Repertoire: The BEST and WORST Varèse Amériques

Рет қаралды 4,326

The Ultimate Classical Music Guide by Dave Hurwitz

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 42

@marknewkirk4322 Ай бұрын

Once back in the early 1980s, when I was not quite 20 years old, I went to a Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra concert. Michael Gielen was the conductor in those days. They ended the concert with Tchaikovsky's Pathetique, which was not exactly the kind of thing Gielen was known for. They played it quite well nonetheless, and idiomatically. But before intermission, they played Ameriques (the sort of thing Gielen WAS known for). The performance was absolutely over the top. They made sounds, especially in the bass section, that I had never imagined an orchestra could produce. Unfortunately, as is often the case even on recordings, the sirens, instead of sounding menacing or otherworldly or anything else that would have made sense, just sounded comical, puny, like a bad joke. The tonal quality was like those birthday party party blowers, you know, the kind with an inflatable coil of paper that unrolls when you blow it. Any chance at impressing a desperately old, conservative audience was ruined by that (although I doubt they would have enjoyed it regardless). The performance got a standing ovation in the sense that people stood up so their shouts of "BOOO" would be louder and so everyone could see who was doing the booing. In a way, it was thrilling to be in the midst of a crowd that had been stirred up to that degree of hostility. I applauded politely and wondered to myself how much worse the scandals around Stravinsky and Schoenberg had been in reality back between 1908 and 1913. It was a memorable evening.

@wxy484 Ай бұрын

Ah, so you were there? I grew up in Cincinnati and had teachers from the orchestra who would tell stories about the Gielen era, if you asked them as if you were REALLY interested. I was, and tales were told about their performance of Ameriques--one of several scandals of that time. Cincinnati just wasn't ready for him after the glamour era of Thomas Schippers, which was a shame. However, the CSO recorded Ameriques with Louis Langree a few years ago. Wonder what Mr. Hurwitz thinks of the other major Ohio band taking it on in recorded form.

@marknewkirk4322 Ай бұрын

@@wxy484 Yes, I was there. I was studying violin with Henry Meyer of the LaSalle Quartet and conducting with Teri Murai, but I knew a few of the CSO players of that time, many of whom are no longer living. I can't (unfortunately) say I was close to any of them personally. But I had subscription tickets to at least one series for several years. Lots of good concerts, and some less good. Few as memorable as Ameriques.

@kestrel4733 Ай бұрын

I HIGHLY suggest that everyone go and listen to the Abravenel/Utah recording on your streaming service or through KZbin! Not to hear the Abravenel recording of Ameriques, which is excellent of course, but because through some mix up on the end of Vanguard Classics the entire disc’s contents of hardcore Varese and Honegger have been swapped out for these adorable little Percy Grainger piano miniatures including “Spoon River”. It remains one of my favorite discoveries perusing classical music on streaming services, looking for a new recording of the Varese, clicking on the Abravenel and instead getting this little 2 minute, charming English folk tune on piano instead. Talk about musical whiplash!

@kingconcerto5860 Ай бұрын

I can confirm this is still the case on Spotify on 10/05/24.

@ericnagamine7742 Ай бұрын

I can confirm that the live Dohnanyi at Carnegie was mind blowing.

@charlescoleman5509 Ай бұрын

I saw Dohnányi and Cleveland do Amérique at Tanglewood. I sat in the 7th row with my dad. Amazing performance. I got the recording immediately when it came out later that year.

@robertslagle7176 Ай бұрын

Abravanel was a wonderful conductor. Ha did a number of 20th century thing on Vanguard that the larger record companies would not touch at the time. The classical production team at Vanguard was wonderful..

@dmntuba Ай бұрын

Some fantastic recordings, but the Utah recording will always have a special place in my heart.

@davidmayhew8083 Ай бұрын

I once heard this from my radio with SFO and Ozawa. At the end, right after the last note, someone in the audience YELLED "NOOOO"!!! I was taken back. It was a very good performance.

@pawdaw Ай бұрын

I was involved in a performance of Amériques - the original version with steamboat whistle, off-stage brass, all of it. The siren hadn't arrived for the first rehearsal, so Percussionist 7 decided to add in the part vocally. The conductor didn't even notice the actual siren wasn't there - and just looked up and asked that the siren be louder.

@jackdahlquist2977 Ай бұрын

I'm glad that the existence of an earlier version was noted. Several years ago, I was bitterly disappointed that Louis Langree chose to perform the earlier version with the Cincinnati Symphony. I would have found the earlier version acceptable if it hadn't turned out to be so ridiculously inferior to the later version. Caveat emptor.

@johnwright7557 Ай бұрын

I can only agree the Dohnanyi disc is one of the greatest ever for both the Ives and the Varese. I also have the Chailly set, but rarely listen to it.

@steveschwartz8944 Ай бұрын

Never thought about it, but I seem to have collected a lot of Ameriques. My first was Abravanel when it came out on LP. The piece instantly became a favorite. I can understand the a lukewarm response to the Chailly, although I'm happy to have the earlier version, the other performances are quite fine. But the Dohnanyi is a l so my first choice. The Ives coupling is just as good.

@1-JBL Ай бұрын

The first time I ever HEARD AMERIQUES was on that Abravanel/Utah LP, which also introduced me to Honegger's PACIFIC 231 and brought me the third Milhaud I ever heard, L'HOMME ET SON DESIR. Got it out of the Kanawha County Public Library in Charleston West Virginia, which back in that day had an AMAZING collection of LPs. I've never heard that Kocsis recording -- didn't even know it existed. And I feel like both Chailly and Boulez are too mushy/spongy in the apocalyptically shambling quasi-march that concludes the thing -- but I suspect I've only ever heard the Chicago Boulez.

@HassoBenSoba Ай бұрын

In '72, I saved my pennies to buy the Robert Craft/Sony 2-LP set "The Varese Album", which included ARCANA, but unfortunately not Ameriques. So I bought the Abravanel LP as a supplement and enjoyed it for the reasons which you state. I heard Boulez do Ameriques with Chicago late in his career (when he recorded it); it was good, not great. I spoke afterwards with a couple of the extra percussionists, who were disappointed in Boulez's lack of "fire" and rather casual, imprecise approach to the music, especially "Ionisation", which was also on the program. He just didn't seem very involved. I DO remember, however, hearing an NY Phil broadcast (c. '74) of one of Boulez's "Carpet" Concerts (or whatever they called), with an audience of post-hippies (chemically-enhanced, no doubt) who went absolutely BONKERS at the end. This would have been the concert series after which he made his excellent Sony recording. LR

@waynesmith3767 Ай бұрын

I heard that same performance and had thought Boulez would do a just amazingly good performance, especially since the piece is well suited to the CSO; I was disappointed.

@FREDGARRISON Ай бұрын

I heard Abravenel and Utah Symphony do this on the radio when it was first released. My first reaction was WHAT THE HELL IS THIS? The more I listened the more I got into it. Soon after I purchased the Vanguard LP. It was only natural to get the CD version when it came out. This has been my favorite performance ever since. Will check out the Dohnanyi/Cleveland version when it becomes available again. It seemed to have disappeared right after it was released, SHAME ON DECCA !!! Also have the complete Varese with Chailly and Concertgebouw as Dave mentioned. I agree with Dave, the performance just isn't the same in the original version. Another good one, Dave....

@johnmarchington3146 Ай бұрын

I have three of the recordings you mentioned, David: the Chailly, the Tilson Thomas and the Abravanel. However I can well imagine the Dohnanyi being outstanding as I've always admired his conducting of contemporary music. (I love, for example, his recording of the Schoenberg Five Pieces for Orchestra)

@kingconcerto5860 Ай бұрын

Do you have any other specific Dohnanyi recordings of contemporary pieces you're particularly fond of? I've been looking for recordings like this, I'm on a kick of "pure sonic armageddon" music lately (Scriabin Poem of Ecstasy, Stravinsky Rite of Spring, Nielsen Symphony #4, Petterson Symphony #7, Prokofiev Symphony #5 + Scythian Suite, Scriabin Symphony #3, Vaughan Williams Symphony #4, etc). I have a pretty extensive listening queue on the go already, but if you have any more recommendations similar to the pieces I listed, I'd be eager to add them to my listening queue also.

@johnmarchington3146 Ай бұрын

@@kingconcerto5860 Sorry I haven't been able to find others so far. The Schoenberg Five Pieces (with the Cleveland Orchestra) is part of a 'Double-Decca' compilation with Dohnanyi also conducting the Vienna Philharmonic in Schoenberg's vocal muisc (Erwartung and the the Six Orchestral Songs with Anja Silja) and the rest of the set is conducted by Zubin Mehta.

@brianburtt7053 Ай бұрын

News of the release of the Dohnànyi box may have made my week. Looking on Amazon....too bad they didn't find a way to get the Telarc Beethoven and EMI Brahms. Oh well, it's still (quite) something.

@DavesClassicalGuide Ай бұрын

Brahms was Teldec, not EMI.

@brianburtt7053 Ай бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for the correction. I'm getting old and forgetful.

@robkeeleycomposer Ай бұрын

Your eyes (unsurprisingly) light up when you talk about ‘buckets of percussion’! I guess the Naxos version doesn’t cut the mustard?

@DavesClassicalGuide Ай бұрын

It’s very good, actually.

@robkeeleycomposer Ай бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuideThankyou Dave.

@ondrejsedo8659 Ай бұрын

One moment near the middle of Amériques sounds like quote from scherzo of Mahler 7th.

@DavesClassicalGuide Ай бұрын

Yes, it's pretty direct.

@kingconcerto5860 Ай бұрын

I've been trying for the life of me to find this Dohnanyi album with the Ameriques + Ives #4 coupling. Can't seem to purchase it digitally, and the only physical copies I can find are expensive used copies on Amazon. Does anyone have any idea where I can purchase a NEW copy of this album (or even just the Ameriques recording specifically); either digital or physical copy? Is there some obscure Dohnanyi box set that anyone knows about containing this Ameriques recording?

@DavesClassicalGuide Ай бұрын

There's a box coming in October.

@williamfarr8807 Ай бұрын

I have heard (and seen short video clips) that Frank Zappa conducted and recorded the complete music of Varèse (with the Ensemble Modern I believe) a year or two before he died. Unfortunately, the Zappa Family Trust seems to be reluctant to touch or release these recordings, or any of Zappa’s classical/orchestral music, for some reason.

@Warp75 Ай бұрын

I sure they will be released at some point

@williamfarr8807 Ай бұрын

@@Warp75 Yes, at some point they probably will but, it’s been over 30 years. I saw an interview with one of his sons a few years ago, and when he was asked about his father’s orchestral music, he said something to the effect that, he did not feel qualified or confident in evaluating his father’s classical music and kind of stayed away from it. It’s kind of a shame for that part of his legacy to be ignored.

@JK-rt2jj Ай бұрын

I happen to have that Kozsis/BMC CD and love it. Everything falls into place: a sharp conductor, a powerful orchestra and also the recording is uniquely powerful. It’s not too loud or edgy though. Anyone who knows which other BMC and/or Kozsis recordings are worth having?

@kingconcerto5860 Ай бұрын

I'm a huge fan of Kocsis as a pianist, I don't know his work as a conductor as well. That being said, his recording of the Rachmaninov Piano Sonata #2 is essential IMO, and I think the Liszt piano concerti recordings with Budapest + Ivan Fischer are worth hearing as well.