Reinhardt “Pivot System” Embouchure Types and Pivot Classifications Explained

[@redbuIIracing33]

After days of experimenting and watching videos of embouchure shaping, I found out my type is the downstream third type. I can generate sound reliably and can hit higher note with it much more comfortably. Thank you for the video!

[@trumpetthoughts]

Glad to hear it!

[@matjazmusic]

Thanks Donovan. You just don't know how much you helped me with your explanation. My playing has singnificantly improved in just a few days and is gettig better and better.

[@trumpetthoughts]

Great to hear!

[@rickgordon4832]

Enjoyed your video. I studied with Doc from 1979 until his death in 1989. I have digitized most of his reel to reel tapes of his teachings. Also a good friend of Doug Elliott (he's who took me up to see Doc) and he has certainly refined some of Doc's teachings. I was a dry lip IIIB and Doc put me on a wet lip and now I'm a IV. I owe my career to him, Dave Sheetz and Doug Elliott. Doc was a genius but also an incredible player. I have a recording of him playing Blue Bells of Scotland in high school...amazing!

[@trumpetthoughts]

I bet those tapes are awesome!

[@rickgordon4832]

@@trumpetthoughts Had my buddy take my file and add some pics. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aouucqt3brqUibcsi=w4PMjhyzlc2zZ--3

[@gregoryosen4464]

I learned about the pivot system when I was in grade school (almost 70 years ago), and have his original book copyrighted in 1942, but never studied under any trumpet players in school or college. Your explanation is excellent and explains a lot about my playing. I am a type IV with a type 2 pivot. I play on a small mouthpiece and always had a very bright sound and extreme high register. Now i know why.

[@trumpetthoughts]

Knowledge is power - right?

[@wojtektrumpet]

Thanks for a video Donovan! I admire your work in sharing different approaches when it comes to trumpet playing. Been into the Reinhardt stuff for a while and I personally find it very helpful! I like watching your "embouchure journey" since I'm on my very own. Thanks again and all the best!

[@trumpetthoughts]

My pleasure!

[@flash7355]

Hey this really helped me to try new things I can now very easily play D4 with my Bach 3Cmt vernon.

[@trumpetthoughts]

Fantastic!

[@GamerDad1987]

Ive been curious about what i was since I first heard about it. I listen to the Trumpet Gurus Podcast, and many of the grumpet olayers thT have been guests on the show have talked about it. Based on this video, im pretty confident I'm a 4. I also have always had more success with range all through my trumpet playing development, and I primarily play lead in a local big band. I have sometimes struggled with endurance from too much pressure on my too lip, but have made big progress by learning to play more efficiently and improved aperture control to not need as much pressure. I can make it through a 2 hoir big band gig without much trouble now. I have always tended to have a brighter sound, and ive just accepted it at this point. It suits my play style.

[@trumpetthoughts]

I'd encourage you to take a lesson with a Reinhardt teacher!

[@johnfass7800]

Thank you for the video. I look forward to watching more videos from you.

[@trumpetthoughts]

Thanks for watching!

[@tonysurrency4756]

The pivot is not the angle of the horn but rather the movement of the embrouchere over a pattern defined for each type player. Doc would set this up during the first lesson.

[@trumpetthoughts]

Yup - exactly.

[@JeffLewisTrumpet]

This is really great! Please continue. Thanks!

[@trumpetthoughts]

Thank you! Will do!

[@brassyjazzful]

Wow...I feel really bad....I think I'm a 4a player, and it makes so much sense why I've been struggling at the trumpet for almost 25 years...I have a huge overbite and have been struggling for about 25 years to become a good player....to no avail.....Used to be good, or at least was on my way when I was in college around 2001, but I think my teeth and jaw have changed for the worse...I've been working recently w/ someone who has worked on Reinhardt stuff w/ a couple of Reinhardt's older students...He's an insanely good player and has helped me in the past..... I play on a 3c, and have been for a while, and wondering if it's too big now....Starting to lose hope that I'll ever be good at the trumpet.

[@trumpetthoughts]

Don't give up - but keep experimenting! The Reinhardt stuff is a great place to start for troubled players.

[@whugheswhughes98144]

I tried figuring this out from Reinhardt's own docs but couldn't get it. This is the first vid that's help me figure out what type I am and immediately helped. I thought the 'pivot' was an angle issue, not a vertical movement.

[@trumpetthoughts]

That's an EXTREMELY common misconception - you are not alone! I implore you to take a lesson with a Reinhardt teacher. I do think for many folks it will be a tremendous help.

[@chasefreak]

Good job-I might do a video and post it on my youtube page going more into detail-here's some examples I use Type IV-Jon Faddis, Bud Brisbois, Cat Anderson, Wynton Marsalis, Roy Roman, Freddie Hubbard, Miles Davis, Fats Navarro, Roy Eldridge, Al Killian, Ryan Kisor, Seneca Black, Rashawn Ross, Serafin Agular, Arnie Chycoski, Al Hirt, Scott Engelbrite Type IIIA-Harry James, Arturo Sandoval, Lin Biviano, Roger Ingram, Wayne Bergeron, Chris Botti, Gary Grant, Jerry Hey, Phil Driscoll, Hakan Hardenberger, Charley Davis, Bobby Shew, Pete Olstad, Greg Gisbert Type IIIB-Maynard Ferguson, Louis Armstrong, Dizzy Gillespie, Bill Chase, Johnny Madrid, Bud Herseth, Clark Terry, Johnny Audino, Conte Candoli, Red Rodney, Lynn Nicholson, Allen Vizzutti, Chuck Mangione, Vinnie D'Martino, Byron Stripling, Dan Miller, Sam Noto, Paul Cacia, Randy Brecker, Mike Bogart, Don Ellis, John Harner, Dan Fornero, Chuck Findley, Ronnie Romm, Mark Zauss Type III-Conrad Gozzo, Herb Alpert, Cootie Williams, Tom Parmeter

[@trumpetthoughts]

I'd love to see that!

[@SteamMikey]

Fascinating. After your last video I looked up Reinhardt. I'm back on trumpet after 35y break and really want to get my emb right. Definitely type 4, but I've been meaning towards larger MPs to get more top lip in. As I fatigue in the upper register my top lip can almost leave the cup. I now recognise this could be the effect of the pivot. Now I'm thinking that I should explore smaller MPs and focus on not pivoting so much.

[@trumpetthoughts]

You should definitely connect with a Reinhardt instructor before you try and figure this out on your own. A couple of lessons will get you on the right path, and have you working on the right things, and stay away from the wrong things...

[@SteamMikey]

@@trumpetthoughts I'm on the lookout but they're thin on the ground in Australia. 😟 Do you think that a lesson with a Reinhardt teacher would need to be in-person?

[@trumpetthoughts]

No. All of mine were online.

[@krthr]

I thought the dog at 8:23 was live and outdoors at first, but then I realized it was in the video. 🤣 Based on your video, I suspect that I started out as a IIIB. Our beginning band teacher was a horn player who taught everyone "2/3 top lip, 1/3 bottom lip" for all brass players. Having a slight overbite and not being able to pivot up (when I tried today), suggests I'm not (nor was) a IIIA. Since then, I seem to have gravitated towards being a IV, although I seem to be able to play as both a IIIB and a IV. An interesting quirk is that I found sometime in the past few years that if I move my jaw forward a little, I can slide into high notes REALLY easily albeit without a lot of power. Occasionally, it sounds like I'm actually somehow playing an octave lower but magically cutting off the fundamental. It's... strange. Occasionally, I can make those notes speak. For a bit, I was able to smoothly switch from my "normal" playing to this "jaw forward" position, but then I seemed to lose the ability to do that. Since then, G on the staff is weak (using jaw forward) and notes below are mostly terrible-sounding. I'm at the point where I can't decide if my "jaw forward" is a weird gimmick I found or if it's something I could actually develop into a usable technique. 😅

[@trumpetthoughts]

That is interesting... Have you taken a lesson with a Reinhardt teacher to get their input?

[@krthr]

@@trumpetthoughts Just did a first Zoom session two days ago with someone, and I'm experimenting with playing upstream and "pivoting" (sliding) up to play lower. It's... interesting. Still trying to figure out if it feels like a viable way to play. Yesterday, I did SOMETHING around pivoting and could play higher than normal using (I think) a IIIB embouchure, so I'm more confused than when I started but REALLY optimistic that I'm close to making sense of things. 😅

[@trumpetthoughts]

@@krthr I bet another lesson or two and you'll make progress you never thought possible!

[@normanbartlettofaylesbury9444]

Hi, Recently came across your site. I picked up the Reinhardt Encyclopedia about 30 years ago and worked out that I am a type IV (more lower lip) and pulldown to ascend. However i did not find that knowledge especially useful! In you video you suggest that knowing the type helps in mouthpiece choice. I have played on Bach 1 and 3 size and currently play a Bach 5b. So, as a type IV, do you think I would get some additional natural benefit from playing on a smaller and deeper mouthpiece? Maybe a Bach 7b or 10b?? thanks for the video - very thought provoking.

[@trumpetthoughts]

Type IV can generally play any diameter size. For endurance, it makes sense to play the smallest diameter that still works for you. I think most folks would actually be best served on a 7 to 10.5 diameter range.

[@digitalobilvi0n246]

no joke I watched this video, and I grabbed my horn and assumed I was a 3B I played normally then I tried playing while down pivoting and hit a grand C. woah!

[@trumpetthoughts]

Hurray!

[@soundsizzleYT]

HI Donavan, Thanks for this explanation. It has really helped. I think I'm a 4. Where am I best going for a diagnosis.

[@trumpetthoughts]

Doug Elliott: www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/doug.html David Wilken: wilktone.com/

[@soundsizzleYT]

@@trumpetthoughts Thanks Donovan

[@petercoghlan2217]

Hi, I think I am a type 4 of sorts for trumpet (I also play trombone, as type 3) ie both setups as per Arban's books. Trumpet 1/3 upper lip, Trombone 1/3 bottom lip. Sadly/ Glady self taught as tutors in Bathurst NSW get high notes by good luck rather than being able to articulate what's going on. I would seem to have an high note limit on trumpet that does not change with mouthpieces. Ie 1 1/2 C back to 7C, all the time capped at first G or A above the staff. Would appreciate further input from you to settle a few unspoken myths / legends and physics as not finding a workable answer as yet. Can also play trumpet as type 3 but endurance suffers. May only take 5 minutes of your time. I am at +10 (+11) GMT so timezone problems

[@trumpetthoughts]

I would encourage you to take a lesson with a Reinhardt instructor to find out what is going on. www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/prices.html wilktone.com/

[@GamerDad1987]

Not Reinhart related, but playing above the staff on trumpet takes very high speed airstream. You get that through compression of the air to get the airspeed up. It is NOT about having more air (the more air myth has caused many trumpet players to over low and have more issues, myself included). You need fast air. Look into Bobby Shew's wedge breathing or "yoga breath" on how to breathe for trumpet playing. Also look into things like tounge arch and how the oral cavity can aid in the airspeed. You may benefit from a smaller diameter mouthpiece, but a 3C should still work and let you use the full range of the instrument above a high C.

[@patrickcolwell4202]

Ya I head mike talk abought this at the school of music in 1982 when he was in the navy band it was confusing then and it's confusing now

[@trumpetthoughts]

That's fair.

[@mastershifu2117]

Thank you so much

[@trumpetthoughts]

You're most welcome

[@bobchu9719]

I think I am a type 4 player. How do i know if I am 4a or 4b?

[@JazzyJonas]

According to my visualizer, I play with more bottom lip and pull down to ascend. However, my air stream goes more and more downward when I ascend as well, so I don't know.

[@trumpetthoughts]

How do you know your air steam is going down when you play?

[@JazzyJonas]

@@trumpetthoughts I can feel the air stream with my other hand. Holding my hand about six inches in front of my embouchure, with the visualizer anyway, I can feel the air go more and more downward as I ascend to the point that it (air stream) goes below my hand as I buzz above g above the staff.

[@trumpetthoughts]

@@JazzyJonas I had a hunch you were gonna say that. Visualizer isn't the best way to tell. A clear mouthpiece is even better. I'd recommend lessons with a Reinhardt instructor!

[@JazzyJonas]

@@trumpetthoughts Now that you mention it, I'm probably "lip buzzing" into the visualizer which is not really possible to do upstream. Thanks for the advice!

[@trumpetthoughts]

@@JazzyJonas Ahhhhh - see! That's why the visualizer isn't helpful for this.

[@mmeegg1961]

Creo que soy 4A pero trato de no bajar tanto la boquilla para no perder resistencia, mi pivote es tipo 2.

[@trumpetthoughts]

Es importante mover la boquilla y los labios como una sola unidad, y girar para que la parte vibrante de su labio permanezca en la corriente de aire entre los dientes.

[@trumpetflix]

Did you study with Doc?

[@trumpetthoughts]

No, I have studied with many of his students: Dave Sheetz, Chris Labarbara, and Doug Elliott.

[@chrisaschman4453]

Nice video! I’m hoping to learn more about this as I read the reinhardt encyclopedia, but this was super easy to understand. Do you have any content out about type 1 and 2? I think I’m a type Ia or IIa

[@trumpetthoughts]

I would encourage you to take a lesson with a Reinhardt instructor to find out what is going on. www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/prices.html wilktone.com/

[@mmeegg1961]

Exelente

[@trumpetthoughts]

Gracias!

[@MrJDZ]

¡Gracias!

[@chasefreak]

BTW-if you know for 100% sure you ARE an Upstream type then you should avoid pedal tones at all costs according to "Doc"...I have a couple CD's of "Doc" explaining this transferred from a cassette to CD...I can't use them as I'm a IIIB Downstream type but, you're welcome to 'em if you'd like...

[@trumpetthoughts]

Thank you for this. Are these the same ones that have been posted here: www.boptism.com/product-category/doc-reinhardt-listening-zone/

[@artvandelay8090]

It cracks me up how everyone thinks they're a KZbin expert these days. Here's a guy who never studied with Doc Reinhardt, can't even correctly spell "embouchure" going on KZbin and talking as if he's an expert on the Pivot System having never studied with Doc, then goes and blows a few high notes to garner credibility. There's a lot to be gained from having studied with Doc. He imparted a lot of information in lessons that weren't included in his Encyclopedia of the Pivot System, so much so that Doc actually had a certification program by which he trained a handful of his students to be "certified Pivot System instructors." I don't know if he actually issued paper certificates to graduates of the program, but suffice to say that these people were given Doc's blessing to go out and teach the principles of his system. He didn't approve of people who didn't go through this instructor training to go out and represent themselves as qualified Pivot System instructors. When Doc was alive, there was no such thing as the internet. If he had envisioned that some day there would be this thing called the "internet" that would be like the wild, wild, west in terms of people spreading misinformation all over the place, he probably would have made his certification program more formalized to ensure that you didn't have these "legend in their own mind" younger generations our there bastardizing it and talking about it after gaining just a smidgeon of information on it.

[@jerseychops]

Dave sheetz is one of the best

[@BenjaminFrock]

As someone who has studied with several of Reinhardt’s students, I found this video to be a refreshingly accurate overview

[@trumpetthoughts]

Wow "Art Vanedlay" - you're kind of a jerk. First of all - I'm not out here acting like I'm an expert and I'm sure as hell not shilling for students. I recommend ANYONE WHO IS INTERESTED to study with Doug Elliot, Dave Wilken (who studied with Doug), or Chris LaBarbara. My sole purpose in sharing my experience and my thoughts is to HELP people. I love playing the trumpet, but up until studying with Reinhardt students, it's been a struggle, and I see LOTS of other people struggling. And FWIW - I've studied with 3 different Reinhardt teachers who studied directly with Reinhardt...

[@trumpetthoughts]

JerseyChops: Agreed. I'm not sure he's still teaching... I did study with Dave and he helped me immensely.

[@artvandelay8090]

@@trumpetthoughts Kind of a jerk? Listen, being a fat, bald, gay man who calls people names on top of it is not a good way to go through life, you should take a good look at yourself. You must be really miserable.

[@earltpt]

I see you like a drop of scotch 👍👍👍

[@trumpetthoughts]

Indeed!