Religion without Gods? Can You be a RELIGIOUS ATHEIST? | Atheopaganism & Religious Naturalism

[@tulasivaibhavi4246]

ive always never felt connected to the rest of the witch community due to my lack of belief in a literal, tangible energy/spirits/gods. This channel makes me feel seen! tysm! ive always wondered how i couldnt believe in tangible metaphysics but yet my spiritual practice helps me out!

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

If you use reddit, I'd recommend checking out r/SASSWitches--it's a community full of like-minded people :)

[@OriginalFallofMind]

Yea that would be difficult. Lol Same with my spirituality because half are strange people that just want to be different and the other side is way to structured and authoritive.

[@KayleyWhalen]

This really spoke to me. I started as an atheist, then secular humanist, then secular Buddhist, but in the last few years have found paganism speaks the most to me! I love the idea of honoring nature through ritual, and seeing Gods as aspects of nature and human beings which I can honor without supernatural belief

[@amberbydreamsart5467]

literally just searched 'athiest neopagans' on yt and this is what came up towards the top, and was absolutely what i was looking for- i'm very not spiritual minded but i've been to some circles with my sister's neopagan group and really love the feel of it- i've been wanting to start getting into neopagan stuff as a way to both motivate me to deepen my understanding of religious history, and give much-needed structure to my self-reflection via ritual, but a lot of beginnner witchy/neopagan stuff goes too directly to the spirit stuff i don't really believe in so it's been hard to find a starting in--- doesn't help that i'm stuck moved back in with my parents due to pandemic, who would be extremely frightened to find me engaging with any sort of witchcraft thanks so much for the video, i'll definitely check out more of your channel!!

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

Awesome, I’m so glad you found it helpful! The non-theistic neopagan community is definitely growing, and it’s wonderful! I’d recommend checking out Aine Orga’s channel on here as well, as she’s also a naturalistic Pagan. And Sedna Woo on here is an atheist witch with great content for practicing witchcraft without the “woo”. I also have a post on my blog (obscureclouds.com) with more recommendations for non-theistic Pagans and “skeptical” witchcraft resources, if you’re interested :) best of luck as you start your journey with this! It can definitely be a super fulfilling spiritual path, even without any belief in the supernatural!

[@amberbydreamsart5467]

@@theskepticalwitch6611 thank you so much!! i'll definitely check those out!

[@katattack907]

Thanks for the resources!

[@exoplanet11]

Atheopaganism ... that's a new one to me.

[@rachelhouldridge9191]

This is exactly what I was looking for! I've been enjoying exploring pagan traditions and have started to incorporate some rituals into my life, but as an atheist I wasn't completely comfortable claiming the label of pagan. Thanks for giving me the vocabulary/resources to learn more about it!

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

I'm glad my video was helpful for you! :) If you haven't already, I'd recommend checking out Mark Green's book Atheopaganism (or his blog of the same name). He also has a Facebook group (Atheopaganism) full of like-minded people who are interested in Paganism, but aren't necessarily theistic.

[@markgreen6018]

Great video and thanks for the shout-out!

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

I’m glad you enjoyed it! And of course, I can’t talk about Atheopaganism without mentioning you! :)

[@markgreen6018]

@@theskepticalwitch6611 I'm excited about your PhD! It'll be great for the naturalistic Paganism movement to have a dissertation published about us. Be sure to let me know if I can help.

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

@@markgreen6018 thanks so much! I appreciate that! I was planning to reach out to you once I had the research proposal solidified a bit more :)

[@badatpseudoscience]

Excellent video. It really broadened my prospective. I have been identifying myself as a humanist. I never saw it in that prospective before. THANKS!!

[@AngelusWrightPrinze]

As I don't believe in deities outside of myself and see God and Goddess as archetypes of myself, I believe that all is Divine. As a Pantheist Naturalism Pagan, I believe in the spiritual realm, but it is all around and within me. I had Christians thought I was atheist and I can see I may be a little Athestic now.... Interesting video.

[@fenrirsilver6441]

I found myself on this channel despite very much not being the target audience lol, simply because I was having a conversation with a coworker of mine which didn't know there were atheists who still had a highly "spiritual" life, conflating atheist with the belief that no supernatural, dieties, or the like is true, when atheism merely talks of a lack of deities instead. I brought up specifically Buddhism and Wicca, admittedly I probably should have said Neopagan, Atheopaganism, or Paganism instead of Wicca, as that may(?) have been more accurate, but this seems to be a decently common phenomina where they conflate the spiritual with the supernatural or deities when they are two different lines of thought which just happen to align. Interesting video, and helpful in the future.

[@GalaxyGirl_-gf7hq]

Wow, I didn’t expect to relate so much to this! I’ll definitely research this more, maybe I’ll decide I’m an atheopagan/naturalist one day.

[@victwria07s]

what a INCREDIBLE and AMAZING channel! :)

[@katattack907]

THANK YOU for this video!! I got involved in a pagan community a few years ago but never really knew how I fit in given my lack of polytheism. I think my working label is panentheistic naturalist pagan (rolls right off the tongue). It's so encouraging to know that there are others like me. I'm going to check out some atheopagan practices and keep looking for more pan/panentheistic pagan resources too. Blessed be! 🌿

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

I’m glad the video was helpful for you! I 100% recommend checking out Aine Orga on KZbin-she’s a pantheistic naturalist pagan and really helped me articulate my beliefs/stance when I was first venturing into the world of Paganism 😊

[@RhettTheDungeonMaster]

I didn’t realize this is what I lean towards until I stumbled on it. I’m very spiritual but at the same time very logical.

[@roberttravers7587]

Great video!😁

[@coldblu357]

Thankyou so much for this video. Definately hit the nail on the hear for me. I’ve bn an atheist most my life but recently found myself drawn to the Atheopaganist idea. I love the way you broke down all the definitions of similar ideas and thought. I’m subscribed and love ur channel. Thankyou❤ 22:12

[@SilentSong123]

That's why Im.extremely interested in pop culture and art witchcraft no beliefs needed really

[@the-999-asmr-tarot-art-show]

I think you can be atheist in a more ancient way. At one time, disbelief in one set of gods, but not another was considered atheism. I think you can be a spiritual being on your own spiritual path and at the same time be an atheist to world religions.

[@peregrinepack9585]

I believe that gods and spirits 'exist' conceptually in the way that fictional characters 'exist'. Like, they don't have to exist literally and physically in order to feed our sense of inspiration and creativity. I'd say that gods don't create humans - humans create gods. It's hard to say whether or not that view is atheist. It's almost more Jungian than anything else.

[@zelimamata]

Exactly, I also use the therm Jungian to describe myself, although I see me as agnostic pagan atheist.

[@OriginalFallofMind]

Probably doesn't make any more sense if you break it down but I'll use the word spiritual or spirituality if I'm not referring to an actual god or deity. Religion is usually used in a structured belief system.

[@magnolianight2537]

I've been looking for a voice like yours. I also desire the spiritual and cultural structure, but have not been comfortable in the pagan community due to my belief of diety as a symbol. Thank you for your channel. I would be interested in hearing a discussion comparing the pagan community that appears to be mainly online vs the community available for the more mainstream (Abrahamic, Hindu, Buddhism, etc) religions. Do you see a path towards temples and sacred spaces being established and what could these spaces look like given the immense diversity of the pagan community?

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

Thanks very much for your comment, and really interesting question. You’re right the Pagan community is quite diverse, which makes it difficult to establish spaces like temples or churches. However, in terms of sacred spaces in general for Pagans, these can already be found in places like holistic wellness centres and metaphysical shops-a lot of places like these are gathering places where pagans conduct rituals and have community get togethers. So even though they aren’t just sacred spaces, they do fill that need for many members of the community. But it would be interesting to see if there are specific Pagan temples established in the future!

[@katattack907]

The group I'm involved with used to have a garden for their meeting place. Since losing that space, they're meeting in public parks until they have access to a private space again.

[@MMG-q1v]

I am not an a-theist. I am not any kind of theist. I am not an a-astrologist either. I have not thought about any supernatural being in decades. I do not understand why anyone would start their search for meaning there.

[@darthszarych5588]

Thank you for this. I am an atheopagan. This is pretty much accurate

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

That’s great, I’m glad I got things right! Thank you!

[@martinspear8928]

I really wish we had more resources out there for Atheopagans. It get's lonely out here in the world. Wish we had an Ocean Keltoi

[@anitamolnar3365]

I am so glad I found you, finally somebody summarized, what the heck is happening in me: I am also a religious naturalist, and still, yes, I am a pagan, because I also believe in nature itself, I adore nature, I celebrate the cycle of nature, I believe in energies in nature. However I believe in ghosts, spirits, magic, so I have some kind of supernatural belief, but I don't believe in gods or goddesses. I love to read about mythology (especially nordic mythology), but that's it. Thank you so much for this video, really!

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

I'm glad the video resonated with you! It's always great to connect with like-minded people :)

[@matthewsteele5229]

Thank you! I didn’t have words for what I believe, but I was a Satanist that also liked Luciferianism, and I told myself that if I could believe in a god, I’d be a polytheist. Turns out I’m an atheopagan with a satanic mythic framework. Your video gave me the affirmation I needed, and kinda gave me back religion after I thought the best I could get was imitation. So thank you

[@ByronBreese]

Your work is excellent and I'm hearing new things that broaden my knowledge. If I may, though, Paul Tillich; his name is pronounced "TIL-ik" or if one is Swabian, perhaps "TIL-ish," never "Tilch." The credibility of scholars does, for better or worse, stand on names being spoken well and correctly in public. Again, I find what you are doing very progressive and helpful.

[@zoefay2358]

I would love to hear more about what pantheism means for you! I'm also a skeptical witch, up until very recently I called myself an atheist but now I think another label might fit me better...not sure which one though and it seems like my views align with yours quite a bit. Love your content!

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

I think being an atheist and being a pantheist don't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive... I guess I consider myself a "non-theistic" pantheist, since I don't believe in God(s) per say, but I do think there is something sacred about our world :) and thank you!

[@thegreneknight]

Great video. I’m an Atheist but I am feeling that urge for ritual and ceremony so I’m trying to find a spot for me. I had never heard of atheist pagans but I’ll look into it. I’m a male but I’m also researching Satanism

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

If you’re interested in ritual then Atheopaganism might be a great place to look... also the Satanic Temple. Hope you find something that works for you! 😊

[@rafaelmoretti403]

Hi, I am new here. I love Wicca, but I was Buddhist for 13 years... Make no mistake, there is no difference between believing in God or the Dharmakaya, Saints or Bodhisattvas, heaven/hell or the six realms.

[@Mercutiossword]

If you are unconvinced that God exists you are an athiest

[@bandottarjo5409]

I think, religion means a way to submit. Using that definition we can include buddhism. As somebody always worships something (not necessary divine Being), for somebody who doesnt believe in the existence of divine Being, whatever they worship/submit is/are their god(s). So, thats how we can say that atheism doesnt real. Everybody has religion, but it doesnt mean following the major religion. They can make their own religion. Which gives me a question: what doest pagan mean? What kind of character does make somebody pagan? (i really thought a pagan was somebody who worshiped odin :O ) And here is the interesting thought about magic. In today era, many of us dont understand the different between technology and magic. How many percent of people know of how a cell phone work? how a computer work? How youtube work? I feel like, calling out siri is just like reciting a spell o,O The deeper example ll be the subliminal thing. Subliminal is such a science. But most people re using it just like magic. So afterall i believe magic is just such an unknown/uncharted science. Some day a very advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Being religious and being scientifically minded definitely can work. That is true. As muslim yeah, islam encourages us to seek knowledge. Afterall many things in the quran has been proven by modern science. Like, how the heaven and the earth were joined together, how life came from water, how the burned skin can not feel the pain, how the sun and stars revolve just like the moon, etc. But it doesnt mean being religious and having scientific mind always work for every religion. Many religions out there re definitely contradicting science.

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

Interesting definition of religion as submission to something greater than ourselves... I think that definitely works for a lot of religions, even those that wouldn't necessarily be considered "religion" by some (such as consumerism, for example, and submission to capitalist systems). One thing I'm learning in my religious studies program is that the definition of religion can be extremely broad, and almost anything can be considered a religion. To answer your question, contemporary Paganism (Neopaganism) is an umbrella term for a range of religions and spiritual practices, including things like Wicca, Druidry, Heathenry, as well as more eclectic forms of Paganism. So while some Pagans worship Norse gods like Odin (Heathens, for instance), not all do. Most Pagans are polytheists, but they may also be monotheists, duotheists, animists, pantheists, or atheists, among other things. Pagans generally centre their practice around honouring the natural world, but not all do. You make a really good point about advanced technologies being like magic, in the sense that magic is related to the mysterious and the unknown. But I guess the difference is that there are people who can explain how technologies like Siri work, whereas there is no objective explanation for magic. Although you're right, I think if we were to encounter a futuristic technology that we didn't understand, we might think it was magic. Thanks for your thought-provoking comment!

[@bandottarjo5409]

@@theskepticalwitch6611 despite im still confused by the definition of pagan. Most major religions have spiritual practices, no? Does it make em pagan? In islam, 5 times daily prayer is kinda our spiritual practice. Im not sure how honoring the natural world works here. But a muslim has to take care the nature as well. Thats how they honor the nature world. But if you meant the unseen natural world. Well, muslims also believe the existence of jinn. Muslims dont pee whereever they want, cause there might be a jinn there. Well, in that sense, lighting and fire were such a magic 1000 years ago. Since nobody knew how those two worked scientifically. And yeah, we are the the futuristic people for the people 1000 years ago. We have the futuristic technology for the people 1000 years ago. And my pleasure :)

[@indykatley10317]

Very interesting video, thank you very much. When you say that religion meets lots of human needs, do you refer to spiritualism as well? Or for you being spiritual and religious are one and the same thing? Also, what are the differnces between atheopaganism and spiritual naturalism? Thanks in advance xx

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

Do you mean spiritualism as in the specific religious movement, or just spirituality in general? Because generally the distinctions we make between spirituality and religion are arbitrary, and I don’t necessarily think there’s a definitely divide between these two categories. Or at least, they’re very fluid categories that resist definitive descriptions. So yeah I’m also saying spirituality meets a lot of human needs here. Atheopaganism is a kind of spiritual naturalism, but it’s a specific religious movement with its own teachings, practices and values, whereas religious naturalism more generally is more of a spiritual attunement... it’s more so up to individuals to determine what it means for them.

[@ThePathOfEudaimonia]

I see myself as a Spiritual (or Religious) Naturalist/Pantheist.

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

I don’t remember if I say as much in this video, but me as well! A Religious Naturalist Pantheistic Pagan... quite a mouthful haha

[@AbdurRehman-uy8vp]

@@theskepticalwitch6611 isnt a naturalist pagan inherently impossible?

[@ricardonascimento9461]

I miss you CCCP!

[@atheistechoes474]

Real interested in Hellenism mainly in regards to.the muses

[@Hhjik98]

I made a religion for me Just for cultural tradition.

[@zelimamata]

Fine, I consider myself and agnostic pagan atheist or at least a pagan atheist, there are people that consider agnostic as a kind of atheist, so that's why I say these two. My base is Nordic with influences of Japanese (Bushido) and Old Greece, my practice is based on sword martial art, exercises, meditations and glossolalia (which, in my case, is a talent or ability that came from the sexual act), I build my own way and I've built part of it yet. And you, what do you think of agnostic x atheist???

[@victwria07s]

can you make a video about deities as metaphors?

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

Yes that's a video I'd definitely like to make at some point!

[@sockpuppetqueen]

I'm sure, since you study religions, you probably also know about this, but Judaism also does not require a belief in the divine. Like, you literally can fulfill every single commandment without any belief in any gods- the first commandment is just "thou shalt have no other gods before me", not "thou shalt believe that I'm real", and really none of the rest of them are concerned with beliefs- only practices. You can believe whatever, but you'd better be leaving the corners of your field un-harvested for passing orphans and widows. Some of the laws wind up being pretty arbitrary without the assumption that there's divine will behind them, but the rituals and community building can be their own motivation, you know? My boyfriend's family's rabbi said that, by the way, it isn't some crazy wild interpretation- like, it's an uncommon but halachically justifiable position. I'm Jewish, an atheist, and... vaaaguely observant? and I just think that that's such a cool topic. Obviously this isn't like... the majority view, pretty sure most observant jews do believe in god, but just from my personal experience, I know so many atheist jews of all ages, including a couple who are VERY religiously observant, in a really similar way to how you're describing atheistic paganism- they feel connected to the community and the ritual and the practice, and that's plenty, without any belief in the supernatural. Plus we've got the whole ethno-religion thing going on, though that's less relevant to the discussion about religious atheism. Idk, this is a KZbin comment that I'm writing on my phone and can only see like five lines of at a time, so I don't know if I expressed myself clearly at all, or really what my point is, besides, like... same hat! Atheist jews and atheist pagans, same hat. This is a really neat topic, I'm hyped to see it, you know, being discussed.

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

Thanks for your comment, that’s super interesting! I’ve heard of atheist Christians before, which seems counter-intuitive or even impossible, but like you said for some it’s really more about ritual practice and community. So it’s fascinating that there are atheist Jews as well, and that a rabbi would acknowledge it too! It is a really cool area to be exploring... the fact that people like you and other atheists who practice religion exist really makes us question what we assume religion to mean.

[@sockpuppetqueen]

@@theskepticalwitch6611 @The Skeptical Witch yeah! And for atheist jews it's even less counter-intuitive, since belief is not actually one of the really emphasized parts of our practice, whereas with Christianity, you get a whole lot of, you know, salvation through faith and all that. I know there's a lotta catholics more in the Jewish boat though, where they'll go to mass and stuff, the ritual parts of their religion, without actually believing in any divine requirement to do so. I don't wanna assume what you do or don't already know, cause like, if you're in grad school studying religions I assume you do know a lot! But also yeah check out the history of Jewish atheism and the debates around it, there's actually quite a lot of it, it's not like a new thing. Feels silly recommending Wikipedia, actually, but they've got an article that really concisely lists the relevant players and events, historically, so it's a really good place to just, you know, get an overview to start, in case you'd want to dive deeper later, academically. Just cause I bet you'd find it interesting, since it sounds like it's kinda what you're studying, or at least related. And yeah my boyfriend's grandma went right up to their rabbi, like, years ago, all ready for a fight, like "is it a problem for me to be an atheist and also jewish?" And then the rabbi was just like "nah, you're cool" and explained the logic, and then she went on to continue to be super active in her synagogue community and celebrate shabbat every week til she died a couple years ago. It was like, her whole social group. She was super rad, and also, their rabbi was super rad. Buncha rad old people, busting through stereotypes and living their lives, lol.

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

Haha that’s awesome, your boyfriend’s grandma sounds like a really cool person. I think that’s great she could still find such a good community and probably a lot of fulfillment through the church without getting called out or anything for not believing in God. And thanks for the recommendation! Jewish atheism is actually not something I’d thought about or read about at all before, but it’s really interesting! I’m glad you’ve pointed this out to me, it’s going to be a fascinating world to explore!

[@magnolianight2537]

@Socks what you are describing is orthopraxy rather than orthodoxy. Orthopraxy is correct behavior, while orthodoxy is correct belief. You are right about there being a lot of Christians who practice orthopraxy. I think that is actually a strong feature in many religions because of the cultural implications of religion. For most of us, the religion you were raised in is the religion you identify with because of the shared symbolism and rules, even if you don't believe. That seems to be changing here in America, though. There is a generational exodus from the Christian faith to neo-pagan ones. In previous generations,leaving a faith made you an outcast within your community. Now, there are endless communities to join.

[@martinspear8928]

@@theskepticalwitch6611 Rabbi's don't just acknowledge it there are actually many atheist Rabbi's. In fact let me point you to Secular Synagogue. Atheo-Judaism has a long history but really took off with the establishment of Reform Judaism. Atheo-Christianity has grown with the introduction of Jordan Peterson on the world stage. He himself is an Atheo-Christian so that would make sense. Then there is the little admitted public fact that a huge number of Christian church leaders are Atheist. And I am not just referring to Progressive Christians. The makeup of almost every Christian Seminary in the US is: Freshmen: 95% Theist Sophomore: 50% Theist Junior: 75% atheist Senior 95% atheist. If someone survives to their senior year they have so pretzeled their definition of god to mean pantheism that you cannot reasonably call them a theist anymore. If you have any questions feel free to ask as this is of particular interest to me. And I am going to beg you please don't get lost in the ivory tower. We need more scholars doing work with the real world presenting their idea's to the public not just hoarding information like a dragon guarding the nest.

[@comeasyouare4545]

I think Buddhism could be considered spiritualistic atheism. Whether atheism could be classified as a religion under that definition is a stretch. Atheist fellowships are a strange brew. Since the only hold one thing in common. Not much to really bring people together. The two main draws for fellowship seem to be either political, or religious convictions. While we use science to define reality. It is limited to our comprehension. Saying that there is something outside of our comprehension is self defeating. Nature is in fact what we should give credit to.

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

I’m not saying that atheism itself is a religion-I don’t think it is. I’m just saying that there can be religious atheists from a perspective where religion is based on praxis, symbolic systems, and spiritual transformation rather than belief in supernatural beings. And atheist churches are largely geared towards developing a sense of community, so there can be that element as well. And I agree, science is limited to what we understand, but many religions are based on looking beyond empirical comprehension for answers. This is the big difference between more traditional religions and religious perspectives based on humanism or naturalism.

[@comeasyouare4545]

@@theskepticalwitch6611 Looking beyond empirical comprehension for answers is impossible in definition. Both humanism and naturalism look no farther then the self. They tend to deal with it through introspection . Whereas most religious belief is from outside. A placebo for the lack of knowledge. It works only because they believe it works. If you believe you'll be ok works in that moment. I know I kind of got off track there, but no matter what, or how you believe the overall wellbeing of reality as a whole should be the goal.

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

@@comeasyouare4545 I agree a lot of humanistic/naturalistic religiosity is based on introspection and personal experience, but there’s also a lot that comes from empirical evidence and a scientific understanding of reality. The kind of awe and wonder that comes from learning about things like the Big Bang, or the incredible structures of DNA, for example-these kinds of things can be sources for spiritual inspiration and reverence. No religion is entirely internal or psychological. I do also agree that a lot of religiosity is akin to a placebo, but just because something is a placebo doesn’t mean it doesn’t have real and meaningful effects. Religion and peoples’ responses to religion are incredibly complex, socially/culturally and psychologically. But yes I do think overall well-being is always an important goal 😊

[@comeasyouare4545]

@@theskepticalwitch6611 I think no matter what is believed we all stand in awe, and wonderment of reality. It's how we deal with that. Belief in itself has to be strong in order for our actions be attributed to their effect. In other words we have to believe our belief actually works. I do believe the cultural importance of religion outweighs its negative aspects. That is personal belief. The negative aspect is religion as government. Which most religions mandate.

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

@@comeasyouare4545 yes definitely, I think there’s a lot of horrible things that have resulted from organized religion and an overly dogmatic approach to religion. But it’s also had a positive impact in many people’s lives as well. It’s definitely not a black and white topic!

[@americanliberal09]

2:13 hmmmmmmm......Except for the fact that religion is a social organization that has a unified system of beliefs, and practices that recognizes the sacred. So, therefore, religion is much more of a communal-based thing, not vice-versa. Let me tell you something. When is the last time that you'll ever see jews, christians, and muslims practice their religion all by themselves? Religion is never really a personal thing that you do on your own. You do with a group that shares the exact same beliefs as you are. And, this is what irks me so much when some people really think that believing in god makes you religious. When in fact that there are "non-theistic religions" that do exist. What religions actually have are rituals, traditions, culture, and customs. Religion is a lot more complicated than just believing in the divine.

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

Yes I agree religion is much more complex than believing in the divine. But the social/communal aspect of religion is also only one part of it, or one way of defining religion. Religion can most definitely be a personal thing that someone practices on their own. Whereas some older sociological definitions of religion focused primarily on the social/organized aspects of religion, more recent definitions take into account the fact that it can be individualistic, and entirely personal. It’s generally recognized now that definitions of religion that only consider the social and communal aspects are limited, and not always helpful for understanding religion as it is actually lived in its many, many varieties.

[@americanliberal09]

@@theskepticalwitch6611 *Religion can most definitely be a personal thing that someone practices on their own.* If that's even the case. Then wouldn't be a religion. It'll be just a spiritual experience that you do on your own. *more recent definitions take into account the fact that it can be individualistic, and entirely personal.* That's because some of those authors of those definitions tend to be very biased toward monotheistic religions such as "christianity". So, therefore, they tend to make up these poorly constructed definitions in order to make as if believing in supernatural things makes you religious. So do you understand my point?

[@katattack907]

@@americanliberal09 It sounds like you're saying that spirituality only counts as religion if it's practiced in a social, institutional context. But then how do new religions form? If someone has been practicing their spirituality for years before there's enough of a local community to worship communally, at what point is their practice "religious?" What counts as religion can also be a political issue, as "religious" beliefs are protected in certain ways that "spiritual" beliefs are not. But if someone is the only Wicca in a small town, they can't necessarily worship communally, at least not regularly in person. Does that mean they're not practicing religion? I think The Skeptical Witch is pointing out that there are cases where the definition of religion you're using isn't helpful because it's too limited to accurately describe what's happening in the world.

[@americanliberal09]

@@katattack907 *It sounds like you're saying that spirituality only counts as religion if it's practiced in a social, institutional context.* Yeah. It's a fact that it is. So what? *If someone has been practicing their spirituality for years before there's enough of a local community to worship communally, at what point is their practice "religious?"* Then it just wouldn't be. It'll just be spirituality as it is. *But if someone is the only Wicca in a small town, they can't necessarily worship communally, at least not regularly in person. Does that mean they're not practicing religion?* Then it's not really a religion. *I think The Skeptical Witch is pointing out that there are cases where the definition of religion you're using isn't helpful because it's too limited to accurately describe what's happening in the world.* Or how about the fact that the definition that she uses isn't really 100% accurate, either. Because religion is not really a individual thing. It's usually often comprise of a group. So why do you seriously think that religions often have conversions?

[@americanliberal09]

@@katattack907 *It sounds like you're saying that spirituality only counts as religion if it's practiced in a social, institutional context.* Yeah. It's a fact that it is. So what? *If someone has been practicing their spirituality for years before there's enough of a local community to worship communally, at what point is their practice "religious?"* Then it just wouldn't be. It'll just be spirituality as it is. *But if someone is the only Wicca in a small town, they can't necessarily worship communally, at least not regularly in person. Does that mean they're not practicing religion?* Then it's not really a religion. *I think The Skeptical Witch is pointing out that there are cases where the definition of religion you're using isn't helpful because it's too limited to accurately describe what's happening in the world.* Or how about the fact that the definition that she uses isn't really 100% accurate, either. Because religion is not really a individual thing. It's usually often comprise of a group. So why do you seriously think that religions often have conversions?

[@Giganfan2k1]

The gods are just foci for our intent.

[@patriklindholm7576]

Woo is woo, with a god involved or not.

[@tarno_bejo_]

Everyone is religious since everyone worships/submits something. Its not necessary god. It can be money, political power, fame, fashion, woman, celebrity, etc.

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

True, that’s a good point. Consumerism especially has often been compared to a religion... And I think the argument definitely can be made that as more traditional forms of religion start to lose the power they once had, we find religion elsewhere, in areas of life that would usually be considered “mundane” or secular.

[@tarno_bejo_]

@@theskepticalwitch6611 Well, in that sense, there wont be any secularity then.

[@fbibarbie]

submitting to something doesn't really make it a religion. Though it is complex since religion definition is very difficult to define and is not actually agreed on.

[@tarno_bejo_]

@@fbibarbie Atleast from oxford dictionary. It offers 3 definitions of religion. One of em is "a particular interest or influence that is very important in your life" From cambridge dictionary, it also mentions: "an activity that someone is extremely enthusiastic about and does regularly" When you submit to something, it makes that as something very important in your life. Obviously it makes you enthusiastic, since you ll be doing it regularly. Therefore atleast from these two big english dictionaries, you re having a religion.

[@fbibarbie]

@@tarno_bejo_ the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. Those alternatives are mostly slang the main thought is God's or at least some form of super human power. Few would really consider being fond of mundane things reilgious.

[@maxpayne3628]

This is not possible. Atheism entails materialism, and it's impossible to have first person subjective Experience (consciousness) in an Atheistic materialistic world, that's why so many atheists don't believe in free will, because that's what their worldview entails and infact from an Philosophical perspective, a materialistic atheistic world can't give spirtuality, it just can't. And Skepticism is extremely overrated, Skepticism is not good for an society overall, while Academic Skepticism is an good mental exercise. And this idea that religion is cultural, as an way to undermine religion is just absurd, like what do you expect Religion to be when an supernatural entity exists? Problem with these sociological explanations is that most of the times, they're mostly unfalsifiable , like atleast you can look at claims of Islam and Christianity and try to falsify them whereas these explanations of Religion as culture (and many times, these things are wrong for example Islam actually has no official symbol, like it doesn't have any official symbol) are presupposing Naturalism.

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

The fact that there *are* religious and spiritual atheists kind of disproves your point. You can be an atheist without being a complete materialist-a lot of atheists are materialists, but not all of them. Atheism just means a lack of belief in gods. As someone who is doing a doctoral degree focusing on religious atheism, I can tell you that this phenomenon does exist, and is recognized within the academic world. “Religion” and “atheism” are fraught and contested terms, and there are various definitions of them, but it is widely acknowledged that atheism does not automatically mean non-religious, it just means non-theistic. With the definition of religion we use now, there is no belief in the supernatural or deities required, and religion can be based primarily on practice, rather than belief. Religious atheists differ from non-religious atheists in that they derive some kind of meaning or value from the material world, and often have a sense of spiritual reverence for it. But there are many different ways of being a religious atheist, just as there are many different ways of being a religious theist. And I don’t really understand your last point... the definitions of religion as a widespread socio-cultural phenomenon are different from the truth claims and teachings of any given religion. We can acknowledge that religions are systems of symbols, practices and meanings (even if they don’t have “official” symbols, they have a variety of symbols) that shape how people orient themselves to the world without necessarily having to agree with the things they teach about reality. But whether a religious orientation or practice is “real” or not doesn’t depend on whether it’s claims can be contested and falsified... even scientific claims can be contested and proven wrong, so I’m not sure what your point is.

[@maxpayne3628]

@@theskepticalwitch6611 Atheists could be themselves spiritual. But I'm saying atheism entails materialism and Determinism. And Atheism is defined as the belief that God doesn't exist, you should know that this is the actual definition, as you're in Academia. Every Encyclopedia, even online standard Philosophy Encyclopedia defines it like that. I'm sorry but American Atheists aren't an authority on definition of Atheism, Atheist and Theist Philosophers Of Religion are and they will say that atheism means God doesn't exist and Theism means God exists. Atheism and Theism are answers to the Question 'Does God exist?'. Atheism entails Naturalism, Materialism and Determinism, that's why Atheists are determinist. Of course, I agree religion shouldn't be defined as an deity worship. But we fail to realise that worshipping doesn't always mean prostrating and praying to Something. Even following some guy with great devotion can be regarded as worshipping. But if an atheist is trying to being spiritual, then it's very difficult for him to endorse Materialism. I understand your point on religion as an culture, I understand and I apologise, I thought you were using this as somehow an argument against Religion. But then again, I have heard that many Muslim Philosophers, scientists in the Islamic world feel that westerns bring their metaphysics into their broad idea of society etc etc.

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

@@maxpayne3628 I think we mostly agree on our definitions of atheism in that atheism is opposed to theism, and therefore means that atheists don’t believe in gods. But atheism doesn’t necessitate determinism or materialism. Many atheists may be determinists and materialists, but not all are. Also new materialism is a kind of materialistic worldview, but one that can be very spiritual. Even definitions of and ideas around materialism have changed a lot over the past decades. I’m not trying to make any arguments against religion, just trying to say it’s definition goes beyond theism. And yes I agree western ideas about things have most certainly been applied to different religions and cultures in ways that don’t always make sense for them. Religion itself is a western term that originated predominantly with Christianity, so many people question whether religion should be applied to non-western or non-Abrahamic traditions, or if maybe we need different terms. Also western ideas of science have definitely seen themselves as being the only “truly scientific” paradigm, but other cultures have different approaches to science that I think also need to be considered valid in their own right. It’s a complicated issue for sure!

[@maxpayne3628]

@@theskepticalwitch6611 I'm not saying what atheists are. I'm saying what Atheism (the belief that God doesn't exist) entails materialism, physicalism and Determinism from an Philosophical perspective. If you accept spirtuality, then you accept that not everything can be explained from an third person perspective. Infact, spirtuality in itself is an very good Argument for Theism itself. But I just don't see why atheists/agnostic would be spiritual, because if they're, then they accept that there is something outside the material world, that materialistic life can't satisfy us, hence making Naturalism and materialism very unlikely and atleast naturalism and materialism are Something which is not possible in Theism but is most likely possible to be true in Atheism, but spirtuality and spiritual experience is an very strong Argument against physicalism and materialism and hence, Atheism. If atheists are being spiritual, then they should not just look at paganism but other Religions like Christianity, Islam, maybe Perennial Philosophy etc etc. BTW Do you study non-Christian religions?

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

Where does this idea that an atheist philosophy necessarily has to be materialistic and deterministic come from? Because I’ve never heard that before-atheism is really just a lack of belief in gods, which doesn’t automatically lead to determinism or even materialism. Spirituality can also be entirely separate from theism. One can be spiritual, believing that there is some greater value and meaning in this world, without believing in gods or anything supernatural. Religious naturalists are spiritual in the sense that they find awe and wonder in the material world that they deem worthy of reverence. This doesn’t mean that they believe in “something more” beyond the material world, but rather that they think the material world in and of itself is sacred. And plenty of spiritual atheists do have backgrounds in a variety of religious traditions, usually not paganism. I’m in a religious studies program so I study all religions, but my focus is on paganism and atheist religion.

[@jakemichael8586]

religions of old wear atheistic!

[@meghansmith7884]

Now im not sure anymore, seeing u may change my mind of existence of our Creator. There has to be God if u were his children, i mean damn, ur stunning as fudge ahhaha. Yeah im weird i know hahah....Meow

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

Hahaha aww thanks 😊 😂

[@meghansmith7884]

@@theskepticalwitch6611 Seriously thou, ur beyond the true beauties of nature, perhaps from outta separate different dimension space tht haven't discovered yet.😘✌♈🐈....Purrrrrrrrrrrrr

[@meghansmith7884]

@@theskepticalwitch6611 Can i call u phoenix hehehe....Licks

[@meghansmith7884]

@@theskepticalwitch6611 Ummm Yeah, for some reason i keep coming back here and staring at u. Maybe u r a witch hahaha....Meeeeoooow

[@theskepticalwitch6611]

Hahaha thanks 😂

[@carlosfernandez6754]

Religion is a fact because it comes from God............are the rest are just beliefs, theory, weird guesses, and thinking lead astray from the god of this world, The devil.

[@josephang9927]

Ultra cringe