Rejecting Racial Determinism | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter | The Glenn Show

[@megg.6651]

John, I am a teacher and it IS going on now - Black kids still accuse their peers who do well in school of trying to "act white". And I work in a school with mostly Black kids!

[@billsimms2511]

It’s definitely still a strong theme in the Chicago area. My neighbors son goes to school there and he gets hounded if he focuses on his work

[@amorfati4927]

Yeah it’s the same here. I sat in on a _social justice_ groups first meeting where people were talking about themselves and where they came from. Almost all of the black people had the same story talking about how they got more shit (especially the mixed race) from black people than white people. Extremely odd situation seeing as they were already down or going down the BLM path and just seemed to glance over that really glaring thing.

[@JohnSmith-hs1hn]

What ate you doing to change it?

[@Muck006]

*Have you talked to the kids about SERFDOM?* Whiteys (99% of us) in Europe WERE SLAVES TOO ... it just was called differently ... and we didnt get any reparations for that ... we just WORKED HARD AND SLOWLY IMPROVED OUR LOT.

[@AvaSession7Ex]

And? What are you as a TEACHER doing to change that mindset?

[@markmoretti9122]

There is nothing like this kind of dialogue anywhere. Thanks guys.

[@johanswede8200]

Halleluja

[@relevantusername3342]

You guys would get millions of views if you two just made your own channel. The rest of this channel's shows forces the algorithm to drag you two down. You guys would explode on your own.

[@SvenErik_Lindstrom3]

That's true. I don't actually subscribe to this Chanel, because I don't care about the other content.

[@TheNas45]

@@SvenErik_Lindstrom3 Is it because they agree with your racial biases?

[@SvenErik_Lindstrom3]

@@TheNas45 Yes.

[@JavierEzln94]

I would love to see these two create their own channel(s).

[@dbarker7794]

@@TheNas45 wow! Super-insightful!!!

[@tysparks598]

Two of my favorite public intellectuals... I swear, listening to your conversations makes work roll by so quickly... Thank you.

[@andrepack]

Not intellectuals only common sense.

[@chachalongo4255]

For as brilliant as Glenn can be; he also says some of the stupidest things you could imagine. Glenn, stop it, you can expect Blacks in the inner-city engaged in the Drug War to avoid death and destruction just as much as you can expect the soldiers sent to IraQ to have conducted peace operations. Stop it, you cannot be that stupid. QED

[@justinmathis8078]

@@chachalongo4255 we get it. you don’t expect anything from us

[@chachalongo4255]

@@justinmathis8078, bro, stop pretending to be stupid. You get it, so the sum and substance of what I said is: "don't expect anything from [Blacks]. Well . . . I'm Black, and I own 6 houses, but to read your post, one would think that I should stop charging rent. And my response to that is: you sound hella stupid, bro. Wake up. QED

[@justinmathis8078]

@@chachalongo4255 I’m sure a KZbin commenter who copy and pastes his comments over and over is plenty successful. You imply that we’re in a situation from which you shouldn’t expect us to put in the effort to succeed. It’s sad honestly.

[@Daniel-ds4oq]

I'd love to see you guys on Rogan and really get the attention you two deserve, I find every conversation extremely interesting and insightful, thank you for sharing your knowledge and perspective.

[@chachalongo4255]

For as brilliant as Glenn can be; he also says some of the stupidest things you could imagine. Glenn, stop it, you can expect Blacks in the inner-city engaged in the Drug War to avoid death and destruction just as much as you can expect the soldiers sent to IraQ to have conducted peace operations. Stop it, you cannot be that stupid. QED

[@OQIF87NREU]

@@chachalongo4255 that is one of the stupidest comparisons I have ever heard

[@chachalongo4255]

@@OQIF87NREU, really? That means you would not recognize a comparison if it smacked you in the face. (lol) QED

[@billsimms2511]

They would be great on Rogans podcast

[@amorfati4927]

@@chachalongo4255 Do you think most black people in the inner city are involved in the drug war and such or more than likely part of them (what percentage I have no idea could be 50% or over or could be under) but they are the louder and more publicized part of that population? The main argument is the agency to leave the situation… Which there’s all sorts of reasons why that is not as simple as people make it out to be because when it is all people know they don’t think a world outside exists or is any different than the world that they’re in. American’s sheer lack of any knowledge of the rest of the world drives that point home (in the US _the poverty line_ is still either the top 90% or 99% [I can’t remember which] of the world’s population and a homeless person is still better off than the most of the world’s population as a whole).

[@joeykremple]

Are there two more likable folks out there who talk about such tense and difficult issues? I don’t think so. Glenn and John are not only American treasures, they are so impressively chill in their braininess.

[@billsimms2511]

They are great and have a way with words that I never will 😂😂

[@AerysBat]

Glenn's ability to extemporize is just insane. He should try dictation to start writing his memoir, he can just speak and record his thoughts and then have a place to start with editing.

[@4himsanctified]

great way to do it.

[@daveg5857]

The man does not waste words. Sometimes I think of myself as smart, and then I listen to someone like Glenn and change my mind.

[@4himsanctified]

@@daveg5857 top of his game in this episode

[@yclept9]

These are professors. They can talk sensibly until the end of the hour for every class.

[@JOHN----DOE]

My brain works similarly. In my case I freeze doing public speaking. But if I'm talking to one person I can extemporize beautifully. People like that need to be followed around with a recording machine.

[@Apriluser]

You two are amazing, churning out all of these conversations. And we are the grateful recipients!

[@jaysway9251]

I absolutely love these talks. Have a great long weekend everyone!

[@jasmadams]

"It's a field...in that you can major in it." I laughed out loud on that one.

[@ultraderek]

I have major respect for anyone who can write a book. It was so painful for me to write my master’s thesis.

[@ahmedfuseinialhassan1034]

... more power to you ✊🏾😅

[@ancientfuture9690]

I have come across tons of comments (on youtube and Insta) from black people that have described their experiences of "being called white" simply because school and studying was important (and even fun) for them. It's a real thing and it's still happening. Perhaps not to the same degree but the phenomenon is still present with us today.

[@npickard4218]

Ancient, I'm a classroom teacher and I hear it on a regular basis.

[@capoman1]

I think this is an example of where we can see race identity is a social construct, even more than gender. People draw stereotypes and equate them with a skin color. So blacks can "act white."

[@mademsoisellerhapsody]

Note that it is not white colored people calling the students names. It’s a black American thing.

[@josephvala8302]

As a white male who occupies the center (it's a lonely place but getting larger thankfully), these shows have become a staple for learning and am sharing them on social media. Thank you for these!

[@jordanchiaruttiniREALTOR]

I love Glen. Dude needs a bigger audience. I love John, but i don't think he wants a bigger audience, really. They both deserve it, but I think Glen wants it and deserves it.

[@mac94312]

Agreed. Glenn needs to leaving bloggingheads and start his own channel to build a larger audience

[@Jointknight]

I think the actual problem is that they don't represent the Left or the Right, they are basically moderates or centrists, and to even follow what they are saying takes a little more education, which your average hsit poster is going to neither have the interest or ability to follow.

[@npickard4218]

I prefer Glenn too !!

[@markmunson5035]

Love your conversations. While criticism of Sowell and Steele is fine, I think the truth lies in the outcomes that are apparent when looking back over the last 40 years. Has government intervention and policies had a positive effect on alleviating the disparities that exist either for poor blacks or poor people in general. Obviously, things like healthcare and early childhood education are helpful, but in general, government programs have not done the job. The issues of fatherless families, not having children until your ready, avoiding criminal activity, staying in school are culturally issues that have to be addressed in the community. The argument that every ill facing poor blacks is because of racism doesn’t provide a solution and never will.

[@npickard4218]

School Choice is transformative and never seems to slip into these conversations. As long as the child follows the money, underachievement is what we get. Once the money follows the child, then we will see positive change.

[@Muck006]

Indoctrination into REBRANDED COMMUNIST ideology should NOT be happening in schools.

[@zengjanezhu]

That is why I am so furious at democrats keep pretending fighting for blacks while they are against school choices and also they are the ones locking down schools in the past year. In CA, the public schools have been closed since March 2020. The local community college still will be closed in the coming fall semester. Nobody can claim online education is the same as onsite learning.

[@jennylowrey6783]

I have been listening to the two of you for the past year and a half. Your conversations give me hope for the kind of dialog that is possible. The fact that you can critique a writing or idea without resorting to name calling or call into question the intention or integrity of the person writing it is so refreshing. Thank you for allowing the rest of us to be privy to your conversations.

[@Ohsosweettango]

Beautifully said Dr. Loury.

[@suesmith2183]

I love these two guys; hugely intelligent and very honest!!!

[@roberts5890]

14:10 - 18:05 ...What a succinct, balanced & impactful summary of the "race issue" ...these 4 mins embodies why I listen to you guys!

[@sonnylee8128]

Thanks both of you. I’m a 73 year old retired music teacher/musician. I have taught in black communities and performed with racially mixedentertainers/musicians my entire career. I’ve spent a lot of energy/time examining race relations. Recently, I have found both of you along with Thomas Sowell and Shelby Steele. I appreciate all of you or keeping my mind open. God Bless and keep your voices loud, proud, and in the forefront.

[@Dash277]

Glen really hit on the root of it... you're in charge of your destiny and you have a lot of opportunity. More than anywhere else or any other time. This is true of all humanity.

[@dookula]

One of the best episodes of the show I've seen. Even more impressed than I already was by these two men. Next time Murray comes back both Glenn and John should be there!

[@jakemorj5498]

Best thing I ever did over year ago was stumble across Glenn and John.

[@rayhan3654]

@14:10 to @18:20 Glenn is just an intellectual powerhouse ... That was breathtaking and John's response was fitting ... I have no idea how Glenn manages to articulate so damn precisely off the cuff! My favourite duo ❗

[@willmercury]

Regarding the legitimacy of "stepping outside one's field," I'm reminded of a comment by another great linguist, Steven Pinker, who observed that there is no disciplinary division of great ideas, only various lenses through which we consider them. To suggest that disciplinary specificity is mandatory for commentary on certain topics is effectively another form of blinkered, standpoint epistemology. I think it is neither necessary nor sufficient, and ultimately, unhelpful. The best insights will be derived from commentary and consideration across the broad spectrum of intellectual engagements. EO Wilson has called for consilience between the disciplines as the best approach to achieving the most refined understanding. To insist that intellectuals from disciplines considered external to the matter at hand keep their noses out of the discussion, is itself a form of epistemic apartheid, also known as ideology.

[@PikeBishop1]

Nor an allopathic doctor of any title.

[@Ninoblack88]

I'm a bit disappointed in what amounted to a non response to the arguments in Hannah's piece. I think his arguments warrant a more vigorous response. Perhaps, as I suspect, much of his arguments are quite strong as a real criticism of black conservative thinking. He practically eviscerated sowell....echoing my own thinking around the shortcomings of sowell and others.

[@adstanrashaw9279]

I wonder if the left has told Noam Chomsky that he is just a linguist.

[@kmaidotia]

I think Thomas Sowell has.

[@billsimms2511]

See Chomsky on valuetainment? He was asked if he would debate Swell and he wanted no part in that .. Chomsky was rattling off a hundred excuses as to why he couldn’t do it haha

[@mikegray8776]

No - but someone really should.

[@bev_buntu4674]

Chomsky is this___this__ American Imperialism.

[@ThunderAppeal]

OmFG how I wish more people would say that. In the 90s all the liberal loons who wanted to appear 'edgy' worshipped chomsky. It was maddening. Just plain fucking maddening. Hes just a fucking linguist, *not* a political scientist. Thats not to say that he shouldnt be allowed to speak about politics but he is so fucking off base on so many things its obscene.

[@kenbowser5622]

Found you guys about a month ago. I drive a semi truck so I have lotsa time to listen to people smarter than me in the hopes that I learn something. Not only do I learn but it also makes me a better person. Thanks guys, I appreciate you two.

[@jaidev777]

It's really such a pleasure listening to you both speak. I'm fortunate to have stumbled upon this channel.

[@Bebkins]

Titans of intellect, both!

[@amauryft]

I sincerely just LOVE these two guys and their convos! I am just very very thankful to God, yes you read it right, TO GOD, for them!

[@ruthregister3794]

Thankful that Glenn & John took on the work of reading Murray's book and made time to discuss it where we can hear them, as I'm not a scholar; however, I have more questions now than I did before...

[@honeybadger5933]

Over the past year listening to many many youtube talks from Glenn and John, Coleman, Brittany King, and several others, one of the main arguments I took away from the comments section was the amount of black people commenting along the lines of "others told me to stop acting white".... It was a common theme I picked up on. I applaud applaud you guys for bringing this up as nobody wanted to agree with me that it was a real thing either. The other item I picked up on was the amount of fear being taught to black children through the generations from the black community. THANK YOU THANK YOU I feel so much better after watching this that what I was sensing was real.

[@danaakon7633]

My Black friend Ester rejected Racial Determinism and became a Microbiologist. In contrast, her two brothers chose the criminal path. They had the same parents and the same upbringing.

[@TheNas45]

‘My White friend John stopped his nihilistic tendencies and became an astrophysicist. In contrast, his two brothers chose the criminal paths. They had the same parents and the same upbringing.’ I hope it makes sense to you all…yep!

[@maryagrusa9850]

Go Glenn. Please put that in print. Once again the two of you stretch me.

[@owensuppes1]

Thank you both, John and Glenn. You two gentlemen are bringing sanity to your world.

[@chachalongo4255]

For as brilliant as Glenn can be; he also says some of the stupidest things you could imagine. Glenn, stop it, you can expect Blacks in the inner-city engaged in the Drug War to avoid death and destruction just as much as you can expect the soldiers sent to IraQ to have conducted peace operations. Stop it, you cannot be that stupid. QED

[@owensuppes1]

@@chachalongo4255 Participating in the drug trade is a choice. We will probably agree that the drug war is a massive failure. Yes innocent people get caught up in the violence and the crime. And that is not their fault. But we have to promote the idea that people need to make better choices.

[@chachalongo4255]

​@@owensuppes1, you missed my point entirely, which was if you are a felon, something very easy to become in the ghetto, your choices for honest employment are limited. Can you say, "plea deal," which many Black males are forced into even when not guilty. My point was if the only commerce in the city is to engage in the Drug War, you can expect to kill or be killed. That is point one. Two, did you not hear Glenn argue that there is good argument that agency, choice, is not what the Shelby Steele's have been arguing for years; even though nobody, including me, has argued that people are not accountable for their acts, so cease and desist with the straw arguments, please. QED

[@owensuppes1]

@@chachalongo4255 I agree with your point. But I know we still have to challenge our young people to rise up. I grew up with a dead beat father, abuse in the house and stigma outside it. I made my choice to be better than my dad. To never abuse my daughter. I will never have to raise a hand on her. I rarely drink. After a hockey game mainly. I will never hit a woman. Seems like the bar is low. We should all know this stuff. Certain people gave me love. My Mom is my hero. My friends taught me how to be a man. We have to show our young people the way, give them love. And challenge them to achieve. That's half the battle. Now we have to encourage community economic development. We have to bring services back into communities. It's heavy lifting. But all the heavy lifting will just lead to heartache without challenging our kids.

[@chachalongo4255]

​@@owensuppes1, so the question is how likely is the probability that economic development will save Blacks? About zero, which explains why Glenn says some pretty stupid things because at bottom he knows and believes that the only people who will save Blacks are Blacks. The status quo will remain because it makes sense to stay on welfare. In Latin America where many are faced with much worse desperation than Blacks but with no welfare payments and food stamps, the poor there have to pickup and trek to the US. So, until the schools are upgraded and people are weaned off welfare, things will remain the same, unfortunately, while a few manage to get out and prosper, which only takes one generation, like my case. QED

[@retrojazzdanceandmore]

Glenn, wow. What an amazing analysis of predeterminism (based on genetics and history) vs. autonomy and free will.

[@mikegray8776]

Great dialogue guys - I’d been eagerly waiting for this one - and as always you didn’t disappoint. You two are - for me - THE watchword for fair, considered, analysis and debate on a wide range of topics and trends. You show what informed intellectual debate SHOULD be. More light, less heat. Thank you for what you consistently deliver. I am sure that many lives - mine included - are much enriched by your dialogues.

[@mounteverestoftheobvious1182]

"much enriched by your dialogues" -- that's certainly valuable, but is that the extent of your interest? Or would you like to be enriched AND see some progress made on these issues? I'm sure you would, but then how do you do that? I don't see anyone talking about that, so I've taken it upon myself: onevoicebecametwo.life/2021/07/02/two-sides-of-the-same-counterfeit-coin-part-12-a/

[@galaxytrio]

Glenn, if you can speak contemporaneously as beautifully and meaningfully as you do here, and in all the other videos I have watched of you, your muse is very much with you, and the effort required of you to evoke it to complete you book is trivial and just.

[@capoman1]

Loury speaks like Milton and David Friedman. He speaks fast, to the point, concise, and does not waste words... I find it so refreshing... John has the more typical wordy and slow paced academic speaking, as if the wordiness or poetic or drawn out paragraphs are part of a performance. Glenn's speaking is almost mathematical, direct, specific, lacking embellishment, and concrete.

[@Nirvana7734]

The way in which John & Glenn grapple with the data that has been brought forward by Charles Murray is exemplary. This is how you dissect such information without simply insulting the author and then dropping the mic.

[@Renwa82]

God, I love this podcast

[@odnilniloc]

Good food for the brain and soul. Thank you gentlemen

[@sickandtired6156]

In regards to Hannah's argument, its been answered: The Parable of the Pedestrian. In short there is no one but the individual who can move themselves beyond their own shortcomings, even if they are not at fault for the preconditions of failure.

[@Google_Censored_Commenter]

That's quite a naive take though. Your framing makes me assume you don't quite get the point being made. You say "their own shortcomings" and then you also say "even if they are not at fault" in the same sentence. See the contradiction there? They cannot both be true at the same time. The fact is, we don't have libertarian free will. All of our choices are being steered by the external world, molding us. From those facts you then have to argue about how much of it is determined, and how much room is left for you to make your own choices within that frame. It might be so, that someone who has a certain low base level of willpower due to their genetic disposition or whatever, and as a result will end up in less optimal situations in life. While yes, responding with "work to improve your willpower beyond your base level" is good advice. To assume that it's the only thing that can be done, is missing the point I just made above - that your level of willpower is molded by your circumstances as well. So yes there is an alternative, namely to ask for better circumstances. It doesn't have to be either or, you can advocate for both. But your current approach is to lay all the responsibility on the individual's willpower.

[@khemingw]

@@Google_Censored_Commenter We all have shortcomings sir but to say that just because they exist that therefore no one has any power of choice or will makes no sense as far as I'm concerned. Our will is reflective in the difference in the success or lack of success of all the nations throughout history. Especially where the history of slavery is concerned. At some point a worldwide institution was defeated because certain nations 'decided' at some point that it was evil and needed to be stopped. For the most part it has especially to the degree that it is in our time considered morally wrong by the majority of the world.

[@Google_Censored_Commenter]

@@khemingw It is not what I said, reread what I did say, and respond to that instead.

[@sickandtired6156]

You cut off the latter which gives the former context. Pre-conditions for failure means things like single motherhood, not finishing high school, not getting a job, not keeping a job. There is a case to made these preconditions for failure are amplified in the black community due to the legacy of slavery and discrimination. I dont think anyone seriously debates that. The Parable of the Pedestrian postulates though these injuries are not your fault, only you can cure them. In the essay the focus is on physical rehabilitation from a car accident. I find that a very good comparison on some level. So Sowell is the only relevant voice in the room as far as I'm concerned.

[@carlrandal9951]

Excellent and illuminating conversation. You two gentlemen gave me a lot to think about. Thanks!!

[@cconcannon5145]

I'm a middle class, middle aged, English white guy...now living in Australia....and I thank you both for giving me such a well rounded, well-intentioned insight into matters that I must admit I've paid too little attention to over recent years (work, parent etc) yet have become critical to Western society today. I've come to trust your methods, opinions and most of all your morals. Keep up the good work and for my part you've motivated me to engage better and re-start my reading.

[@slicersharp]

Thanks 🙏🏽 for the conversation i really appreciate it

[@GreenAsICanBe]

#GlennLouryforPresident

[@TheNas45]

White folks will not vote for him because he is not half white.

[@rollinginthedeep6900]

Every episode is incredibly, but John really knocked it out of the park today summarizing how victimhood becomes a way to easily process the world and self identity for many people. If it was a mentality endemic to a certain situation, if it was not a unique choice, then why would you see it in the middle class? Why would I see the same mentality in the communities around me (southeast asian, LGBT) who compared to someone in a crime-filled gang operated neighborhood have experienced so little "oppression?" Why would it be possible for people like Glenn and other prominent intellectuals to overcome the victim state, if it wasn't itself a state of mind? Keeping the victim mentality requires so much delegitimizing and outright rejection of the lived experiences of every "oppressed" person who speaks out against such a thing. Thank you John and Glenn for systematically unpacking these ideas every other week and never giving up on your audience or dumbing things down for us. I really shudder to think about what the future might bring but I hope it will be brighter as more and more people get educated by discussions like this.

[@brianberthiaume7930]

Glenn and John's intellect is an ocean.

[@mrridikilis]

That 'stay in your lane' adage by Jenee Desmond Harris is such a cliche. I once met a JiffyLube employee who had read Kant, Nietsche, and Kirkegaard....and was also an expert (no degree, mind you) in Greek Mythology and Literary Symbolism. Only someone who wants to gatekeep their discipline from scrutiny would ever say that those who don't have degrees in that field should be dismissed out of hand. People listen to Noam Chomsky about Geopolitics; he's neither political scientist nor politician. The whole notion is ridiculous!

[@megg.6651]

I wonder if she feels that LeBron James should "stay in his lane"....

[@fgIII89]

I have a paper due tomorrow but what's another hour and half of procrastination? Always excited for new uploads!

[@SvenErik_Lindstrom3]

Hope you can write as fast as John.

[@Malignus68]

lol

[@TheNas45]

Are you black?

[@fgIII89]

@@TheNas45 no. Why does that matter?

[@brad9092]

I always leave these conversations feeling like I need to do a better job with my homework! Thank you, gentlemen.

[@silkyjohnson3346]

I see "determinism" like spawning in a video game. If you happen to spawn at a point where there are more guns and resources, you have an obvious advantage. That being said, it doesn't mean that one should simply give up. Determination, skill, and fortitude all play a role.

[@billsimms2511]

Agree, genetics play a huge role in how we function physically and mentally. You can make up for shortcomings through dedication and strong work ethic .. just hope you aren’t low on IQ points, not athletic and a bit lazy lol Some folks do hit the genetic lottery though . They truly are privileged and blessed

[@chrisxavier1848]

Yes! BRILLIANT retort against the deterministic power of history!

[@m-2914]

Glenn I’m looking forward to reading the memoir!!!!

[@ancientfuture9690]

Me too. I'll be purchasing a copy the instant it's released.

[@TheNas45]

@@ancientfuture9690 Preaching to the choir is a way to reaffirming your biases.

[@chachalongo4255]

For as brilliant as Glenn can be; he also says some of the stupidest things you could imagine. Glenn, stop it, you can expect Blacks in the inner-city engaged in the Drug War to avoid death and destruction just as much as you can expect the soldiers sent to IraQ to have conducted peace operations. Stop it, you cannot be that stupid. QED

[@yvescoleman8586]

Don’t act white ? I have watched exactly the same attitude with North African or French kids with North African parents in France. Those who have good marks are ridiculed and sometimes even bullied by other pupils between 11 and 15 years old and denounced as “ass lickers” a French expression which is not very nice. So I think the questions you are discussing are not specially racial and American but linked to strong class differences and difficulties to climb the social scale when your parents are working class and of a foreign origin. And when you come from a country where high schools and universities are for the so-called elite. A West Indian rapper and writer witnessed the same thing in English schools

[@ancientfuture9690]

@@TheNas45 No. He speaks and those who are open to learning, do so. I disagreed with Glenn when I began first listening to him, but as time went on his arguments convinced me otherwise.

[@kenlucas7025]

I was threatened and hated on by the so-called brothas in a mixed race school. Why? Because I had the audacity to make the National Honor Society! Now top that!

[@glennmitchell9107]

White, and I suspect, Black students' disdain for scholastic achievement is mostly due to their parent's attitude toward education. Children's peers merely reinforce their parents' disregard.

[@paulamitchell880]

I think you're onto something. The vocabulary used and passed onto the children between those with various levels of education, or none at all, is a great big factor. Those IQ tests delve heavily into vocabulary, word associations, complex sentence/narrative comprehension, etc. So vocabulary/word knowledge is a make it/break it deal there.

[@glennmitchell9107]

@@paulamitchell880 In addition to the effect a person's vocabulary has on his attitude toward academic achievement, it also has an effect on his social class, and on how comfortable or uncomfortable he feels when outside his social class. Which is more significant to perceptions of class, a person's accent or his vocabulary?

[@npickard4218]

@@glennmitchell9107 So true. Social class often gets ignored in these conversations. Both Glenn and John are Americans (and so am I) and we Americans tend to be blind to social class and birddog race. I travel to England frequently and my English friends remind me that I am not thinking in terms of social class. I think social class has a lot to do with poverty, there is a culture aspect to one's social class and people often hate to leave their comfort zone.

[@paulamitchell880]

@@glennmitchell9107 Great discussion. I do think that vocabulary plays the larger role. Classism is not a big thing in the US because your station is not determined by your birth but by how much you take advantage of the educational/work privileges provided by living in the US. My family are immigrants, came from what most would consider "low class" or peasantry. However it took less than a generation to achieve "upper-middle class" status. Mostly granted by education, mind you. I know it is not so easy, maybe impossible, to move classes in other parts of the globe. The sense of community or familial supports played a big role in achievement for the whole family, for sure.

[@gabedargis]

I worked at a warehouse doing a night shift for several years. It was in the "inner" city as what people would call it and local to a large black population. Many of the black employees I had said that they would get picked on if they ever pursued something that was intellectual in nature.

[@m.chumakov1033]

Matches what Brandon Tatum tells about his childhood.

[@gabedargis]

@@m.chumakov1033 important to remember a lot of the members of the intellectual class don’t exactly grow up in the hood or poverty. NHJ and Kendi were in Davenport and Christian private schools respectively. A lot of the people who attend Howard University for instance already come from actually decent neighborhoods since they likely have educated parents.

[@TheNas45]

@@m.chumakov1033 I know a lot of white folks who don’t even know the Capital city of Texas; who thinks that Africa is a country. Anti-intellectualism is as American as apple pie.

[@jdankerdake]

As to which voices are the “real” ones worthy of listening to - it’s beneficial to be open to all voices, and then make up your own mind.

[@dumpsterdiver2069]

Thank you fellas! You make my day everytime one of your chats show up! Our country NEEDS this type of honest racial talk! 💪

[@kmaidotia]

This was a good one, I like the fact that they refer to books they have read esp Glenn on books he read like 30 yrs ago. Well read people they are.

[@Muck006]

Books arent everything ... especially when they are written only in the last few decades ... because "the problem" requires a look at the "organisation of society" in three phases ... medieval Europe, the Enlightenment and post-French Revolution ... and you will see that society went from ... EMOTIONAL CONTROL (a religion is "an ideology based upon EMOTIONAL CLAIMS which can neither be proven nor disproven) to LOGIC and REASONING allowing for SCIENCE and FAIR/EQUAL LAWS ... and we are now back on track to have EMOTIONAL CLAIMS take over again. This is why we MUST NOT give any grounds to the lefties!

[@calmon-ground962]

Thank you both for this thoughtful discussion.

[@EBM4545]

Thanks guys for interesting discussions!

[@brianberthiaume7930]

Please write that down as that was a powerful line of thought and off the cuff it seems , that was such a great point he made.

[@hejiranyc]

It's so refreshing to hear honest talk about issues based on data points, facts and critical analysis rather than inane liberal handwringing regarding the optics of race.

[@lynettepolewka2775]

I agree Glenn's Aria was beautiful. I look forward to seeing it in print.

[@eoinhogan152]

love the Dostevsky insight

[@asandh1asandh194]

Wow! You are both so interesting. I loved hearing your thoughts and ideas. I was riveted to your entire conversation and look forward to delving deeper into your works.

[@leftybelle7022]

Thank you both for yet another enlightening conversation.

[@jjroseknows777]

If you say anything besides, "It's not our fault." you're the devil" Amazing observation; so true.

[@npickard4218]

So true. I'm a classroom teacher and I'm white so all I can say is, "That's horrible, you know it's not your fault, right?" Actually I don't believe that so I say nothing. If I make any attempt to ascribe agency then I get called into the office and sometimes get a letter in my file. If I get enough letters in my file, I get terminated. So the district has groomed teachers *never* to recognize free agency. The white kids are all oppressors and the non-white kids are always the oppressed and God help a white teacher who dares to speak in a nuanced way. Simple binary thinking is rule of the day, no more nuanced thought or critical thinking skills. It's almost a rebranding of Calvinism.

[@jjroseknows777]

@@npickard4218 Why throw in Calvin...that really clouds the water?!

[@npickard4218]

@@jjroseknows777 Isn't it obvious to you that there is a pre-determinism going on here? If you don't make the connection then just ignore Calvin.

[@jimcarey3852]

I can listen to you gentlemen all day long. You're great!

[@richardsandals785]

God, I love these guys!

[@johnhansen8272]

I love listening to your podcast, thank you both for your wisdom. I enjoy it so much and more importantly I learn a lot which I need.

[@uffishPooh]

Scots/Irish legacy includes its own exposure to slavery. The significance of slavery in American history seems to be that it was largely imposed on people yanked from Africa. It's almost as if slavery of black folks in America was bad and slavery of other groups was... sort of inconvenient? I'm kinda dim and words are hard. Am I way off base here though?

[@davegold]

The topic seems like a complete red herring in every aspect. Just because two groups show some similar behaviors it does not mean there is a cultural connection. Even if they are connected the default hypothesis should be that American black culture took aspects of American white culture after American white culture had taken those aspects from Scots and Irish immigrants.

[@npickard4218]

Pooh, I agree with you.

[@thermalreboot]

If you have a degree from any university earned after 2000 you don't have the scholarly chops to opine on anything. Universities have been completely hollowed out.

[@megg.6651]

You are saying this to 2 college professors.....

[@thermalreboot]

@@megg.6651 Yup. And they may actually agree with me. Lefty's are all about appeal to authority. That's why they're all about credential even if the credentials are worthless.

[@mounteverestoftheobvious1182]

@@thermalreboot Let's put your scholarly chops to the test: onevoicebecametwo.life/2021/07/02/two-sides-of-the-same-counterfeit-coin-part-12-a/

[@thermalreboot]

@@mounteverestoftheobvious1182 Juat another appeal to authority. Only the "experts" get an opinion right? Jackass.

[@mounteverestoftheobvious1182]

@@thermalreboot You had 60 seconds to show me you're worth my time. Time's up. Good day.

[@johanswede8200]

Drove from Stockholm to Le Lot river i central France...Twice vaccinated I am allowed. Backwater France...On my way to Antibes for a 3 week stay...With me comes Glenn and John. I am happy! Love from a regular listener!!!

[@phoenixkirchoff5268]

Love listening to you both discuss. Thanks for the mind food!!!

[@alphatech1031]

great as always, but on another note.... I wouldn't use John McWhorter as a benchmark author. For anyone who hasn't read McWhorter, I strongly recommend him. Not just for his substance, but for his vernacular and style which both carry a unique element. McWhorter is able to convey complex topics in coherent and tasteful form, that is truly a joy to read.

[@PhilMoskowitz]

I've suffered too many an insufferable conversation with my white liberals friends who categorically believe that childhood poverty is insurmountable. That anyone born in poverty is fated for a lifelong mandated sentence of poverty. Yet I, by siblings, my childhood friends and schoolmates all for the most part escaped poverty with almost no effort at all. All it took was getting a steady job. For that you can thank the free enterprise system. I'm afraid that white liberals would rather believe that blacks are forever bounded to poverty, than to admit that capitalism has ushered in a black middle class which greatly outnumbers the black poverty class.

[@palermotrapani9067]

And I think you are on to something, because the White Secular Liberals think they and their socialist and in some case, Marxist ideology, with them running the Systems is the only way for the Society to be structured. So individual Black Americans can't ever succeed, they can only if the White Liberals put in structures to help them. I have said for years, the secular White Liberals and their political systems are the biggest threat to America.

[@coolhandluke9783]

Holy hell. That bit from 13:30 to 19:30.....*slow clap...tear rolls down left cheek*

[@AZWings]

Great conversation. Thanks gentlemen. Ironically, John says to get out of our guts and into our heads, but the proceeds to let his gut take over. It's just so hard to look at Murray's work dipassionately.

[@TheOrdener]

All of this “outside your lane” stuff, whether on the basis or race or academic training, is just a mixture of ad hominem and red herring. What’s the value of the argument? Is it an accurate recognition of reality or not? I’m really worried that these “outside your lane” arguments aren’t laughed out of the room.

[@owensuppes1]

I think the question is important, "but is she right?" Is John right? Ultimately we want to subject opinions to the highest resolution analysis. Typically we want to insert the scientific method here.

[@Platinum1812]

It is simply appeal to authority. One of the classic logical fallacies.

[@UndrState]

And , by implication , appeal to authority . Someone is right or they're not right , be they janitor or rocket scientist

[@owensuppes1]

@@Platinum1812 right. Ideas are best assessed on merit.

[@nealorr5086]

@@Platinum1812 It's worse than that, it's an appeal to authority, because you cannot defeat the actual argument.

[@bigdbob7929]

Glenn is the top

[@GambitYuGiOh]

This conversation was amazing. Continue to love the show each week. One of my big points of contention with this episode would be that "Acting white" is not a phenomenon in black only spaces. I went to an all black school (99.9%) and it was very much widespread. I spent the majority of my scholastic career being #1 or #2 academically. My peers and I definitely were called "white"

[@gabrielhorth]

Always brilliant and nuanced commentary. These talks are beyond interesting, for anyone who thinks that "INOF" is not enough. Keep the conversation going

[@deborahnewsome7013]

As usual, great conversation. Keep up the good work, men.

[@Muck006]

"Writing stuff down" is sometimes easy ... but the really really REALLY HARD PART is "re-reading it and fixing the little problems" ... and also "connecting the little bits of ideas into a connected narrative".

[@nddst77]

John McWhorter is my favorite guest too! :D

[@yclept9]

Positive take on intellectual hierarchy is given in The Peter Principle (you're promoted until you reach a position where you're incompetent). Peter says a happy few avoid it by avoiding promotion once they find a job they like and are good at. Being at the right end of the curve of success is not the happiest goal to have.

[@dichebach]

That WAS an aria! :) ADDIT: Wow you are both on fire in this segment. Heroic commentary. ADDIT2: I would have loved the opportunity to educate Professor Murray about developmental psychology when I was still in academia. That is the fundamental problem in his work; he has no idea about the how and why behind the patterns he observes.

[@DavidAnderson-yt3bv]

Victimhood may meet underlying psychological needs, but it's popular mainly because it works. It frees up resources.

[@MrGrimmzen]

I was raised by a silent generation father. His philosophy: a man whose word cannot be trusted is nothing. Never take away anything you can't give back. If you don't work you don't eat. Never speak negatively about a man behind his back. If you owe it pay it, if you cannot; discuss it with the man who is owed before it is due. If a man dies owning a debt his sons must pay it.

[@brianberthiaume7930]

These two men are men who possess superior minds for sure.

[@drandrewm]

Aaron Hanna's essay in Quillette is excellent!!! One of the best I've read in a long time.

[@sandrasmith6963]

Plz send it to the TIMES...LOVE IT😊😊...LOVE U GUYS.

[@johanswede8200]

Why, am I, a white upper middle class Swedish guy, on my way to The French Riviera listening to Glenn & John...😘 I know...shouldn't have mentioned "upper"...WTF...I am travelling straight through Covid-Madness...I am happy! And my two favorite intellectualls travells with me...Sorry...I been trying the local wine...Sleep Tight!

[@guntguardian3771]

I guess in relation to what John was saying about Murray's book the question is: How do we react to this? It's fair enough to say that Murray's solution doesn't cut the mustard from your perspective, but ultimately we either try to correct it - either by forcing diversity, or changing the root cause - or we live with it. All of these solutions have problems, some may even be impossible - but clearly how we are operating as things stand is not stable.

[@JamesDavis-ek5sq]

"Scots Irish." From split infinitives to this, JM's attention to linguistic detail never lets me down.

[@npickard4218]

Hi James, I don't understand your reference. Does John not split his infinitives? (I do it all the time even though I know I'm not supposed to. It's the register I grew up with in my region of the country.)

[@JamesDavis-ek5sq]

@@npickard4218 I just happened to read his latest bit in The Atlantic yesterday and noticed a point where he seemed to be making a clear effort not to split an infinitive. If I recall correctly the edict against split infinitives has been removed, but a few of us hard liners just can't let down our guard. Maybe I'm projecting.

[@npickard4218]

@@JamesDavis-ek5sq Good for you. It's difficult to avoid infinitive splitting. I'm a linguist by training but a high school teacher by profession and I speak standard, formal English in class though I sometimes split infinitives and sometimes end sentences with a preposition. However, when I'm not in front of my classes, I like to speak in my regional dialect and I come from a working class area. You can say I'm bidialectal ... although I can do a pretty good Receive Pronunciation when I go to England so I may be tri-dialectal. I think all of this language "stuff" is very fun. This is what I like about John, he enjoys it too. I am currently reading his book about the Nasty Words. His writing is usually very sober but his book on Nasty Words is really hilarious. Have you read it yet?

[@Vic2point0]

I don't think we should assume the message is "Just accept it". It could just as easily be "The kinds of things we've been doing to change it aren't working".