heard to sounding like the room itself has changed.

[@34332]

​@@joentell I wouldn't mind at all you doing a topic on that one 😉

[@chefchutardo5215]

Another great video, keep up the good work. We love your simple honest explanations. No mathematical overload on my head while drinking my coffee. Just fun learning,

[@joentell]

That's a huge compliment. Thank you!

[@WindomRettes]

Preference over Reference, Thank You.

[@HikaruSwift17]

Hey Joe, I currently have an old Sony reciever that doesn't have room correction or Advanced EQ other than Bass/Treble +/-1 etc. Is it worth upgrading to a Denon or an Onkyo reciever in order to get HDMI inputs and room correction? Will it make my speakers sound better?

[@joentell]

Getting a new Denon with the MultEQ-X app (software on sale for $149 right now) will open up your system to be capable of sounding as good as possible. This is with a full manual calibration. Dirac is good if you want a fully automated calibration and I think it works really well if simplicity is your top priority.

[@UnitedRedDevil13]

Any word if Dirac is going on sale this week as well?

[@HikaruSwift17]

@@joentell Joe, I just bought a refurbished Denon S660H from Denon's website, if I purchase the MultiEQ-X app, do I have everything I need? Does it come with a room correcting microphone? Also my speakers are 4 ohm Encore B6 and C6. Will the 75W per channel receiver work with those speakers?

[@hifi-photo-Brian]

I am a big fan of the Parasound New Classic 200 pre-amp. It has Bass management (cut off at 80 Hz) with subwoofer volume control on the remote along with treble and bass tone control adjustments on the remote. Magic! I listen to a lot of different types of music where Bass is very boosted(Drum and Bass and trance music). Check out the crazy track called: Overture by Camo & Krooked -> drum and bass track! Enjoy the bass!

[@warrenbailey1473]

There are so many personal auditory sound levels to each audio owner - so presence will always win out - how you came into the hobby-Bass is most disrupting universally but Top end is as annoying depending on the genre or fidelity of the source (sound signature) - if you play to groups of people then reference wins out to suit the wider palette- reference is mostly for image or hi end dollar level audio buyers

[@Audio_Simon]

Reference is my preference, lol. When I've liked speakers with a tailored response it can usualy be explained as balancing the directivity. E.g. mid-woofer has increasing directivity at the high end, so a slightly rising response will help balance the off axis.

[@UnitedRedDevil13]

Joe, random but, i was planning on getting Dirac on sale this week for Black Friday. I thought you’d recommend full band? Also, I think you mentioned in a video about possibly using specific numbers as an email in case we need to pass on the license?

[@joentell]

I prefer MultEQ-X for manual calibration but Dirac is great for auto-calibration. For MultEQ-X, it's tied to your email, but people make an email with their serial number so MultEQ-X is attached to that. Then they can pass on the email and password when they sell the AVR.

[@IvanITpro]

I was left confused why the background changed so many times.. 😅🤷‍♂ Thx for your videos though, loved the light for sound dispersion analogy video - brilliant!!

[@joentell]

I prefer to move around. It feels weird for me to sit/stand in one spot for so long. I find the video is more boring if I stay in the same spot. This way, I'm not so caught up if my background is "perfect."

[@carywatson1146]

Where can I leave a second thumbs up?! We’ll said Joe!

[@joentell]

Thanks Cary!

[@DAVID-io9nj]

No question that preference is the key. All human sense is personal preference. That is why there is so much variety. My background is photography. There are scientific standards in photography. The main standard is neutral gray. But people will still prefer colors that are not neutral gray. Japanese color preference tends towards green. American goes for warm yellow. Germany goes for cyan.

[@joentell]

I also work with color calibration for cameras. I have a side business related to it. I've analyzed color charts for weeks at a time. It's not healthy. 😁 Related to the topic in the video, even when professionals color grade video, they typically do a correction to a reference accurate look prior to adding their artistic color grade.

[@jegantdragoch.7088]

i worry if i get reference speakers i would end up maybe flattening the entertainment/media that Im watching by accident? i feel its the reference that are made to have more clarity and detail? is this true or not? it sounds like buy reference then EQ to your preference XD

[@joentell]

If you buy "reference" accurate speakers, your experience will be more similar to what the mixer heard. Let's just pretend you purchased the same speakers they used. Your experience will be more similar. It won't be exact because you aren't in the same room and you don't know how they've calibrated their system. My system is setup for accuracy, and at no point does it sound boring. Quite the opposite. Another side effect is that more often than not, stuff sounds really good! If it doesn't, it's likely the mix. Ie. Old mixes prior to the 90's don't have as much bass as ones after. That's just how they were mixed and I'm ok with that. If you had a "reference" system and decided to "remix" it on the fly with more bass etc... you could. Then you could zero out the changes for the next track if you would like.

[@jegantdragoch.7088]

@@joentell thank you for the explanation

[@AmericanConstellation]

The biggest variable in audio is your ears. It's what you can hear and what you like.

[@joentell]

Yes, that's what this entire video was about.

[@TriAmpHiFi]

. Finding a pair of reference stereo speakers that have a frequency response of zero decibels down from 20Hz to 20KHz (playing flat) is difficult to near impossible. Reggae, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊

[@TriAmpHiFi]

Now find me an Album or CD with a range from 20 to 20 actually recorded.

[@joentell]

All valid points. 20hz-20khz is just a metric. We can hope...

[@TriAmpHiFi]

With 24Db slopes, I'd be happy to be 3db down at 40 & 16Khz.

[@joentell]

@@TriAmpHiFi that's a good target. I'm a sucker for deep bass extension. The more clean bass extension, the more impressed I am, especially if the enclosure is small relative to the bass output. That's important to me in a 2-channel setup with no sub. With a sub, or in a home theater setup, bass extension isn't as crucial for me.

[@OledBurnInKing]

I'm still looking for a pair of headphones whether they are open back, close back and also the same thing for iems and even studio monitors that is ruler flat frequency response from 20 hz to 20 khz with no eq, no dsp, no filters, and no compression. I don't use any eq, no filters anymore. When I used to use an equilizer when I was a basshead. Like the sliders in a nba video game when I created a character I would maxed out all sliders, I would use an equalizer in the same exact way with all the sliders maxed out just like creating a video game character in a nba video game. If I wanted to alter my audio I would use an external solid state dac amp and a tube amp. I'm not a fan of mqa due to it being proprietary and not a fan of dsp because everytime I think of dsp, I automatically think of bose. I daily drive my sennheiser hd 600 the marble version and my yamaha hs50m studio monitors have no dsp. Both of which don't have dsp that's why I use both. For audio, I went from being a basshead to wanting reference and accurate sound quality. On my yamaha studio monitors, I leave the knobs at mid eq at 0db, room control 0db, high trim 0db, low cut at flat and level in the middle at +4db since there is no 0db option otherwise I would choose 0db if 0db was in the middle for the level if 0 db was available. The levels on the very left says min and on the very right it says -10db. I use rockville speaker stands with my studio monitors at an equilateral triangle towards my ears and my rockville speaker stands are on my tv stand next to my 65 inch samsung curve qled 4k tv while being connected to my schiit hel 2 dac amp and my topping d10s dac display to see the sample rate and to see the format if the format is pcm or dsd and my tv is set to uncompressed pcm for my 2 channel stereo setup. For my preference, I would choose video quality that is not accurate but with the most immersive, most color saturated colors that pop with the brightest display in the display settings.

[@sudd3660]

Reference is for engineers and preference is for consumers, generalized of course. how i go about it: i want my system to sound evenly loud at all frequencies at listening position. that is it, simple right? and god bless dsp, best thing to happen to hifi for sure :)

[@joentell]

You might be surprised to learn that your method might lead to a measurement that is closer to reference than you think. Engineers would be proud.

[@sudd3660]

@@joentell my mic is telling me that i am 20db off at least... but i am close to the fletcher munson curve. and i bet that in some rooms at lest the bass will follow it with room gain applied, and if you sit near the rear wall.

[@joentell]

@@sudd3660 20dB off where? The bass? That's not surprising. My True Target app determines the specific target curve for the room and it's vastly different from room to room depending on the speakers and listening position.

[@sudd3660]

@@joentell yepp, it is the bass boost i gave it.

[@joentell]

@@sudd3660 I've seen it many times. A rising bass response might be exactly what your room requires. Even the Harman curve many people use has about a 10dB rise. I'm telling you, you're preference is probably closer to reference than you think. 😁 You're experienced in this hobby so I wouldn't be surprised.

[@Birmingham_racing]

This is why I prefer a balanced sound and never touch tone controls

[@carminedesanto6746]

GM ☕️ Preference trumps Reference ..be cause you’re the one who has to like it .

[@KimmoJaskari]

I wish all the assholes who master music would stop annihilating it with compression and the removal of all dynamic range. I'd like to not feel comfortable calling almost all mastering engineers assholes, but the end result they produce industry-wide speaks for itself.

[@KeithHeinrich]

Any conversation about hearing what was recorded is missing the point really. Its impossible to know what a recording should sound like unless the exact conditions where the recording was made can be reproduced. Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves. The best one can hope for if heading down that path is a reasonable facsimile of what was recorded. Or the better choice, the preference for how you like things presented whatever that sounds like - whether it sounds like it was recorded in a well or at a nightclub. That will be the listener's reference and no one else's. Without getting all technical or scientific, turns out the room is likely to have the most significant impact to a listening experience. So unless you are listening inside an anechoic chamber you're behind the eight ball right away. Some choices then, room treatment, DSP or maybe both. DSP is used for concert sound to provide a uniform experience for every seat in different venues... why not at home to provide room correction too? Dirac is increasingly a thing found in domestic products for this reason. It does a whole lot more than just adjusting the bass and treble. Bottom line, preference. It does not matter what someone thinks something should sound like, I know what I like and that's whats important to me and that right there is my reference. Same deal for almost everyone else on the planet too I imagine. Otherwise folks are just listening to the gear instead of enjoying the music.

[@joentell]

You might be interested to know about a psychoacoustic phenomenon that happens when you're in a room for an extended period of time. You start to catalogue the acoustics of the room and you're able to mentally subtract the room's effects on the initial sound. This is up to a limit of course. But it's why you can have a conversation in an echoey room and not notice after a while, but if you were to record the audio from that room and play it back later, the reverb would sound much more obvious. Here's a mental exercise: if you put a live band in an acoustically bad room, would they still sound like a live band to you? I think they would. There's no need to EQ them to make them sound as if they were in an anechoic chamber. In fact, hearing them in an anechoic chamber would probably sound more foreign than in a bad room. It is my opinion that the higher frequencies on an accurate speaker should probably not be DSP'ed regardless of the room's effect at the main listening position. The reason being, that your brain is undoing some of the room effects already. Bass is a different story. You should always correct the bass since the speaker and room are inseparable.

[@KeithHeinrich]

@@joentell thoughtful reply, thanks. Having spent plenty of time in the past with bands in bad rooms including rehearsal rooms and small venues, I know how bad they can sound no matter what you do. In an empty venue compared to when the house is full of people same deal. The terrible does not fade away, if anything it becomes more profound but you try and work around it. Now of course DSP, you can correct easily for the prevailing conditions. In my listening room I have a small room system we call the Tardis. It defies logic something so small sounds so big and clean, the sound seems to come from everywhere. Had Maggies in the room at one point, so there's a comparison right there. The secret sauce is Dirac which has tamed the room, controls the bass, adjusted the response curve in the room so it sounds how I like it - the ears defy what the eye can see which is not much, its barely visible in the room. Its a really neat trick. It absolutely punishes a poor recording, you can't put back whats not there. What it cannot do is match the dynamics of lets say a system with a compression drive horn tweeter, but otherwise its all there. How this started was with speakers. After research and reviews, I had thought B&W speakers would be suitable, hated them, brought home something else instead. Purely a preference. Now I have downstream gear better matched to the quality of the speakers and obviously Dirac which brought the whole thing to life. Stoked, but my preference for a specific use case. And Yamaha have the magic control you mentioned. That's how their "loudness" control for low level listening works. From the interwebs: "The Loudness feature on Yamaha stereo amplifiers is essentially a form of volume-dependent equalization. This is designed to compensate for the changes in human hearing sensitivity at different volume levels. The feature is based on the well-established principle known as the Fletcher-Munson curves or Equal-Loudness Contours, which demonstrate that the human ear perceives different frequencies differently at low volumes compared to high volumes."

[@net_news]

@@joentell man this answer is AMAZING, please make a video about it!! You play in a different league Joe!! 👏

[@joentell]

@@KeithHeinrich Thank YOU for he thoughtful response. I definitely appreciate the back and forth and sharing of experiences. I talked about the Loudness feature in my Yamaha A-S501 review. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y5SomWiemsdpfJY I know what you mean about terrible rooms. There's a threshold for reverb and a combination of early and late reflections where the brain cannot compensate for it. There's just too much smearing happening. I was an early beta tester for Dirac ART and I've had the former CEO and one of the founders, Nilo Casimiro Ericsson and one of their senior engineers over here at my place to check out my home theater. It was a cool experience. ART can definitely help tame some of the nasty decay times, but it works best under 150hz.

[@joentell]

@@net_news oh man, thank you. I'm just going based on previous research that has been done by Dr. Floyd Toole and others from Harman, as well as discussions I've had with Paul Barton from PSB. They did a lot of research at the NRCC in Canada. An example of this effect is when they would do blind testing for speakers, they would automatically eliminate the first round of testing because they learned that listeners needed to acclimate themselves to the room. They would give the listeners a break and when they came back, the listeners would ask whether they were listening to a totally different set of speakers. The listening tests were much more consistent after the listeners had spent more time in the room. My own personal experience that is easy to replicate is with binaural recordings. If I do a binaural recording and have someone listen to the recording in the same location as the original recording, the reproduction is much more convincing since what we're hearing in the recording matches what we see visually. We've created a mental map of the room's acoustics. But if we play back that same recording in a different room, the realism is significantly decreased.

[@i_read_bad_reviews]

Prefrence because reference has no bass

[@joentell]

Reference absolutely has bass. Some things claim to be reference, but are not. If you're in an average room and sit 8ft+, a flat response at your listening position is not reference. That would sound like you described it...no bass.