Repertoire: The BEST and WORST Elgar Second Symphony

Boy has this work suffered from some remarkably bad recordings. In this video, I explain what to avoid, and also which versions realize the music in all of its emotional diversity and splendor.
Score Examples can be found on IMSLP.
Musical Examples courtesy of Naxos Records.

[@jonathanadkins5738]

Thanks for this, Dave, in particular for the point about the percussion not dimming too soon. The excerpt you played was tremendously powerful.

[@ianpunter4486]

30 + years ago, working in LA, (Brit), I took myself off to hear Barenboim conduct Elgar 2 with the LAPO. An afternoon performance with a particularly wrinkly, blue-rinse audience. All I remember of the occasion, is the elderly lady next to me commenting to her companion "My God, this modern music!"

[@powerliftingcentaur]

That was wonderful. Tomorrow morning with coffee: Elgar’s 2nd. It’s been a while.

[@jimryon1002]

I love these videos, thank you so much Dave.

[@omenpol]

Amazing content David, love your energy and knowledge c:

[@Wolfcrag85]

I'm glad you mentioned Downes' version on Naxos. I also happen to have its "companion": George Hurst conducting the first symphony.

[@allthisuselessbeauty-kr7]

I like the Hurst version of No1 very much too (even though I think Mackerras LSO on Argo is finer). Very underated conductor. He did a version of Holst's The Planets with the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra that's worth hearing.

[@paulwgibson]

We did this with James Judd last year. He did a great job of showing us our way in a work that is rarely played stateside. He hasn't recorded it yet to my knowledge. I had the LSO Davis recording as my reference, but enjoyed the music enough to also pick up the Slatkin Box and a Boult. Thanks as always for a entertaining discussion! Cheers.

[@allthisuselessbeauty-kr7]

I really have a lot of time for Judd. His recording with a youth orchestra of Mahler's 9th (on Regis), put some professional ones to shame. Equally his Florida Mahler 1 (on Harmonia Mundi) is a beautifully prepared performance and has a freshness of approach which is very compelling. That reminds me I need to listen to that again - thanks!

[@tomgauterin1723]

James Judd recorded a superlative Elgar 1 with the Halle back in the 1990s - on a very cheap label. I'm sure you can get a secondhand copy for only a few pounds.

[@spqr369]

Yes Slatkin! It's a Win Win! The recording does full justice to the performance.

[@johnmorrissey46]

Really loved your recommendation of the Slatkin. I’ve tried to get into this work a few times before and own the Davies LSO but still found what a friend of mine told me about it to be true. He said just imagine him composing it marching about on the Malvern Hills.I just thought that’s maybe why I find it so exhausting to listen to ! It’s just a really lovely performance and for once I didn’t feel like I had enough for a bit before the slow movement even starts. I really like your ethos that if it’s not on the CD then you’re not interested. There are an awful lot of myths and stories you hear about conductors and performers and then you listen to them And you think I don’t like what I’m hearing. Classical music is like wine just cause you’re paying the most doesn’t mean you’re getting the best. So I really enjoy you cutting through the record company hype!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thank you.

[@neilford99]

This is so true. I think it's why having objective, unbiased criticism is so helpful. (Some) Us British are so quick to assume our people are better than everyone else, a notion of pure conceit and stupidity. Don't get me started on Nigel Kennedy's Elgar concerto recordings ...

[@Plantagenet1956]

Thank you again for talking about Elgar! I think this has to be one of my favourite of British symphonies.I’ll have to seek out the Mackerras and Slatkin. I have Vernon Handley’s,Barenboim’s (which. I particularly like, because it brings an in an Un-British look!) but it looks like those two, Mackerras and Slatkin are up for order!

[@martinhaub2602]

I love this symphony and deeply regret it is so rarely played in the USA. This great music is strong enough to withstand many interpretive views and I rather like Sinopoli, Thomson, and even Haitink as well as many others. Tate, Menuhin, Previn...they're all wonderful in their own way.

[@peterdonnellan5497]

Martin Haub good to mention Tate - he and the LSO capture that percussion sequence in the third movement wonderfully.

[@WolfGratz]

@@peterdonnellan5497 I absolutely agree on Tate in particular. I do however think David had a point on the specific rejections. And it is notable btw that I don't own Barbirolli's recordings of either Symphony.

[@sansumida]

Yep deeply moving all the way through, an Eflat masterpiece response to Schumann's 3rd "Rhenish" Symphony. I bought the Sinopoli and being on the DG label trusted it, and like the sound and indulgent aspects. Also got the Menuhin with the Philharmonia set but this was underwhelming. Boult is my go to especially his wartime 1944 recording, the Adagio is sublime😀 So when can we hear comparisons of Elgar 3?😅

[@phaasch]

@@sansumida Agree wholeheartedly about Boult's 1944 version. The whole piece has a genuinely visceral charge to it, and the first time I played the rondo, the climax was almost physically shocking. It still is, even when you know what's coming. It's difficult to follow that, when, like me, it was my introduction to the symphony.

[@AlexMadorsky]

I absolutely love the Downes BBC Phil recording. The Slatkin is wonderful too. I’m working my way through the Mackerras Liverpool Beethoven cycle and loving it, so I can’t wait to dig into this Decca recording.

[@TheCastlepoet]

Ut-oh, Dave! That's set the cat among the pigeons! I was waiting for you to mention Barbirolli, and sure enough, you didn't disappoint. Half your subscribers will be demanding a duel at dawn. For what it's worth, I love JB's E2,warts and all--the 1954 mono recording as well as the 1964 stereo. But I'll give you a pass on him this time. Ditto Sir Adrian. All that said, I agree with you about Slatkin's excellence. Thanks for mentioning Elgar's own recording too. In addition to the finished recording itself, the rehearsal excerpts are fascinating. (The complete Elgar box is essential listening for obsessive-compulsive Elgarians on either side of the Pond.) Meanwhile, In the category "there's no accounting for taste," I must confess that I enjoy Svetlanov's recording, if only as a "party" piece. But what a party! No doubt you also enjoy the filler on the cd, Svetlanov's recording of Sea Pictures, sung in Russian by Mrs S. And when you tackle The Dream of Gerontius, don't overlook Svetlanov's performance -- a one-of-a-kind Anglo-Soviet collaboration.) Is there any truth to the rumor that Karajan, late in his life, took an interest in the Elgar 2nd, studied the score, and wanted to record the work? We can only imagine how Karajan's take on it would have sounded--it easily could have fallen into the Sinopoli/ Thomson/ Haitink category or surprised us by being at the Solti/ Slatkin end of the spectrum. Thanks for another stimulating talk. ~ J.D.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

You're welcome. I actually usually prefer mono Barbirolli to his stereo remakes--he was livelier and more alert.

[@patrickhows1482]

According to Charles Osborne in his Karajan biography he did look at the score of no 2.

[@davesmusictank1]

I picked up the Mackerras version today on Argo for a pound in a charity shop unplayed. It is really good and so thanks again for your wonderful videos. I also totally agree as to why this failed to be taken more notice of.

[@neilford99]

I think you are safe buying any and every Mackerras recording you can get. I've never heard a dud yet. The guy was a genius. My biggest regret is not going to more of his concerts when I lived in Edinburgh or here in London.

[@AaronProctor-ed3jl]

Its frustrating that there is so much baggage surrounding Elgar! All the rubbish about Empire etc. is best ignored and just enjoy the music! Im so pleased you rate Leonard Slatkin so highly, I do too and he is wonderful in English music

[@barrygray8903]

Thanks again for a perceptive, comprehensive discussion. I have always personally preferred the Elgar 1 to Elgar 2. Several years ago I got the Slatkin/LPO recording of Elgar 2 and did not feel a need to buy other versions until the Davis/LSO was released to highly favorable reviews (one from you, if memory serves).Both are really outstanding. I intend to check out Solti/LPO (I rather like his Elgar 1)and also Mackerras/RPO. I have heard the Handley/LPO performance (had it on LP) and it is very good, let down technically by a mediocre recording. We have heeded warnings to avoid the Sinopoli, Haitink, and Thomson versions of Elgar 2. It would have been fascinating to hear Bernstein conduct this work. Oh well....

[@ThreadBomb]

I think Solti's 2 is not nearly as good as 1. Mackerras does the Solti approach much more successfully.

[@RichardLarkham-l4b]

Thanks for your appraisal. I love the Solti and the Mackerras and, for a laugh, the Sinopoli! How about doing the same for Elgar 1, please? I dare you to find the best-EVER recording? (I know - and it's a trad conductor doing a live performance (The Proms) which is breathtaking, astonishing, blow-your-mind... even converting those who aren't convinced by Elgar 1!)

[@seanoslin5299]

I have one of the stereo versions of Boult. The climax in the third movement is one of my all-time favorite musical moments. It IS the climax of the piece. I’m excited to hear Slatkin and Mackerras.

[@davidhollingsworth1847]

Also, what makes Slatkin's album so good and special is the use of the organ towards the end of the symphony (like in Handley's album with the London Philharmonic).

[@charlesedwards5302]

Very interesting and sharp-eared as ever David! Thank you for these astonishing videos and your endlessly informative opinions - even when controversial. Now, as a terrible un-reconstructed Fan of the 'British Sirs' (actually the only one I really care about is John Barbirolli - it's not an umbrella obsession, thankfully) you probably can tell that I beg to differ in a typically understated way with your opinion of Barbirolli's Hallé Elgar 2. It is the recording which made me fall for the symphony and then buy nearly all the other CDs to compare it with, and for me he still comes out tops, despite considered admiration of your recommended versions. A question though - your fabulous analysis of the piece doesn't mention the Second Movement, which for me is the kernel of the piece. For me the climax of the whole symphony is towards the end of the movement, and no one does that like Sir John and his ragged old band of Mancunians. Try at about 30 mins (into the whole symphony) on his Hallé disc, if you can get over JB's groans and the orchestral playing - I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as you find, but maybe I'm deaf. I'd be interested to hear your feelings about this movement in the other recordings. For me this nearly breaks my heart so emotional and intense is the music making.....

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Fair enough. Can't argue with your personal reaction, and I think it's just great that you are so moved by that performance.

[@charlesedwards5302]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I love all personal opinions. That's why we keep on listening. And we need to blow a hole in the received Great Grey Gramophone Magazine who (often) act like God, especially for us poor little island Brits! Elgar 2 is one of those pieces which just kills me every time. I heard Pappano do it in London a couple of years ago and it was actually the first time I heard it live. Jeez Louise... amazing. It says something about the end of an era in Britain and since 2016 we are thinking a lot about that....

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@charlesedwards5302 Which annoyed me very considerably. I hate cheap imitations.

[@michaelshort7472]

I have to agree with Dave's evaluation of the Barbirolli/Halle recording. I got the LP in the mid 1970s, and getting past the performance and the conducting was difficult. But I was still able to appreciate the great music that was being played. I had it in a box set that included the music from his Falstaff. That performance (not the music itself) was better than the Symphony in this case.

[@leslieackerman4189]

Happy that the “horror” section of the third movement is shared. On that, the Tate recording was a revelation.

[@andyok3625]

Oh. I love this symphony. My heart is a little broken that it is called a tossed off just d'esprit at the beginning.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Tell your heart to acquire a sense of humor, and I guarantee it will feel better!

[@WolfGratz]

Be that as it may the substantive comments are reliable though i like Boult, Solti and indeed Tate just as much as the recommendations.

[@applin121]

So pleased Slatkin’s recording is up there…he opened my eyes to Elgar’s symphonies with these recordings.

[@elgar1957]

Slatkin was awarded the Elgar Society Medal for his promotion of Sir. Edward Elgar’s music. Boult was one of the founders of the Elgar Society and I discovered Elgar due to Boult’s recordings.

[@davidhayden5602]

Did you know this wasn't well received in 1911. Elgar said to a friend, "what's a matter with this bill. They sit there like a lot of stuffed pigs". A great work. Could you do cockney overture?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, I knew it didn’t go over well.

[@ScotPeacock]

Hi David, I want to thank you for opening up a world of music to me, hitherto closed off by the doors of prejudice. As a Scot, I couldn't listen to Elgar. One whiff of 'Land of Hope and Glory' and I'd be reaching for my Claymore! I'm much more of a Vaughan Williams man. I always felt he was the music of England's landscape and soul, whereas Elgar felt to me like the music of Britain and the establishment. However, after this review of the Second, I thought I'd give Elgar a proper try, so I bought Solti's acclaimed recordings, and tonight I listened to the First. Oh, my giddy aunt. What music! This is wonderful, wonderful stuff. I am so sorry I neglected this work. It's passionate, sweeping, cinematic, achingly heartfelt, and Solti plays it to the max. He has his usual energy, but he also slows it down when the music needs it, unusual for him. There is real love and enjoyment here. He is absolutely on top form. I've also acquired and listened to Mackerras's Second and James Judd with the Hallé in the First (I've had this for years but never listened to it.) Do you know the Judd recording? It's a committed performance and well recorded. Thanks, again.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

So glad the music "hit" you this time around! Another reason to "keep on listening," I suppose. I don't know the Judd, but thanks for mentioning it.

[@ThreadBomb]

Poor Elgar has been a victim of his "establishment" reputation and overly-indulgent performances. The actual music is very personal and passionate (the major works, anyway).

[@phblinn]

I've always classified the theme you show from 6:59 as the "Sea Hunt" section. ;)

[@denishinds3777]

Great recommendations & steer clear of's. - Can I suggest throwing Halle/Elder (Own Label) & Royal Liverpool PO/Petrenko (Onyx) in too - for consideration.

[@neaklaus52]

How about a video discussing the First Symphony? I have Two recordings The Marriner,ASMF on Alto, and Menuhin, RPO on Virgin Classics.

[@joewebb1983]

Some really good recommendations there David. Previn is a notable absentee though. I think his Elgar 2 is rather good... The first movement isn't as good as some of the best recordings but the other three movements are very good indeed. The slow movement isn't overdone, the third movement climax is powerful, and the finale is superb. I actually quite like his Elgar 1 with the RPO, the momentum is good throughout and there is some wonderful phrasing as you'd expect from Previn. The slower return of the main theme in the finale from 6:14 building up to the climax is wonderful.

[@nicholasjschlosser1724]

One of my favorites, and a wonderful overview as always. I agree with your take on the finale; I tend to find a sure sign of a bad performance is if the conductor takes more than 15 minutes to get through it.

[@MichaSchlechtriem]

I love the Handley/LPO recording for CFS/EMI.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Excellent performance, but very tubby sonics.

[@MichaSchlechtriem]

@@DavesClassicalGuide On your Hifi.Not on my british one with Spendor speakers.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@MichaSchlechtriem British speakers are tubby too, so you won't notice the subfusc engineering, but no matter, as long as you like it!

[@MichaSchlechtriem]

@@DavesClassicalGuide You just don't know what kind of High End I have.And you don't know very much things.But your chanell is amusing after all.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@davecook8378 I'll tell tubby. He'll be offended.

[@stewartrussell1951]

As a great lover of Sir Edward Elgar's music I own several versions of nearly all of his compositions, including box sets his own performances of his works acoustically and electrically. I have found for my taste, the performances of Boult and Barbirolli to be amongst my favorite versions. I think Mark Elder's interpretations are excellent for someone who didn't know Elgar like Boult and Barbirolli. Not being educated musically, I have relied on my personal affections for Elgar and his music, and like you, I absolutely hate a poor performance of his works. Since my introduction to Elgar in the late 70s with a Great Performances' label album featuring the Enigma Variations (my favorite), and the Pomp and Circumstance Marches, I realize that the sound quality of many recordings are limited to the technology at the time of the recordings. However the performances and passion for his works stands out most for me regardless of the piece. Thank you for this most enlightening video regarding one of my favorite composer's, finest works! I hope you will have more on Elgar. My compliments.

[@ianbarbarafry575]

PLEASE do The Dream of Gerontius!

[@antonywingham9077]

Really did not know that the Halle Orchestra was considered second rate, but then what do I know with my only recording of the 2nd symphony with the Halle under James Loughran

[@RModillo]

Solti was interesting for borrowing much of Elgar's own style. There is a fascinating broadcast with Barbirolli and the Boston Symphony (1964).

[@williamkeller5176]

Yes Jerrold Northrop Moore (born New Jersey) occasionally came out with odd assertions but he remains solid most of the time. He was as I’m sure you know the first curator of the Yale Historical Sound Recordings Collection in Sterling and held a weekly public seminar using recordings from the collection. He viewed his role there as a teacher, really not that dissimilar from your own (styles differ). Possibly you were there after Moore, when these weekly group sessions did not occur (classes and individuals could schedule listening). I viewed your piece on Ives Three Places and learned you were at Yale. Thanks!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I did research there at the School of Music for my first Master's and spend my teenage years at Hopkins Grammar which was in New Haven and I spend a lot of time at Yale, but I was never a student there.

[@violadamore2-bu2ch]

Your understated British humor is hilarious.

[@murraylow4523]

Very stimulating review. I am interested in how many comments indicate difficulties in “tuning in” to this work and I confess I’m one of those. It’s my fault, not Elgar’s, of course. Maybe it’s because I’m Scottish and have trouble with the more culty English Tory aspects of Elgar appreciation. I’m not sure I’ll immediately buy another recording but I have a live one with Previn and the Concertgebouw which might just be counter cultural enough to help me reconsider!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No, it's Elgar's fault. It's OK to blame the composer. His job is to entertain YOU, and if he doesn't he has failed to some degree. All composers fail to the extent that no one can be 100% pleasing to all listeners. Eventually the music my strike your fancy, but the time and place are your prerogative. Listener's rights, my man! Always!

[@murraylow4523]

Thanks Dave and thanks for giving me permission, as they say, for disliking it. I couldn’t even get through the second movement I found it so boring. When you consider what other music was going on at the exactly same time, I have nothing against him personally, but surely he’s one of the most overrated composers ever. Imperial zenith etc, and I don’t know how you feel about this but there’s plenty to go around with the sub John Adams works coming out of the US in the last 20 years (and even Adams, who might be the US equivalent of Mr Elgar wrote some truly dreadful things). So we all need to own up to it!

[@johnpetley-jones9563]

You bad boy for ignoring the great Vernon (Tod) Handley's magnificent Elgar! (Though I totally agree about the superb Mackerras, Downes and Solti recordings.) And for what? Slatkin's superficial skate through it? Incidentally, his Elgar 1 also missed the point for me; I had occasion to take a critic to task once, concerning the trio of the scherzo, where Elgar exhorted his orchestra to "play it like something you hear down by the river". Rather than linger by the riverside, Slatkin roars past in a Greyhound bus! Despite this, I do like your provocative and entertainingly informative reviews!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No one is easier to ignore than Handley. I am very happy with my recommendation of Slatkin.

[@johnpetley-jones9563]

Ouch! Oh dear! Dare I say ignorance would appear to be bliss? No hard feelings.

[@paulgodman7939]

Great review. One thing that is important in some recordings is the optional (Written by Boult??) organ part at the climax of the last movement. It is very telling (just 32 foot pedal stops) in Handley's wondeful recording.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, but it's not important anywhere. It lasts like two seconds and I really think we shouldn't make an issue out of these tiny details, especially when they are not the work of the composer.

[@tomgauterin1723]

I agree it's no big deal but actually this addition *is* the work of the composer. Elgar added 32'or 64' pedals in these few bars when conducting the work in a cathedral. It's often thought to have been Boult's idea but Boult himself clearly said that he merely wrote down what Elgar's practice was.

[@patrickhows1482]

Thank you for an stimulating review of Elgar 2, I like the Mackerras the very much, but I strongly disagreed with some of your opinions, but as the French say 'chacun son gout' and it would be a dull world if we all liked the same things. Perhaps you could follow up with on the Elgar no 1, which has one of the most beautiful slow movements ever written and is a wonderfully rich and complex late romantic work.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Possibly. I think the slow movement is pretty boring, but a great performance redeems it. As you say, "to each his own."

[@smudger671]

It's one of the best slow movements in any symphony IMO.@@DavesClassicalGuide

[@KazuyiaMishima]

Great video 👌 keep up the great work 👍

[@neilford99]

I’m with you re Mackerras. Loved both 1 & 2. Did Mackerras ever make a bad recording? Maybe one day you’ll review his Delius box. The best Sea Drift ever!

[@powerliftingcentaur]

I’ll try to check out the Sea Drift.

[@morrigambist]

I've always enjoyed Solti for the Elgar-style tempos. One interesting oint: While both Boult performances are fine, the Lyrita, despite the less clear sound, has a beautiful "fireworks rocket" at the end of the first movement - very exciting.

[@stuartdbanks]

Sadly he has totally overlooked the best version of all of them or perhaps it was not available at the time of his evaluation, however it is Sir Mark Elder with the Halle Orchestra, a recording beyond superb.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I haven't overlooked anything. It's a thoroughly mediocre performance. www.classicstoday.com/review/review-10963/?search=1

[@stuartdbanks]

@@DavesClassicalGuide .Perhaps it is just down to personal choice - & I still prefer Elders rendition as I do of Howells performance in 2012 of Elgar's 1st symphony at the BBC proms, which as far as I am aware is not available on CD.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@stuartdbanks Well, of course it's a question of personal choice, except when I review the discs in question, in which case it's entirely a matter of objective fact.

[@stuartdbanks]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I think I had what is called - a Senior moment - when talking about Elgar's 1st symphony, the conductor on this occasion was Martyn Brabbins of course.

[@ThreadBomb]

I was sure you were going to overlook Mackerras, but it was right up there! For me, he does the Solti approach more successfully than Solti in this symphony. Solti's 1 is great, but by comparison 2 sounds unprepared, unidiomatic and even scrappy in its playing. I had that Slatkin box years ago and it didn't make a great impression. My main recollection is the sound lacked warmth.

[@iptych]

Loving your videos! Do you have any opinion on the Richard Hickox BBC National Orchestra of Wales recording of this on Chandos?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

See my original review here: www.classicstoday.com/review/review-11953/?search=1

[@smudger671]

I've heard it, and IMO it's mediocre.

[@beigelbdriver]

Barbirolli also made an earlier recording (in mono) of this symphony, which I really like.

[@patrickhows1482]

Yes, the 1954 Barbirolli recording is very good, preferable to the 1960s version.

[@olivernunn3675]

Yes, it's much better than his stereo remake. My own favourite will always be Boult's 1st recording, from 1944.

[@robkeeleycomposer]

I love the March of the Mogul Emperors. The Nautch Dance is pretty good too

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, there's nothing like a good Nautch.

[@therealdealblues]

Not a work I feel I need to hear often but I do have a few of those mentioned but the only one I listen to anymore is Slatkin. Once I discovered that one I didn't see much reason to search elsewhere. I might pickup that Mackerras though just to supplement for my occasional Elgar listening.

[@MarauderOSU]

Yes! I had to do a search for this video, but I found it. I own the Solti performances and love them. (Take that, English purists!)

[@violadamore2-bu2ch]

The first example you played has a Tristan quality.

[@jedidog3615]

Any thoughts on Elgar's Falstaff? The only recording I've listened to thus far is Andrew Davis' recent recording with the BBC Phil.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

It doesn't thrill me. I keep trying.

[@jedidog3615]

@@DavesClassicalGuide The recording, or the composition? Hehehe.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@jedidog3615 The composition!

[@johnmontanari6857]

Which do you think is the most profound English chamber work -- the Chanson de matin or the Salut d'amour? And which claret would you serve with them -- the Lynch-Bages or the Léoville-Barton (not that I could afford either)?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I don't drink. As for the first question, that's easy: Ketelby's Second Viola Duo.

[@johnmontanari6857]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Ahah! Nonetheless, you win my Robert M. Parker, Jr. Music Critic Award for the critic who gives the least damn about anything except how the music sounds. digital.nepr.net/music/2012/11/26/kind-critic-classical-music-could-use/

[@tomgauterin1723]

Leoville Barton. It's a better wine and costs less!

[@PM_ME_MESSIAEN_PICS]

britten's blake songs

[@paulpellay3755]

Well, dang! And there I was, putting my money on the trombone & double bass duo. Heigh ho........... Will have to hunt down the Mogul March, then. I think there's an old Lenny recording of that lying around....................

[@AlexMadorsky]

Lenny did the Variations with the Crown of India Suite for DG. Affordable and excellent on vinyl and CD.

[@robkeeleycomposer]

It’s fabulous! And in 3/4 time. You can almost hear (and see) the braying elephants!

[@allthisuselessbeauty-kr7]

I happened, after this review, to be browsing the only copy of a Penguin Stereo Record Guide (2nd Edition) I retain from the mid-seventies, and it threw up a few points I thought interesting. As I hope is clear from previous posts, I'm no apologist for the often suspect quality of British review standards as enshrined in Gramophone and the like, but what is interesting looking at my battered copy of PSRG, they were not that far off the critical mark at that time. So for example with regard to the Elgar 2nd Solti and Boult got glowing reviews, but it was very critical of Barbirolli"s Halle version (coarse and weak were the discriptors used). Other examples include a review of the complete Ravel Orchestral music, citing the excellence of Martinon's Paris EMI set , Bernstein's Mahler 3rd with the NYPO (apart from a CBS pressing error) was praised, as was Levine's Chicago version of the same work (top recommendation). Karajan's Mahler 5th, and his collection of Second Viennese School, Reiner's Scherazade, Bernstein's NYPO Sibelius 1, Szell's Concertgebouw Sibelius 2 - all cited as top performances. So my question is what went wrong with British critics later on?

[@allthisuselessbeauty-kr7]

@@karldelavigne8134 I have to be honest I haven't listened to it for many years - is it really that bad now? It used to be an essential Saturday morning ritual for me, before I'd wend my way to my favourite independent record shop (long since gone). Again it use to be very good - I have a recording I did for time shifting purposes of Michael Oliver reviewing the best versions of the Shostakovich 5 (he chose Previn's early LSO version); erudite, informative - a fantastic review. So what went wrong?!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Where to begin--of course Penguin got it right sometimes, and it's dangerous to generalize about "British criticism"--all such blanket judgments are bound to be mistaken as often as not. They are useful merely to (a) have some fun and (b) point up contrasting trends or tendencies. That said, the reason Penguin had a better batting average in my opinion was that there were so many fewer recordings of the basic repertoire, and so it was possible to talk about the discography with knowledge and appeal to a genuine critical consensus in many important works. Now, it's impossible to keep track of the volume of recordings and it's a lifetime of work even to make sensible comparisons of even one. So most critics have no idea what they are talking about. It only works for me, if it works, because I've been doing this for such a long time and have a pretty reliable memory for individual performance details, but even then I often feel at sea. Look what happens here: even if I talk about a dozen or more versions of something, viewers chime in with titles I've left out, many very good and deserving of inclusion. What what can I or anyone do about it? It's an impossible situation.

[@allthisuselessbeauty-kr7]

@@DavesClassicalGuide yeah it's a fair point around the number of recordings of core repertoire being far less then (for instance in Mahler 9 they looked at only five, against the frightening number you had. Even Beethoven's 9th was a compartively svelte ten for comparison). To me perhaps that says something about what happened to the music industry (industry being the key word, primarily about selling product) beginning in the early Eighties. Digital recording, or more particularly the coming of compact disc, encouraged record companies to offer the opportunity for anyone that could wave a stick at an orchestra, to record another new Beethoven cycle on the new improved format, whether an artist was particularly suited or not. Add into the mix the rise of the period performance movement, then the reissue of old material and we ended up with a multitude of options around basic repertoire which is increasingly difficult to navigate. Yes - it's an impossible task proving a reviewers' lot is often a difficult one!

[@mickeytheviewmoo]

The only version I have is Slatkin's RCA version. I remember it was on a black cover. I think i played it once or twice and put in a box somewhere. Not because of the interpretation, purely because I don't like Elgar's symphonies.

[@williamwhittle216]

Just bought the Slatkin box. Thanks for the recommendation!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Hope you enjoy it!

[@bolemirnoc604]

The Tate/EMI outmatches the climax of rondo even in Slatkin/RCA, it's really thundering and overwhelming the whole orchestra. But the whole recording is not very coherent and the tempi are mostly on the Sinopoli side. My favourite is Previn/Philips but for the Larghetto nobody can surpass Haitink.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Actually, yes, most people can surpass Haitink, at least in that work. The Previn is an excellent performance though--a pity his First isn't so good.

[@bolemirnoc604]

But the Previn also let the rondo climax diminish too early. :D But overall very exciting. I feel the same about his Elgar 1, pity he did not record it with LSO as well. For example the RPO horns are too dominant, quite irritating sometimes.

[@joewebb1983]

@@DavesClassicalGuide and there was me thinking you preferred his Elgar 1 to his Elgar 2 (www.classicstoday.com/review/review-6361/). Personally I think Previn's Elgar is pretty good on the whole.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@joewebb1983 I switch periodically, but you're right--it's generally very good all around so it depends on my mood and how nitpicky I want to get.

[@alexleach6307]

Actually the Tate is my favourite out of the recordings I have (Elgar, Barbirolli x 2, Boult I & V, Gibson, Menuhin, Sinopoli, Slatkin, Handley, Haitink, Gardner, Thomson, Previn, Barenboim x 2, C Davis II, Oramo, Ashkenazy, A Davis x 2) - it is one of my favourites... Other very good ones are Boult I, Solti and Previn. Sinopoli is just too slow (though he is superb in No. 1) and while Tate's timing is slower than most the strong pulse and commitment of the playing mean that it never sounds slow - it just carries you forward. Thomson is highly regarded but he seems too measured to me (though his version of VW's London symphony is superb so go for that instead...)

[@barryguerrero7652]

Mackerras for me! Can't say I know the Slatkin E2.

[@smudger671]

Agreed - Mackerras is pretty good and not too dissimilar to Solti.

[@williamwhittle216]

This symphony has always been hard for me to get into, The first less so. 👺

[@kend.6797]

Same here. But the Mackerras recording I have had my eye on recently, so I might have to take another stab at this work.

[@allthisuselessbeauty-kr7]

I'm frankly disappointed you've gone to so much effort on such musical ephemera as this! Let's get back to the real meat and potatoes, critique another really substantial piece of Elgar - say his Follow the Colours - that would be something! Actually as distasteful as it is to mention it, I have the Davis recording of this symphony you mentioned, coupled to another symphony of his or something. Honestly I use to prop up a wobbly bookcase. PS I've heard Elgar wrote some sort of Cello Concerto? If so I'd steer clear of it

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I shall! I appreciate the advice since I hadn't heard of it before now.

[@allthisuselessbeauty-kr7]

@@DavesClassicalGuide you're welcome!

[@raymondcox789]

Musical ephemera? Elgar is England's greatest composer and he wrote the two greatest English symphonies. They are well-constucted, sincere and extremely moving.

[@ThreadBomb]

@@raymondcox789 They are just joking.

[@onnoalink6694]

A very splendid analysis, as always, but it seems that David Hurwitz doesn't know much about Elgar's private life. Elgar was a very romantic soul and was in love with several women, also during his marriage. The sudden surge of inspiration and composing in the last three years of his life came from a love affair with a woman 40 years his junior - Just like Leos Janacek had 10 years earlier. The image many people have of Elgar, the retired British colonel, stiff upper lip, no sexual innuendo, couldn't be more wrong. David should watch the documentary "The Man Behind The Mask". And I disagree with David that No 2 is a minor work, or is this David's irony? It is one of the great 20th century symphonies and for the keen listener also the most ideal work where one can find traces of Elgar's bipolarity. By the way: Boult 1976 and Andrew Davis for me!! :-)

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

(a) I know all about his love life. (b) It's irony (do I really need to explain that?).

[@onnoalink6694]

@@DavesClassicalGuide You could explain b to the members of the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, when they sabotaged a performance of E2 when André Previn conducted it here. First time the E2 was on the performed by the RCO. They thought Elgar was just pompous Victorian shit. Horrible performance. Previn told me afterwards "they didn't want to play the piece!". He never returned to the RCO.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@onnoalink6694 The fact that Elgar has an active sex life doesn't meant that the music isn't pompous Victorian shit.... If course, some of us LOVE our pompous Victorian shit, and wouldn't have our shit any way other than pompous and Victorian. They may have just hated Previn too. You never know. I like it when orchestras rebel. I saw the Boston Symphony destroy Haitink in Mahler 9. It was a torture to listen to, but also quite entertaining in its way. They were PISSED.

[@patrickhows1482]

@@DavesClassicalGuide The Concertgebouw were the one orchestra who didn't fall under the spell of Rattle during his wunderkind years in the 80s, they were distinctly unimpressed by Rattle.

[@isabellevignola1379]

Petrenko is pretty good too!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

So-so, I think.

[@isabellevignola1379]

David Hurwitz Hi David, I hope a review of Shostakovich's eighth is due soon!

[@frgraybean]

I agree about the Colin Davis on LSO Live. Like their 1st as well. They play the hell out of them! Solti...yes. Downes...yes. Slatkin is great, too! A wonderful conductor who is sometimes unfairly ignored, IMO. I also enjoy the Barbirolli despite the orchestra. A sentimental choice for me...the first record I heard of it. But yes. MAKERRAS was a genius! The best. As an aside, SLATKIN did some great Haydn in London.

[@neilford99]

This is on Qobuz as the "blurb" to Slatkins Elgar boxed set. What a load of pompous crap. Quote: "While no one would put Leonard Slatkin's recordings of the orchestral works of Edward Elgar in the same exalted league as the recordings of Barbirolli or Boult -- recordings that stand among the greatest of anything ever recorded -- no one would dispute that Slatkin's recordings are nevertheless among the best recordings of the works in the past 20 years." David, keep slaying dragons and knocking down shibboleths.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Oh dear!

[@melodymaker135]

😂😂😂

[@stuartclarke4683]

I find the first movement of this symphony incoherent and about 10 minutes too long, whoever plays it!

[@HughFromAlice]

That's interesting, because the more that I listen to the first movement the more choate I feel it is :-) It seems to me that the epithet 'The man behind the mask' sits well for both the man and his music.

[@smudger671]

I take it you don't like Elgar.